Golden Sun Class Tier List

[Life]

I'm on the fence about Samurai being in Chuck Norris.

The problem is that Samurai wouldn't have access to EPAs when it's available. That means that we're relying on Unleashes (I can do the math to figure out the average damage but it's inconsistant) and Magical Psynergy (I really hope that I don't have to explain why this isn't great for Samurai).

[Suichimo]

No, you're going to have to explain why it isn't great for Samurai but its apparently awesome for the mono-element magic using Page and Apprentice. Samurai has a good 140% PP base. Gets slightly weaker, and cheaper, variations of the Volcano and Gaia series. It has its own versions of the Impact, Guard, and Resist series of Psynergy to help buff the group. It has the highest HP in the game, second highest attack, great Defense and Agility, with only a slightly poor Luck.

How is this not one of the best classes in the game?

Also, what the hell is Cavalier Mia doing in Batman tier? She sucks up 6 Mars Djinni just to get there. Not worth giving up things like Ninja Isaac to get there.

[Kriemhild]

Pretty much what Suichimo said. Samurai also seem to have the highest Defense in the game too. I don't think Luck should even be considered here.

Also, Cavalier!Mia shouldn't be so high. In fact, I don't think any of the incomplete classes should be in Batman tier. Shaman!Isaac might seem awesome but you're essentially using 6 Djinn for a class that gives the exact same stats and Psynergy to Ivan/Mia who only need 4 Djinn to achieve the exact same results. And once you actually HAVE 6 Djinn (Gondowan), I highly doubt Isaac would ever go Shaman. Definitely not in the Colosso, at least.

[Life]

No, you're going to have to explain why it isn't great for Samurai but its apparently awesome for the mono-element magic using Page and Apprentice. Samurai has a good 140% PP base. Gets slightly weaker, and cheaper, variations of the Volcano and Gaia series. It has its own versions of the Impact, Guard, and Resist series of Psynergy to help buff the group. It has the highest HP in the game, second highest attack, great Defense and Agility, with only a slightly poor Luck.

Ok, here's the full analysis.

Apprentice/Page is incredibly useful throughout the entire game. We get it as early as Bilibin and it starts rocking from that second on. Kolima Forest/Tret Tree is a joke thanks to earlygame Gaia (40 Dam) for Apprentice!Isaac or Volcano (45 Dam) for Page!Garet. Now Garet could switch to Ruffian and use Blast (40 Dam) instead but his problem is PP usage. Ruffian has a 80% PP class bonus while Page has 120%. Once you get the 2nd Jupiter Djinni, Illusionist boosts that up to 130%. That's a giant advantage for Illusionist!Garet especially when you look at the math.

Lv. 1 Garet has 20 PP as a base. He gains about 2.9 PP per level meaning that he has about a 40 PP base at level 8 (7 levels * 2.9 PP per level). Ruffian knocks that down to 36 PP (40 Base * 0.8 + 4 PP from Flint) while Illusionist has 57 (40 Base * 1.3 + 5 PP from Breeze). Blast (Nova) costs 7 PP for 40 Dam which means that Garet gets 5 of these in a single battle. Volcano is 8 PP for 45 Dam. That's 7 rounds of doing more damage (about 8~10 more after all the calculations). Sure Blast hits more guys but it doesn't really matter since Isaac and Ivan only have multiple target Psynergy attacks.

This is just right away. I could go into specific examples farther into the game but I'm busy watching football. So I'm just going to skip to when we get Samurai.

We get our 25th Djinni in Suhalla Gate, making that the earliest time possible that Samurai is available. That's about level 26 or so. So we're comparing Enchanter!Isaac to Samurai!Isaac.

Enchanter!Isaac has some pretty good class bonuses at this time. 140% HP, PP and Agi, 130% Att and 120% Def. It's nothing on the stupidly high bonuses that Samurai!Isaac has (190% HP, 150% Att, 140% Def and Agi and 130% PP) but what it lacks in non endgame bonuses, Enchanter!Isaac makes up in Psynergy and Elemental Levels.

Enchanter!Isaac has about 102 Wind Power and 114 Earth Power. He's got Mother Gaia (100 Dam), Astral Blast (an EPA with a 32 Add Mod) and useful stuff like Sleep (situational but can be useful), Impact series, Ward series and Weaken series. The only thing he's missing is healing since he's got a very balanced spread of Psynergy and stats.

Samurai!Isaac is significantly weaker when it comes to Psynergy. He's got 104 Earth Power, 96 Fire Power and 92 Wind Power. He's got Rockslide (90 Dam) to do Magical damage with but the problem is that it has 10 less Dam than Mother Gaia AND he's got 10 less Earth Power. He can use Angel Spear... but so can Enchanter!Isaac with High Impact. There's also Protector but enemies around Venus Lighthouse and Babi Lighthouse use magic instead of physical attacks. He can use Magic Shield at level 27 but once again, so can Enchanter!Isaac with Resist. Other damage moves include Dragon Cloud and Demon Night but neither of these moves are EPAs.

Enchanter!Garet is a very similar story. In fact, he's almost exactly the same as Samurai!Garet in the psynergy department. Enchanter!Garet gets the Impact, Ward, Weaken... AND Protect series. Eruption is 90 Dam but he's still got an elemental level lead and possible Dam lead too since Samurai!Garet probably does better damage with the 70 Dam Molten Bath (Fire based) rather than Rockslide.

I'm not seeing it. What can Samurai do at this point that Apprentice/Page can't do? Unleashes aren't consistent enough to rely on. EPAs don't exist yet for Samurai. Apprentice/Page has been helping out for the entire game and matches some key stats with Samurai without even being in its final class (PP and Agi are key in this game with the others being good but not make-or-break). So why does Samurai deserve Chuck Norris class?

[Suichimo]

Ok, here's the full analysis.

Apprentice/Page is incredibly useful throughout the entire game. We get it as early as Bilibin and it starts rocking from that second on. Kolima Forest/Tret Tree is a joke thanks to earlygame Gaia (40 Dam) for Apprentice!Isaac or Volcano (45 Dam) for Page!Garet. Now Garet could switch to Ruffian and use Blast (40 Dam) instead but his problem is PP usage. Ruffian has a 80% PP class bonus while Page has 120%. Once you get the 2nd Jupiter Djinni, Illusionist boosts that up to 130%. That's a giant advantage for Illusionist!Garet especially when you look at the math.

