FE6 Resource Allocation Topic

[Dark Sage]

I'll boo only people who make dumb mistakes on the list (like armors higher than graveyard tier XD) or who engage in pointless and retarded arguments like Wendy vs Sophia or Wendy>Treck.

I'll never get over that. XD

[Colonel M]

I meant that you could've just asked me to do an update on it. Simply post what needs to be re-evaluated, and we can re-evaluate it.

Also, hi GJ. Long time no see yourself.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Shadow Mir]

Zeiss exists, and his only problem is late arrival and weapon ranks. Your army can always use more fliers.

That's putting Zeiss's problems lightly - very lightly at that. Unless he robs Miledy of the Delphi Shield, he gets eaten alive by Sacaen nomads (doubled and facing crit chances), and Ilia isn't very kind to him either with their ballistae.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Malik Maxwell

[grandjackal]

I meant that you could've just asked me to do an update on it. Simply post what needs to be re-evaluated, and we can re-evaluate it.

I suppose I'll give the topic a necrobump. The mods should understand well enough.

Also, hi GJ. Long time no see yourself.

So, was Dark Dawn awesome? Or was it awesome?

That's putting Zeiss's problems lightly - very lightly at that. Unless he robs Miledy of the Delphi Shield, he gets eaten alive by Sacaen nomads (doubled and facing crit chances), and Ilia isn't very kind to him either with their ballistae.

44 HP and 17 Def is nothing to sneeze at. Even if he does get hit with a bolt, most of the enemies on the map are whimpy pegasi wh at most have 23 might, only doing a grand total of 6 damage to him. Javelin pegasi and swordies might as well just not exist. Ballista just means he might want to pack a vulnery, I'd worry about all the magic sniping over the ballista. His doubling is also hardly an issue. 14 speed guaranteed, so he can ORKO at least the steel pegs and occasional steel wyvern. While his offensive contributions are average, he's another flier who has a hard tme dying. Even if he is average, I'd certainly take it.

[Shadow Mir]

44 HP and 17 Def is nothing to sneeze at. Even if he does get hit with a bolt, most of the enemies on the map are whimpy pegasi wh at most have 23 might, only doing a grand total of 6 damage to him. Javelin pegasi and swordies might as well just not exist. Ballista just means he might want to pack a vulnery, I'd worry about all the magic sniping over the ballista. His doubling is also hardly an issue. 14 speed guaranteed, so he can ORKO at least the steel pegs and occasional steel wyvern. While his offensive contributions are average, he's another flier who has a hard tme dying. Even if he is average, I'd certainly take it.

Ok, but I wonder just how hard it is to get Zeiss to promotion level... Iron Lances are the only thing he can wield without facing accuracy problems. And with regard to Ilia, I wonder if most of the ballistae there are iron ballistae. (Never went there...) If so, 39 Mt before factoring in Strength is nasty. Also, how common is long range magic in Ilia?

[grandjackal]

Ok, but I wonder just how hard it is to get Zeiss to promotion level... Iron Lances are the only thing he can wield without facing accuracy problems. And with regard to Ilia, I wonder if most of the ballistae there are iron ballistae. (Never went there...) If so, 39 Mt before factoring in Strength is nasty. Also, how common is long range magic in Ilia?

Well, he's only 3 levels off, and is technically severely underleveled (despite his bases), so needless to say he won't need many kills to get to promotion. On average, he gains about 12 EXP a hit and 50 for the kill. He only needs 6 kills, so that doesn't sound hard at all. You could probably do that in 16x alone. But of course, all's easier sad than done without stats.

Zeis's bases are an approximate 37 HP, 19 Str, 13 Skl, 11 Spd, 9 Lck, 15 Def, 3 Res. This is rather impressive outside the speed. He cannot survive two boltings, but he can survive an Aircalibur, granted that he's not at 34 HP. If he's got a barrier or pure water though, he can take two boltings, from both the sage and the mage in one turn, and have 5 HP left over. Our most common enemy is the 22-23 Atk cavalier, who does 7-8 damage. 6-5HKO. Mercs generally only do about 5-6 damage, but they double him. Even considering, Zeis is only 4RKOd by these guys. Even the paladins and armors with their silver lances 3RKO the guy. Needless to say, Zeis is one tough individual, though he might need a bit of barrier. Avoid-wise, 31 is not fantastic, but then again neither are the enemies dumb enough to wield steel. For the most part, you can get very common enemies to the 50 or lower mark, and mercs with around 60 acc will not be guaranteed to land every shot of their doubling. Anything else though is pretty much going to hit. Durably speaking, Zeis is doing pretty well.

