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FE6 Resource Allocation Topic

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Talked a bit over with Seven Deadly Sins, and what with how he just rebumped his FE7 Alocation Topic, figured I would do another one. That, and I had a good time with the first one I did for FE10, and it sparked a lot of discussion. FE6 has been feeling a lull lately, so I figured why not breathe new life into FE6 discussion?

Now, like my FE10 topic and SDS's FE7 topic, do treat this as a sort of connecting topic to the tier list. Unless you have a suggestion as to best put a certain resource to use that would help in a run of efficiency, do not post anything silly here (as in, do not assume a wing on Walt in order to "help him get over his speed problems sooner".). I will not tolerate discussion getting clogged up over such things, and I will put you on an ignore list if it has to come down to it.

Now, there was another bit of thing being new discussion lately, that being max efficiency and casual efficiency debates going on. I will attempt to satisfy both worlds here. I will of course list the best use of resources for max efficiency (since in FE6, the answers to max efficiency are more obvious due to it's gigantic maps and the way FE6's units are uhh...statted), and at the same time if I see a use for a resource on a unit in hte case of casual efficiency (as in not assuming you're just bumrushing Roy to the throne and generally having your whole team be fliers just for transportation's sake while you have like 3 units doing actual work), I will make note of that character with a (Casual Efficiency Only) along their name.

That being said, let's kick things off.

Chapter 4 Angel Robe Due to the fact you get this at the end of chapter 4 (or might as well count it as such), the results of using it don't really pop out until chapter 5. As for competition, I can't exactly say there are catfights over this thing. The cantidates for this one are most likely fairly obvious.

Rutger-Now even in chapter 4 there is use for this on him, namely when it comes to killing Eric. It allows him to take 2 shots from Eric without dying (which is otherwise impossible unless you not only get lucky with Rutger proccing 6 Def, but Eric has to be using his Javelin which will render Rutger to a WTD). This affords him a full turn to deal a decisive blow to Eric with his Killing Edge, whch in terms of bumrushing, could save us that turn, or otherwise make Rutger's job safer in bosskilling. Now with the more noticeable stuff in chapter 5, it lets him take 2 shots from iron axers without dying (they're not going to hit him anyways, but it still kills risk), 4HKOd by iron mercs, 3RKOd by 19 ATK Steel mercs, allows him to take the iron and steel nomads without dying (and he would be their most likely target), and the effects of the Robe remain as he levels so it can only help his long run. Even saves his long term if you choose to promote him early.

Allen or Lance-I'd venture they'd be between level 6 and level 8 by the time it's chapter 5. Which case they'd get similar results from Rutger, except more profound due to 2 reasons. 1. They have more move, so they're hte ones more often than not taking the brunt of the attack so they'd appreciate it more. 2. Weapon control allows them to manipulate the triangle better for some more passive defensive boosts, amplifying the boost that the Robe gives. This is especially true for when they promote and get axes, as lategame is filled with lancers.

Roy (Casual Efficiency Only)-I only say Casual, because in most max efficient runs I would venture that Roy for the most part is just taxi'd to the throne every chapter, and thus should never enter combat to begin with. In a more normalized run, he's going to want some help staying alive, since due to the fact he has to go towards the throne, he will most likely be taxid by his cavaliers so he will more likely than anyone else be on the frontlines with the horses. He's not an offensive killface like Rutger, but I would do well to want to make keeping Roy alive as painless as possible. A level 7 Roy gets similar effects out of the robe as Rutger would. Allows him to very nearly take 2 hits from steel knights in chapter 6 (one would have to have 20 Atk though), which means Roy can have an easier time putting that Rapier to good use. Also, lets him easier survive the hellhole that is the lance-using-cavalier filled chapter 7. This also has a future effect when it comes to hte more problematic enemies of the later portions of the game, namely those that use spells like Bolting or Purge. It helps with him being less likely to get OHKOd with or without barrier/water, and thus allows him to not rely on hiding in the rescue pouch of one of his horsemen, allowing them to fight and charge forward without being weighed down OR being a target to sniper magic themselves.

Chapter 6 Goddess Icon-Now I recall that not all treasure is possible if we're max turning, but if we happen to nab this one it is still multi-use in how one wants to use it. Enemies can actually have some crit on you, because not all your units are lucky enough to not worry about it. This isn't FE7. Now if you're feeling comfortable with the odds, you can still sell it for 4K, but if you're not? Might as well.

Rutger-Rutger's an evasive guy, but he's not the luckiest. The occasional merc is going to have some crit chance on our badass swordmaster, and I would like it if my main bosskiller were not just blicked by some random hodunk merc. Do yourself a favor.

Bank Account-4K never hurts anyone. It's another pair of Boots later.

Chapter 7 Hero Crest-Now saving it up to promote at a good level is a no brainer, and I shouldn't have to spell that out for anyone. I bring it up because of the idea of early promoting someone. Promoting as soon as you set eyes on it. Not everyone benefits, and it's not of complete benefit for the people who do put an early promo to good use, but here are some notable ones.

Rutger-Yup, first three resources, and Rutger wouldn't mind getting his grubby mitts on them. Lets look over the boosts he gets. +1 move means he's only 1 off your cavs, so he will not need transportation as much, and due to his still manageable con, he can still be transported with ease. +5 HP and +3 Def is nothing to scoff at, giving him a significant durability increase (Especially with Robe on top). +2 Str on a guy with only 30% Str is quite significant. More speed and con? Yes please. But the most notable gain is +30 crit. You know of the bosses of chapter 8 and 8x? They are several kinds of annoying to kill quick. +30 crit makes this task significantly easier. At lvl 10, he has close to his caps in speed and skill, so promoting him early hardly kills his potential. With the robe, it also is like promoting him nearly at level 20 regardless. So in the long run, all we at most likely lost is 1 Def and Str once we start getting to a point where unpromoted Rutger would be levels ahead promoted Rutger. That is to say, you essentially lose nothing with promoting Rutger early, and only make the early portions that much easier.

Deick-He is such a baller with his badass bases and his high level base. With how much ass he kicks and how high his level already is, he could be about level 12 by the time you nab this thing. +4 to HP and Def is already awesome, as is +2 Speed for a guy who has some issues doubling in the western isles, but that's hardly the biggest benefit. Access to hand axes allows him to counter whatever dares aim in his general direction with about 19 mt, which essentially has him turn on god mode for chapter 8 with killing every soldier archer and mage in the chapter, severely wounding anything else while still having access to excellent swords and building axe rank he normally wouldn't get with a later promotion. This does come with a price though. +2 speed is great sooner, but he will feel the effects of early promotion later. His speed growth is kinda rubbish, and leveling slower will not help it in the long run. You are essentially trading later functionality for sooner power (as this allows him to have no trouble doubling in the Western Isles, a place that tends to be annoying, cramped, and filled with axe users for him to mow down). Rutger's a much safer bet, but Deick can get something out of it too.

For both, this allows them sooner access to Durandal and the Silver Sword, both of which is greatly appreciated.

Chapter 8 Elysian Whip-I only mention this because it is there. It only exists for Thany, and it's an option for her to early promote for somewhat better combat in the isels. She is the only one able to use it at this time, and you get plenty more whips for later units. The end.

Chapter 8 Secret Book-Just sell it. They'll never be good for anything but. Would you take +4 hit and +1 Crit over +2 Move? Didn't think so.

Well...Seven Deadly Sins brings up one point, but I think it only qualifies as casual only.

Gonzales (Casual only)-This is kinda borderline, because acc is a very fickle thing. You are merely increasing the odds in your favor, but odds are still odds. The reason Gonzales needs this, in case you didn't know and are completely new to FE6, is that Gonzales is probably the only unit in the entire series who is statistically utterly ridiculous, but comes with the major fault of having noticeably shitty acc. He might be the only character that warrents the use of a Secret Book. If you want better odds in Gonzales whipping some ass, let him eat a secret book (because he can't read).

Chapter 8 Guiding Ring-Hoo boy. Not really an item that has profound effects, but it's not hard to guess who wants it most.

Saul-Due to the fact that he is not only already level 5 on arrival (high level base for a staffer), and he has C staffs (hello Barrier EXP), he can get to level 10 far easier than the other healers. This can help during hte islands for when Light Magic decides to show itself. While not ORKOing and murdering faces, it does give Saul some form of chipping (14 might with 14 AS ain't bad. Could be better, but it's certainly helping at the moment), and his leveling isn't really killed since now not only can he get in some combat, he levels up like he's got Paragon. If anything, this can only level him faster and make him stronger than he would be normally. But this is not the good part as to why Saul wants this ring. The earlier utility certanly helps, but he wants it for the staff bolstering for when we get the Warp Staff. Due to his C base, and Warp being A rank, he is your only possible early warper thanks to the rank boost promotion gives. This can be extremely handy for 14x being a pain in the ass, or 16 for generally how much you just need to get done. I'd venture throwing a thief into a treasure room than going in the normal way is quicker and more likely to nab you goodies you wouldn't normally get in time, or towards Narshen to nab the Gem and Shield. Warp's just good like that.

