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dondon151
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Hawkeye strategy is reliable. I KO'd Vaida on my HNM run (wish I didn't, I could have used a statbooster if I had just let her join) and I'm assuming that there's not much of a difference between HNM and HHM when it comes to Vaida's stats and her Uber Spear.

That doesn't necessarily make it reliable. If you've got an 80% chance of KOing her and a 20% chance of dying yourself (for example, though I know the best outcome is both your characters and her living), then more often than not you'd live through it. I still wouldn't call it reliable at that point.

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With Marcus, Hector, and Oswin dominating the enemy phases, getting 110 WEXP is actually kind of hard. Marcus goes from A to S lances in the span of like, 4 chapters, but Dorcas takes many times longer, and the Silver Axe doesn't really help all that much. He gets to OHKO magic users and PKs... and that's about it.

You wouldn't suggest letting Marcus S Axes?

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You wouldn't suggest letting Marcus S Axes?

You'd probably be better off having Marcus use lances than axes in early game. Javelins are more accurate and don't weigh him down, plus Silver Lance for bosses. Nothing wrong with S Axes inherently, just that getting there is longer and requires using worse weapons.

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You'd probably be better off having Marcus use lances than axes in early game. Javelins are more accurate and don't weigh him down, plus Silver Lance for bosses. Nothing wrong with S Axes inherently, just that getting there is longer and requires using worse weapons.

Earlygame is where Marcus's speed advantage over enemies is most potent, and the slight loss from Hand Axe is not worrisome. You'll definitely still be using Silver Lance on bosses and enemies you can't otherwise kill, but on common chumps an Iron Axe is more than sufficient. If find that supplementing Axe poor hit rate with the S Rank bonus is better for me than giving yet more accuracy to the fairly accurate lances. Finally, if we consider using the S Rank weapons at Endgame, which there's no reason not to due to no Funds rank, there's way more competition for the Lance than there is for Basilikos. For my (not maximally efficient, but fairly decent) draft run only took him till Noble Lady to hit S in Axe, compared to maybe Peddler Merlinus or something for S Lance (not sure).

To be fair, I haven't given a full weigh in on the opportunity costs to go for Axes over Lances, but I would have thought it still a viable option.

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The scale does go from 0 to 10, not 1 to 10 correct? Rebecca is largely useless, but chipping earlygame is probably a point better than whatever Nino does.

Wonder how Wallace will go, since recruiting him is not worth the turns (and he will usually die unless Knight Crested in LM). Karla might have a similar issue, though a few levels into Bartre isn't too much trouble. I guess even without the recruitment cost they're in the 0-0.5 range, so it might not matter much.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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That doesn't necessarily make it reliable. If you've got an 80% chance of KOing her and a 20% chance of dying yourself (for example, though I know the best outcome is both your characters and her living), then more often than not you'd live through it. I still wouldn't call it reliable at that point.

You don't have to KO Vaida. Just draw her out on turn 10 and someone can fly up to the armory on turn 11. Hawkeye only has to survive 2 enemy phases, he's 3HKO'd and faces 0 crit, and he only has a 15% chance of being hit anyway.

Earlygame is where Marcus's speed advantage over enemies is most potent, and the slight loss from Hand Axe is not worrisome. You'll definitely still be using Silver Lance on bosses and enemies you can't otherwise kill, but on common chumps an Iron Axe is more than sufficient. If find that supplementing Axe poor hit rate with the S Rank bonus is better for me than giving yet more accuracy to the fairly accurate lances. Finally, if we consider using the S Rank weapons at Endgame, which there's no reason not to due to no Funds rank, there's way more competition for the Lance than there is for Basilikos. For my (not maximally efficient, but fairly decent) draft run only took him till Noble Lady to hit S in Axe, compared to maybe Peddler Merlinus or something for S Lance (not sure).

To be fair, I haven't given a full weigh in on the opportunity costs to go for Axes over Lances, but I would have thought it still a viable option.

-1 AS is kind of big for Marcus, though. Chapter 14 cavaliers are already 6-8 AS, and Marcus won't double 2/3 of the map with Hand Axe. They also have 6-7 AS in chapter 16 (on top of swords), and Marcus is more likely around 4/0 than 5/0, so a lower chance at 12 spd. Chapter 20, they're 7-8 AS, and most of them have swords as well.