Lv. 1 Garet has 20 PP as a base. He gains about 2.9 PP per level meaning that he has about a 40 PP base at level 8 (7 levels * 2.9 PP per level). Ruffian knocks that down to 36 PP (40 Base * 0.8 + 4 PP from Flint) while Illusionist has 57 (40 Base * 1.3 + 5 PP from Breeze). Blast (Nova) costs 7 PP for 40 Dam which means that Garet gets 5 of these in a single battle. Volcano is 8 PP for 45 Dam. That's 7 rounds of doing more damage (about 8~10 more after all the calculations). Sure Blast hits more guys but it doesn't really matter since Isaac and Ivan only have multiple target Psynergy attacks.

This is just right away. I could go into specific examples farther into the game but I'm busy watching football. So I'm just going to skip to when we get Samurai.

We get our 25th Djinni in Suhalla Gate, making that the earliest time possible that Samurai is available. That's about level 26 or so. So we're comparing Enchanter!Isaac to Samurai!Isaac.

Enchanter!Isaac has some pretty good class bonuses at this time. 140% HP, PP and Agi, 130% Att and 120% Def. It's nothing on the stupidly high bonuses that Samurai!Isaac has (190% HP, 150% Att, 140% Def and Agi and 130% PP) but what it lacks in non endgame bonuses, Enchanter!Isaac makes up in Psynergy and Elemental Levels.

Enchanter!Isaac has about 102 Wind Power and 114 Earth Power. He's got Mother Gaia (100 Dam), Astral Blast (an EPA with a 32 Add Mod) and useful stuff like Sleep (situational but can be useful), Impact series, Ward series and Weaken series. The only thing he's missing is healing since he's got a very balanced spread of Psynergy and stats.

Samurai!Isaac is significantly weaker when it comes to Psynergy. He's got 104 Earth Power, 96 Fire Power and 92 Wind Power. He's got Rockslide (90 Dam) to do Magical damage with but the problem is that it has 10 less Dam than Mother Gaia AND he's got 10 less Earth Power. He can use Angel Spear... but so can Enchanter!Isaac with High Impact. There's also Protector but enemies around Venus Lighthouse and Babi Lighthouse use magic instead of physical attacks. He can use Magic Shield at level 27 but once again, so can Enchanter!Isaac with Resist. Other damage moves include Dragon Cloud and Demon Night but neither of these moves are EPAs.

Enchanter!Garet is a very similar story. In fact, he's almost exactly the same as Samurai!Garet in the psynergy department. Enchanter!Garet gets the Impact, Ward, Weaken... AND Protect series. Eruption is 90 Dam but he's still got an elemental level lead and possible Dam lead too since Samurai!Garet probably does better damage with the 70 Dam Molten Bath (Fire based) rather than Rockslide.

I'm not seeing it. What can Samurai do at this point that Apprentice/Page can't do? Unleashes aren't consistent enough to rely on. EPAs don't exist yet for Samurai. Apprentice/Page has been helping out for the entire game and matches some key stats with Samurai without even being in its final class (PP and Agi are key in this game with the others being good but not make-or-break). So why does Samurai deserve Chuck Norris class?

First off, once you hit 21 Djinni, Isaac is taking 3 Mars and 3 Jupiter Djinni, going Ninja, and never looking back. This is also why Garet will never be getting above Enchanter, the Jupiter Djinni that he needs for it are going to Isaac so he can become a complete beast. Garet will be wanting Samurai though.

I already mentioned that the Psynergy that the Samurai got were weaker than the actual Psynergy they are imitating, the Gaia and Volcano series. They are cheaper though. Also, Samurai gets both so it can cover both Mars weak enemies and Venus weak enemies with relatively the same effectiveness. If he needs that extra kick in Mars damage, against a single target, he can switch over to the even cheaper Dragon Cloud.

You already know my opinion on Status inducing Psynergy.

The huge stats are also more important than you may think. The stat raising psynergy work based on percentages. So the higher your base, the more bonus you get from it. Also, I'd imagine that the Enchanter's Astral Blast will be beaten in damage from a Samurai attack thanks to the 20% difference. Then, of course, there is the absolutely huge 50% HP lead that the Samurai has over the Enchanter.

Now we circle back around to your early game example. Tret does find use for Garet and Isaac being in Page/Apprentic. Then they move to Swordsmen for Saturos, and they are probably Brutes through most of Mercury Lighthouse. Obviously they'll want to go right back to the Brute line for the next couple of dungeons as well because they are both Mars-weak. Then its straight back to the Swordsmen class for them. So up through, at least, the Lamakan Desert, you won't really be using the Page/Apprentice sets.

Edit: Made an error and thought, for some unknown reason, that Planet Diver was used in Tret... my bad.

Edited September 20, 2010 by Suichimo

[Narga_Rocks]

First off, once you hit 21 Djinni, Isaac is taking 3 Mars and 3 Jupiter Djinni, going Ninja, and never looking back. This is also why Garet will never be getting above Enchanter, the Jupiter Djinni that he needs for it are going to Isaac so he can become a complete beast. Garet will be wanting Samurai though.

I already mentioned that the Psynergy that the Samurai got were weaker than the actual Psynergy they are imitating, the Gaia and Volcano series. They are cheaper though. Also, Samurai gets both so it can cover both Mars weak enemies and Venus weak enemies with relatively the same effectiveness. If he needs that extra kick in Mars damage, against a single target, he can switch over to the even cheaper Dragon Cloud.

You already know my opinion on Status inducing Psynergy.

The huge stats are also more important than you may think. The stat raising psynergy work based on percentages. So the higher your base, the more bonus you get from it. Also, I'd imagine that the Enchanter's Astral Blast will be beaten in damage from a Samurai attack thanks to the 20% difference. Then, of course, there is the absolutely huge 50% HP lead that the Samurai has over the Enchanter.

Now we circle back around to your early game example. Why are you using the Illusionist in Tret? Isaac and Garet should be Brutes so they can spam Planet Diver. Then they move to Swordsmen for Saturos, and they probably stayed Brutes through most of Mercury Lighthouse. Obviously they'll want to go right back to the Brute line for the next couple of dungeons as well because they are both Mars-weak. Then its straight back to the Swordsmen class for them. So up through, at least, the Lamakan Desert, you won't really be using the Page/Apprentice sets.

Unless you are grinding, you will NOT have Planet Diver for Tret.