Clarine(Casual Only)-It's similar reasons for Rutger, though with some key major differences. The similarities are that she barely loses anything out of it. Her magic growth sucked anyways, she's always gonna be super fast and super lucky, and nothing's saving her durability any time soon. Might as well promote her early. The differences though are that we are A. Getting a staff user higher staff rank faster AND some form of attack, a horse unit with +1 move for better transportation, and she gets to build rank faster for Anima magic, which means possible Aircalibur in the future (possible, im not certain about this as weapon rank grows painfully slow in this game). n the least, the better magic sooner should help what would otherwise be pisspoor magic.

Chapter 8 Knight Crest-I wouldn't exactly say this has too much benefit from early use. It's possible, but I wouldn't think it's THAT big a deal for the ones that really want to use this. This one crest is also very valuable, as it's the only Knight's Crest you get for a good while.

Allen or Lance-Allen and Lance have some fishiness during the Western Isles portion. Allen has similar doubling issues as Deick has here. The +2 clears that right up. Lance's issue however is in his Str, of which the +2 also helps clear that up. The con to use Steel Swords withotu speed loss also helps, especially in a place with a lot of axe users with a lot of health, and are easy to double on. Helping a cavalier kick more ass is guaranteed to move you along quicker.

Noah (Casual Only)-This is more to bring him to par with the other 2, but it's not like he can't get functionality. Build swords up until the islands, promote him (his base level is 7, he might struggle to get there soon enough, but eh, close enough), essentially trying to get him to A swords after promotion. He will have as much speed as Allen would after promotion, but he will be tougher, and he will have chapter 9's Silver Sword to make up for the huge Str gap. That is...If you can get him to A swords by that point. I say this is casual only, because Noah's growths might not be good enough to mitigate his slower leveling speed.

No...Not bringing up Barth. I think we all know how my FE6 playlog went. Even on a casual basis, +40 turns in 16 and getting ORKOd by a bolting mage is unforgivable. To think I was keeping up with Colonel's time...up until that damned chapter. I would say 16 was the fault of me simply unable to plan well for that chapter (we all agree it sucks), but chapter 16x...ORKOd when no one else is, and not having hte move to avoid the issue while moving ahead without being rescued...Of which was then impossible due to horses promoting and even unpromoted, Barth is a big fatass bastard who's too big to rescue from there on...

So there's a good start I feel. Feel free to bring up mentions on if other things should be considered special resources, and of course your own (hopefully intelligent) opinions on the ones listed currently.

Chapter 10/B-13: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24045&view=findpost&p=1387778

Chapter 14-17: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24045&view=findpost&p=1388163

Edited by Amaterasu

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I might question the use of the guiding ring on Clarine since she likely won't reach level 10 for a long time. I think Dondon's 0% growth runs had her promote at something like chapter 16.

Lugh derives some benefit out of it as it immediately helps his durability out so he no longer gets 1HKOed by steel axe users in the isles.

Additionally, he gets staves so you have another healer which always helps the team overall and gives him more time to build staff rank to that crucial C (though unlikely) in time for the status staff using druids in the last few chapters. That air caliber in chapter 12 that potentially could be out of his reach in terms of weapon level is absolved with an early promotion. Lugh's speed growth is good enough that promoting somewhat earlier won't really hurt him that much, and being forced to wait until chapter 14 or 16 is annoying. 15/1 Lugh has 14 attack speed which is probably what unpromoted Dieck probably has at this point, which is probably sufficient until lategame. Out of all your magic users, Lugh probably is the only one near promotion level by the time you get it anyway since staves are ridiculously slow to level with

If Ray is being used, he also derives immediate benefit too. He becomes much more usable since he effectively gains +3 AS (1 con and +2speed and all tomes weigh him down) and is able to use staves which are useful always.

If you use Ellen, Saul, AND Clarine for some reason, chapter 14X and 15 lets you have marginally better warp staff users (which probably won't make a difference anyway, but still exists as theoretical marginal benefit)

Edited by Brighton

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You should really just say that any sold stat boosters can be rebought as Boots later on in chapter 21.

Good point, but I didn't really feel a need to get specific. The player should know to have money for boots later, and that the gold stockpiled from such sold stuff helps in this effort. I didn't think I'd have to spell it out.

I might question the use of the guiding ring on Clarine since she likely won't reach level 10 for a long time. I think Dondon's 0% growth runs had her promote at something like chapter 16.

I'd still save the ring anyways.

Lugh derives some benefit out of it as it immediately helps his durability out so he no longer gets 1HKOed by steel axe users in the isles.

Why is Lou getting attacked in the first place? Sure it's nice he's not OHKOd, but really...

Additionally, he gets staves so you have another healer which always helps the team overall and gives him more time to build staff rank to that crucial C (though unlikely) in time for the status staff using druids in the last few chapters.

I have my doubts that Lou can get to 10 by the isles, much less have the time to promote by then AND get C staffs in any real mindset.

That air caliber in chapter 12 that potentially could be out of his reach in terms of weapon level is absolved with an early promotion.

I would say fliers don't start becoming a numerical nuisance until around the Sacae/Ilia split, I think he can afford to wait a bit. Not that I'm trying to deny him a good weapon here, but no point in using something valuable like Aircalibur on the wrong stuff. That, and it is only potentially, so I feel that he can get Aircalibur for when he needs it.

Now if he needs that early Elfire, I might rethink my stance.

Lugh's speed growth is good enough that promoting somewhat earlier won't really hurt him that much, and being forced to wait until chapter 14 or 16 is annoying. 15/1 Lugh has 14 attack speed which is probably what unpromoted Dieck probably has at this point, which is probably sufficient until lategame. Out of all your magic users, Lugh probably is the only one near promotion level by the time you get it anyway since staves are ridiculously slow to level with

It's good for very basic enemies like cavs or fighters, of which if he's out even 1 speed, he's not even doubling wyvern knights form the stats I'm looking at. The stats also tell me that Lou has 37 effective might on said Wyvern Knights, and that they have 41 HP and 3 Res. So unless he doubles, he's not even killing with Aircalibur. As a note, a 15/1 Deick (which could probably be higher for various reasons) has 15 AS, of which with a Speedwing could be doubling stuff like Paladins on the Ilia route. 14 AS is also completely unacceptable with Lou's defenses if we're going Sacae. Also, 27 HP and 7 Def. Deick having meh speed is acceptable because he's tough on top of it, along with his own various weapon selections. Lou's durability combined onto 14 speed is unacceptable.

Mayhaps you should do a comparison for earlier rather than saying he's promoting at lvl 15 at chapter 14 or 16, because that comparison does not look like it's in his favor.

If Ray is being used, he also derives immediate benefit too. He becomes much more usable since he effectively gains +3 AS (1 con and +2speed and all tomes weigh him down) and is able to use staves which are useful always.

I forgot Ray was at promotion level.

*Checks stats, does enemy comparison*

He's still struggling to double steel cavs in chapter 13, and he's a sneeze away from the chapter 14 ring. As he levels up, I do not see promotion helping this still, because his speed is still not high enough (12 does not pass, and a wing won't help either, not that I'd think of giving him a wing).

If you use Ellen, Saul, AND Clarine for some reason, chapter 14X and 15 lets you have marginally better warp staff users (which probably won't make a difference anyway, but still exists as theoretical marginal benefit)

This statement makes no sense. How do chapters just magically make characters better warp staff users?

Also Allocation has two "L"s :)

Eh? *checks topic title* WHOOPS! I'll fix that typo.

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Yeah, but that Chapter 14 ring requires Sophia braving the desert and getting there all while we apparently have enough time to clear efficiently, ferry Roy, try to avoid the bandits, and grab the other stuff like the extra boots or Warp.

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I'd still save the ring anyways.

Rings are buy-able in chapter 16 though...

Why is Lou getting attacked in the first place? Sure it's nice he's not OHKOd, but really...

Well, he isn't an archer so I'm not seeing why this would never come into play. :mellow:

I have my doubts that Lou can get to 10 by the isles, much less have the time to promote by then AND get C staffs in any real mindset.

I doubt he would get C staves either, but it changes the situation from impossible to just unlikely. I thought it might be worth mentioning. :mellow:

I would say fliers don't start becoming a numerical nuisance until around the Sacae/Ilia split, I think he can afford to wait a bit. Not that I'm trying to deny him a good weapon here, but no point in using something valuable like Aircalibur on the wrong stuff. That, and it is only potentially, so I feel that he can get Aircalibur for when he needs it.

Well once again it's a minor boon, but I'd rather use aircalibur than thunder, fire, and elfire. Aircalibur is buyable in chapter 14 so it has uses on things he borderline 1RKOs between chapter 12 and 14. Besides there are at least a few fliers in chapter 13 it might have use in.

Now if he needs that early Elfire, I might rethink my stance.

