FE7 character ratings

[dondon151]

I think I've played through this game enough times (both with and without growths) to be able to have a good grasp on what characters can and can't do. Although it's been awhile since I've played through FE7 with growths, I believe I have the experience necessary to understand how growths improve the viability of player units.

A lot of these kinds of character rating threads claim to judge on an efficiency basis, but are made by users who haven't actually played through the game with the most efficient options available. I believe my insights will be novel to some readers (a lot of you know what to expect, though, given that it's coming from me), particularly since FE7 discussion has been stagnant for quite a while.

I'm going to try to break down the characters in an organized fashion in order to make their advantages and disadvantages clearer. I will give numerical scores based on a synthesis of every aspect of a character, but I highly encourage everyone to read what I have to say about a character, because it's very difficult to combine many disparate factors into one numerical score, especially since factors such as availability will have a huge impact on score.

(I bet that due to the above comment, there will be more scrutiny over the numerical scores. Whatever.)

Let's begin!

[dondon151]

Hector

Advantages

Wolf Beil: Effective weapons are rather lackluster in FE7 due to the 2x effective bonus, but despite all of that, the Wolf Beil still manages to shine. 20 effective MT, which is usually 22 as a result of WTA, allows Hector to comfortably 2HKO nearly every affected enemy in the game, and even OHKO some weaker cavaliers earlygame. For example, Hector only needs to grow 3 str to OHKO a 24 HP, 8 def cavalier in chapter 14, or 6/0 on average. Effective bonus aside, the Wolf Beil is a great weapon in its own right, boasting 2 more MT than an Iron Axe, but the same 75 hit. The only somewhat significant drawback is that it only has 30 uses and tends to break relatively early in the game for most players, but good decision making can prolong its longevity, as it is one of the things that really makes Hector stand out.

Offense: Hector has a good 7 str base with 60% growth, which is tied with a few other characters for the second best str growth in the game. His spd, however, is more problematic, with only 5 base and 35% growth, but it can be adequately described as being "just good enough." Having a nonzero spd base lets Hector double soldiers and knights earlygame, and coupled with high str and Wolf Beil, allows him to consistently ORKO whereas weaker units have trouble securing the 2HKO (particularly on knights). He won't be able to double your typical chapter 20 cavalier (8-9 AS) ever in his unpromoted lifetime, but he does have a shot at doubling weighed down enemies in midgame such as chapter 24 WKs (6 AS) and chapter 25 cavaliers (5-6 AS), which he needs to be around 16/0 for.

Physical durability: Many players notice Hector's excellent physical durability, which is not a trait commonly shared by most lord characters. This is probably Hector's most important trait, as it greatly magnifies his earlygame prowess when most player units aren't capable of taking too many enemy attacks at once. 19 HP base is pretty average, but a fantastic 90% growth is enough to compensate for that. What really stands out, though, is an 8 def base with 50% growth, the growth being the second highest in the game. For example, in chapter 13, 5/0 Hector's 22.6 HP, 10 def lets him absorb 3 attacks from 16-17 atk brigands, the strongest on the map. Archers have 11-12 atk and barely scratch him; even myrmidons with 12-13 atk after WTA fare no better than brigands even when doubling Hector (well, they'll hit more often). This advantage starts to become less noticeable as other player units approach higher levels of durability, however.

Availability: Hector is around for the entire game and is forced deployment on every map, so there is really no incentive not to make the most use of him.

Disadvantages

Promotion: IS has a common tendency to promote lords late, and Hector is no exception. Hector does not promote until after chapter 29, by which point there are only 5 non-trivial maps left in the game. Accompanying the problem of late promotion is the problem of having no more room to grow, which means that as chapter 29 approaches, there are fewer things that Hector can do as the rest of the team is promoting and overtaking him in utility. At least his promotion gains are good, though.

Mobility: Hector is locked to 5 move for the entire game, which is tolerable earlygame when the availability of mounted units is low, but increasingly becomes a severe issue as more mounted units are made available. On seize maps, Hector requires transportation and ends up being less able to fight as a result. On most other maps, unless Hector's contributions are required for whatever reason, the player is probably better off leaving Hector behind while everyone else charges ahead. As if that wasn't enough, 5 move is worse than every other promoted infantry class in the game sans generals. On the flip side, however, Hector is probably the best recipient of the Boots, as 3 of the remaining maps in the game after obtaining Boots are seize or arrive objectives, and the Boots will guarantee saved turns.

15 con: Hector's promotion bonus puts him at an unfortunate 15 con, which cannot be rescued by promoted mounted units outside of Eliwood, Priscilla, Florina, Heath, and Rath. It decreases flexibility, but since Florina and Heath can still carry him, it's not a significant disadvantage.

Summary

Hector is one of those units with fantastic earlygame utility, boasting offense and physical durability that far surpass most other player units at that point in the game, bolstered by a great effective weapon against 2 difficult enemy types. Unfortunately, late promotion and poor mobility really hamper his midgame and lategame potential, but as he's required deployment for every map, it's always possible to find some beneficial use for him.

Score: 7.0

Matthew

Advantages

Thief: Thieving is a form of utility that is often limited to only a few characters in the game, and is thus highly valued by players. Matthew is solely responsible for a decent chunk of player income, rare weapons, and promotion items, which allows other units to use those items and reach their full potential. Additionally, Matthew has extended vision in fog of war, which is important even if the player has precognition of enemy positions because, well, you can't attack enemies that your units can't see.