Of course, in Tret I just spammed djinni releases and/or summons to get through. If you can one shot pretty much everything and go before...Let's just say I did very little healing there.

Same with Mercury Lighthouse, actually. You are not getting planet diver. I finished at 11/10/10/11, so in fact I only had Cutting Edge on Isaac. Isaac levels faster than Garet with the same exp totals, for some reason. It's like a 400 exp difference to reach level 11. No clue why. They gave all 4 different exp amounts for levels but didn't bother to make an in-game explanation for why. I suppose it's not too different from FF4 in that respect, actually.

I have to admit, though, I haven't been sticking wind on Issac/Garet very frequently. I haven't even Astral Blow'd anything yet in my second playthrough and I'm about to go to the desert. Actually, I can't remember what class I used against Quartz or why I didn't use Astral Blow, but whatever. I find most of the time walking around my set up tends to be like this:

with three djinni each

Isaac: Flint + fire djinni. Release Flint on turn 1 in just about every battle. OHKO something. Then attack physically anything that made it to round 2 since there is no point spending PP. If enough enemies reached round 2, summon venus.

Garet: Fever + earth djinni. See Isaac, only replace Flint with Fever and Venus with Mars.

Ivan: Gust + water djinni.

Mia: do I even need to say? Sleet is the release of choice. Sometimes Fizz, though, if someone needs healing. Trade between Mia and Ivan to get Fizz to her.

With two each, Issac and Garet are the same, Ivan has both waters and Mia has both winds. Mia is way too slow with both waters so they release djinni that aren't their best element. Oh well, at least they are in a 2 djinni class when they do it.

obviously, I do that with Garet and Mia to prevent them being molasses. Which I think is perfectly reasonable. Now, since I can frequently reach the boss having used very little pp and am normally at full hp, it seems like it works, right? But I wouldn't really credit the Brute class for this at all since it is all about the releases. I could just keep every guy with their main djinni if it wasn't for their speed. If I had two elven shirts, though...

Back when I only had Isaac, Garet, and Ivan, I think what I mainly did was have Isaac use Flint while the others summoned, or something like that. Same idea. Frankly, I don't know quite why Life is making such a big deal out of Gaia or any of those other spells. I saw little point in ever using them. I only use Plasma or something when there is a large number of enemies and I think using the spell will allow me to 1 turn the random battle. Otherwise, release on turn 1, summon on turn 2. There is no turn 3. Oh, and I say Flint for top tier. I know it's not a class, but Flint lets Isaac OHKO nearly every random enemy, even most of the earth strong ones. Keep him with the strongest weapon and let Flint have at it.

Anyway, I'm at a crossroads now that I have 13 total djinn. I mean, the plan has been working so far so why stop now? But I could stick 4 waters on Isaac or Garet to get ply + wish if I wanted. Or give Mia the Elven Shirt and let her have them.

[Suichimo]

Huh, for some reason I was thinking they were using Planet Diver for Tret in the Let's Play. Ok, I was off there. So Page has a point where it really does have use. My point stands for the others though.

[Life]

First off, once you hit 21 Djinni, Isaac is taking 3 Mars and 3 Jupiter Djinni, going Ninja, and never looking back. This is also why Garet will never be getting above Enchanter, the Jupiter Djinni that he needs for it are going to Isaac so he can become a complete beast. Garet will be wanting Samurai though.

You can't treat the list like this. This is like saying that someone like... Nephenee in FE10 won't be fielded because there are always better units than her. With that logic, Nephenee should be in useless tier after 2-E is over.

That's the exact same logic you're using here. We are talking about hypothetical situations here. Just because you usually use Ninja!Isaac the second it is available and he shitstomps everything in front of him does not guarantee that those Jupiter Djinni are locked to him. If we are comparing Samurai to Apprentice/Page, don't start talking about Ninja being better than Apprentice/Page and immediately ruling out that option. Otherwise the list would be split up into a "use" tier and a "don't use" tier. And most of the classes in the "don't use" will simply be there because "Isaac is taking 3 Mars and 3 Jupiter Djinni, going Ninja, and never looking back".

Apparently in your mind, if a class isn't as good as Ninja, it automatically sucks. And I'm saying that 1) this is wrong since Ninja might not necessarily be the best class depending on the situation and 2) that Ninja's existence shouldn't be affecting how good another class is. Clearly you think differently but it's incorrect logic in this case.

I already mentioned that the Psynergy that the Samurai got were weaker than the actual Psynergy they are imitating, the Gaia and Volcano series. They are cheaper though. Also, Samurai gets both so it can cover both Mars weak enemies and Venus weak enemies with relatively the same effectiveness. If he needs that extra kick in Mars damage, against a single target, he can switch over to the even cheaper Dragon Cloud.

So they cost 2 PP less at this late in the game. Not that big of a deal now.

As for Samurai covering both Fire and Earth weak enemies, please give me an exact name for which enemies that a Samurai's Magical Psynergy is better than Apprentice/Page. I will then do the math and see who's right. And don't forget about Astral Blast for Apprentice/Page.

The huge stats are also more important than you may think. The stat raising psynergy work based on percentages. So the higher your base, the more bonus you get from it. Also, I'd imagine that the Enchanter's Astral Blast will be beaten in damage from a Samurai attack thanks to the 20% difference. Then, of course, there is the absolutely huge 50% HP lead that the Samurai has over the Enchanter.

Ok, let's try it out.

Level 26 Isaac has ~108 base Att. The Dragon Axe (found in Lunpa) has 100 Att but that gets added after the class bonuses.

Enchanter!Isaac has a 130% Att class bonus which gives him 140 Att. Tack on an extra 17 Att from Sap, Bane, Gust, Smog and Squall and 100 from the Dragon Axe to make that 257 Att. He's also got 102 Wind Power. Samurai!Isaac has a 150% Att class bonus which gives him 162 Att. Tack on an extra 18 Att from Gust, Smog, Squall, Forge, Fever and Scorch to make that 280 Att along with 96 Fire Power. So Samurai!Isaac has a 23 Att lead. Hardly commanding.

Let's now look at an enemy from Venus Lighthouse like a Goblin... oh wait, it's Wind weak! That's not fair... Then how about an Earth Golem... oh shit, that's Wind weak too. In fact, Enchanter!Isaac has weakness attacks on most of the enemies that mill around Venus Lighthouse and Babi Lighthouse. Might as well take a Goblin in that case since it's got the closest Fire and Wind Resists.