Well he does have a chance of falling below his average and enemies in hard mode tend not be 1RKOed with just fire, but I honest don't know since I haven't used Lugh in a while nor have means to check enemy stats.

It's good for very basic enemies like cavs or fighters, of which if he's out even 1 speed, he's not even doubling wyvern knights form the stats I'm looking at. The stats also tell me that Lou has 37 effective might on said Wyvern Knights, and that they have 41 HP and 3 Res. So unless he doubles, he's not even killing with Aircalibur. As a note, a 15/1 Deick (which could probably be higher for various reasons) has 15 AS, of which with a Speedwing could be doubling stuff like Paladins on the Ilia route. 14 AS is also completely unacceptable with Lou's defenses if we're going Sacae. Also, 27 HP and 7 Def. Deick having meh speed is acceptable because he's tough on top of it, along with his own various weapon selections. Lou's durability combined onto 14 speed is unacceptable.

Foreblaze.

Well if you plan to early promote him, his long run utility is probably going to be limited to healing and occasional magic chipping as necessary. 37 effective might still isn't bad in my books and can severely weaken these hard to kill enemies, its not like anyone but Rutger can 1RKO tough enemies consistantly anyway. I mean the implications of early promotion essentially mean he doesn't have to be fenced anymore, is easier to use, Foreblaze, [probably just] healing staves, in exchange for being worse at combat in the long run. This has uses if you don't plan to use Lugh late-game for some reason.

I'd still save the ring anyways.

Rings are buy-able in chapter 16 though...

It takes ~90 Heals to gain 9 levels or 90 turns

There is torch for chapter 9, barrier after chapter 7 (though I doubt she would have spent 50 turns healing needed for a C in staves) and mends which give 12exp instead of 11, but there are times no one needs healing and you might use Saul/Ellen or both (for some reason) depleting her exp pool further. In other words I simply can't see her at level 10 much earlier than 16

Why is Lou getting attacked in the first place? Sure it's nice he's not OHKOd, but really...

Well, he isn't an archer so I'm not seeing why this situation would never come into play. :mellow:

I have my doubts that Lou can get to 10 by the isles, much less have the time to promote by then AND get C staffs in any real mindset.

I doubt he would get C staves either, but it changes the situation from impossible to unlikely. I thought it might be worth mentioning. :mellow:

I would say fliers don't start becoming a numerical nuisance until around the Sacae/Ilia split, I think he can afford to wait a bit. Not that I'm trying to deny him a good weapon here, but no point in using something valuable like Aircalibur on the wrong stuff. That, and it is only potentially, so I feel that he can get Aircalibur for when he needs it.

Well once again it's a minor boon, but I'd rather use aircalibur than thunder, fire, and elfire. Aircalibur is buyable in chapter 14 so it has uses on things he borderline 1RKOs

Now if he needs that early Elfire, I might rethink my stance.

Well he does have a chance of falling below his average in str/mag and enemies in hard mode tend not be 1RKOed with just fire and the critical with thunder, but I honestly don't know since I haven't used Lugh in a while nor have means to check enemy stats.

Mayhaps you should do a comparison for earlier rather than saying he's promoting at lvl 15 at chapter 14 or 16, because that comparison does not look like it's in his favor.

10/1 Lugh has 24.5/6.35 defense and 11.6Attack and 11.5AS. Many of the isle enemies are weighed down by steel and he has effectively 17.6might hitting resistance meaning he probably holds his weight in the isles, but beyond that he is just another Cecilia with better growths and Forblaze access with at best a D in staves by the time she joins.

I'm not saying that Lugh is the best choice, but it is definitely an option that I think you should consider listing since there are definite short term benefits and you can just drop him later if his combat becomes too bad, or just use him as a healer.

I forgot Ray was at promotion level.

*Checks stats, does enemy comparison*

He's still struggling to double steel cavs in chapter 13, and he's a sneeze away from the chapter 14 ring. As he levels up, I do not see promotion helping this still, because his speed is still not high enough (12 does not pass, and a wing won't help either, not that I'd think of giving him a wing).

...But it allows him the option of healing. He misses out on 3AS if promoted at level 20,but he doesn't level very fast to begin with so it might be worth it just to promote him for Nosferatu tanking (which he might get doubled with his 7AS at base) and healing which gives the player another option if you plan to use him. At least he gains immediate benefits that I find noticable. At 20/1 he only has 14AS so there really isn't a huge difference because at this point enemies become faster and he loses out on utility from healing between chapter 12 and whenever he decides to promote.

This statement makes no sense. How do chapters just magically make characters better warp staff users?

err...I was just listing the very unlikely situation where you were using all 3 healers and wanted to use the Warp staff the best you can ASAP. :newyears:

My ideas are just normal efficiency where you just try to finish maps quickly without being obligated to use a specific team because Lugh, Ray, Ellen, and Saul might not be used since they can't fly or ride horses nor are super amazing combat units.

Edited by Brighton

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Rings are buy-able in chapter 16 though...

We get two, how many rings do we need? I'm having a hard time thinking of 1 mage to actually use seriously, much less 2.

Well, he isn't an archer so I'm not seeing why this would never come into play. :mellow:

I want you to go check Lou's stats and tell me why I should ever let him see enemy phase. He's got crap durability on top of crap offense. Why should he ever pull an enemy away from someone who doesn't suck at combat during enemy phase, just to do Walt-like damage?

I doubt he would get C staves either, but it changes the situation from impossible to just unlikely. I thought it might be worth mentioning. :mellow:

Well since the scenario is unlikely even in your opinion, then no, it wasn't worth mentioning.

Well once again it's a minor boon, but I'd rather use aircalibur than thunder, fire, and elfire. Aircalibur is buyable in chapter 14 so it has uses on things he borderline 1RKOs between chapter 12 and 14. Besides there are at least a few fliers in chapter 13 it might have use in.

Elfire and Aircalibur have the same exact might. Chapter 13's fliers are impossible to deal with until they're right in your face due to the fact you have to cross the bridge as you fight them, and they can fly over the water. If they're in your face, they're not exactly hard to take out. Chapter 14? You have quite a bit of time to work with getting rid of problematic clusters guarding treasures while fliers fly thieves over to gather treasures. Aircalibur's not exactly required. Even then, please do refer to the "might not double if he's 1 speed off" point, as it's applicable.

Well he does have a chance of falling below his average and enemies in hard mode tend not be 1RKOed with just fire, but I honest don't know since I haven't used Lugh in a while nor have means to check enemy stats.

I'm checking stats, and from the looks of it, he's never really able to land ORKOs until later with stuff like Elfire and Aircalibur. This makes him all the much harder to level up. Not to mention that Elfire does not last forever, and you do not really get a bunch of Aircalibur until chapter 14. There's also the fact that Lou's speed is actually rather meh, not proving to be lightning fast as usually believed.

So in short, Lou became overrated in the time you were away.

Foreblaze.

We're sitting here having a hard time believing he can get Aircalibur rank by chapter 14. Now you expect me to think he can all of a sudden whip out an S rank tome?

Well if you plan to early promote him, his long run utility is probably going to be limited to healing and occasional magic chipping as necessary. 37 effective might still isn't bad in my books and can severely weaken these hard to kill enemies, its not like anyone but Rutger can 1RKO tough enemies consistantly anyway. I mean the implications of early promotion essentially mean he doesn't have to be fenced anymore, is easier to use, Foreblaze, [probably just] healing staves, in exchange for being worse at combat in the long run. This has uses if you don't plan to use Lugh late-game for some reason.

He does still need to be fenced in (2HKOd on ILIA route?), how is he easier to use, how is his combat in hte long run good to begin with (in fact, last I checked, it was the ONLY good thing about him with parking himself on a mountain and ORKOing wyverns with Aircalibur in chapter 21 last I recall)?

It takes ~90 Heals to gain 9 levels or 90 turns

There is torch for chapter 9, barrier after chapter 7 (though I doubt she would have spent 50 turns healing needed for a C in staves) and mends which give 12exp instead of 11, but there are times no one needs healing and you might use Saul/Ellen or both (for some reason) depleting her exp pool further. In other words I simply can't see her at level 10 much earlier than 16

I'd venture for the most part that there should easily be someone healable every turn, the question is more how often is it safe for her to heal? If the answer is often, I don't see how 16 has to be the soonest. This was all probably based on dondon's run though, so maybe he didn't have much use for healers in general since I can imagine how he went about doing it. I'd venture if that's the case, we might as well sell the chapter 8 ring and let her have the chapter 14 one. If we don't even need to promote her (what would be the point by then?), the guiding rings might as well be extra money.

10/1 Lugh has 24.5/6.35 defense and 11.6Attack and 11.5AS. Many of the isle enemies are weighed down by steel and he has effectively 17.6might hitting resistance meaning he probably holds his weight in the isles, but beyond that he is just another Cecilia with better growths and Forblaze access with at best a D in staves by the time she joins.