Matthew's sole thieving contributions include:

- Red Gem (11)

- Mend (15)

- Silver Axe (15)

- Hero Crest (17)

- Unlock (17)

- Elysian Whip (18)

- Guiding Ring (18)

- Silver Card (19x)

- Brave Bow (20)

I should mention, however, that the importance of some of these items is not to be overestimated. The chapter 11 Red Gem is 2500 G worth of earlygame income, but the player also gets 4000 G from selling the chapter 12 Secret Book. The Silver Card, a highly valued item by ranked players, is actually mostly completely unnecessary, as not only does it cost turns to steal, but the game also hands the player more than enough cash in the form of sellable gems, stat boosters (most notably Secret Books and Goddess Icons), and promotion items (Ocean Seal, Earth Seals, Heaven Seals). Unlock, while it is a situationally useful staff, can also be purchased in the chapter 22 secret shop. The listed promotion items are fairly important, however, in particular the Hero Crest and Elysian Whip, as the Hero Crest allows for an early promotion for Raven and the Elysian Whip promotes any one of the numerous fliers in the game. The Guiding Ring is not generally worth obtaining, as it costs more turns to steal than it will save in the long run. The Silver Axe and Brave Bow are weapons that could be situationally useful if abused.

From chapter 20 on, Matthew is required to share thieving capabilities with Legault, and chapter 22 has purchasable Chest Keys, which virtually replace thief utility entirely. Matthew's only significant contributions from there on are on fog of war maps.

Matthew and Legault's shared thieving contributions include:

- Member Card (20)

- Hero Crest (21)

- 10000 G (22)

- Brave Axe (22)

- Ocean Seal (23)

- Body Ring (23)

- Filla's Might (23)

- Eclipse (23)

- Light Brand (23)

- Hero Crest (23)

- Guiding Ring (23)

- White Gem (23)

- Earth Seal (28)

- Angelic Robe (28x)

- Blue Gem (28x)

- Speedwings (30)

- Goddess Icon (30)

Of the listed items, the Member Card is perhaps the most important, allowing the player to purchase multiple Barriers and Physics in chapter 22 and efficiently level up staff users. (I should also point out the irony in thieves obsoleting themselves with the Member Card, enabling the player to purchase Chest Keys.) The Brave Axe is an important offensive item capable of reliably ORKOing many lategame bosses. Of the items listed in chapter 23, only a few can be reasonably obtained in the short span of time required to clear the map; the most important and most easily obtainable items include the Ocean Seal, Body Ring, Filla's Might, and White Gem. Other items are either too difficult to obtain or cost more than they would help. Items listed after chapter 23 are generally not worth obtaining; items in chapter 28x require extensive support to steal safely, and chapter 30 only has 1 free deployment slot that is better left to a superior auxiliary unit.

Lyn mode: Matthew's bases are pretty lackluster, with 4 str, 11 spd doing little damage to enemies even with doubling (e.g. Matthew does 4 x2 HP damage to an 18 HP, 4 def PK in chapter 12). His defensive parameters are even worse, with 18 HP, 3 def being 2HKO'd by most combinations of enemies in chapter 12 (brigands have 15 atk after WTD, PKs have 14-15 atk after WTA). Lyn mode allows Matthew to get some levels to pad his base parameters, although even a 7/0 Matthew with 21.75 HP, 4.25 def will be consistently 2HKO'd on average, but he will get out of this rut faster. Matthew also has potential access to the Angelic Robe and Energy Ring, and is a decent candidate due to having the earliest availability of all Lyn mode characters, although he also has the most limited long term use.

Availability: Matthew is around to thief for the entire game. Not having to share the credit means a lot. Matthew is also around to help out with combat earlygame, and every little bit matters when the team is at its weakest.

Disadvantages

Poor combat: As touched on before, Matthew has poor bases in both the offensive and defensive areas. Combined with inadequate growths to make up for these bases (75% HP, 30% str, 25% def) and a weapon lock to swords, Matthew has no long term potential, and should not be treated as a combat unit past the first few earlygame chapters.

Promotion: Thieves have an exclusive promotion item, the Fell Contract, that is obtained upon defeating Sonia in chapter 28x. Not only is this absurdly late, but Matthew's combat parameters are poor anyway, and the promotion bonuses are incredibly lame. +1 str on top of Matthew's already poor str means that he will be eternally reliant on critical hits and OHKO procs to KO enemies, and no WEXP bonus means that it will be virtually impossible to reach S rank swords for the supplementary 5 crit. The Fell Contract also sells for 25000 G, although at that point in the game the extra cash is completely superfluous.

Substitution: Chest Keys are available in a secret shop in chapter 22. Between dedicating a unit slot to obtaining items and dedicating an item slot to do the same, the latter is far more efficient than the former. Essentially, this means that from that point onwards, there is no reason to deploy a thief on the map short of extended vision in fog of war. Stealable items past that point are generally superfluous and not worth getting.

Summary

Matthew's thieving utility and earlygame combat contributions accurately define his existence, as it is probably better to not deploy him after chapter 20 when Legault becomes available. Therefore, his contributions are a fairly limited, but still crucial, element of an efficient playthrough.

Score: 7.5

Edited December 5, 2010 by dondon151

[Anouleth]

It's nice to see a ranking topic from someone who's opinion I actually care about!

Also, surprised to see no mentioning of desert items for Matthew. I also wouldn't exactly disregard his contributions after Chapter 20. While Legault exists and is better, they are still pretty similar and I wouldn't say there's a significant gap between them.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Florete]

As if that wasn't enough, 5 move is worse than every other promoted infantry class in the game sans generals. On the flip side, however, Hector is probably the best recipient of the Boots, as 3 of the remaining maps in the game after obtaining Boots are seize or arrive objectives, and the Boots will guarantee saved turns.

Wait, isn't it only two? The Berserker and Victory or Death. Or is Value of Life Seize as well? (I remember it being Kill Kishuna, but I could be wrong). In any case, I found using Warp on The Berserker to help in a way Boots couldn't have (and what else will you really use it for other than speeding up Seizing?).