Javelins also aren't accurate to the point of reliable, even with Marcus's 15 base skl. He only has 104 base hit. Even at --/9, which is what I had him at chapter 20, he would have 113 hit against nomads with 20 avo. Now, 93 hit is pretty reliable, but given the amount of combat Marcus has to face, I would rather make hitting more of a sure thing with Javelins than improving the likelihood with Hand Axes. And, what if they have terrain bonuses?

The scale does go from 0 to 10, not 1 to 10 correct? Rebecca is largely useless, but chipping earlygame is probably a point better than whatever Nino does.

Wonder how Wallace will go, since recruiting him is not worth the turns (and he will usually die unless Knight Crested in LM). Karla might have a similar issue, though a few levels into Bartre isn't too much trouble. I guess even without the recruitment cost they're in the 0-0.5 range, so it might not matter much.

Yes, 0 to 10.

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Earlygame is where Marcus's speed advantage over enemies is most potent, and the slight loss from Hand Axe is not worrisome. You'll definitely still be using Silver Lance on bosses and enemies you can't otherwise kill, but on common chumps an Iron Axe is more than sufficient. If find that supplementing Axe poor hit rate with the S Rank bonus is better for me than giving yet more accuracy to the fairly accurate lances. Finally, if we consider using the S Rank weapons at Endgame, which there's no reason not to due to no Funds rank, there's way more competition for the Lance than there is for Basilikos. For my (not maximally efficient, but fairly decent) draft run only took him till Noble Lady to hit S in Axe, compared to maybe Peddler Merlinus or something for S Lance (not sure).

To be fair, I haven't given a full weigh in on the opportunity costs to go for Axes over Lances, but I would have thought it still a viable option.

Basilikos weighs Marcus down, and he really doesn't have the luxury of taking AS penalties. Even at max level he only has 16 speed, and taking -2 just increases the number of enemies that double him.

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Priscilla

Advantages

Staves: Everything that I've said about Serra and staves, I can say the same thing about Priscilla. Supply is low and demand is high for an earlygame and midgame staff user, and this increases the value of Priscilla's contribution.

Mounted: Not only can Priscilla use staves, but she can perform rescue operations, making her one of the best support units in the game (and in fact, the only mounted staff user). Simply put, the duality of staves and mount allows Priscilla to be always doing something that increases efficiency. Staff and mount abilities build off each other as well; Priscilla can keep up with 7-8 move mounted units and heal them before Physics become available, and has greater ease moving across different parts of the map. Even after buyable Physics negate the need for movement to heal allies, Priscilla has a clear advantage in restoring or buffing allies midbattle with Restore and Barrier, respectively, and is the best user of Torch and Unlock due to having the best range.

Availability: Priscilla is less available than her primary competitor, Serra, but she is still one of the only reliable staff users that the player will have for a long while, and assumes similar importance.

Disadvantages:

EXP gain: Like Serra, Priscilla is pretty much limited to gaining 11-12 EXP per turn until more expensive staves become available. As a result, Priscilla will be struggling to reach even 10/0 for promotion in a reasonable timeframe. A base level of 3/0 doesn't help, either.

No combat: Also like Serra, Priscilla cannot fight unpromoted, and enemy phases where she enters combat are enemy phases wasted. Having more movement does give Priscilla more flexibility than Serra in positioning, however. Priscilla's 10/1 combat parameters are pretty bad as well, with 15.8 atk, 10.8 AS with Fire being only slightly better than Serra's 10/1 combat parameters.

Promotion: Guiding Ring competition has already been touched upon in Erk's analysis. However, Priscilla doesn't mind being unpromoted, and it takes her awhile to get to a promotion-ready level, anyway, but she definitely wants to be promoted before the endgame maps that start around chapter 29 - 1 mounted move does occasionally make a difference at this point in the game, particularly in staff heavy maps such as chapters 29, 32, and Final.

Summary

Priscilla is the best of, well, two worlds, and as such, she is a unit that deserves a deployment slot in any efficient playthrough. Not only that, but the only map in which Priscilla should probably not be deployed is chapter 30 (and even that is debatable), which is a testament to how good of a unit she is - few units can claim to be useful enough to deserve a virtually permanent deployment slot. She is not particularly dependent on stats, and therefore doesn't require the resources that most other combat units need, but at the same time provides a more unique form of utility than any of them that can't be duplicated by any other character in the game.