Earth Golem - 91 Def, 48 Wind Resist, 72 Fire Resist

Enchanter!Isaac casts Astral Blast!

Relative Attack = 257 Att - 91 Def = 166 RA

Relative Power = 102 Wind Power - 48 Wind Resist = 54 RP

Base Damage = 166 RA / 2 = 83 Damage

Revised Damage = 83 Damage + 32 Dam = 115 Damage

Power Multiplier = 1 + 54 RP / 400 = 1.135

Actual Damage = 115 Damage * 1.135 + 0-3 Damage = 130-133 Damage

Samurai!Isaac attacks!

Relative Attack = 280 Att - 91 Def = 189 RA

Base Damage = 189 RA / 2 + 0-3 Damage = 95-98 Damage

Samurai!Isaac's Dragon Axe lets out a howl! Heat Mirage!

Relative Power = 96 Fire Power - 72 Fire Resist = 24 RP

Power Multiplier = 1 + 24 RP / 400 = 1.06

Revised Damage = 95 Damage + 21 Dam = 116 Damage

Actual Damage = 116 Damage * 1.06 + 0-3 Damage = 123-126 Damage

So no, the 20% Att boost that Samurai has over Enchanter doesn't really matter. Partly because Enchanter!Isaac is now at a part of the game where he's destroying enemies left and right thanks to that Wind EPA of his and partly because of Samurai's lowered Elemental Power.

Then we come to HP. Now, I'm of the opinion that 190% boost to HP for the two people who have the highest HP totals is overkill. Just like Sain from FE7 has overkill Str, Samurai is overkill HP. I wouldn't have a problem if it were 180% or even 170% (even though I'd then point out that Conjurer!Isaac also has 170% HP). I'm just saying that too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Samurai should have had a little of its HP bonus knocked off and put back in as better Psynergy at lower levels but eh.

Now we circle back around to your early game example. Why are you using the Illusionist in Tret? Isaac and Garet should be Brutes so they can spam Planet Diver. Then they move to Swordsmen for Saturos, and they probably stayed Brutes through most of Mercury Lighthouse. Obviously they'll want to go right back to the Brute line for the next couple of dungeons as well because they are both Mars-weak. Then its straight back to the Swordsmen class for them. So up through, at least, the Lamakan Desert, you won't really be using the Page/Apprentice sets.

Please go back and play this game. Are you honestly telling me that your party is at level 13 (that's when they get Planet Diver) in Tret Tree? The earliest they get Planet Diver is right before the Killer Ape (I was spamming Planet Diver). And that major PP downgrade that Brute gets is quite a killer.

And even so, Apprentice/Page is constantly being a great class. It's got Impact, an early EPA, great all around stats especially PP and it hits the late game Wind weaknesses. It's very clutch throughout dungeons.

[Narga_Rocks]

Level 26 Isaac has ~108 base Att. The Dragon Axe (found in Lunpa) has 100 Att but that gets added after the class bonuses.

Actually, believe it or not, this is false.

eg: Claymore. 70 att. If I equip it on Ruffian or Cavalier Isaar, I get 91 att out of it. That is to say, if I unequip the thing and then ask what the improvement is when I equip it, I get a number 91 higher.

(Base Stat + Djinni Bonuses + Equip Bonus) * Class Bonus

This is from TFergusson's faq for the first game in the series. I'm not sure if he says it explicitly in his faq for the second one.

it's funny, because even those little +10s or +5s from the djinni itself get multiplied by the class bonus.

Oh, and EPAs don't miss. At least, I don't think they do. Those and djinni releases. Physical attacks on the other hand CAN miss. Which is an advantage to using Astral Blow rather than the physical attack from a Samurai. Now, his faq isn't quite at the level of the guide I use for determining how stuff works in ff5 so I can't tell you how often the physical attack misses and I can't tell you 100% that EPAs never miss, but it is still an important point. Also, using EPAs and djinni releases makes you basically immune to delusion. If you aren't about to miss anyway... And consider that 5 jupiter djinni is not functionally different from 4 of them. So you can release Gust or Smog and still be an Enchanter. And if you release Squall or Gust or Smog when you have 6 you at least remain an Enchanter. Samurai requires you to have 7, and you can never release.

Consider that for a moment: you can't release djinni unless the battle will end that turn. Otherwise you are fighting for some time as something completely different. And releases are awesome since they are free, you can summon the following round, and then you can go back. Ninja has an advantage over Samurai in that you can have one extra djinn for releasing.

[Suichimo]

You can't treat the list like this. This is like saying that someone like... Nephenee in FE10 won't be fielded because there are always better units than her. With that logic, Nephenee should be in useless tier after 2-E is over.

That's the exact same logic you're using here. We are talking about hypothetical situations here. Just because you usually use Ninja!Isaac the second it is available and he shitstomps everything in front of him does not guarantee that those Jupiter Djinni are locked to him. If we are comparing Samurai to Apprentice/Page, don't start talking about Ninja being better than Apprentice/Page and immediately ruling out that option. Otherwise the list would be split up into a "use" tier and a "don't use" tier. And most of the classes in the "don't use" will simply be there because "Isaac is taking 3 Mars and 3 Jupiter Djinni, going Ninja, and never looking back".

Apparently in your mind, if a class isn't as good as Ninja, it automatically sucks. And I'm saying that 1) this is wrong since Ninja might not necessarily be the best class depending on the situation and 2) that Ninja's existence shouldn't be affecting how good another class is. Clearly you think differently but it's incorrect logic in this case.

Ok, it just seems odd to me that number of Djinni wouldn't be taken into context here.

So they cost 2 PP less at this late in the game. Not that big of a deal now.

As for Samurai covering both Fire and Earth weak enemies, please give me an exact name for which enemies that a Samurai's Magical Psynergy is better than Apprentice/Page. I will then do the math and see who's right. And don't forget about Astral Blast for Apprentice/Page.

Costing less PP is essentially the same as having more PP to start with.

Ok, let's try it out.

Level 26 Isaac has ~108 base Att. The Dragon Axe (found in Lunpa) has 100 Att but that gets added after the class bonuses.