You have doubled a grand total of just steel axers. Never mind the hand axers, mercs, mages or archers...Only steel axers exist, right?

I remember when I tried arguing Boris an early knight crest. He had the same speed, and the power to actually kill things without help. I learned 2 things that day. 1. 11 AS dies off almost immediately, and 2. Getting only enough to be good against a not exactly a majority of the map is not a good boost.

It's almost exactly the same, except Lou can't even kill without Elfire (20 uses, and do remember 11 AS dies pretty fast), and still can't be exposed to too much action.

I'm not saying that Lugh is the best choice, but it is definitely an option that I think you should consider listing since there are definite short term benefits and you can just drop him later if his combat becomes too bad, or just use him as a healer.

I'd rather take the 4K at this point. As a note, all the EXP that goes into Lou could have gone into the rest of the team. There are such things as bad investments.

...But it allows him the option of healing.

I think we're done here.

He misses out on 3AS if promoted at level 20,but he doesn't level very fast to begin with so it might be worth it just to promote him for Nosferatu tanking (which he might get doubled with his 7AS at base) and healing which gives the player another option if you plan to use him.

Relying on Nosferatu's shaky accuracy and limited use to do tanking when I could rely on others doing actual killing is not helping Ray's cause.

At least he gains immediate benefits that I find noticable. At 20/1 he only has 14AS so there really isn't a huge difference because at this point enemies become faster and he loses out on utility from healing between chapter 12 and whenever he decides to promote.

I got a better idea. Let's just not use him, and use someone who's actually good.

err...I was just listing the very unlikely situation where you were using all 3 healers and wanted to use the Warp staff the best you can ASAP. :newyears:

Yes, let's use up all 3 uses of the Warp Staff almost immediately on 1 chapter.

My ideas are just normal efficiency where you just try to finish maps quickly without being obligated to use a specific team because Lugh, Ray, Ellen, and Saul might not be used since they can't fly or ride horses nor are super amazing combat units.

I'd venture that 4 out of those 4 aren't just not super amazing at combat, they're downright awful at it. Even in normal efficiency, I wouldn't consider Lou. Only one I'd consider is Saul, because A. He's got C staffs and a base of 5, so he can reach level 10 reletively faster than the others due to higher level and access to Barrier to abuse, and B. After promotion he gains EXP like an unpromoted unit. I just wish Light magic didn't suck in this game. Having Shine and acc that wasn't awful would have been so good. But no, he's stuck with crap and no weapons in that crap.

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Chapter 4 Angel Robe Due to the fact you get this at the end of chapter 4 (or might as well count it as such), the results of using it don't really pop out until chapter 5. As for competition, I can't exactly say there are catfights over this thing. The cantidates for this one are most likely fairly obvious.

Maybe I'm just silly here, but I think Thany warrants some mention for the first robe as well, as she is hands down your best Roy (or anyone else) ferry for the first 12 chapters of the game. In order to perform airdrops, she'll undeniably need to be close to action, and with added health, this can give her more flexibility on where you perform the air drop. I always find spoiling my fliers to pay off large dividends, and even though Thany has more difficulty than many, especially with her early combat, though promoting at the Isles helps considerably, I still think it's not a bad investment to make.

Allen or Lance-I'd venture they'd be between level 6 and level 8 by the time it's chapter 5.

Just barely level 6, by my reckoning. Probably lower if you're using Rutger and Dieck, like, at all.

Chapter 8 Guiding Ring-Hoo boy. Not really an item that has profound effects, but it's not hard to guess who wants it most.

I actually think Saul would have a better shot on the first Guiding ring than Clarine would to be perfectly honest. He starts with C Staves, so he doesn't need to work his way through two whole heal sticks to get to Barrier spam-level, and he comes in at level 5 to begin with. With dedicated use he should hit level 10 at the very beginning of the Western Isles. Now, you can't get your first Lightning tomes until Chapter 11, so unfortunately he won't get the immediate ability to defend himself, but adding +1 move and more staff rank never hurt anyone. If he couldn't be using Physic already, he can now, and that's a boon. I'm not going to bother much going into a look at actual improvement of his durability, because, again, without his tomes, letting him get attacked is inefficient. I doubt that Clarine or Ellen can raise their levels fast enough to catch up to Saul's lead. The only other real contenders are Nino's twins.

Edit: Apparently there was a post while I was typing and such, and Saul was already mentioned at least in passing.

Edited by Balcerzak

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Double post, but only to keep on with the topic.

EDIT: Oh hi Balcerzak! I'll mention your points here.

Thany: I dunno, with her I just don't see it paying much dividends. It doesn't keep her from doing good air drops early on because for the most part, Canto is enough. By the time it would (when Bolting/Purge becomes more common), I would venture that the robes you can buy in chapter 16 can be well enough.

Saul: It certanly helps him be useful earlier, but I wouldn't say it makes him absolutely killer after promo. Maybe I could add him in as a Casual Only? Because I think the cash would be better in a max efficiency sense then throwing in a decent chipper.

Chapter 11A/10B Orion Boltx2-Really, there should be only 1 archer in this entire game you should be worried about promoting, and that would be Shin. Just sell the other one.

Chapter 11A/10B Dragon Shield-Now this is a toughie. While it would be a no brainer to give it to Allen or Lance (I might as well not bother mentioning htem, since more likely or not you'll want to be spoiling them the most), anyone else would be a bit tougher to justify. This is mainly because 2 Def is a pretty fickle boost, and one has to consider "how tough is too tough to care?". Here are some thoughts on hte more instantly applicable around the time you get it.

Gonzales-Yes, 47 HP base and Berserker promotion render his HP insane, but 6-7 Def isn't as perfect as it could be. With a Dracoshield, he's about on par with a 15/1 or a 10/6 Deick, which is crazy since Gonzales could be level 5 unpromoted. To give you an idea on how good this is, chapter 12 right after has an enemy that is 30 Atk. I am pretty sure that Gonzales is one of the few who isn't 2HKOd by this punk. Then there are the enemies most likely to attack, those being the archers with Steel and Longbows. Steel bowmen 4RKO Gonzales, and Longbowmen tickle him for a 6RKO. Draco reduces this from a 5RKO, so now it's not so easy for him to get caught by a longbow and be in ris. However, from there, the def stacks with what is most likely a WTA for most of the game, of which is not only especially if they go to Ilia, but he can bring it wth terrain advantage. It pays off now, and it most certainly pays off later.

Echidna-Dracoshield makes her near equal with Deick at the level mentioned above (2 less Def, but more Res). While 2 Str off and having less con (which she can fix a bit more with the body ring, regardless they'd have the same speed with a hand axe), she still has better ranks overall with more skill and natural speed base. Deick is cool. Having a second one is awesome.

Save it for Miledy-38 HP and 17-18 Def? Yes please! That basically is a flying general.

Bartre (Casual Only)-Bartre's not bad, but I'm sure many would find it hard still to pick him over Echidna (unless you're going Sacae route, I'd I'll take those bows with that massive strength thank you. Having Fir tag along helps). Slapping a shield on him certainly doesn't hurt though. Witha monsterous 48 HP and 10 Def already, pumping that up to 12 is pretty mean, especially in a game where a majority of lategame is lance users (unless we go Sacae, but I'll explain Sacae in a bit). Slapping that shield in for Sacae grants him 12 Def and 48 at base, and with ust a B support with Fir it means he gets 4RKOd despite the fact he's doubled. Pretty significant, since most tend to struggle to not get rounded in 3 (unless you're a cav, but cavs are lol). If one to get him to level 6 before Sacae, that's 51 HP with a technical 14 Def. This is a 7RKO. Pretty brutal, all things considered. Especially for a guy who most likely could do heavy damage back even with an iron bow. This helps against most other Sacae enemies as well, who depend more on their swift speed rather than their whimpy strength.

11A/10B Speedwings-Ahhh, Speedwings. Everyone wants them, but not everyone puts it to the best use. Speedwings are always squabbled over, so let's see if we can't find fair use for them, hm?

Early promoted Deick/Allen-Remember how I said their speed might falter a bit later in the game? Not anymore.

Noah-A bit more serious-face than early promoting him. On average, the 15/1 has 15 speed, 20/1 he's got 17, which is rather dandy actually. It certainly helps, because despite Noah not having good supports or monsterous strength, it does give us another cavalier that can stand on the front lines thanks to his natural toughness. About the tme we get it tough, should bolster his speed up to 12 or 13. Completely workable for when we get the wing.

Klein (Casual Only)-If you're really that hellbent on not using Shin and want an archer...

Chapter 11A/10B Elysian Whip-Save it for Miledy

Chapter 11A/10B Hero Crest-If you didn't promote Rutger or Deick, do so now I guess.

Chapter 11B Energy Ring-Most people don't go Bartre'sroute, but if they did then this most certainly would be nice.

Early promoted Lance-Like promoted Deick/Allen for a wing up there, except instead the issue is Str.