Offense-wise, most of these steel cavs only have 7 AS, so Zeis is having fun on them. Well, he would if he could ORKO with iron. If he had killers, it's not gonna be an issue, and would only further his durability by A. helping him about some doubles from mercs, or B. Help him avoid counters, especially if he has to pinch hit against a mage, along with letting him be able to crack open the hardy armors or the wily fast units like snipers and paladins that roam the place. He's also got Horseslayer, of which is guaranteed OHKO on cavs, and doing some heavy duty damage to paladins, able to leave them at 7-8 HP (or in other words, you barely need to chip them to let Zeiss score a kill). His offense isn't perfect, but he's got ways around it. Considering he only needs 6 kills, and promoted kills can shorten that significantly, should not be hard to get Zeiss promoted before we need the guy to cause big trouble in little china.

So at his start before promotion...He's not perfect, but he's decent to say the least. Then after promotion, he annihilates Ilia, and uhh...Might have some problems dealing with heroes in Bern, especially since some of those bastards carry hero swords. Hmm... would suggest a Speedwing, but the problem is that it would be more for defensive purposes than offensive, which is not the best use of it. However, it does ensure some more doubling he wouldn't normally get in Ilia.

Really, his only issues out the gate is dealing with magic and status, and Barrier/Pure Water helps to make it a bit less of a problem.

[Narga_Rocks]

Well it's certainly a possibility, but I dunno. Just for javelins?

You sound like you don't think they'll be her weapon of choice for like half her life. Speedwing + Body Ring means 15 AS instead of 11 AS at base. She needs every bit of that to double the mages in chapter 14 where her growths don't have enough time to help her. And it pays even after promotion since the extra +1 is going to mean the difference between doubling certain Nomads and not. Many don't get beyond 19 AS, and without that body ring Miledy will never ever get beyond 22 AS no matter how many levels she has. And I think it's obvious why she'd be using Javelins on enemy phase in Sacae. Miledy is invincible with the delphi shield, so why wouldn't you let her counter (twice) everything that tinks her?

What else are you doing with it? Echidna? Not in Sacae. The swordmasters? Use killing edges, man. And silver is no AS loss for Rutger.

[Dark Sage]

I admit, on occassion, I do give Miledy a Body Ring so she can use Javelins without AS loss and so she can wield Steel lances with less penalty. I just find it good practice in general.

Sorry about before by the way. But anyway, maybe the next Elysian Whip could go to Zeiss? You essentially get Miledy 2.0. But there is the opportunity cost associated with losing all that gold. Hmmm....

[dondon151]

Zeiss is really difficult to get to promotion. I'm just going to point out that 3 levels feels like an eternity. It's like Heath in FE7, where he joins in chapter 22 and doesn't promote until chapter 25 at best.

[Dark Sage]

Well yeah. That's why I'm the fence about it. I often choose not to since it takes a lot of time to get him up for promotion. But he does gain some boosted exp, so he might be able to reach it faster than you think. Of course I could be wrong.

[Colonel M]

Zeiss's biggest issue is that he's stuck on D Lances, which means 0 Killers. Granted he can weild Horseslayer (if it hasn't been, well, destroyed), though hell have to make the finishing blow of course. Sucks that it is ineffective on Nomads too.

He's fine unpromoted since he flies and what not.

@GJ: I felt it was missing stuff, but not bad of a game.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Tyranel M

[grandjackal]

You sound like you don't think they'll be her weapon of choice for like half her life. Speedwing + Body Ring means 15 AS instead of 11 AS at base. She needs every bit of that to double the mages in chapter 14 where her growths don't have enough time to help her. And it pays even after promotion since the extra +1 is going to mean the difference between doubling certain Nomads and not. Many don't get beyond 19 AS, and without that body ring Miledy will never ever get beyond 22 AS no matter how many levels she has. And I think it's obvious why she'd be using Javelins on enemy phase in Sacae. Miledy is invincible with the delphi shield, so why wouldn't you let her counter (twice) everything that tinks her?