Enchanter!Isaac has a 130% Att class bonus which gives him 140 Att. Tack on an extra 17 Att from Sap, Bane, Gust, Smog and Squall and 100 from the Dragon Axe to make that 257 Att. He's also got 102 Wind Power. Samurai!Isaac has a 150% Att class bonus which gives him 162 Att. Tack on an extra 18 Att from Gust, Smog, Squall, Forge, Fever and Scorch to make that 280 Att along with 96 Fire Power. So Samurai!Isaac has a 23 Att lead. Hardly commanding.

Let's now look at an enemy from Venus Lighthouse like a Goblin... oh wait, it's Wind weak! That's not fair... Then how about an Earth Golem... oh shit, that's Wind weak too. In fact, Enchanter!Isaac has weakness attacks on most of the enemies that mill around Venus Lighthouse and Babi Lighthouse. Might as well take a Goblin in that case since it's got the closest Fire and Wind Resists.

Earth Golem - 91 Def, 48 Wind Resist, 72 Fire Resist

Enchanter!Isaac casts Astral Blast!

Relative Attack = 257 Att - 91 Def = 166 RA

Relative Power = 102 Wind Power - 48 Wind Resist = 54 RP

Base Damage = 166 RA / 2 = 83 Damage

Revised Damage = 83 Damage + 32 Dam = 115 Damage

Power Multiplier = 1 + 54 RP / 400 = 1.135

Actual Damage = 115 Damage * 1.135 + 0-3 Damage = 130-133 Damage

Samurai!Isaac attacks!

Relative Attack = 280 Att - 91 Def = 189 RA

Base Damage = 189 RA / 2 + 0-3 Damage = 95-98 Damage

Samurai!Isaac's Dragon Axe lets out a howl! Heat Mirage!

Relative Power = 96 Fire Power - 72 Fire Resist = 24 RP

Power Multiplier = 1 + 24 RP / 400 = 1.06

Revised Damage = 95 Damage + 21 Dam = 116 Damage

Actual Damage = 116 Damage * 1.06 + 0-3 Damage = 123-126 Damage

So no, the 20% Att boost that Samurai has over Enchanter doesn't really matter. Partly because Enchanter!Isaac is now at a part of the game where he's destroying enemies left and right thanks to that Wind EPA of his and partly because of Samurai's lowered Elemental Power.

Why is Isaac using the Dragon Axe in Venus Lighthouse? You've already been to Lalivero and, as such, you have the Swift Sword.

Swift Sword

-----------

Artifacts list (Lalivero)

9400 coins

Attack +104

Wind Power +10

Sonic Smash (Wind)

May hit multiple times

You can also pick up the Kikuichimonji in Venus Lighthouse as well, easy enough if you do some RNG manipulation.

Kikuichimonji

-------------

Rare Item Drop

Dropped by Fenrirs in upper Venus Lighthouse

13400 coins

Attack +128

Asura (Wind)

Then we come to HP. Now, I'm of the opinion that 190% boost to HP for the two people who have the highest HP totals is overkill. Just like Sain from FE7 has overkill Str, Samurai is overkill HP. I wouldn't have a problem if it were 180% or even 170% (even though I'd then point out that Conjurer!Isaac also has 170% HP). I'm just saying that too much of a good thing can be a bad thing. Samurai should have had a little of its HP bonus knocked off and put back in as better Psynergy at lower levels but eh.

I'm of the opinion that HP is NEVER a bad thing. You certainly aren't hitting the cap, even as a 99 Ronin in TLA. So this situation is nothing like having overkill stats in FE where once you hit that point it doesn't matter anymore.

Please go back and play this game. Are you honestly telling me that your party is at level 13 (that's when they get Planet Diver) in Tret Tree? The earliest they get Planet Diver is right before the Killer Ape (I was spamming Planet Diver). And that major PP downgrade that Brute gets is quite a killer.

Read my edit where I realized that I was mistaken, probably because we were talking about this same strategy at the same time that Integer was putting up the Tret stuff.

And even so, Apprentice/Page is constantly being a great class. It's got Impact, an early EPA, great all around stats especially PP and it hits the late game Wind weaknesses. It's very clutch throughout dungeons.

I can accept using Apprentice/Page, well mainly just Page, in Tret. But after that you run into a lot of Mars, Mercury, and Neutral weaknesses(technically the Colosso battles are weak to all). The Brute and Swordsmen series are a lot better for that.

@Narga

I can't find anything detailing miss chances. Regardless, you rarely miss anyway.

[Life]

Ok, it just seems odd to me that number of Djinni wouldn't be taken into context here.

Maybe so but we have to compare classes fairly. It's like comparing Nephenee to someone like Janaff in FE10. The argument "but we won't field Nephenee" doesn't work there. Neither does "Isaac always goes Ninja and is entitled to those Djinni" since it doesn't accurately compare the classes.

Costing less PP is essentially the same as having more PP to start with.

We're not talking about 10 PP over the course of 5 rounds. We're talking about ~30 or so. Costing less PP in the lategame is significantly less important than costing less in the earlygame.

Why is Isaac using the Dragon Axe in Venus Lighthouse? You've already been to Lalivero and, as such, you have the Swift Sword.

You can also pick up the Kikuichimonji in Venus Lighthouse as well, easy enough if you do some RNG manipulation.

You do know WHY I was talking about Enchanter!Isaac and not Conjurer!Isaac, right? This is Venus Lighthouse Part 1 that I've mentioned. Otherwise, I would have just pulled out Conjurer!Isaac and show a giant shitstomping.

I'm of the opinion that HP is NEVER a bad thing. You certainly aren't hitting the cap, even as a 99 Ronin in TLA. So this situation is nothing like having overkill stats in FE where once you hit that point it doesn't matter anymore.

But Samurai!Isaac shouldn't be anywhere near dying. Hell, not even Enchanter!Isaac should be close to dying and there's a 50% difference between the two HP totals.

Read my edit where I realized that I was mistaken, probably because we were talking about this same strategy at the same time that Integer was putting up the Tret stuff.

Narga ninja'd me. Sorry. Point still stands though.

I can accept using Apprentice/Page, well mainly just Page, in Tret. But after that you run into a lot of Mars, Mercury, and Neutral weaknesses(technically the Colosso battles are weak to all). The Brute and Swordsmen series are a lot better for that.

But those classes AREN'T worth using against regular mooks. Both suffer from low PP, especially Brute. In boss battles, they make sense. In actual dungeons, they don't. Apprentice/Page allows you to actually use PP without sacrificing other stats and finish off your opponents easily. Neither Brute nor Swordsman can say the same.