Rutger-I don't think he cares when he'll just crit everything, but he certainly doesn't mind having a +6 additional damage to his crits.

Fir (Casual Only)-If we're going Bartre route, might as well use Fir. It'll put her automatically at 11-12 Str at base (and with the speed she levels, by the time you get this ring it could be up to 13, possibly 14), which is pretty friggin' good. In fact, that's nearly Deick sort of Str. This is further compounded by her Fire affinity, which can get a minor boost from daddy Bartre, or her loved one Noah giving her a huge boost. It also helps that she is a swordmaster, so like Rutger she can also turn out to be a crit machine, further compounded by her affinity AND her dad's. This helps create a duo with great psynergy for Sacae, and gives you a better excuse to promote her early (soon as she caps Speed, you might as well because that Str's not gonna be any better). With the Energy Ring and somewhat earlier arriving promotion, Fir can go nuts surprisingly quick.

Chapter 12 Elysian Whip-Well ok, I guess you don't need to save the last one. But really, why bother using Tate seriously? Sell this.

Chapter 13 Body Ring-Now this one is a very nice find, and a lot of people would love a +2 Con boost. I feel this might be a more contended item than most would think.

Echidna-She has to lift heavy axes around, and she wants to put that luscious 19 speed to good use. Shave +2 off, she's only losing 1 AS from Hand Axes, which keeps her from being doubled in Sacae so now she can counter back while being 4RKOd (5RKOd if you gave her the shield too). She can now use steel swords and iron axes free of charge. Once she hits the rank, Silver Axes are barely an issue. Steel Axes no longer as cumbersome (as in, she can double wyvern riders with them now and has 0 issue smacking cavaliers with them, which is nifty). She gets a lot out of it.

Miledy-This is more if we're going Sacae, since Echidna hates going there. She appreciates the no speed loss from javelins quite early in order to double mages in 14 (quite important, considering all the air lifting you want to do there), and lets her whip out Steel with a bit more freedom. With javies and a wing, she on average by the time nomads start becoming a giant threat can double them with a javelin. Considering their fragility and numbers, it is something you definitely want to get behind.

Klein (Casual Only)-Being weighed down by steel by 1 point can actually prove to be pretty decisive around his jointime. Steel at times can be well enough, and he'd rather not waste his silver unless he can pull something excellent off with it. The +2 Con allows him to do this. Now this isn't the only time it'll come in, it'll help more with the Brave Bow in case he misses or fails to kill, and getting the most out of Miurge's +5 Speed.

Edited by Amaterasu

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I'd venture that 4 out of those 4 aren't just not super amazing at combat, they're downright awful at it. Even in normal efficiency, I wouldn't consider Lou. Only one I'd consider is Saul, because A. He's got C staffs and a base of 5, so he can reach level 10 reletively faster than the others due to higher level and access to Barrier to abuse, and B. After promotion he gains EXP like an unpromoted unit. I just wish Light magic didn't suck in this game. Having Shine and acc that wasn't awful would have been so good. But no, he's stuck with crap and no weapons in that crap.

Yeah, while I was away definitions seemed to have shifted? What is efficient now, using specific teams in order to get the lowest turn-count? Tier list for this game implied Lugh, Ellen, and Ray were all upper mid to mid. Now, I'm not really sure what useful information tier lists actually give people, but this implies to me that they are worth using in efficient runs, though not necessarily all at once. As far as I can tell Lugh is a niche attacker that is able to take out enemies with high defense and fliers with acceptable avoid, Ray is a Nosferatu tanker with select supports with Lugh, Ellen and Saul provide utility in early warp and early access to Physic and are usually used in conjunction with Clarine when one healer isn't enough. Yes, none of these characters are very exceptional, but definitely can warrant use. If this is the case then the ch8 ring has 6 potential recipients (Lilina, Lugh, Ray, Clarine, Ellen, Saul) and if 5 warrant use (according to the FE6 tier list), my logic suggests that if they can derive benefit from promoting between chapter 8 and the end of chapter 14, then you are thus "efficiently" using the ring.

Now if the definition for efficiency is now getting the lowest turns possible, this means that if a character isn't involved in the strategy that creates the lowest turncount for a chapter they don't get deployed. If the mindset of the forum is that upmid to mid-tierish units don't cut it anymore since using them is inefficient then yeah, ignore my points on Lugh and Ray, but since you were doing a casual and maximum efficiency guide I wanted to point out that in this case, it is probably necessary for people who use characters that some people use, but others might not like, such as Lugh and Ray, it would be a good idea, in my opinion, to list these additional options for the ring. Now if efficiency requires you to use characters like Clarine and Saul and not use Nino's twins because using them on your permanent team instead of Clarine and Saul on your permanent team for instance prevents the specific strategy to complete chapter 16 from being completely in 9 turns (lowest possible record) opposed to 11 then...

In this case the best scenario is to sell it or use it on Saul, though he wouldn't mind waiting THAT much until chapter 14 to gain more experience from staves (before the reduction on promotion) since Light magic isn't sold until chapter 10. If the only ones worth using are Clarine and Saul and since Clarine probably not of sufficient level, then Saul should take the chapter 8 one and Clarine the chapter 14 one. :mellow:

I understand if you don't make any change because my idea of efficiency is completely incorrect or outdated or irrelevant or something. :)

Edit:

Also, why would Klein use Steel when you get lower turncounts on A route and thus get a free killer bow in chapter 9 and 8. 40 uses is enough to last him until they become buyable, heck 20 uses is as well. I don't really see how the con ring makes Miugre and brave bow better for him either since you would be using a killer bow/silver bow if you already double for more accuracy and might and a brave bow if you can't since its a pretty rare weapon that would be wasted on generics that can be defeated with generic weapons. In cases where the miss is unexpected, seems too rare of a situation to rely on the ring (which might not solve the problem to begin with). Besides all of Klein's supports are fast and give hit so I can't really see the uses you listed come up enough to warrant giving up the con ring. Miugre is questionable, but a con ring seems wasteful for a sniper for just one weapon he can use at the very end of the game.

If Ray is still considered in efficiency runs, he also makes good use of it since it allows him to not lose AS from Nosferatu before promotion :newyears:

Tate is only 2 levels from promotion and that promotion gives her C lances for killers and more move for flier/mount utility and she might be used anyway if the player wants to go to Ilia and wants to use Shin.

Edited by Brighton

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I might put Saul up for a casual choice, and just opting to sell one of the rings on a normal basis.

As for Lou and Ray, even in a casually efficient choice, I would not opt for either of these two. Lou's speed doesn't cut it, and Ray is just bleh (as a note, the tiers did change since you were away, Ray has dropped to Lower Mid quite a bit, and Lou was on his way to follow, but got barely saved by lategame performance of which I still question). If we're agreeing that only lvl 15 is possible by chapter 16 now, I might as well not even dream of using Lou. I might as well use Lillina over the both of them if I want a mage, she at least has sheer force from her high magic growth and ludicrous leveling speed when we compare her to the mediocre twins. That's not a compliment towards Lillina either, I think she's mediocre too. Just...sheesh. Why do mages get shafted so bad in this series?

EDIT: Completely forgot about the Killer Bow. As for Brave Bow and Miurge, think it actually has more effect with Miurge, since he can be pretty borderline without the extra con. Will help against Dragon Lords and Heroes.

Still do not care about Ray because his speed's never gonna be good enough.

If you take a look at Tate's stats, you'd see she's still not that great with her combat parameters.

Edited by Amaterasu

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Why do mages get shafted so bad in this series?

I think it might be because the ones in FE5 were too broken and they had to make up for it everywhere else.

I mean they could at least make getting hit by attacks give more EXP and make staves give more EXP (so healers can actually level faster), better growths (I mean Asvel had 75% speed growth), and give the early joining mage thoses nino-like bases (which were actually really good, it was too bad she joined so late she was pointless), and better staff levels upon promotion so they can do more than just heal, even better is not nerfing nosferatu, bring back the sister class and making the warp and status staves broken. I also liked the idea of forcing demounting indoors to promote balance to be honest.

Also +5 +5 +6 for magic, skill and speed for promotion gains :mellow:

EDIT: Completely forgot about the Killer Bow. As for Brave Bow and Miurge, think it actually has more effect with Miurge, since he can be pretty borderline without the extra con. Will help against Dragon Lords and Heroes.

I see, I don't have enemy stats to check, so you're probably right.

Still do not care about Ray because his speed's never gonna be good enough.

Maybe they should have reimplemented the summoner class in later series...and a remake of this in the far future.

If you take a look at Tate's stats, you'd see she's still not that great with her combat parameters.

But she is able to play a clean up role now and 12Str and 18speed with 15AS and 22 might with killers seems ok to me. I mean she will never be that good, but definitely worth it for her ability to rescue, fly, and 8 move. That extra move might make the difference and the only one she can't rescue now is Gonzales.