Score: 9.0

Lyn

Advantages

Mani Katti: Lyn's saving grace. The Mani Katti is an excellent prf weapon, with parameters equal or superior to the Steel Sword, but with the bonus of effective damage against knights and cavalry. Lyn's str is not usually high enough to be able to cleanly 2HKO knights - 11/0 Lyn in chapter 20 has 8 str for 10 x2 HP damage to a 28 HP, 12 def knight - but the weapon's 20 base crit occasionally converts 3HKOs into ORKOs. In that particular instance, Lyn has 26 crit for a 45.2% chance at an ORKO. Cavaliers are less bulky defensively, with the most defensive ones having 28 HP, 8 def, a clean 2HKO for Lyn even with WTD. The Mani Katti is so versatile that it should be Lyn's weapon of choice against mostly everything, as she does not have enough str to 2HKO even 21 HP, 3 def mages in chapter 20 with an Iron Sword, and cannot double them with a Steel Sword due to her low con (10 AS vs. 7 AS). The enhanced crit rate also occasionally saves Lyn from taking a counter, which is important given her low durability parameters. 45 uses will last for almost her entire unpromoted lifetime, even with exclusive use, and by the time the weapon breaks, Lyn will have access to other methods of enhancing her offense.

Attack speed: Lyn has a fairly high 9 spd base with a 60% spd growth, and despite her low con, she will never need to use another weapon outside of the Mani Katti (maybe the Killing Edge, but that's only -2 AS). The enemy types that she will miss doubling until around chapter 20, though, are mercenaries, myrmidons, and nomads, who have 11-13 AS as soon as chapter 17 - Lyn needs to be anywhere from 11/0 to 15/0 to double them on average. High AS lategame lets her double enemies like 15-17 AS heroes in chapter 29, although Lyn has trouble dealing damage to their 44 HP, 15 def.

Lyn mode: Lyn's non Lyn mode 4/0 bases are terrible for chapter 16, but her 8/0 stats are significantly better. Most importantly, the extra HP lets her escape being OHKO'd by 19 atk lance users (there are already two of those in chapter 17), and the extra str allows her to 2HKO cavaliers faster.

Forced deployment: Being a lord, Lyn is forced in a couple of arbitrary maps, and is free to help out at no cost.

Disadvantages

Sword lock: Lyn cannot attack from 2 range, which has two major implications: one is that she'll often take a counter when attacking, and the other is that she can't counter from 2 range on enemy phase. The former is compounded by her poor durability, which limits her attacking options to only the safest of opportunities; the latter prevents her from utilizing her fairly good offense on enemy phases (although even if she did have 2 range, her enemy phases would also be hampered by her poor durability). It does not help that she only gets bows on promotion, which does not solve her enemy phase problems.

Physical durability: 16 HP, 2 def are arguably the worst physically defensive bases in the entire game, and 70% HP, 20% def growths do not compensate in the long run. It would have been forgivable had Lyn been able to attack on player phases without risk of counter, as units like Erk and Lucius have similarly atrocious physically defensive bases but also the option to attack safely at 2 range, but Lyn is locked to swords and thus requires healing after most attempted attacks barring a miss or an OHKO. This problem is somewhat alleviated later in the game by a number of factors, including a potential +3 HP, +3 def upon promotion and the introduction of buyable Lancereavers for doubled WTA against enemy types like WKs and knights.

Promotion: Like Eliwood, Lyn is restricted to promoting in chapter 26 at the earliest, which is later than most other units. Should the player need a quick 10000 G to buy killer weapons in the chapter 26 armory, it is probably a wiser choice to pass up her promotion and go for the killers instead. Finally, Eliwood gets superior promotion gains and is a better choice for the first Heaven Seal if being used.

Summary

Lyn's naturally high AS, in conjunction with the Mani Katti, make for an offensively proficient unit that most earlygame units can't actually match for awhile, but her durability problems and sword lock severely restrict her offensive potential. Lyn's advantages allow for situational utility, but her disadvantages prevent her from being a good unit to use for efficient play in the long run.