Edited September 20, 2010 by 4chan

[Suichimo]

You do know WHY I was talking about Enchanter!Isaac and not Conjurer!Isaac, right? This is Venus Lighthouse Part 1 that I've mentioned. Otherwise, I would have just pulled out Conjurer!Isaac and show a giant shitstomping.

Honestly, no. We're apparently comparing class lines here but you aren't willing to take Enchanter up to Conjurer. The entire reason that I pointed out your use of the Dragon Axe is because A)You have stronger weapons available to you at the time and B)You were using a weaker weapon that was strongly resisted by the enemies when you could have been using a stronger weapon that was strong against the enemies.

But Samurai!Isaac shouldn't be anywhere near dying. Hell, not even Enchanter!Isaac should be close to dying and there's a 50% difference between the two HP totals.

At this point you have three boss fights left and they all get two actions per turn, with some very strong attacks. You will be very thankful for that extra HP.

But those classes AREN'T worth using against regular mooks. Both suffer from low PP, especially Brute. In boss battles, they make sense. In actual dungeons, they don't. Apprentice/Page allows you to actually use PP without sacrificing other stats and finish off your opponents easily. Neither Brute nor Swordsman can say the same.

What makes them not worth using? The kills aren't flashy? Isaac, Garet, and Ivan are all perfectly capable of killing without the use of Psynergy if they need to save it that badly, though Ivan won't be doing much physical attacking until you have some good spare light blades for him to use.

[Life]

Honestly, you should go back and do a quick runthrough of the game, Suichimo. I'm learning things that I never realized before. Like Mogall Forest being a water dungeon. And Lamarkan Desert being dual weak to Water and Wind (regular enemies to Wind, Antlions and Manticore to Water).

[Narga_Rocks]

Just a question, how many of you use Avoid and how often do you enter combat when it is active? Earlier in GS after finishing Crossbone Isle I ran through the entire Suhalla Desert without ever fighting. In fact, ran through a fair amount of the Venus Lighthouse with Avoid active and never fought.

In TLA, I've used it a bunch of times when getting annoyed with running back and forth and I think I've fought maybe once or twice while it was active? Is the game screwing with me or does Avoid really make you fight so little that you can go through entire dungeons and only fight once or twice if you keep using it?

[Suichimo]

I've never bothered with Avoid. I just fought whatever came at me.

Edited September 29, 2010 by Suichimo

[Narga_Rocks]

I've never bothered with Avoid. I just fought whatever came at me.

Even Air's Rock? Because it is seriously annoying messing with running all over the place trying to whirlwind all of the blocking things and backtracking and whatever. So much less painful with Avoid. Though I didn't keep it up constantly since I didn't want my level to suffer too much. When I got done doing something annoying I'd leave it off for a few battles until the next "puzzle".

I hope the other places are more straight forward and require less running around imitating headless chickens. I don't remember for sure. But it is a lot easier to tolerate constant fighting if it's something like Suhalla Desert where the path is pretty straight forward.

And I kinda hate the Briggs battle on HM at level 10 with 6 djinn. Just as a side note. Never had a TPK in all of GS and GSTLA up to that point, only ever had one death in TLA and none in GS, in fact, and the death was just due to being cheap with PP and not wanting to heal Felix and then he got bulldozed one battle (had to leave the desert and run back to Madra for the priest-like dude to revive him). At least after a couple tries I finally won without dying. And Briggs suggested that we would have won even without our special powers. HA.

[Life]

Air's Rock is hilarious for the most part. The enemies are easy but the battle rate is quite high. But the game tosses you at least 2 Psynergy Stones in that dungeon, including the room with the reusable one. It's long but it's great for leveling up.

On the flipside, you have Yampi Desert with a boss that's actually a lot harder (my opinion) than other earlygame RPG bosses (the only exceptions are Gattuso in Tales of Vesperia and the Lord of the Lava Caves in Baten Kaitos Origins but BKO's bosses are stupidly hard at points and laughable at others). King Scorpion would also easily kill the team if I didn't use Air's Rock to level up (pretty sure you don't need to beat Air's Rock first).

[Shadow Mir]

Just a question, how many of you use Avoid and how often do you enter combat when it is active? Earlier in GS after finishing Crossbone Isle I ran through the entire Suhalla Desert without ever fighting. In fact, ran through a fair amount of the Venus Lighthouse with Avoid active and never fought.

In TLA, I've used it a bunch of times when getting annoyed with running back and forth and I think I've fought maybe once or twice while it was active? Is the game screwing with me or does Avoid really make you fight so little that you can go through entire dungeons and only fight once or twice if you keep using it?

I think it's with regard to your levels versus the enemy's levels. I used it during the Great Eastern Sea portion of the game and never got pulled into battles with it active when I had a total party level around 26-27. Didn't help me all that much when on land in the western part of Weyard, though, when my party was around level 29-30.

And I kinda hate the Briggs battle on HM at level 10 with 6 djinn. Just as a side note. Never had a TPK in all of GS and GSTLA up to that point, only ever had one death in TLA and none in GS, in fact, and the death was just due to being cheap with PP and not wanting to heal Felix and then he got bulldozed one battle (had to leave the desert and run back to Madra for the priest-like dude to revive him). At least after a couple tries I finally won without dying. And Briggs suggested that we would have won even without our special powers. HA.

Eh, I was around level 14 when I went against Briggs on hard mode (I did Air's Rock first) because I didn't feel like going into battle against him around level 10 (had a feeling that Briggs and his men would've bulldozed me otherwise).

[Narga_Rocks]

Air's Rock is hilarious for the most part. The enemies are easy but the battle rate is quite high. But the game tosses you at least 2 Psynergy Stones in that dungeon, including the room with the reusable one. It's long but it's great for leveling up.

On the flipside, you have Yampi Desert with a boss that's actually a lot harder (my opinion) than other earlygame RPG bosses (the only exceptions are Gattuso in Tales of Vesperia and the Lord of the Lava Caves in Baten Kaitos Origins but BKO's bosses are stupidly hard at points and laughable at others). King Scorpion would also easily kill the team if I didn't use Air's Rock to level up (pretty sure you don't need to beat Air's Rock first).