Edited by Brighton

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Ray really could benefit from a Body Ring. Maybe a speedwing if you dare. Or an Angelic Robe. The body ring is a given and the other two are optional, but Body Ring/Angelic Robe can mitigate his issues and he can grow his speed pretty ok with a 40% growth. At the very least, he can start Nosferatau tanking and the Robe can give him some leeway, the body ring allowing him not to get doubled at base. At worse, he can function as a chipper.

He can also improve his offense and durability further with a Lugh support.

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I see, I don't have enemy stats to check, so you're probably right.

This board has stats up to chapter 22 going Ilia. The topic is stickied. As for Sacae, just think that everything has between 18-23 ATK unless it's a wyvern (which case, they'd be just like in Ilia), and mages (again most likely a similarity)

Maybe they should have reimplemented the summoner class in later series...and a remake of this in the far future.

If Knoll taught us anything, it's that throwing a promotion on someone just for summons doesn't exactly save you.

But she is able to play a clean up role now and 12Str and 18speed with 15AS and 22 might with killers seems ok to me. I mean she will never be that good, but definitely worth it for her ability to rescue, fly, and 8 move. That extra move might make the difference and the only one she can't rescue now is Gonzales.

You'd be surprised just how average 22 mt actually is.

Ray really could benefit from a Body Ring.

No

Maybe a speedwing if you dare.

He

Or an Angelic Robe.

Doesn't.

Let's get something straight here. Ray's got speed issues that are unfixable. You know how I was just bitching about Lou's speed and how middling it was? Ray needs a wing AND a the body ring to have similar speed to Lou. Not even the same speed, similar. THAT IS NOT A GOOD WAY TO SPEND RESOURCES.

A robe on a mage, I shouldn't have to even explain why that's silly.

At worse, he can function as a chipper.

Lets build on this instead! Show me what an early promo might do for this guy, and I might be a bit more linient with Ray on the basis that I didn't have to train him up to help me avoid counters with heavy duty chipping.

He can also improve his offense and durability further with a Lugh support.

The day I use both is the day I give myself a self-inflicted lobotomy.

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Saul: It certanly helps him be useful earlier, but I wouldn't say it makes him absolutely killer after promo. Maybe I could add him in as a Casual Only? Because I think the cash would be better in a max efficiency sense then throwing in a decent chipper.

I doubt Saul is hitting A staves in time for 14x without the promotion, and a half-skip here could be really effective in my experience. I don't recommend Warp for 15, not when you can simply airdrop, though. But still, when you have all sorts of other promotion items and boosters you can be selling, I really think pawning your Rings is not the best idea. Granted I sold Knight's Crests and Hero Crests that aren't going to be sold in a regular efficiency playthrough, but I was absolutely horrid with managing my funds anyway, blowing far too much on the Ch13 killers (pre Silver Card), and probably not selling enough of my shit in Ch21, as I still had way too much equipment left over going into Final. Even with all that though, it was still an easy 8 Boots 4 Speedrings.

11A/10B Speedwings-Ahhh, Speedwings. Everyone wants them, but not everyone puts it to the best use. Speedwings are always squabbled over, so let's see if we can't find fair use for them, hm?

Speedwings here might also give Zealot more staying power. I seem to remember you (or maybe someone else), always making comparisons between Noah and Zealot to show that the former only barely wins over the later after ridiculous amounts of invested effort, so it might just be better to skip the middleman.

Chapter 12 Elysian Whip-Well ok, I guess you don't need to save the last one. But really, why bother using Tate seriously? Sell this.

Zeiss exists, and his only problem is late arrival and weapon ranks. Your army can always use more fliers.

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You'd be surprised just how average 22 mt actually is.

What's your point given that 1) killer lance is all she should ever use 2)they are buyable in chapter 13 3)you have way more than enough money given how many promotion items and gems are just thrown at you throughout the game 4) Tate has flying movement meaning she has more flexibility to reach combat and exercise mount/flying utility with a promotion than characters that can't fly (i.e everyone but Thany, Miledy, Zeis, and Juno) 5) I have no idea how you are playing, but money has never been a problem in this game for me so selling it instead of minimizing turncounts so you have 14313123 gold instead of 13131232 generates a large opportunity cost.

Lets build on this instead! Show me what an early promo might do for this guy, and I might be a bit more linient with Ray on the basis that I didn't have to train him up to help me avoid counters with heavy duty chipping.

The day I use both is the day I give myself a self-inflicted lobotomy.

Just because you don't use these characters means no one else does? They obviously benefit from using the ring in the short run so they should be mentioned. What website hosts the most recent tier list? The one in here has Lugh in upper mid and Ray in Mid, I can definitely see them in use in Casual Efficiency since Klein is also listed despite being upper mid as well. I mean you did a run that you called efficient, yet you decided to use Bors who is considered by most people to be an even worse character, I think you list them under casual efficient at the least otherwise I feel like your list may seem somewhat inconsistent.

Besides, strong chipper speaks for itself, he will 2-3HKO enemies and not double, but provides healing staff utility sums that up. How can that be expanded upon?

Not really relevant, but you responded anyway:

Knoll is definitely really useful in Sethskip since you essentially gain an additional healer and a canon-fodder generator which essentially lets you take advantage over the predictable AI the enemy CPU has. This also means that unit you sent that is facing tons of enemies will have to take at least one less hit potentially and your units don't have to get half their HP zapped away from bolting, purge, or shadowshot.

Edited by Brighton

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I doubt Saul is hitting A staves in time for 14x without the promotion, and a half-skip here could be really effective in my experience. I don't recommend Warp for 15, not when you can simply airdrop, though. But still, when you have all sorts of other promotion items and boosters you can be selling, I really think pawning your Rings is not the best idea. Granted I sold Knight's Crests and Hero Crests that aren't going to be sold in a regular efficiency playthrough, but I was absolutely horrid with managing my funds anyway, blowing far too much on the Ch13 killers (pre Silver Card), and probably not selling enough of my shit in Ch21, as I still had way too much equipment left over going into Final. Even with all that though, it was still an easy 8 Boots 4 Speedrings.

Ok, I'm convinced. I'll put Saul up for the chapter 8 Ring on basis that it gets us our earliest Warper...I never really thought about that actually. He really is your earliest warper. And we don't technically get another one until Clarine promotes later or Niime. Yeah, my bad for completely missing that point.

Speedwings here might also give Zealot more staying power. I seem to remember you (or maybe someone else), always making comparisons between Noah and Zealot to show that the former only barely wins over the later after ridiculous amounts of invested effort, so it might just be better to skip the middleman.

Well the reason I brought up Noah is due to the effect he felt effects that profoundly and immediately bolstered his performance when the wing arrives. It hardly effects Zealot, because by the time we get it, he's still doubling very comfortably. A wing's a great idea, but his problem in the later stages is more that he doesn't have the strength. Even with the wing helping him out, he will eventually die out.

Using both and going Ilia now that I think it over certainly seems like a nice choice. All you need is 14 speed to double a majority (Zealot's 1 speed off at base, Noah can easily get there in time, especially if we wing him early for some instant bnuses). They support eachother (Dark/Anima is like the worst combination I can think of, but it's better than nothing), pegasi are generally pitiful, and when it comes time for Bern they can sort of act as the back shields or the armored transport. Against the heroes in chapter 22, they might be pretty good still since 17-20 AS is hard to double, and they got both great lance ranks and high toughness value.

Hmm...Maybe I based too much on their chapter 21 lategame. With the wing in mind, might have to check over their performances again. It's too bad Treck still sucks.

Zeiss exists, and his only problem is late arrival and weapon ranks. Your army can always use more fliers.

Well, don't you get a whip around the time he joins? I recall there being lots of whips in this game.

What's your point given that 1) killer lance is all she should ever use 2)they are buyable in chapter 13 3)you have way more than enough money given how many promotion items and gems are just thrown at you throughout the game 4) Tate has flying movement meaning she has more flexibility to reach combat and exercise mount/flying utility with a promotion than characters that can't fly (i.e everyone but Thany, Miledy, Zeis, and Juno) 5) I have no idea how you are playing, but money has never been a problem in this game for me so selling it instead of minimizing turncounts so you have 14313123 gold instead of 13131232 generates a large opportunity cost.

1. You do not accumulate all that money at once, so at the time they actually are somewhat expensive. 2. There's more to combat than just ORKOing, for example, look at her durability. 3. Due to flight, she has better things to do than fail at combat, and 4. She starts at level 8, needing 2 levels before she can promote. Between chapter 12 (A hallway of archers, or a hallway of armors she does a grand total of 5 damage to), 12x (low exp, consists mostly of steel axers, archers and myrms who can double her when she has the weapons she wants equpped when dealing with them), 13 (Filled with ballistas and wyverns), tell me how you see this happening easily.

Just because you don't use these characters means no one else does?

Efficient play doesn't always coincide with the characters one wants to use. I'm sorry your fan favorites under normal circumstances are actually terrible.

They obviously benefit from using the ring in the short run so they should be mentioned.