15 con: Hector's promotion bonus puts him at an unfortunate 15 con, which cannot be rescued by promoted mounted units outside of Eliwood, Florina, and Rath. It decreases flexibility, but since Florina can still carry him, it's not a significant disadvantage.

And Heath (if he couldn't VoD would have taken me much longer).

Matthew's sole thieving contributions include:

- Red Gem (11)

- Silver Axe (15)

- Hero Crest (17)

- Unlock (17)

- Elysian Whip (18)

- Guiding Ring (18)

- Silver Card (19x)

I'm a little surprised you didn't go into any detail on how much these help, especially that Silver Card.

Anyway, I look forward to seeing more. I'm not too sure about Matthew's score but I'll wait until more comes.

[Colonel M]

Value of Life is Kill Kishuna. So Seize-wise it's limited to 2 chapters.

[dondon151]

Also, surprised to see no mentioning of desert items for Matthew. I also wouldn't exactly disregard his contributions after Chapter 20. While Legault exists and is better, they are still pretty similar and I wouldn't say there's a significant gap between them.

I was planning on covering those items with Legault, but you're right; I will include those. I got kind of lazy.

Wait, isn't it only two? The Berserker and Victory or Death. Or is Value of Life Seize as well? (I remember it being Kill Kishuna, but I could be wrong). In any case, I found using Warp on The Berserker to help in a way Boots couldn't have (and what else will you really use it for other than speeding up Seizing?).

Night of Farewells is a seize map.

And Heath (if he couldn't VoD would have taken me much longer).

Right... I forgot that WKs only get +1 con on promo.

I'm a little surprised you didn't go into any detail on how much these help, especially that Silver Card.

They're pretty self-explanatory. I highly disagree about the Silver Card, though; I think I'm going to include a paragraph on why it doesn't help.

[dondon151]

Oswin

Advantages

Physical durability: Oswin's physical durability is by far the best on the team when he becomes available. In only chapter 12, he boasts 28 HP, 13 def, which results in him receiving only 0-1 HP damage from most enemy units on the map. On tough defense maps such as chapter 13x, those base parameters allow him to take 0 HP damage from all sword and bow wielding units on the map (excluding Puzon) and 4-5 HP damage from brigands, which is still anywhere from a 5 to a 7RKO. If that wasn't enough, Oswin also has excellent 90% HP, 55% def growths, which are both the highest in the game for their respective stats (excluding Merlinus). In short, Oswin is virtually unkillable by physical assaults, and this trait allows him to choke any point on the map (useful for maps like chapter 15) or reliably counter enemies at any point on the map for most of the game.

Offense: Oswin also has an excellent 13 base str, which amounts to 20 atk with an Iron Lance, the second highest on the team next to Marcus. While this doesn't tend to OHKO enemies, it does reliably 2HKO every enemy class except for knights, which, coupled with Oswin's physical durability, allows Oswin to KO enemies rather quickly with a combination of a player phase and an enemy phase attack. Additionally, Oswin is capable of doing enough damage in a single hit such that he allows offensively weaker units to secure a KO without having to take a counter. For example, against a 22 HP, 5 def mercenary in chapter 14, Oswin can counter for 16 HP damage with an Iron Lance, and a unit like Guy or Eliwood with 11 or more atk can safely KO.

Availability: Like Hector, Oswin is a defensive juggernaut that is around to make significant contributions in the most difficult part of the game.

Disadvantages

Promotion: Oswin's promotion item, the Knight Crest, is relatively rare (there are 2 obtainable Knight Crests in HHM outside of the chapter 31 secret shop) and heavily competed for by 3 other cavaliers who have far greater lategame potential. There is always the Earth Seal, but that is competed for by many other units who also have more lategame potential than Oswin, and can be sold for 10000 G (almost certainly worth more than what promoted Oswin can contribute).

Mobility: Oswin's mobility problems are even worse than Hector's, with 1 less unpromoted move. Mobility is not an issue earlygame where mounted units are limited and Oswin can reach his destinations quickly enough, but it does greatly discourage long term use.

16 con: Oswin's promotion bonus puts him at 16 con, which cannot be carried by promoted mounted units outside of Eliwood and Rath. This is actually a significant problem, because coupled with mobility issues, the player can't even rescue him and drop him on the front lines.

Summary

Oswin, like Hector, is also a unit with earlygame utility matched by few others, but the classic knight related issues essentially discount all possibility of use in the long term. Past chapter 20, there is really not a single map where deploying Oswin is an efficient decision, but the magnitude of his earlygame utility is enough to offset that.

Score: 7.0

Serra

Advantages

Staves: Serra is one of two earlygame staff users, and thus has an important niche. Although the only staves available earlygame are of the Heal and Mend varieties, it essentially frees up a player phase for a combat unit or enables a more extensive enemy phase. More staves become available midgame, most notably Torch, Barrier, and Physic. Torch allows for a more flexible extended vision range in fog of war maps; Barrier is a very easily spammable staff for EXP and WEXP in addition to being important in its own right for enabling a plethora of strategies that would otherwise be too risky or impossible without a res buffer; Physic is just an incredibly useful staff because no longer is Serra required to be near combat in order to heal allies. Lategame, a combination of Warp, Rescue, and Hammerne trivialize a handful of otherwise long, difficult maps.

Lyn mode: Serra does have Lyn mode to gain some EXP, but Lyn mode can be completed so quickly that Serra will not usually gain more than a level. Since she has no combat ability, the stat boosters are wasted on her.

Availability: Serra is around for almost the entire game. More importantly, she has 4 unshared chapters with Priscilla.