I'll make a note of it then, especially for Sacae. As for saying she'll have it equipped for half her life, reason I'm not acting like it is because I'm not fond of having crappy acc. I can understand WHY at times she'd have it equipped though, especially in Sacae.

What else are you doing with it? Echidna? Not in Sacae. The swordmasters? Use killing edges, man. And silver is no AS loss for Rutger.

I'll remove the swordmasters then, because I forgot killer weapons grow on trees in this game.

Zeiss's biggest issue is that he's stuck on D Lances, which means 0 Killers. Granted he can weild Horseslayer (if it hasn't been, well, destroyed), though hell have to make the finishing blow of course. Sucks that it is ineffective on Nomads too.

He's fine unpromoted since he flies and what not.

Well yeah, I think we can easily agree that flying is good regardless of promotion or not, was just bringing up the thought for Ilia is all.

@dondon: Really? 6 kills takes 3 chapters?

@GJ: I felt it was missing stuff, but not bad of a game.

Can't wait for the sequel.

Also, since no one apparently checks the board and just clicks on that the latest updated topic is, I just want to point out that the FE6 Tier List got bumped (permission form Sirius), and I have put up a laundry list of possible thoughts on what could need some revision. Some of it may just be me overanalyzing some things as usual, but I'm sure there's at least a few key points. Regardless, the tier list is now opened back up for some new discussion.

[dondon151]

@dondon: Really? 6 kills takes 3 chapters?

Are you talking about Heath or Zeiss? If you're questioning me, that means you haven't really tried it before. In order to steal a kill efficiently, you have to not get in someone else's way during enemy phase, not have anything better to do, and not miss.

[grandjackal]

Are you talking about Heath or Zeiss?

Having played through some of Heath's opening chapters, can't say I'm that fond of him either.

If you're questioning me, that means you haven't really tried it before.

How humble of you to imply 6 kills is hard just because it's me suggesting it. However, I should note that I am not trying to promote the serious use of Zeiss (though Ilia he's ok-ish. 3 chapters IS when the pegasi start coming in, so even by your uptight mindset he would still promote for when he most wants to), just stating it's a mere possibility.

I get that using Zeiss as a serious combat unit outside of a casual run on Ilia is not a smart thing, so if you would please not be egotistical prick about, that would be nice. Next time, just state the problems you have with a notion. For example, the quotes below. They are good points, as I'm sure you and everyone else is aware. But the quote above. Was that really necessary for this argument?

In order to steal a kill efficiently, you have to not get in someone else's way during enemy phase,

Considering his move and the fact he's kill stealing rather than charging to head up the front lines, this shouldn't be an issue.

not have anything better to do,

16x...Though you could counter that with "what the hell is he doing in a magic heavy chapter in the first place", and you would have a good point.

and not miss.

The bolded above is indeed the best reason to question it, since it involved the Horseslayer. Though it's very accurate (5 above iron, not bad), 75 is still meh, and Zeiss's base acc is unimpressive.

I think the bigger problem with Zeiss is "Why field him in the first place?". Of course 6 kills would be hard on a guy we're only using for transportation and is otherwise warming the bench. If I listed an Elysian Whip to Zeiss, I will mark it as casual only, since that's perfectly reasonable.

EDIT: Wait...He's not marked at all. So why the hell are we arguing, when my topic is already admitting that using him in a serious combat manner is silly?

Edited December 24, 2010 by Amaterasu

[grandjackal]

Double post to keep the ball rolling.

As a note, from this point forward, all the units you have unpromoted in your team should be promoted by now, so I will not mention the promotion items you get from this point forward. They should just be sold or outright ignored in a max efficiency run.

18A's Secret Book-Just sell it, Boots sounds much better.

18 A or 19 B's Goddess Icon-I forget, is Sacae or Ilia? Well, if you're going Ilia, just sell it. Crit at this point should not be a problem, so the extra pair of boots will help you far more. If it's Sacae however, and you are not confident on someone taking crits and the icon will negate it, throw it on them. If you're confident with your team's durability however (and in most cases, you should), just sell it. More boots the better.