Except they don't. Go to CATZ's stat topic, and scroll down to chapter 13. Realize that 11 AS is failing to double the slowest enemies on the map, and is still doubled by the fastest (in short, we blew a ring to change absolutely nothing about Ray's performance other than staffs, of which does not give you a free pass on blowing a promotion item out your ass). You gave me a comparison on Lou promoting as soon as the isles hit, and despite the fact that Lou is not hitting level 10 that early n any realistic sense, entertained the notion and saw it was barely any more or less effective than when I was arguing Boris and early crest (which many would view as a dumber notion, but being slightly better than rock stupid is not good). In fact, it's sorta kinda good for chapter 9, then stops paying back for itself immediately afterwards. I would consider this a waste.

So no, there is no obvious benefit. In fact, it sounds like obvious detriment in us undermining Lou's only good portion, his lategame.

What website hosts the most recent tier list? The one in here has Lugh in upper mid and Ray in Mid, I can definitely see them in use in Casual Efficiency since Klein is also listed despite being upper mid as well.

The tier list here hasn't been talked about in ages, and a lot has changed since it was last talked over. So here's a thought. Maybe the tier list is outdated. Maybe as the list stands now, Lou and Ray might be a tidbit overrated (and last I checked, Ray was below Lillina, who last I checked was not in Mid, but Lower Mid). Besides, considering Lou's placement as it stands now, he was steadily dropping until FE6 discussion came to a halt. The only thing that was even keeping him in Upper Mid was lategame performance, of which I would call horseshit considering all the crap we have to deal with in training him for the entirity of the game just for standing on a mountain in chapter 21 with a couple tomes of Aircalibur.

I mean you did a run that you called efficient, yet you decided to use Bors who is considered by most people to be an even worse character, I think you list them under casual efficient at the least otherwise I feel like your list may seem somewhat inconsistent.

I think we have finally found the major malfunction in your arguments here. You are assuming that we're using resources to make someone become usable rather than useful. I would like to use resources that have effects either profound, or long lasting. Early promoting Ray or Lou does neither, rather it just makes them suck less than normal and gives them Staffs as if it's a good excuse.

I draw this conclusion from your statement here because you brought up Boris. There are no resources that make Boris become the ultimate standalone unit. The best you could get is a Dracoshield making him closer to unkillable, and giving him a better excuse to promote earlier. Speedwings won't save him, most certainly . Nothing but the triangle attack makes him immediately amazing. Thus, why I did not bother to list him on any resources. This topic is to show how to take resources and use them on characters to make them amazing, not just to make characters suck less. The point of my run was to see if the armors truly were just awful even in casual efficiency, and for the most part I was keeping up with Colonel using a vastly superior army up until 16x (I do not count 16 on the basis that I know that chapter was a catastrophe, because I suck at planning for this giant wonky-ass map wth too much to do in too little a time. 16x with an unavoidable ORKO from a bolting Sage that Barth cannot escape was the true killer). Through this run, I learned that the armor knights only really have their triangle attack, and for the most part that's all they need. No resources would change them on any level, they would still just be "triangle attackers".

So, if you want to continue thinking this is just a topic of my own personal bias, you are free to leave. I am more than aware the armor knights get nothing out of resources, and this topic reflects it, so it would reflect AGAINST personal biases I have in this game. However, if you want to continue thinking I'm full of shit and that Ray/Lou are super cool just because you say so, I have a nice place to put you on an ignore list if you keep it up because I at least bothered to glance over at the stats (that are posted on this freaking board, so I shouldn't have to link you) to do comparisons on your assumptions and have seen that your assumptions result in nothing remotely good.

(Side note though, I probably could have done with just favoring kills to Wendy and Boris more while Barth just exists to tank hits and help with the triangle, opting to drop him later. Barth killed me in the end).

Besides, strong chipper speaks for itself, he will 2-3HKO enemies and not double, but provides healing staff utility sums that up. How can that be expanded upon?

3HKOing is not a good thing. What I want out of someone doing chip damage is to help someone go in for the kill avoids having to eat a counter. For example. 2HKOing is decent, but let's say you're doing exactly half of a unit's HP. If someone like, let's say, Lance goes in and doesn't do half his HP? Sure, Lance gets the kill, but he has to take a counter still. This is still not quite good enough, and thus why chipper's jobs are very unforgiving. There's a reason Shin and Klein are as high as they are, and just about every other chipper is leagues below them.

So in short, show me evidence he's helping the average unit avoid counters. Now I won't be so harsh in thinking Ray needs to help a still-in-training-Fir avod a counter, but if he can help our average Lance? I'll rethink the statement.

But for the most part, try comparisons wth let's say a 15/1 Ray from chapter 15 onward. Most likely he is more likely to get the chp 14 ring than 8.

Not really relevant, but you responded anyway:

Knoll is definitely really useful in Sethskip since you essentially gain an additional healer and a canon-fodder generator which essentially lets you take advantage over the predictable AI the enemy CPU has. This also means that unit you sent that is facing tons of enemies will have to take at least one less hit potentially and your units don't have to get half their HP zapped away from bolting, purge, or shadowshot.

How does he become "really useful" during a Sethskip when he joins around the time Seth starts to even out with the rest of your team to start becoming god modders? How does Seth not existing somehow make Knoll so much more noticeably useful? Consider it mere nitpicking, because I don't see how Seth's non-existence makes Knoll any more important.

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As for the Body Ring, Narga stated to me that he likes to give it to Miledy so she doesn't lose AS from Javelins. What do you think of that? Also, I wouldn't have Echidna (or any other axe user, fot that matter) touch a Steel Axe, ever, even if she got a Body Ring.

EDIT: Darn typos...

Edited by Malik Maxwell

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As for the Body Ring, Narga stated to me that he likes to give it to Miledy so she doesn't lose AS from Javelins. What do you think of that? Also, I wouldn't have Echidna (or any other axe user, fot that matter) touch a Steel Axe, ever, even if she got a Body Ring.

Well it's certainly a possibility, but I dunno. Just for javelins?

Hypocrisy at it's finest. You rant about how much they suck, and how you'll never use them, yet you use Bors who sucks a lot harder than them. Lugh's not even that terrible. Even unpromoted, he has Aircalibur utility against wyverns and other fliers and he can hit resistance.

Ignorance at it's finest.

1. I am one who constantly states bias towards the armors, and thus I keep my bias towards the armors out of anything serious. I may have tried to argue the armors up on the tiers, but do take time out of your day to realize that it went nowhere, and thus have dropped it. So while I do use the armors constantly in FE6, nowhere does my bias reflect on this topic of the list concerning the armors, and it sure as hell doesn't reflect in the tiers.

2. You act like Lou just has B rank for Aircalibur. For a unit who for the most part isn't doubling a lot and more often than not is doing chipping rather than killing, this is hard to suddenly just get Lou up 2 ranks. Event then, his stats on average at 15/1 show that if he's even screwed 1 speed, Aircalibur is not doing much for him. That's him promoted no less. I would HATE to think of what he's like unpromoted, where he's guaranteed to not have the speed needed, along with a chunk less magic.

Seriously, when did I become the guy who double checks his facts?

Ray's performance actually did change. Now he doesn't get doubled, he gains staves, he can tank with Nosferatau and be good at it, and he can do a lot of damage. You sure that's no difference in his performance?

Where the hell is your evidence for this, and why should I care that I had to blow a promotion item (4K, this is a pair of boots I'm missing in the future, or an Angel Robe for someone who doesn't suck) just to make Ray be something other than useless when I could have so much better by just not fielding Ray and using someone who's already good?

Now if he can do enough damage to help a good majority of my army avoid taking counters when they kill what he gums up for them (again, would one of you PLEASE show some evidence? I'm not here to do your work for you, despite the fact I had to with Lou), I will think it over as a casual thing for the chp 14 ring. Otherwise, Nosferatanking, the most shaky argument ever, is not going to fly here. Because Nosferatu isn't guaranteed to hit, and this could result in one dead Ray.

Using staves is a pretty good excuse actually.

Care to expound on that thought?

The body ring on Ray is quite long lasting.

The body ring is a waste, because if we're going to bother using him, whatever con problems he had vanish after promotion. The main problem is not his con, it's his god awful speed. Seriously, go back and check it. 9 speed is ass, and 11 after promotion is still ass.

It can allow him to double a little more (not that much, he's not really doubling already, but he can at least do it a little more)

Correction, he's not doubling at all. He needs to promote just to have speed that stopped being useful 2 chapters before he even arrived.

and have better leeway to Nosferatau tank.

You realize if while he's tanking and he misses, he's pretty much french toast, right? Please for hte love of god, stop bringing up Nosferatanking.

That is a long term benefit. You get a nice back up healer and a tank. It's a similar principal with Lugh, except replace Nosferatau with more rank for Aircalibur immediately, and yeah.