Disadvantages

EXP gain: Being an earlygame healer with a low starting level means that EXP is extremely difficult to come by. Serra can, under most optimal conditions, only gain 11 or 12 EXP per turn until more expensive staves become available. The first 12 earlygame chapters can be completed in just under 6 turns each on average, and Serra will often either be out of range of potential healing targets, or will not have any healing targets at all. The result is that Serra will be struggling to even promote at 10/0 in a reasonable time frame.

No combat: Serra can't fight unpromoted, which occasionally limits what she can do - if Serra is on the receiving end of an attack, the enemy could have been countered if Serra hadn't been there to divert it, which results in a net loss in efficiency. Additionally, Serra has terrible offensive parameters at 10/1 - 11.5 atk, 11.6 AS with Lightning or 13.5 atk, 9.6 AS with Shine. In the long run, unless Serra is needed to KO an enemy, it's probably better not to have her fight at all.

Competition: Being able to use staves is a role in high demand, but at the same time, deploying multiple staff users just for healing purposes is more often than not counterproductive towards efficiency, as it results in one less mounted unit or one less combat unit. Serra has to compete with Priscilla for a deployment slot most of the time, and although both are excellent lategame units, sharing the EXP between both of them means that neither of them are going to reach promotion in any reasonable time frame - it's more efficient to put all of your eggs in one basket, so to speak, and Priscilla is generally a better basket.

Summary

When most players think of staves, they think of the ubiquitous Heal staff, but Serra's utility extends far beyond that. Earlygame healing is crucial for maintaining momentum, and lategame staffing is crucial for employing turn-saving strategies and minimizing frustration brought about by long range tomes and status staves. Sadly, the fast-paced nature of efficient play, combined with Serra's slow rate of EXP gain, confines her to being a staffbot for virtually her entire existence, and she is completely outclassed by Priscilla.

Score: 8.0

Edited December 5, 2010 by dondon151

[Florete]

Night of Farewells is a seize map.

Oh, I see. I was confusing that part for after he'd promoted, but it was after the Boots are acquired.

Although NoF isn't exactly the best argument for giving Hector the Boots anyway. The only way to go fast at all in that is Rescue-Drop.

They're pretty self-explanatory. I highly disagree about the Silver Card, though; I think I'm going to include a paragraph on why it doesn't help.

But I disagree with your paragraph about the Silver Card, and the notion that it isn't very useful in general. Sure, you get a lot of money, but a lot of what you're selling are things like stat boosters that can be used for other means. Sure, +2 Skl may not be the greatest of bonuses, but the Silver Card allows me take advantage of it regardless (and since there are like 3 Books in the game, all of them on one person actually can make a significant difference). Even aside from that, it just allows for so much more flexibility. You can pretty much spam things like Killers and Physics that you otherwise would need to be a lot more tight on. It's not that it's at all necessary or anything, but saying it doesn't help is anything but true.

[dondon151]

Although NoF isn't exactly the best argument for giving Hector the Boots anyway. The only way to go fast at all in that is Rescue-Drop.

If you drop Hector on the southwest corner of the island leading to the throne, 14 move is more flexible than 10 move (with Ninian's assistance). You also wouldn't have to drop Hector in range of Sonia's Bolting if for whatever reason he can't survive it. Minor details, but details are details.

But I disagree with your paragraph about the Silver Card, and the notion that it isn't very useful in general. Sure, you get a lot of money, but a lot of what you're selling are things like stat boosters that can be used for other means. Sure, +2 Skl may not be the greatest of bonuses, but the Silver Card allows me take advantage of it regardless (and since there are like 3 Books in the game, all of them on one person actually can make a significant difference). Even aside from that, it just allows for so much more flexibility. You can pretty much spam things like Killers and Physics that you otherwise would need to be a lot more tight on. It's not that it's at all necessary or anything, but saying it doesn't help is anything but true.

I had no trouble spamming Killers and Physics without the Silver Card. I had enough money to buy 7 Killer Lances, 7 Killer Axes, 4 Killing Edges, and 2 Killer Bows in chapter 26, and 2 Barriers and 3 Physics in chapter 22, with cash left over and remaining excesses of all of those items by the end of the game (oh, and I recruited Farina). I guess Silver Card enables use of Dart, but that's really about it.

You could actually use the items, and you don't have to sell every one of them. You are guaranteed 10000 G in chapter 22 for the secret shop. If you can get the Blue Gem in chapter 20, that's another 5000 G for chapter 22. Throw in Lyn's likely Blue Gem, a Red Gem from chapter 17's soldiers, a Red Gem from chapter 16, and the chapter 11 Red Gem for 27500G by chapter 22, without selling stat boosters. Consider that a fraction of that is going to be spent on Hand Axes, Javelins, Pure Waters, and other miscellaneous items. You'll still have around 18000 G or so left for the chapter 22 secret shop. Just short of the 2 Chest Keys, 2 Barriers, and 3 Physics that I bought. Sell any one of the Secret Books or Goddess Icons available before then and you're golden.

Chapter 26 is even easier. You get a White Gem from Jasmine and a White Gem from Louise for guaranteed 20000 G. If you're not using Dart, selling the Ocean Seal puts you at 45000 G. You could recruit Farina and buy like 21 total killer weapons before you go bankrupt.

Edited December 5, 2010 by dondon151

[Florete]

If you drop Hector on the southwest corner of the island leading to the throne, 14 move is more flexible than 10 move (with Ninian's assistance). You also wouldn't have to drop Hector in range of Sonia's Bolting if for whatever reason he can't survive it.

What kind of strategy are you trying to employ here?

I had no trouble spamming Killers and Physics without the Silver Card. I had enough money to buy 7 Killer Lances, 7 Killer Axes, 4 Killing Edges, and 2 Killer Bows in chapter 26, and 2 Barriers and 3 Physics in chapter 22, with cash left over and remaining excesses of all of those items by the end of the game. I guess Silver Card enables use of Dart, but that's really about it.