Score: 4.5

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A lot of these kinds of character rating threads claim to judge on an efficiency basis, but are made by users who haven't actually played through the game with the most efficient options available.

...I find that insulting, assuming you include me into that bunch. :(

It's nice to see a ranking topic from someone who's opinion I actually care about!

Same as above.

I am not over yet.

Hah. I turn my back for a few days. And now you attempt to overthrow me. I am not over yet. 8D

But, good luck, anyway. I find it kind of pointless to continue mine when yours are so much more detailed.

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...I find that insulting, assuming you include me into that bunch. :(

Well, the point that I was getting at was that I'm not going to treat every character like they're usable. In fact, for most of the units written so far, I've mentioned that they don't deserve to be used in the long run.

It was also an attempt to justify the arbitrary lategame levels that I had. You're probably not going to see a single 20/-- character mentioned anywhere in this thread, aside from maybe Hector.

(And lastly, it was also a thinly veiled insult at certain users who think they know what they're doing, but actually don't.)

Edited by dondon151
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(And lastly, it was also a thinly veiled insult at certain users who think they know what they're doing, but actually don't.)

I always know what I'm doing. I'm best at closing my eyes, pretending I know what I'm doing, and hope for the best.

Hehe.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to the Raven rating in particular, probably because I have this weird hint of feeling that you're going to give him something like a 7/10.

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I wouldn't be too surprised. Most of what he does is self-improvement since he can't keep up very well (although apparently he's pretty important for 23x). I'd think there's a gap between him and Lowen, so probably an 8 or less. Could be wrong though.

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Raven is one of the few guys in this game with great AS, Atk, AND 1-2 range after promotion. He should be getting an 8 or higher. Sure, he's not on a horse, but he has better combat parameters than anyone on a horse barring Marcus.

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Well, the point that I was getting at was that I'm not going to treat every character like they're usable. In fact, for most of the units written so far, I've mentioned that they don't deserve to be used in the long run.

So I guess what differ from our ratings are that yours is based on Maximum effeciency, while mine is more of a Casual effeciency basis. This is good, so our ratings aren't much of the same, despite high detail difference. =P

I'll be reading them as you keep updating. In the mean time, I'll be trying to update my own ratings as soon as I get the time. You've done well enough. 8]

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I really wanted Kent and Sain to be in the same post, so...

Wil

Advantages

Chapter 16: As much as I'd hate to say it, this is pretty much the only point in the game where Wil is useful. With just his normal 4/0 bases, 6 str yields 24 effective atk with a Steel Bow, which is 2 HP short of OHKOing a couple of 21 HP, 5 def PKs near Lyn's starting position. By purchasing a Steel Bow on turn 1 and positioning Wil on the tile between the house, vendor, and forest, Wil can almost kill two birds with one stone and free up Kent and Sain to save the Heavy Spear village. Due to his starting position and the prevalence of forest tiles on this map, though, Wil can't really do much else.

Lyn mode: If Wil gets to 6/0 in Lyn mode, he'll have 8 str, enough to OHKO both PKs.

Disadvantages

Offense: Wil's str is decent, but not spectacular, with a 6 base and 50% growth. The problem lies in his spd - with 5 base and 40% growth, he needs to be at least 15/0 to double a slow end weighed down midgame WK (6 AS). Alternatively, Wil can promote at 10/0 for the same AS, but significantly reduced EXP gain makes it difficult for him to keep up. At least he can 2HKO a 30 HP, 12 def WK with 29 effective atk using a Killer Bow, and 21 atk using a Brave Bow is just enough to 2HKO 30 HP, 6 def mercenaries.

Enemy phase: As stated before, no enemy phase means less opportunities to contribute to efficiency and less opportunities at EXP gain.

Rate of EXP gain: Like Rebecca, Wil is primarily going to be weakening enemies for other units to KO safely, and combined with only getting one chance at attack per turn at best, he is going to encounter extreme difficulties leveling up.

Summary

I have to admit, with the relative abundance of resources that bow users get starting around midgame, Wil actually has a bit more potential than a lot of players give him credit for. Unfortunately, he doesn't have earlygame forced deployment like Rebecca has, and his relatively weak player phase only attacks (compared to magic users... and lance and axe users) strongly discourage any long-term, or even short-term use. For the sake of efficiency, leave him on the bench. KOing those two PKs in chapter 16 is likely the most that one can get out of him.