It does not fix his speed problems now or ever, it makes him even weaker in the future, and all he hs to his names are chipping (which again, you have yet to show evidence if it's even good n the first place), and staffs (really, if I'm that desperate for a healer, I'd just bring in Ellen if I am so desperate. Or hell, I'd just bring in Cecilia. With her, Clarine and Saul, I have 3 staffers. Do we really need more than 3 staffers? No, we don't.). This benefit you are speaking of seems to be completely masturbatory for Ray. It's long term to benefit for him, but understand that it is not a long term benefit to the team.

He's pointing out here the hypocrisy of hating on Lugh and Ray and saying never use them and refuse to acknowledge them and make all sorts of statements about them, and then you turn around and use Bors, who sucks harder than both Lugh and Ray combined. Bors will never even reach promotion because his move sucks so bad he'll almost never reach enemies. And enemies are strong enough and fast enough to double and tear him to shreds. Lugh and Ray can at least dodge and reach combat some of the time.

Yes, I get it, I have bias towards the knights, now tell me where that reflects in this topic. Because from hte looks of it, I've been doing well to keep bias out of this topic. I have mentioned points of Noah getting benefit out of resources that actually exist. I happen to hate Noah and think he's mediocre, but here I am acknowledging that he gets some great use out of certain boosts.

Ray and Lou get no such thing out of any sort of resources, or at least don't get the same sort of profound boosts as Noah would with the early wing. They take resources and remain mediocre. Because they remain mediocre after taking resources, this means they are a bad investment for such resources, and thus I did not mention them because they didn't deserve to be mentioned. The end.

I really have to lol at your trying to see if armors really suck, as if you weren't sure already. You completely killed your credibility there.

I fail to see how this kills my credibility. My playthrough was more to look into armors more thoroughly, of which I did learn something out of it. Considering this is a resource topic, do note that I had not given them any resources because I knew they wouldn't put them to good use as others would. And on top of it, my playthrough was going quite swimingly for a good while. I was keeping up with Colonel, who was using units that didn't suck (up to a point, but the fact of the matter is it is still something that one can take information from, and in fact during the times I DID screw up I could have vastly improved. Using warp a bit more for 16 would have helped immensely. ). So yeah, pardon me for wanting to look deeper into something than just echoing preconceived notions (notions such as Lou actualy being good) that may be entirely false.

You know maybe if you actually stopped whining and strawmanning for two seconds and threatening to ignore us, then you'd be taken more seriously. No one is denying Ray is bad. We're just saying he benefits from these resources and benefits the team in some way. Different.

I get the point of the argument here. We want to make Ray fit into the team by making him less bad. That is not the point of this topic. The point of this topic is to see who puts resources to the best use. Keyword: BEST. So rather than just saying "Well it makes Ray suck less, though he still sucks", convince me on how he is BEST for such a resource, or at least on par with the BEST after such use. You have yet to show evidence how it is BEST to put resources on him, and thus why I am finding your arguments for Ray and Lou utterly pointless. So please tell me I'm strawmanning more when it seems to be you tw who are completely missing or not understanding the entire point of this topic

If you really want Lugh to get out of borderline doubling, toss him a speedwing. He benefits greatly out of it, doubling more and evading more and doing some good damage thanks to hitting resistance.

Finally, you have a point! Lou+Promotion+2 Speed=consistent doubling! I am now going to give you a cookie before I ask you the following question.

Why should he get the wing over people who will be on the front lines doing the majority of the damage since they get more attack exposure thanks to having the durability for enemy phase? I'll at least meet you halfway and put it up as a casual only for Lou. Just know Ray will not be getting the same treatment, because 13 speed is still struggling even on arrival.

And thus Shin and Klein>>Ray. You should get a medal or something.

I don't hear you presenting evidence for your argument.

Your topic isn't bad and your points aren't terrible. It's the fact that you're strawmanning and being rude to people who disagree with you that makes people annoyed.

I have annoyed a grand total of 2 people who seem to have a false understanding of the point of this topic who do not back up their arguments with any evidence, one of you even admits he might be a bit out of date with how things are now in efficient runs. If I am indeed strawmanning, show me why your point holds water and mine doesn't with EVIDENCE rather than bringing up irrelevent shit like the fact that I use armor knights (of which does not reflect at all in this topic), or changing the point of your argument from "best use" to "well he now will suck less with it". There is a stat page, and there is a character average page. Do me a favor and use them, instead of wasting posts thinking accusing me of strawmanning with now evidence to back that claim up will automatically win you an argument.

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Double postng to keep the topic on track.

Chapter 14 Talisman-+2 Res doesn't sound big because most people have lousy Res. I would only recommend this on a Paladin, as they have a more natural amount of Res after promotion. Considering they are more often than not the front lines, I'd like for them to have as little problem with sniper magic as possible.

Chapter 14 Speedwing I was unaware we got another wing so quickly. Lookng at people who join, no one really leaps out at me as to someone who suddenly just becomes awesome with it. But I'm sure there are some guys, so let's point them out.

Early promoted Deick/Allen-Whoever didn't get the last one might as well get this one.

Lou (Casual Only)-He would be promoting around this time if we decide to use him, due to the chapter 14 ring, and nabbing 16 speed is quite consistent, of which benefits further with the fact that chapter 14 has the spells every anima mage would want. It helps him retain usefulness on the offense with his chip while maintaining usefulness later in the game, such as sitting upon mountains with Aircalbur in chapter 21, of which he is so famous for. Better he pays off sooner than later.

Igrene (Casual Only)-This is for Sacae mainly, to help her avoid being doubled so she can lay down the law with some killer bow love. 11 Def is quite juicy there, and while 32 HP isn't so hot, it still is a 5RKO for her on the plains. It also helps her maintain some doubling later on against things like Paladins, and whatever she can manage with Miurge (+3 I believe, since I think it weighs her down by 2 unless you give her the body ring on top of that. Which case, she would double all but 20 AS heroes in chapter 22, which is pretty cool considering it's hard to double them).

Chapter 14 DAS BOOTS-Ahh, the boots. +2 move is enough to make anyone swoon. But there's only one person who has the grit to wear the boots around here.

Miledy-Let's face it, Miledy's a bit too crazy. Delphi Shield plus the extra move to get right in there ensures some serious pain out the gate. However, it doesn't stop there. She has flight and great rescue on top of it. At that point, she might as well be Roy's armored truck driver.

Chapter 14 Guiding Ring-Well, by now you'd have plenty of mages wanting to promote, so it's not quite as black and white as the last one. But hey, let's see what we get.

The Other Healer-Whoever didn't promote with the 8 ring mght as well do so now.

Lou-Reasons stated above.

Ray (Casual Only)-In the short time before arrival and the ring, he has enough time to attempt squelch out +1 speed. While it's not stable like Lou's 16 speed ater promo, 14 is good enough for Ilia route, and is good enough for chapters 15-15x to boot. It's still not a huge majority he doubles, but it's still a good amount. I still wouldn't put faith in his acc, but it does change him up if you give him this+a wing. That, and if you look above, he's got some stiff competition for it. That wing is most certainly not free for Ray in a non-casual run, and is hard to argue even in a casual since he might not even get that 1 speed. (There, I have done the homework for SOMEONE ELSE, now move on)

Chapter 15 Knight's Crest-Considerng you get another one from 16, and that in all likeliness you are only using Allen and Lance, this is just going to go to the guy you didn't early promote. Even if you're using Noah, he won't exactly have hurt feelings over not promoting first.

Chapter 15 Hero's Crest-In a normal run, Rutger and Deick should be promoted by now, and all you have left is Gonzales. In a casual run, you might have Lott. Using both might be a bit problematic, but if you're using neither it's a free 4K. Promotion Items shouldn't really be squabbled over by this point.

Chapter 16 Knight's Crest-See above points.

I'll stop here before I do the Ilia/Sacae split.

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Thank you. You are at least acknowledging the two have resource uses to them in casual efficiency (neither of them are particularly good in maximum efficiency).

That's all I wanted. I did not appreciate the insults, but otherwise, thank you.

Sorry for wasting your time dude.

ADDED IN SUGGESTIONS: So uh, not much promotion items left that you want to use. If I may, I suggest selling most of them and going on a secret shop spree for boots and the like.

Edited by Dark Sage

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You know if you want to talk about the outdated tier list we could, you know...

...update it...

Why yes, we should! In fact, I would be happy to!

...Problem is, last time I tried to do anything involving running a tier list, I got promptly booed off the stage. In the least, we got a resource allocation topic, similar to how it was in FE10, and how Seven Deadly Sins is taking it for FE7.

I figured this would just help a way to bring some discussion back to FE6, and seeing as how FE6 has been off the board for a good long while I figured refreshing some discussion with our new mindsets would help before just jumping right into the tier list itself and just all of a sudden rearrange everything.

...and again, I'd get booed off stage if I tried running a tier list again. (I promise guys, armors will stay where they are.).

EDIT: Oh, and hi Colonel! ^^

Edited by Amaterasu

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