Sorry if I don't quite believe you on this, but where did you get so much money? Even with the Silver Card I don't know if I'd be able to buy that much. Just how much stuff are you selling to have enough to buy all these weapons that cost at least 1k each (and with Physics at nearly 4k) even before you get the 25k Ocean Seal? And does money left over include money for things like Reavers, ranged weapons, tomes, and various extras (Pure Water, the occasional Iron/Steel, etc.)? How many Silver weapons are you able to buy by the time you hit Cog of Destiny? Hell, how many Chest Keys do you buy, seeing as they obsolete Thieves so much (which, given that you need them to steal the Member Card, may not be entirely accurate)?

Oh wait, in Ch 26. So you don't have the money to do it at Dragon's Gate, then?

15 con: Hector's promotion bonus puts him at an unfortunate 15 con, which cannot be rescued by promoted mounted units outside of Eliwood, Florina, Heath, and Rath. It decreases flexibility, but since Florina and Heath can still carry him, it's not a significant disadvantage.

Back to here: There is also Priscilla.

Back on the Silver Card thing, I find it strange you can mention selling Earth Seals and then include this line:

There is always the Earth Seal, but that is competed for by many other units who also have more lategame potential than Oswin.

You also mentioned Heaven Seals, but I'd imagine at least 1 would probably be used.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[dondon151]

What kind of strategy are you trying to employ here?

You can't drop Hector directly on the throne because of the walls surrounding it. If you drop him within 7 spaces of the throne, you can guarantee that he'll seize with the Boots next turn or on the same turn with Ninian's help. It's more flexible than having to do so with 5 move. Also, since Hector's max movement range over one turn is 10 and Sonia's Bolting range is 10, if he's unable to stomach a 34 atk Bolting for whatever reason, Boots allows him to start 12 tiles away from the throne, safely out of range.

Also, there's that annoying island of generals that limits how you can approach Sonia. If you fly high, you get Bolting'd, and their formation just kind of completely blocks you unless you somehow kill them fast enough.

Sorry if I don't quite believe you on this, but where did you get so much money? Even with the Silver Card I don't know if I'd be able to buy that much. Just how much stuff are you selling to have enough to buy all these weapons that cost at least 1k each (and with Physics at nearly 4k) even before you get the 25k Ocean Seal? And does money left over include money for things like Reavers, ranged weapons, tomes, and various extras (Pure Water, the occasional Iron/Steel, etc.)? How many Silver weapons are you able to buy by the time you hit Cog of Destiny? Hell, how many Chest Keys do you buy, seeing as they obsolete Thieves so much (which, given that you need them to steal the Member Card, may not be entirely accurate)?

I detailed part of it after editing the previous post. I didn't get the chapter 20 Blue Gem, but it shouldn't be out of reach with growths because you'd have other units who can plow up the chokepoint.

Let me catalog my expenditures up to chapter 22:

Sold 2x Secret Book (8000 G), 2x Goddess Icon (8000 G), 3x Red Gem (7500 G), 1x Blue Gem (5000 G), 1x Short Bow (880 G), obtained 15000 G, total 44380 G

Bought 4x Iron Axe (1080 G), 3x Iron Lance (1080 G), 1x Iron Sword (460 G), 2x Steel Axe (720G), 1x Steel Lance (480 G), 2x Steel Sword (1200G), 1x Steel Bow (720 G), 16x Javelin (6400 G), 9x Hand Axe (2700 G), 4x Heal (2400 G), 1x Vulnerary (300 G), 7x Door Key (350 G), 6x Pure Water (5400 G), 2x Chest Key (3000 G), 1x Lockpick (1500 G), 3x Physic (11250 G), 2x Barrier (4500 G), total 43540 G

So if we strike the superfluous expenditures, which include 1x Lockpick, 1x Vulnerary, 2x Steel Axe, 2x Steel Sword, and 2x Heal for a total saving of 4920 G, then assume that we obtain the chapter 20 Blue Gem for another 5000 G, that puts us at 10760 G under budget, or 2 free use stat boosters. Not bad. You can also sell the Member Card in the chapter 22 secret shop for an extra 3000 G, which puts us at 13760 G under budget, or 3 free use stat boosters. There's nothing worth buying in the secret shops after chapter 22. Everything after chapter 22 is easy with the 2 White Gems and the Ocean Seal.

Oh wait, in Ch 26. So you don't have the money to do it at Dragon's Gate, then?

Nope, but I'm assuming we're skipping that shop because it takes more turns to buy something than what those items save.

Back to here: There is also Priscilla.

Gotcha.

Back on the Silver Card thing, I find it strange you can mention selling Earth Seals and then include this line:

You don't have to use the Earth Seal. You really only need it if you want to promote your third cavalier, or if you skipped a Hero Crest or Guiding Ring (very likely), and even then you don't have to promote that unit if 10000 G is a better deal.

You also mentioned Heaven Seals, but I'd imagine at least 1 would probably be used.

Eliwood and Lyn are both kind of terrible.