Really? I did the Scorpion at level 8 or 9, I'd assume, given how I took on Briggs at level 10. Probably level 9, and level 10 max (duh). Scorpion was way way way easier. And this is HM. Poor thing has too many single target attacks. Just pound away while healing. And I think I did a lot of:

Cannon -> Mars -> something -> repeat

Or possibly, if Felix was faster than Jenna,

Cannon + Mars -> wait -> repeat

But I doubt it. Plus you need to keep at least one other djinni on standby if you want access to the summon command. BTW, I adore how this game lets you declare a summon you don't have the djinn for since you can take advantage of that if you know your unleasher is faster than your summoner. I don't abuse that nearly often enough. Also, gotta love Fume. And Volcano, depending on your class. And juggle, actually. Great fun that. Load up with Fire and torch the poor thing. Breath + Cure + herbs for healing. No problem. Easy.

I think it's with regard to your levels versus the enemy's levels. I used it during the Great Eastern Sea portion of the game and never got pulled into battles with it active when I had a total party level around 26-27. Didn't help me all that much when on land in the western part of Weyard, though, when my party was around level 29-30.

So, the higher the level the better it works?

the higher the level the worse it works? not sure what your thing indicates.

It would make sense if a higher level makes it work better, but I'm not sure I've ever had what could be called a "high" level while using it. Except that time in the desert since I'd been through it a couple of times as well as gotten all the djinn.

Eh, I was around level 14 when I went against Briggs on hard mode (I did Air's Rock first) because I didn't feel like going into battle against him around level 10 (had a feeling that Briggs and his men would've bulldozed me otherwise).

Ward. Lots and lots of ward. And blowing all my PP on various spells. Including the cure series. Anyway, when I got Oil Dropped in my first few attempts, it took off like 70+ hp from every character and I was basically doomed the next turn since they were so quick and I was so low leveled and speeded. Basically, any attack after getting Oil Dropped was bound to KO someone. With +80 resistance, though, <50 damage for oil drop and thus much more manageable. Oh, and lots of "Iron", too. Cut down on the damage that Briggs does. Basically, any time anyone can be killed by Briggs, gotta have the character defend so that they take less damage and then also heal them.

So, like, 8+ herbs, 2 nuts. Lots of "cure". And I gave someone the Mysterious Card. Probably Felix, so that he'd be in a 130% agi class. At least everyone was faster than his helpers. If only barely for one of my 3. Jenna was pretty close in spd to Briggs, but was just short. Made me sad. Oh, and once I got lucky with Sheba defending. She had 1 hp left after. I'd assume he didn't roll a "3" on the RNG, so if he'd rolled better she'd have died and I'd have had to reset. Which is why I would have liked Jenna to be faster, since Jenna was healing a defending Sheba and that wouldn't have been a risk otherwise. Still, Iron and casting Ward are great things.

Jenna was my warder. Loaded her up with my Jupiter Djinn in order to have that. Probably should have used Breath more, actually, given how you always go first with that. But I kinda wanted her to have both set at once. Not that two Jupiter actually gives her any psynergy that one doesn't. Mainly for the hp, I guess.

Edited September 30, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

Really? I did the Scorpion at level 8 or 9, I'd assume, given how I took on Briggs at level 10. Probably level 9, and level 10 max (duh). Scorpion was way way way easier. And this is HM. Poor thing has too many single target attacks. Just pound away while healing. And I think I did a lot of:

Cannon -> Mars -> something -> repeat

Or possibly, if Felix was faster than Jenna,

Cannon + Mars -> wait -> repeat

But I doubt it. Plus you need to keep at least one other djinni on standby if you want access to the summon command. BTW, I adore how this game lets you declare a summon you don't have the djinn for since you can take advantage of that if you know your unleasher is faster than your summoner. I don't abuse that nearly often enough. Also, gotta love Fume. And Volcano, depending on your class. And juggle, actually. Great fun that. Load up with Fire and torch the poor thing. Breath + Cure + herbs for healing. No problem. Easy.

So, the higher the level the better it works?

the higher the level the worse it works? not sure what your thing indicates.

It would make sense if a higher level makes it work better, but I'm not sure I've ever had what could be called a "high" level while using it. Except that time in the desert since I'd been through it a couple of times as well as gotten all the djinn.

Ward. Lots and lots of ward. And blowing all my PP on various spells. Including the cure series. Anyway, when I got Oil Dropped in my first few attempts, it took off like 70+ hp from every character and I was basically doomed the next turn since they were so quick and I was so low leveled and speeded. Basically, any attack after getting Oil Dropped was bound to KO someone. With +80 resistance, though, <50 damage for oil drop and thus much more manageable. Oh, and lots of "Iron", too. Cut down on the damage that Briggs does. Basically, any time anyone can be killed by Briggs, gotta have the character defend so that they take less damage and then also heal them.

So, like, 8+ herbs, 2 nuts. Lots of "cure". And I gave someone the Mysterious Card. Probably Felix, so that he'd be in a 130% agi class. At least everyone was faster than his helpers. If only barely for one of my 3. Jenna was pretty close in spd to Briggs, but was just short. Made me sad. Oh, and once I got lucky with Sheba defending. She had 1 hp left after. I'd assume he didn't roll a "3" on the RNG, so if he'd rolled better she'd have died and I'd have had to reset. Which is why I would have liked Jenna to be faster, since Jenna was healing a defending Sheba and that wouldn't have been a risk otherwise. Still, Iron and casting Ward are great things.

Jenna was my warder. Loaded her up with my Jupiter Djinn in order to have that. Probably should have used Breath more, actually, given how you always go first with that. But I kinda wanted her to have both set at once. Not that two Jupiter actually gives her any psynergy that one doesn't. Mainly for the hp, I guess.

With regard to the King Scorpion, it most often uses Twin Shear, an attack with 1.8 times its normal attack. It also uses Sand Breath and Desert Gasp pretty often (though those attacks only do half the normal damage to the Adepts on the side of whoever was targeted). It also can defend, which means you're doing half damage for that turn, but hey, at least that means it's not doing anything damaging. And with regard to the summon thing, that's pretty neat indeed.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I think it's how high your levels are relative to the levels of the enemies in the area. For example, most of Taopo Swamp's specimens are levels 22-23. I think you wouldn't run into anything with Avoid active if your level is at least 24.

Ward, huh? Hmm... THat would help drop the damage from the Oil Drops they love to use, which is one of my biggest worries about that fight (the other being Echo Cut, which all of them can use).