Score: 0.5

Kent

Advantages

Offense: Kent's offensive prowess stems from his above average spd, which has 7 base and 45% growth. In chapter 17, the map after he joins, it's not unlikely that he will be 10/0 with around 11 spd on average, enough to double most of the 7/0 7 AS Iron Bow archers on the map as long as he isn't weighed down. Kent's earlygame AS advantage is also significant in chapter 20, where at 12/0, he will have almost 12 spd on average, enough to double most cavaliers on the map as long as he isn't weighed down. Aside from these circumstances, however, Kent's spd lead over his compatriot, Sain, isn't very significant - Sain is fast enough to double the same enemies that Kent can (exception noted below), and Kent generally isn't fast enough to double the faster promoted enemies, such as heroes. Kent is a little lacking in the atk department, unfortunately, as he lacks the ability to 2HKO chapter 26 WKs - at 16/3, Kent will have 24.8 atk with a Lancereaver after WTA against 32 HP, 12 def, which is significantly short of a 2HKO. He does have the extra spd cushion to sacrifice AS for more atk, and at 16/4, with 16.1 spd on average, -5 AS from Steel Axe puts him borderline on doubling 6-7 AS Steel Lance WKs, but 26.2 atk after WTA still falls short of a 2HKO. One last thing to note is that of the three cavaliers, Kent is the only one who has a chance at doubling mercenaries - 16/5 Kent has a 16.55 spd average to a chapter 27 mercenary's 11-13 AS.

Mounted: Earlygame, Kent keeps up with the steamrolling juggernaut known as Marcus and gets the opportunity to grab KOs that Marcus missed. It also makes him ideal for performing alternate combat tasks, as Marcus can't be everywhere at once - for example, as your units approach the throne room in chapter 17, Kent can KO the thieves or occupy the archer reinforcements while Marcus is free to progress. Given the lack of anything else to do, Kent can also help rescue and drop an infantry unit for future purpose. Lastly, higher mobility increases combat exposure and leads to a slightly higher rate of EXP gain.

Weapon triangle: Kent gets full weapon triangle control upon promotion and has the spd cushion to use all weapon types without noticeable drawbacks (Steel Axes are a bit too much, though). The ability to leverage -1 atk, -15 hit is important in order to buffer Kent's rather average durability.

Lyn mode: Kent's 5/0 bases are honestly not much better than Lowen's 2/0 bases five chapters earlier, but Kent can reasonably reach 9/0 in Lyn mode, which provides a physical durability buffer and puts him near the doubling threshold. He is also a fairly good candidate for the Energy Ring, which puts him neatly at a 2HKO against WKs in chapter 26. As Kent will be doubling fairly often, the Energy Ring is a good investment for him, typically adding 4 HP damage per round of combat.

Disadvantages

Physical durability: Kent's physical durability is not bad, only average; I am only bringing it up because it is a notable disadvantage compared to Lowen, a primary competitor. Using chapter 18 as a point of comparison, 11/0 Kent has 28.5 HP, 7.5 def on average to 11/0 Lowen's 31.1 HP, 10.6 def. Most mercenaries on the map have 16 atk after WTD, which 4HKOs Kent but 6-7HKOs Lowen. Steel Bow nomads in chapter 19 have similar atk values. As a result, Lowen's physical durability lead makes him more flexible, as he is able to engage in more rounds of combat on average per enemy phase. Kent's disadvantage becomes negligible later on, due to a combination of weapon triangle control, access to reaver weapons, and a fair +2 HP, +2 def on promotion. If we take him to be 16/4 in chapter 26, he has 37.3 HP, 11.5 def against 22-23 atk Steel Lance WKs after WTD, which is barely a 4HKO - they also only have about 38 displayed hit with WTD, or 29.3 true hit, for a 0.74% chance of actually hitting Kent four times consecutively.

Promotion: Not much of a disadvantage, as Kent's lategame performance justifies his consumption of a Knight Crest, but since I mentioned competition issues for Lowen, I should mention it here as well.

Summary

Just based on raw combat parameters, Kent is already an above average unit, and the addition of a mount makes him a must use on any efficient playthrough. Innate cavalier and paladin traits give Kent a lot of flexibility to work around his shortcomings.