Edited December 5, 2010 by dondon151

[Florete]

Let me catalog my expenditures up to chapter 22:

Sold 2x Secret Book (8000 G), 2x Goddess Icon (8000 G), 3x Red Gem (7500 G), 1x Blue Gem (5000 G), 1x Short Bow (880 G), obtained 15000 G, total 44380 G

Bought 4x Iron Axe (1080 G), 3x Iron Lance (1080 G), 1x Iron Sword (460 G), 2x Steel Axe (720G), 1x Steel Lance (480 G), 2x Steel Sword (1200G), 1x Steel Bow (720 G), 16x Javelin (6400 G), 9x Hand Axe (2700 G), 4x Heal (2400 G), 1x Vulnerary (300 G), 7x Door Key (350 G), 6x Pure Water (5400 G), 2x Chest Key (3000 G), 1x Lockpick (1500 G), 3x Physic (11250 G), 2x Barrier (4500 G), total 43540 G

So if we strike the superfluous expenditures, which include 1x Lockpick, 1x Vulnerary, 2x Steel Axe, 2x Steel Sword, and 2x Heal for a total saving of 4920 G, then assume that we obtain the chapter 20 Blue Gem for another 5000 G, that puts us at 10760 G under budget, or 2 free use stat boosters. Not bad. You can also sell the Member Card in the chapter 22 secret shop for an extra 3000 G, which puts us at 13760 G under budget, or 3 free use stat boosters. There's nothing worth buying in the secret shops after chapter 22. Everything after chapter 22 is easy with the 2 White Gems and the Ocean Seal.

I suppose it does work, but that's still pretty damn specific. It's like you have to know exactly what you're doing or you're likely to screw it up (and you might need a pretty specific team). But I suppose this is your rating topic, so if you want to fly with something like that, as long as you can pull it off I guess I have nothing else to say on the matter.

Nope, but I'm assuming we're skipping that shop because it takes more turns to buy something than what those items save.

Personally I'd disagree, but I don't think it's worth pursuing. And what about the other one with the Blades and staves? I doubt that would take much, if any, longer to get to, though since it only gets you ~1 1/2 more chapters of use it probably isn't all that valuable.

You really only need it if you want to promote your third cavalier,

Case in point was Oswin, so what if you want to promote Oswin?

Eliwood and Lyn are both kind of terrible.

Eliwood perhaps, Lyn largely depends on how much LM use she gets.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[Paperblade]

Poor combat: As touched on before, Matthew has poor bases in both the offensive and defensive areas. Combined with poor growths (75% HP, 30% str, 25% def) and a weapon lock to swords, Matthew has no long term potential, and should not be treated as a combat unit past the first few earlygame chapters.

Mean HP Growth: 71.66

Median HP Growth: 70

Mean Defense Growth: 23.45

Median Defense Growth: 20

Poor compared to... what, exactly? Hector and Oswin?

Keep in mind the mean Defense growth gets brought up due to there being more high outliers (Hector, Oswin) than lower ones (I'm not even sure if the 10 on Lucius can even be considered an outlier, too lazy to calculate standard deviation)

Edited December 5, 2010 by Paperblade

[Life]

The Silver Axe and Brave Bow are weapons that could be situationally useful if abused - the Brave Bow in particular is responsible for a fast completion of chapter 23x.

Who's using it? If we went to Lyn Mode, Rath starts with C Bows, not B. Rebecca and Wil both start at D and require 90 WEx (Rath's Short Bow is the first one that appears).

[IntegerZero]

Who's using it? If we went to Lyn Mode, Rath starts with C Bows, not B. Rebecca and Wil both start at D and require 90 WEx (Rath's Short Bow is the first one that appears).

If I recall, chapter 23b nets you Geitz who has the lovely B Rank in bows. In fact he has sole usage unless you're using the three mentioned.

[Florete]

If I recall, chapter 23b nets you Geitz who has the lovely B Rank in bows. In fact he has sole usage unless you're using the three mentioned.

That's Eliwood. This is Hector. Geitz doesn't come in time for the case in question.

[dondon151]

I suppose it does work, but that's still pretty damn specific. It's like you have to know exactly what you're doing or you're likely to screw it up (and you might need a pretty specific team). But I suppose this is your rating topic, so if you want to fly with something like that, as long as you can pull it off I guess I have nothing else to say on the matter.

Of course. You have to know what you're doing, and you have to actually plan a little bit. Players have a tendency to overbuy, which I can understand, but the truth is that weapons last a surprisingly long time unless they're Javelins or Hand Axes.

Personally I'd disagree, but I don't think it's worth pursuing. And what about the other one with the Blades and staves? I doubt that would take much, if any, longer to get to, though since it only gets you ~1 1/2 more chapters of use it probably isn't all that valuable.

You lose killers for chapters 21-25, but it's not like it's a huge loss. You're given just enough to get by without them. You might want a Killing Edge for Oleg in chapter 21, but you should still have uses left on Guy's. You don't need killer weapons to defeat Eubans, just a ranged weapon to counter him and silvers (Marcus's Silver Lance, chapter 15 Silver Axe, Isadora's Silver Sword). Hawkeye starts with a Killer Axe in chapter 23. You should still have enough of those, in addition to Brave Axe and Brave Bow, to go around for chapters 23x and 24. You don't need them for chapter 25.

Case in point was Oswin, so what if you want to promote Oswin?

I merely listed it as an unlikely option.

Mean HP Growth: 71.66

Median HP Growth: 70

Mean Defense Growth: 23.45

Median Defense Growth: 20

Poor compared to... what, exactly? Hector and Oswin?

Keep in mind the mean Defense growth gets brought up due to there being more high outliers (Hector, Oswin) than lower ones (I'm not even sure if the 10 on Lucius can even be considered an outlier, too lazy to calculate standard deviation)

You don't need to compare the growths to conclude that they're low. What are Matthew's HP and def bases? Are his growths high enough to overcome the poor bases in a reasonable time frame? If the answer is no, then the growths are poor.

I mean, if I said that Matthew had "decent" durability growths, you'd expect him to become, you know, durable. But he's not. He's like, as durable as Canas, and is forced to stay that way for a long time.

I suppose I will go back and make the distinction between poor growths and inadequate growths.

Who's using it? If we went to Lyn Mode, Rath starts with C Bows, not B. Rebecca and Wil both start at D and require 90 WEx (Rath's Short Bow is the first one that appears).