19 A and B's Energy Ring-Now obviously it should go to whoever is lacking in Str. Lance and Echidna are pretty obvious choices. However, there is another reason outside of combat that you might want to use this.

Niime-2 more range on Physic and Warp. Some might say 21 range on Physic and 15 range on Warp s already good, but why have it be good when it can be better? There is also Rescue to assume, and it can only increase the potency of her status staffs. Though she should be nowhere near combat, 23 magic chip with dark magic certainly never hurts to have as a cherry on top. It's too bad she doesn't have S Dark. 40 might magic chip sounds delicious.

20A's Speedwings-Sounds like a good reason to go A route. Considering you already had 2 for Deick and Allen, this should go to someone who's having speed issues, of whom can't really think of any at the moment. If this is Sacae route, then Miledy should have gotten one of the wings (for javelin doubling in tandem with the body ring), and otherwise Deick or Allen should get this last one.

20A's Angelic Robe-It's around this point that stuff like Bolting and Purge is starting to get pretty common. I'd suggest using this more to prevent certain people from getting Bolting/Purge bombed, but you're still free to put it on frontline units to make them tougher.

20B's Dragon Shield-Probably the more inferior of the 2, give it to a frontliner wanting to make it through swarms of Wyverns or withstand Brave Heroes for the upcoming portions of Bern. Miledy sounds like an excellent choice.

[Life]

I'm going to advocate that the 20A Angelic Robe goes specifically to Niime. Explaination shall come in a bit (4chan is pretty good right now so I'm gonna reap the benefits of /wg/).

[Balcerzak]

Zeiss is really difficult to get to promotion. I'm just going to point out that 3 levels feels like an eternity. It's like Heath in FE7, where he joins in chapter 22 and doesn't promote until chapter 25 at best.

It's not that bad. It's all of 4 kills, and one combat. I could get that all done for him in 17I alone, and still clear it in 7 turns (PE disclaimer). If you send him in for some 16x scraps, that only helps his situation, but I personally think that's a foolish plan.

Zeiss's biggest issue is that he's stuck on D Lances, which means 0 Killers. Granted he can weild Horseslayer (if it hasn't been, well, destroyed), though hell have to make the finishing blow of course. Sucks that it is ineffective on Nomads too.

He's fine unpromoted since he flies and what not.

Gant Lance. It's no killer, but it's much better than Steel.

Maybe it's just me, but I always have uses still left on it, and then it becomes pretty much his Prf. Except in efficiency runs where he then promotes ASAP and Killers become his diet.

Are you talking about Heath or Zeiss? If you're questioning me, that means you haven't really tried it before. In order to steal a kill efficiently, you have to not get in someone else's way during enemy phase, not have anything better to do, and not miss.

Any turn you're seizing, you will generally have enemies left and nothing better to do than self improve. It's the perfect time to set up kills for people who will get significant near-term benefit from them. Aside from that guaranteed one turn per chapter, many kills will even help to set themselves up, due to most units not ORKO-ing enemies, and Zeiss having monster strength. It shouldn't be difficult for him to hang back even 3 squares from the range of the action, to still be in range to have enough flexibility to reach any juicy post-enemy-phase pickings. The only real sticking point is the chance to miss, which can potentially cause a restart.

I think the bigger problem with Zeiss is "Why field him in the first place?". Of course 6 kills would be hard on a guy we're only using for transportation and is otherwise warming the bench. If I listed an Elysian Whip to Zeiss, I will mark it as casual only, since that's perfectly reasonable.

EDIT: Wait...He's not marked at all. So why the hell are we arguing, when my topic is already admitting that using him in a serious combat manner is silly?

This is probably my fault. When you said on one of the whips that there was no-one left worth whipping (because Tate wasn't good), I chimed in, and then conversation flowed. I thought that another 8 range flier with decent combat was a better choice than +2 move on one of your other 8-range fliers, though that's clearly debatable, and route dependent. It ultimately doesn't matter now that I think of it, because of the SS in his joining corridor, which means you could always sell the early whip, use the funds while you need to, and then just make sure you have enough money to rebuy it.