[Kriemhild]

Echo Cut and Oil Drop are annoying, yeah, but Signal Whistle wins the prize for me. I actually found Briggs to be the most difficult boss in Golden Sun. Deadbeard and Dullahan weren't nearly as tough to beat.

[Narga_Rocks]

Echo Cut and Oil Drop are annoying, yeah, but Signal Whistle wins the prize for me. I actually found Briggs to be the most difficult boss in Golden Sun. Deadbeard and Dullahan weren't nearly as tough to beat.

Yeah, it is much much easier to summon rush Dullahan. Taking advantage of Lull once (turn 1), it is actually possible to virtually guarantee victory. My strat is actually partially dependent on how quickly he kills the first team. The quicker the better. Preferably on turn 2 with Charon, but if not then hopefully before Mud or Vine wears off. Team 2 is usually lacking in +AGI items since I stick them all on team 1 to get them all faster than the guy. And for Deadbeard you have Flash, you'll have a high enough level to use Ragnarok if you want an EPA against his weakest res, you have Wish. What could possibli go wrong?

Signal Whistle isn't really a move. I'd argue it is more like an item. And he's got 3 of them. Might as well consider the battle to be boss + 4 goons and they are nice enough to only have max 2 at a time. And yeah, it is kind of annoying. Echo Cut is, too, but that's what Iron is for. At least it reduces damage and they don't do it all the time.

Imagine how easy the battle would be if you had wish already. Or at least Piers. 3 on 5 is really annoying.

[Kriemhild]

Yeah, it is much much easier to summon rush Dullahan. Taking advantage of Lull once (turn 1), it is actually possible to virtually guarantee victory. My strat is actually partially dependent on how quickly he kills the first team. The quicker the better. Preferably on turn 2 with Charon, but if not then hopefully before Mud or Vine wears off. Team 2 is usually lacking in +AGI items since I stick them all on team 1 to get them all faster than the guy. And for Deadbeard you have Flash, you'll have a high enough level to use Ragnarok if you want an EPA against his weakest res, you have Wish. What could possibli go wrong?

Heh, I tend to put my weaker team in the front to dish out as much damage as possible before my main party comes over and does the main thing. Lull is just plain awesome. As for Deadbeard, you not only have Flash, but Granite too, which means you probably won't be using Wish except after every five turns or something like that.

Signal Whistle isn't really a move. I'd argue it is more like an item. And he's got 3 of them. Might as well consider the battle to be boss + 4 goons and they are nice enough to only have max 2 at a time. And yeah, it is kind of annoying. Echo Cut is, too, but that's what Iron is for. At least it reduces damage and they don't do it all the time.

Oil Drops are still annoying though. And you have to waste a turn for Iron and reduce your stats too. Although, the Venus summon should be worth it.

Imagine how easy the battle would be if you had wish already. Or at least Piers. 3 on 5 is really annoying.

Yup. In this situation, if you want to heal only ONE person, you can't have more than two people attacking at the same turn. Here it's a 3-on-3, with both sides having physical attacks, elemental area attacks, and single-healing, but one side has a leader that knows Arise and has enough MP to use it twice. Totally unfair.

[Shadow Mir]

Echo Cut and Oil Drop are annoying, yeah, but Signal Whistle wins the prize for me. I actually found Briggs to be the most difficult boss in Golden Sun. Deadbeard and Dullahan weren't nearly as tough to beat.

Gah, Signal Whistle. How'd I forget? I KNEW I was forgetting something...

[Narga_Rocks]

I think it's too bad Life seems to have forgotten this. I wonder if he's finished GS yet and started GS TLA. It would be interesting to see where he would stick the Tamer series of classes. Whiplash is far too inexpensive for its power and early appearance. And those 3 PP EPAs with the same power as the 5 to 14 PP EPAs you get are also funny (though I rarely used those since they aren't as good as the other Tamer series options for boss battles and random battles I mostly stick to Djinn Releases, but Life likes cheap consistent damage so I figure that would be a point in their favour). Throw in Impact and Cure Poison + Restore, then when you have 6 Djinn include revive and a 170 HP wish-like spell... Oh, and Gryphon has an add mod of 85 and sometimes doubles. And still only costs 10 PP, about 5 to 12 less PP than the other upgraded EPA, only they don't randomly double for you and aside from Odyssey and Diamond Berg you need at least 7 djinn to get any of the others (no Garet so Liquifier doesn't count). And you don't need to be at crazy high levels for this stuff (think Samurai Quick Strike at level 40).

Trainer was my best damage-dealer against Serpent, and I had two characters packing Astral Blow who still lost to Sheba pulling out Whiplash. And not by insignificant amounts, either. Go Glower Staff! Just imagine if I'd gone to Aqua Rock and Tundaria Tower first and had enough djinn to make a Beastkeeper with Gryphon (Harpy was beating whiplash by like 10, but since it was 10 PP vs 6 PP it wasn't worth it. Gryphon would win by 15, but more importantly would randomly double damage). Consider Gryphon has an add mod of 85, randomly doubles (seems to be around half the time, so anywhere between 40% and 60% seems reasonable, though max of 50% seems more likely), and costs 10 PP. In comparison, Death Plunge (Ninja) has an add mod of 40, costs 14 PP, and obviously no double damage (random stunning, though). And you can make Sheba (better Air power) one much earlier (need 9 djinn on her just to get Ninja, need only 6 for Beastkeeper). And to upgrade to Death Leap you need 8 djinn. Now it costs 22 and has an add mod of 110 but probably still loses on average (though Disciple's better attack power might make a tie-game and Disciple has much better PP). Obviously, though, Ninja completely blows Beastkeeper away for multitarget damage, but Beastkeeper still has healing (multi-target and single-target) and Impact. And Revive. And aside from battles with 4+ enemies, multitarget ability is rarely important.

On a completely unrelated note, anyone do this against fire weak bosses:

Earth adept: load with fire for Planet Diver

Fire adept: load with earth for Planet Diver

Wind adept: load with water for Impact + Wish series

Water adept: load with wind for Impact + Wish series

And then simply spam those abilities? (Revive in possession of the top two, so as long as at least one stays alive it's fine. Give waters of life to wind or water, though, just in case of something really really weird happening). Poseidon got stomped on, basically. Kindle and Steam and Iron get used at the beginning, though. Summon Zagan with Piers or Sheba when they aren't doing something so that those can be used again. Steam just gets reset.)

Edited October 1, 2010 by Narga_Rocks