Rath only needs 50 WEXP for B bows. He gets 40 upon promotion and will most certainly get 10 from LM and chapters 22 and 23. Yes, promoted Rath. You'll lose a turn or 2 on chapter 23, but I'm pretty sure that there are few, if any, alternatives for a potential 6 turn clear on chapter 23x.

I'll remove that mention until I get around to Rath, however.

Edited December 5, 2010 by dondon151

[dondon151]

Eliwood

Advantages

Rapier: Of the 3 lords' exclusive weapons, Eliwood kind of got the short end of the stick, but the Rapier is still a serviceable weapon in its own right. Its 14 effective MT is often reduced to 12 due to WTD, but Eliwood can still do significant damage to chapter 14 cavaliers in one attack, which makes him better suited for KOing after another unit has weakened them (Eliwood, at 5/0, has 18.8 or 20.8 atk on average against a 24 HP, 8 def cavalier). It also actually damages knights, which is more than what some other units can say, doing roughly 9 x2 HP damage to a 23 HP, 10 def knight. Against unaffected enemies, the Rapier is a decent weapon in its own right, being light enough to not reduce Eliwood's AS and having 2 more MT than an Iron Sword, which might be required to secure some KOs. 10 crit is icing on top of the cake, but it's nothing to rely on. Lastly, 40 uses means that the player can use the weapon fairly indiscriminately without worrying about it breaking.

Mounted: Eliwood gets +2 move and a horse upon promotion. Due to the importance of mobility, this actually makes him the best endgame lord... if you're willing to have him stick around for that long. He also has enough aid to rescue every player unit in the game sans Merlinus, but he also has only 7 move, 1 less than every other promoted mounted unit.

Support: Eliwood has a fast Hector support that very slightly alleviates his durability problems. It's 3 turns to C, then 27 more turns each to B and A.

Availability: Eliwood is deployable for almost the entire game, and is also forced in a few maps.

Disadvantages

Mediocre: Eliwood's bases are fairly depressing (18 HP, 5 str, 7 spd, 5 def), and his growths aren't anything particularly special, either (80% HP, 45% str, 40% spd, 30% def). Essentially, this means that Eliwood has an earlygame rut that takes a long time to climb out of. Eliwood probably won't be able to double consistently until enemies begin weighing themselves down starting in chapter 24, which is when Eliwood's performance begins to pick up.

Sword lock: Eliwood is locked to swords unpromoted, which means that he'll generally take counters on nonfatal blows and has reduced flexibility in attacking options, as well as a poor enemy phase. Being locked to the weakest weapon type in conjunction with having average str also hinders his offense even when he can double - 13/0 Eliwood with a Lancereaver does approximately 9 x2 HP damage to 29 HP, 12 def WKs in chapter 24, and is extremely borderline on doubling them anyway. Granted, the Wyrmslayer exists, but that does cost an extra turn to obtain and might not be worth getting given the existence of units that don't have problems ORKOing WKs.

Promotion: The first obtainable Heaven Seal doesn't appear until chapter 26, which is a fair bit later than the average promotion time. In addition to that, the Heaven Seal can be sold for 10000 G, and is obtained right before the only armory in the game before chapter 31x that sells killer weapons.

Summary

The amount of input required to make Eliwood a good unit is substantial, and by the time he actually reaches his potential, he's no more special than other player units. Eliwood is the epitome of mediocrity, and there are many traits that he possesses to make him just usable, but he's nowhere near a top performing unit by any means and should generally be left alone when not forced.

Score: 4.5

Marcus

Advantages

Bases: Amazing. 15 str pretty much 2HKOs any generic enemy for the first half of the game (e.g. chapter 25 cavaliers have around 32 HP, 8 def to Marcus's 24 atk with Iron Axe and WTA), 11 spd doubles a huge portion of earlygame enemies that hover around 6-7 AS, and 31 HP, 10 def allow Marcus to take an incredible amount of combat before succumbing. For example, 15 atk Iron Lance cavaliers in chapter 14 7HKO Marcus. The player can choose to supplement this with the chapter 15 Dragonshield, which allows Marcus (still at base) to be 8HKO'd by 16 atk Iron Lance knights in chapter 19x and 5HKO'd by 19 atk Steel Lance knights. Marcus even has a nice 8 res on top of that to be the best physical unit to stave off magic onslaughts, although he is noticeably more susceptible to them.

Weapon triangle: Marcus can wield all 3 weapon types in the triangle for maximum offensive and defensive leverage. If Marcus is tough to KO already, he's even tougher to KO at -1 atk and -15 hit.

Weapon ranks: Marcus's base weapon ranks are A swords, A lances, B axes, which essentially allows him to use any weapon that he wants, minus Silver Axes. He is able to get S lances as soon as chapter 15, which increases his reliability by giving +5 hit to, most notably, Javelin tosses. Marcus can choose between iron weapons to reliably 2HKO without being weighed down, ranged weapons for the best enemy phase, and silver weapons to flat out OHKO weaker enemies such as thieves, PKs, and mages. Oh, and he also has access to the Brave Axe, and later the Brave Sword and Brave Lance, which provide the possibility of ORKOing enemies that Marcus can't double, most notably unequipped enemies in chapter 23x and valkyries in chapter 29.

Mounted: Not only does Marcus have 8 move as a result of being mounted, which allows him to storm through a map faster than anyone else, but it also gives him flexibility to move around after using items and performing rescuing tasks. Particularly in lategame, where Marcus's poor growths have caught up to him, he can still be incredibly useful by virtue of his 8 mounted move and 14 aid.

Prepromoted: Self-explanatory, but I should point out that under the assumption of efficiency, promotion items are even more difficult to come by, as some cost more turns than they will save. Not the case for the Knight Crest, but Knight Crests already have enough competition issues.