Score: 8.5

Sain

Advantages

Offense: Unlike Kent, Sain's offensive ability comes from his high atk. 8 base str is above average, and 60% str growth is tied for the highest in the game. Even Marcus has trouble OHKOing enemies without silver weapons, so one shouldn't expect Sain to be able to do that either (at 11/0 with 14 str on average, he can just barely OHKO a chapter 17 23 HP, 3 def myrmidon using a Steel Lance, but that's about it). Regardless, doing more damage is always helpful, as it increases flexibility with KO combinations. Sain's str truly begins to shine later in the game, when his spd is also high enough to permit him to double consistently. While 16/4 Kent has trouble 2HKOing chapter 26 WKs, 16/4 Sain has no such problem, averaging 28.8 atk with an Iron Axe after WTA against 32 HP, 12 def. He'll also have 14.2 AS, enough to double even the higher end 10 AS Iron Lance WKs. The tradeoff is that Sain normally would not be able to double the earlygame enemy types that Kent can double, such as some 7 AS archers in chapter 17 and 8 AS cavaliers in chapter 20, in addition to the lategame mercenaries referred to in Kent's analysis.

Mounted: Basically, see Kent.

Weapon triangle: Also see Kent. A couple of things that I can add about Sain is that the +1 atk can occasionally let Sain reach 2HKO on WKs with a Hand Axe, as Sain is extremely borderline on the 2HKO and enemy stat fluctuations can put him out of reach. +15 hit also offsets his low natural hit.

Lyn mode: Sain's 4/0 bases are also lackluster for chapter 16, but he, like Kent, can also reasonably be entering chapter 16 at 9/0. Sain does not need the Energy Ring, as his str is high enough as is.

Disadvantages

Physical durability: Also see Kent. Sain and Kent's physical durability bases and growths are nearly identical.

Promotion: Again... see Kent.

Summary

Everything that one can say about Kent, he can say about Sain as well. Sain's huge str lead edges out Kent lategame, where both can consistently double the same enemy types (except mercenaries), but Sain has no issues 2HKOing WKs while Kent can't reach the 2HKO even with stronger weapons. Also a staple in an efficient playthrough.

Score: 8.5

Edited by dondon151
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Why would Lowen want a crest? You're basically combining the problems of Sain's speed with Kent's strength later on, except he'll be even worse than that. Great, he's got durability, but I doubt he'll be busting out the real offensive power needed. I don't think there's any question that Sain and Kent are the ones nabbing those crests.

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Why would Lowen want a crest? You're basically combining the problems of Sain's speed with Kent's strength later on, except he'll be even worse than that. Great, he's got durability, but I doubt he'll be busting out the real offensive power needed. I don't think there's any question that Sain and Kent are the ones nabbing those crests.

You're right; I wasn't clear enough with the implication that Kent and Sain are better options than Lowen. I've edited that in now.

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I am very curious to see how the pope evaluates Florina. I am also a bit surprised all 3 cavaliers got the same score. I was expecting either Lowen to be 0.5 behind or Sain to be 0.5 ahead.

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Yes...it's not like Lowen equals them at combat. That is the only thing that should separate them. I gave him an 8, while Kent got an 8.5, and Sain an 8.8.

By the way, why are we promoting our Cavaliers or a few other units early? Some of the, especially the Paladins, get crappy promotion gains. Unless the +1 Spd actually makes a difference in their performance, or because of the +1 Mov.

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Yes...it's not like Lowen equals them at combat. That is the only thing that should separate them. I gave him an 8, while Kent got an 8.5, and Sain an 8.8.

By the way, why are we promoting our Cavaliers or a few other units early? Some of the, especially the Paladins, get crappy promotion gains. Unless the +1 Spd actually makes a difference in their performance, or because of the +1 Mov.

I'd say the major contributing factors are the 1 Spd/2 Con, 1 mov, and Axes. Possibly also the ability to S rank Lances.

Edited by Sadistic Fox
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I say giving them time to hit lvl 20 isn't a bad idea. Or at least wait up to lvl 15-16, so they gain around 11 AS to double alot of enemies. Marcus and Isadora can wait a while around midgame until they promote.

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