Availability: Marcus can be deployed in every chapter except for chapter 11. To have this sort of monster at the very beginning of the game is a huge boon.

Disadvantages

Growths: Marcus's growths range from mediocre to bad, but they're still "good enough." His def growth sits at an atrocious 15%, but a Dragonshield adequately alleviates that problem. The cause for most concern is his base spd and his 25% spd growth, which prevents him from doubling a lot of midgame enemies before they start weighing themselves down, but the growth is high enough to keep Marcus's spd at the bare minimum to double the important enemies. For example, cavaliers in chapter 20 have anywhere from 7-9 AS, and Marcus only needs to be --/5 on average to double most of them (in fact, being --/9 with 13 AS on average is not completely impossible). Iron Lance WKs in chapter 26, which are about as fast as the class gets during midgame, have 9-10 AS, but Marcus comes prepared with his --/13 average of 14 AS. --/13 by chapter 26, while feasible, may be a little high, but the point is, Marcus's spd growth is good enough to allow him to double the necessary targets. Lastly, Marcus can use the chapter 27 or chapter 28x Speedwings to keep in tip-top shape for endgame.

Summary

For a long while, many individuals scorned the use of Marcus due to his poor growths and slow rate of EXP gain, but no amount of personal preference can challenge the fact that he is the best character in this game. He is in league with the monsters that are Seth and Titania, but is a little more challenging to use to his full potential; Marcus thrives on the EXP gained from bosskills and should be given them at every earlygame opportunity, and unlike Seth or Titania, does have a higher tendency to falter in usefulness if his spd growth does not keep up. A common misconception is that Marcus becomes unusable as the game nears its end, but his growths are just enough to keep him competitive and his mounted traits allow him to pick up other roles when he is not suited for combat. An efficient playthrough is, in fact, completely shaped around the use of Marcus, and the consequences that it has on the development of every other unit is just something that they'll have to deal with.

Score: 10.0

Edited December 13, 2010 by dondon151

[Integrity]

At least keep at this longer than Soul did, please. I'm highly enjoying seeing things laid out in such a meticulous fashion as compared to the haphazard ratings done by most others like, uh, me.

[Life]

Rath only needs 50 WEXP for B bows. He gets 40 upon promotion and will most certainly get 10 from LM and chapters 22 and 23. Yes, promoted Rath. You'll lose a turn or 2 on chapter 23, but I'm pretty sure that there are few, if any, alternatives for a potential 6 turn clear on chapter 23x.

I'll remove that mention until I get around to Rath, however.

I've argued insta-promoted Rath before. And I call bullshit on account that he still needs, you know, 3 levels to promotion. And I'm not fielding him in 23. Not when you have 6 deployment spots before Hector and Hawkeye.

For a long while, many individuals scorned the use of Marcus due to his poor growths and slow rate of EXP gain, but no amount of personal preference can challenge the fact that he is the best character in this game.

Bullshit. Ninian. It's like you said with Tethys. Even if she's not around for half of the game, there's no reason to not field her when she is. She's just that good.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Cthulhu

[Anouleth]

I've argued insta-promoted Rath before. And I call bullshit on account that he still needs, you know, 3 levels to promotion. And I'm not fielding him in 23. Not when you have 6 deployment spots before Hector and Hawkeye.

He can probably get the levels in between Lyn Mode and Chapter 22 if you're really opposed to using him in Chapter 23. And this is obviously a case where taking more time in the short-term pays off in Genesis. Hell, an insta-promoted Rath can be useful later on as well, for picking off Wyverns and rescue-dropping in Battle Before Dawn.

[Rewjeo]

Why do Oswin and Hector have the same score? I'd think Hector being forced alone should do that since he'll be tagging along and helping in some way throughout the game, while Oswin will probably be dropped, but I haven't played in a long time, so...

[Gergeshwan]

Bullshit. Ninian. It's like you said with Tethys. Even if she's not around for half of the game, there's no reason to not field her when she is. She's just that good.

Marcus really is that good. The entire first half (or more) of the game consists of Marcus blitzing as far ahead as he can and everyone else clearing his path or killing scraps. Though I haven't actually tried the game without Marcus, the amount of work he does means he saves huge amounts of turns. He saves at least one in 12, probably 3 or so in 13, probably at least 5-6 in 14 (whatever it would take to finish the rout in the rain, as Marcus can avoid it). Florina is likely more important in 16, but she needs to transport someone across to obliterate everything, and the best option is Marcus. 17 and 18 are more Marcus blitz, Marcus is the best choice for Uhai in 19 since he can kill on Turn 4 (still trying to get that recorded without messing up though). 19 and 20 are more Marcus, and to say Marcus already saved 20 turns by the time Ninian joins is probably an understatement. And he's still your best combat unit at this point in the game, so this pattern continues.

Not that Ninian isn't amazing, but being in a ~20 turn hole compared to Marcus at jointime is tough to dig out of.

[Galenforcer]

But isn't the fact that Ninian can be used in conjuction with Marcus that ultimately saves more turns? She also has rings that can help take out the tough bosses or survive huge crowds of enemies and she benefits to the EXP rank for dancing every turn. Despite Marcus saving turns for the first half, you can save even more turns using Ninian and giving Marcus another move, allowing to rush even more.

[Anouleth]

But isn't the fact that Ninian can be used in conjuction with Marcus that ultimately saves more turns? She also has rings that can help take out the tough bosses or survive huge crowds of enemies and she benefits to the EXP rank for dancing every turn. Despite Marcus saving turns for the first half, you can save even more turns using Ninian and giving Marcus another move, allowing to rush even more.

If you haven't quite noticed, these ratings don't take Ranks into account.

Edited December 5, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth