FE7 HHM Unranked Tier List v4

[Life]

You should realize that this is unranked. Basically, we're trying to get through the game as fast as possible.

This seems like a pretty weak argument. First of all, as this is not a ranked list, the price of Dark tomes is pretty much irrelevant. There's ample gold available to give him as much as he needs. Ditto how "rare" dark tomes are. Why wouldn't you just stock up on them? As for him being not particularly good, I suppose the best way for me to respond to that is to ask...

- Is balance of physical characters and magic uses so unimportant in this game? If not, which mage would you use over Canas? Lucius promotes with C Staves, Pent is God, Erk comes earlier and will have a level advantage... So that's pretty much every mage not named Nino.

- Is coverage of the magic triangle so unimportant?Umm... yes.

Also, his DEF seems a bit high for a mage, which is nice. So, what's your point?

Responses in bold.

Why bother? Umm...because she's good, and because at join time, your promoted units exp growth is quite low? I'm not saying that she's a top-tier character of anything, but she seems worthy of consideration at the very least.

Really? After 28x, why would you field her? If you're playing efficiently, Nino STILL won't be at level 10 once 28x ends. 5 move in a map that requires fliers will do that to you.

Ah, this certainly clears a lot up...apparently the criteria for this list are not what I imagined them to be (and yes, I did read the Ranking FAQ). To me, it seems a matter of course that one will be leaning on Marcus and Matthew early on, and, in the case of Matthew, until quite late (sadly). I had assumed that characters higher on the list are more worthy of investing experience in so to use for the last few chapters of the game, your 'final team', if you will. I understand and agree with what you're saying about Marcus and Matthew, but it seems like something of a non sequitor for them to be be ranked highly because of it - because they are characters you want to MINIMIZE the amount of experience they gain, right?

Someone needs to find that awesome argument proving that Marcus doesn't actually steal Exp from the team.

[Florete]

I've never been involved in such a thing. I'm a rather casual FE player, coming to the board to see what other people's thoughts are on character choice for this game. There are no explanations as to the logic underlying the list, so it should not be surprising that some of us have some questions.

If there is a thread I can read that has already been written which answers such questions, I would appreciate it if you could point me to it, as I am quite new to the forums.

In that case, wouldn't it have made more sense to ask how we do things first instead of coming in acting like you know everything?

Someone needs to find that awesome argument proving that Marcus doesn't actually steal Exp from the team.

This one?

[Life]

This one?

That's exactly it.

[Grace]

EDIT: Ignore this, actually.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Mist

[sigurd773]

In that case, wouldn't it have made more sense to ask how we do things first instead of coming in acting like you know everything?

I made an assumption and I apologize. I'm still not sure I understand why you use the criteria you do, but I didn't mean to be annoying or anything.

This one?

Thanks...a very interesting read.

[Life]

I made an assumption and I apologize. I'm still not sure I understand why you use the criteria you do, but I didn't mean to be annoying or anything.

It's not your fault. If anything, I'd blame Lancelot and Mist for reacting with "lol n00b, you know nothing". I simply pointed out the flaws in your argument such as Canas having high Def for a mage (which means almost nothing since Canas should be getting attacked at 1 range).

[Radiant Dragon]

(which means almost nothing since Canas shouldn't be getting attacked at 1 range).

Thought I should fix that, given the circumstances.

[Life]

Thought I should fix that, given the circumstances.

Blame my lack of proofreading. Thanks.

EDIT: To keep this topic on track, I still want to see Kent > Lowen. Kent has all of LHM to improve (even if we're giving Sain the royal treatment) and can actually double most shit on the field. Lowen has his chapters where Kent doesn't exist but his durability factor hasn't yet kicked in so all he's being is another body on the field who can absorb blows and carry Hector if needed (which is basically... actually, no Seize chapters exist yet.)

Edited January 5, 2011 by Life Admiral

[Colonel M]

Oh wait, efficiency..hmm, doesn't sound very fun, does it?

I think I know this person now... sadly.

Regardless, Marcus's low growths don't affect him that much. The biggest one he sort of has to look at from time to time is Speed, and AS stays fairly stagnant after Chapter 21. It's pretty sad when 12-14 Spd is pretty sufficient for most tasks. You also have the Brave Axe that comes around in Chapter 22 to help mitigate his Speed issue as well. Considering Marcus's base Str is also high, it should help net his ORKOes anyway.

[sigurd773]

I think I know this person now... sadly.

Oh look, another asshole...I guarantee you I've never spoken to you before, as I've only made a handful of posts today. Anyway, I stand by what I said.

Regardless, Marcus's low growths don't affect him that much. The biggest one he sort of has to look at from time to time is Speed, and AS stays fairly stagnant after Chapter 21. It's pretty sad when 12-14 Spd is pretty sufficient for most tasks. You also have the Brave Axe that comes around in Chapter 22 to help mitigate his Speed issue as well. Considering Marcus's base Str is also high, it should help net his ORKOes anyway.

I suppose that makes sense. If I end up playing again at some point, I'll give him a try.

[Colonel M]

Oh look, another asshole...I guarantee you I've never spoken to you before, as I've only made a handful of posts today. Anyway, I stand by what I said.

I gave information, and I am not specifically treating you like a "newbie" as otherwise I would've trolled to hell and back. Now, the only reason I made such a response was with the tone of your post. That's all.

[sigurd773]

I gave information, and I am not specifically treating you like a "newbie" as otherwise I would've trolled to hell and back. Now, the only reason I made such a response was with the tone of your post. That's all.

Sorry, my tone just reflected my perspective that spending the absolute minimum number of turns is not the most fun way to play.

[Radiant Dragon]

Sorry, my tone just reflected my perspective that spending the absolute minimum number of turns is not the most fun way to play.

I agree maximum efficiency is not the most fun way to play (I endorse casual efficiency, if it wasn't obvious). However, I accept that it's possibly the fairest and most accurate way we have to rank the characters against each other.

[Colonel M]

Sorry, my tone just reflected my perspective that spending the absolute minimum number of turns is not the most fun way to play.

Training Nino is far from my cup of tea either, so I'm not seeing your general point here...

I agree maximum efficiency is not the most fun way to play (I endorse casual efficiency, if it wasn't obvious). However, I accept that it's possibly the fairest and most accurate way we have to rank the characters against each other.

This is sadly the case in most circumstances. Obviously, relaxing the requirements is fine as is. I can't say I'm a huge fan of resetting due to a failure (whether it was a critical miss on a map, etc), but I digress.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Tyranel M

[Narga_Rocks]

I think I know this person now... sadly.

I highly doubt maxknight plays fire emblem, though yeah he'd probably say Nino > Marcus.

Oh look, another asshole...I guarantee you I've never spoken to you before, as I've only made a handful of posts today. Anyway, I stand by what I said.

Read the rules. Don't flame, don't double post. The others may not have given nice responses, but they didn't flame you.

[Colonel M]

I highly doubt maxknight plays fire emblem, though yeah he'd probably say Nino > Marcus.

Actually, I was thinking more LezardReborn than I was MaxKnight. MaxKnight claimed he did not like Fire Emblem...

...Actually he'd say Oswin > Marcus cuz he'd hate Marcus.

I apologize if I came off as an asshole but:

1) I don't appreciate people throwing statements around when they "barely" know what's going on in the list.

2) I really am a tyrant.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Tyranel M

[dondon151]

Hey, now, I think low turning is the most fun way to play Fire Emblem. It's insanely boring otherwise.

To the sigurd773 dude, take a look at http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=21039 for a perspective on the play speed of the tier list. Then think about for a moment whether a late joining unpromoted unit like Nino will even be able to gain a lot of EXP.

Edited January 5, 2011 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Hey, now, I think low turning is the most fun way to play Fire Emblem. It's insanely boring otherwise.

To put it bluntly, I don't mind either way. Each has their own appeal to it at the end of the day.

*Shrugs*.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Despite the fact that this may be pointed at "playing as fast as possible" or at least damn close (we're not shooting for absolute max efficiency because that's boring as fuck and kills tier lists), I'll still note that this tier list very much reflects character effectiveness on other playthroughs. While in max efficiency Mounts' increased movement makes chapters faster, a slower playthrough sees mounts making an army MUCH more flexible, and making it significantly easier to get good positioning on your units no matter how "fast" you're going in the game.

Anyway, I'll respond further, but I'd just like to note that in Ch. 28, Marcus is still easily the second or third best character on my team, and he's definitely no slouch.

EDIT: ok since nobody has posted since, i'm going to expound a little bit more on why marcus is amazing

Marcus has it all. He will easily be able to use absolutely every single weapon in the entire game, and while his growths aren't that great, his bases MORE THAN make up for it. As a result of this, Marcus is the absolute most effective character in the entire game. The only character that even comes close to him is a Lyn Mode promoted Sain, but even then, they're basically "equal", but Marcus has been stomping balls in Ch. 12, 13, 13x, 14, and 15. He's basically singlehandedly responsible for the recruitment of Priscilla, he gets us the 5000 gold in Ch. 13x and makes the top not quite as impossible to hold, he makes the killing of Sealen easy in Ch. 15, which nets the Dracoshield (which should be used on Marcus anyway because it makes him amazing), and even once you get Sain, he STILL makes Pirate Ship nearly trivial.

The only real "cost" that Marcus needs to continue this massive path of domination is boss kills, but really, is this actually a cost? Marcus turns bosses into a red mist more effectively than any other character in the game with the Silver Lance that he comes with, so he's probably killing the bosses anyway, and as long as Marcus levels at a decent pace, he'll never be deficient in any stat. Giving him the Dracoshield also gives him the ability to just charge forward alone, take hits, and never even need to be healed (or maybe only once or twice). He's even got the most Resistance of any mounted unit, or really, most any unit in the game outside of mages. Hell, he even gets tinked by basically every single Monk in the game.

And who is this at the expense of? Oswin comes at a high level, Hector has no problem levelling throughout the game (he only really needs to hit 20 by Ch. 29), Eliwood is terrible anyway, Lowen has the movement to clean up anything that Marcus doesn't instapwn (Mercenaries, Knights, Cavaliers, etc, all of which Lowen can easily clean up), Bartre and Dorcas are terrible, Rebecca is terrible, Matthew is just a thief, and Serra heals anyway. So basically, Marcus helps Lowen level, doesn't hurt Hector or Oswin, has nothing to do with Serra's levelling, and only really hampers the terrible units that you shouldn't be using anyway.

Then of course you start getting units you might actually want to use. Sain is basically a second Marcus at this point, except with better growths and less reliance on bosskills. On top of that, all the various chapters in the middle have a bunch of different paths that you can take, and on top of that you really need that power for chapters like Dragon's Gate, where you have to ram your forces through the world's shittiest chokepoint, while all your other units can go feast on the Mercenary / Shaman / Fighter / Archer reinforcements that spawn on the right side.

And of course, Marcus keeps kicking ass even lategame. Right now, I'm on Battle Before Dawn (Chapter 28), and Marcus is still by far one of my best combat units. He's level 14, with 40 HP / 19 Str / 21 Skl / 14 Spe / 12 Lck / 14 Def / 12 Res. For comparison, Sain is 14/10 right now, and he's packing 39 HP / 22 Str / 13 Skl / 15 Spe / 11 Lck / 11 Def / 4 Res. His only wins are 3 Str and 1 Spe, but the Speed isn't even that useful. He even blows Lowen out of the water, and it's the same way for the rest of my team. Marcus isn't even close to slowing down against these chumps.

So yes, Marcus is 100% deserving of the top slot. He's the best character in the game, no contest, and will basically always be a top 5 unit no matter how far in the game you are as long as you use him right. Fuck Wallace, Marcus is the giant among men in FE7.

Edited January 5, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Seven Deadly Sins]

Double posting so I can bump, because this needs its own post.

These are my intended changes to the tier list. I'll note and provide reasoning for most of the major changes, simply because I figure it bears discussion.

-Jesus On Wheels-

Marcus

-Top-

Sain

Kent

Raven

Priscilla

Lowen

Ninian/Nils

Matthew

-High-

Serra

Florina

Oswin

Hector

Erk

Pent

-Upper Middle-

Harken

Geitz

Hawkeye

Canas

Fiora

Heath

Guy

Isadora

Lucius

Dart

Dorcas

Legault

-Middle-

Farina

Lyn

Eliwood

Bartre

Rath

Vaida

-Lower Middle-

Jaffar

Karel

Athos

Renault

Louise

Rebecca

-Low-

Wallace

Wil

Karla

Nino

Notable changes:

Kent > Lowen- Yes, I know you've all been pushing for this for a while, and I'm caving. Durability becomes less and less of a factor as the game goes on, but Lowen's lack of offensive prowess is quite simply unacceptable in later maps. Against mages, Lowen is more than capable of holding his own, but against physically based enemies, Lowen has issues doubling, or even killing things that he doubles. Meanwhile, Kent will never have doubling issues, have decent strength, and while his durability isn't the greatest it's still functional. He even has a fast-ish support with Sain, who has now assumed his rightful place as godmoder one step removed from Kent.

Cavaliers Up- Again, this is a change that's a long time in the making. Cavs are going way up- Kent will be adjacent to Sain, and Lowen will be below Priscilla. Mounts are ridiculously useful in this game, and while Lowen is definitely no combat superstar, he's still legit in terms of durability and ability to ferry characters around with his mount. He kinda wanes later in the game when his combat starts being especially ineffective and you're swamped with mounts, and he still has to compete for the Knight Crest he needs to promote.

Healers Split- Remember that thing I was saying about mounts being really really good? Well, there's exactly one healer that's going to be able to keep up with those mounts throughout the entire game, and that's Priscilla. On top of that, Priscilla can ferry people and still do her job- since she shouldn't be attacking in the first place, her combat stats basically don't matter. Serra's lack of mount really hurts her here, doubly so when you consider that she's pretty much guaranteed not to get a single level out of Lyn Mode. There's always the off-hand chance that she won't even be close enough to the combat to get B Staves, which she needs to use Physic, and if she never reaches Physic level, then her movement is always going to hamper her, and her increased physic range is irrelevant.

Eliwood WAY down- Seriously, Eliwood is tripe. He's terrible at combat, and he's lucky if he ever reaches promotion. Even if he promotes, his only claim to fame is hauling around Oswin and Hawkeye's fat asses. I'm putting him near the top of Middle, adjacent to and just below Lyn.

Guy down- He's basically Raven who shows up slightly earlier, and gets a crit boost in exchange for no 2-range. He competes with Raven for the sole easily obtainable Hero Crest (stealing from Oleg is a pain in the ass and slows down the chapter A LOT considering how many pegs and wks are ready to rock the shit out of your soft squishy sword-locked thieves). Being sword-locked sucks a lot, and his Strength isn't too hot either. He's basically Lyn that shows up a little earlier, promotes a little sooner, but still has to deal with no 2-range (bows are better than nothing).

Hawkeye Up- Easily better than Dart due to not requiring a promotion item, having AWESOME stats, and being ridiculously durable. He's damn near indestructible, and his waterwalk is indispensable in chapters like Night of Farewells. His high CON and mediocre SPE can hamper him, but a Speedwing basically sets him up to double and destroy everything. Killer Axe gives something silly like a 50% chance to Critical Hit, which spells death for anyone it hits, and so if he doubles, not only is he likely to one-round every enemy outright, but also packs around a 75% chance to ORKO any unit he doubles no matter what.

Isadora Up- Yeah, I said it. Isadora comes as a fairly legit attacking unit with excellent stats and a bitchin' 50% speed growth. A Body Ring and Angelic Robe is all you really need to turn her into a fighter that easily rivals Kent, especially considering Silver Sword access.

Florina Up (and other fliers)- Yeah, this has been a LONG time coming, ever since I argued her out of the pit of despair she was previously in. Basically every single flying unit is jumping up the list. Florina has a great claim to the Lyn Mode boosters, and makes great use of them for both combat and flight, and her flight is incredibly clutch in a number of nasty chapters. She's also going to be the first flier to promote by far given her fast-ish levelling speed and high starting level, and high starting level (7/0 is easily doable by the end of LM). Everyone else is going up too, including notably Vaida, who can take a Speedwing and become awesome.

Archers Down- Yeah, this is a long time coming. Rebecca to Lower Mid, Wil to bottom. This should be fairly obvious.

Renault Up- He functions as an endgame staff user, meaning that you basically don't need to raise any staff users for the endgame. He does have a function, and can serve it fairly well, so that's that.

So yeah... discuss away.

Edited January 7, 2011 by Seven Deadly Sins

[Silvercrow]

Why is Fiora a tier below her sister? The LM Robe?

Florina has like 2 chapters where her utility is useful before Fiora joins and statistically they're quite similar.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

LM Robe/Ring, easier promotion, better combat in terms of strength, free recruitment, and a whole lot of sweet utility- she makes the 4 turn of Port of Badon possible (and even if you don't do the 4-turn you are probably still using her for the fact that she makes that chapter suck a lot less- marching a unit through the trees at the top is a huge pain in the balls no matter how you slice it), she does the awesome carry in Ch. 16 that lets you drop Hector and/or Marcus on the ridge and make a beeline for the throne rather than futzing around in the forest, she can carry Matthew in Ch. 18, which speeds that chapter up slightly, and all in all provides not only significant utility before Fiora shows up, but also has excellent potential above Fiora even after she joins.

[Radiant Dragon]

She should still move above Canas, at the very least.

[-Cynthia-]

Did you actually move Guy down? Position looks the same to me.

Also, Erk being a tier over Lucius still kinda confuses me.

Erk's level lead isn't as significant when LHM is assumed, since both Erk and Lucius both gain less EXP in HHM. Also it's only ~4 chapters before Lucius shows up, depending on how we're counting recruitment chapters.

Let's give Erk a 2 level lead. I don't see Erk leveling that much because we can't let him see significant enemy phase action, and he often doesn't double on the Player Phase.

9/0 Erk(Fire)

22 HP 13 Atk 11 AS 3.6 Def 7 Res

7/0 Lucius (Lightning)

20 HP 13.4 Atk 11.6 AS 1.4 Def 8.4 Res

If you think that's stingy, here's 11/0 Erk

23.5 HP 14 Atk 12 AS 4 Def 8 Res

He does beat Lucius more here, but only marginally.

Lucius has slightly more offense (plus the crit from light magic), Erk has slightly better durability, but it's really not good enough to leverage much since many enemies reach 14 Atk by this point in the game anyway.

Growthwise, they're pretty similar. Erk should catch up in Spd since he has a 10% higher growth in that, also keep his Def lead since he has a 10% higher growth in that, though it's still only 20% so he won't ever become very durable. Lucius has a 20% lead in Mag growth.

One thing to note about Lucius is that he gets C staves upon promotion instead of the E staves Erk gets. Being able to use staves like Restore and Physic are very useful, it is unlikely that Erk will ever be able to use these staves while maintaining efficient turncounts.

Basically, I'm not seeing how Erk's stats are so much better as to warrant an entire tier gap between the two. Either Lucius is too low, Erk is too high, or some of both.

[Anouleth]

Did you actually move Guy down? Position looks the same to me.

Also, Erk being a tier over Lucius still kinda confuses me.

Erk's level lead isn't as significant when LHM is assumed, since both Erk and Lucius both gain less EXP in HHM. Also it's only ~4 chapters before Lucius shows up, depending on how we're counting recruitment chapters.

Let's give Erk a 2 level lead. I don't see Erk leveling that much because we can't let him see significant enemy phase action, and he often doesn't double on the Player Phase.

9/0 Erk(Fire)

22 HP 13 Atk 11 AS 3.6 Def 7 Res

7/0 Lucius (Lightning)

20 HP 13.4 Atk 11.6 AS 1.4 Def 8.4 Res

If you think that's stingy, here's 11/0 Erk

23.5 HP 14 Atk 12 AS 4 Def 8 Res

He does beat Lucius more here, but only marginally.

Lucius has slightly more offense (plus the crit from light magic), Erk has slightly better durability, but it's really not good enough to leverage much since many enemies reach 14 Atk by this point in the game anyway.

Growthwise, they're pretty similar. Erk should catch up in Spd since he has a 10% higher growth in that, also keep his Def lead since he has a 10% higher growth in that, though it's still only 20% so he won't ever become very durable. Lucius has a 20% lead in Mag growth.

One thing to note about Lucius is that he gets C staves upon promotion instead of the E staves Erk gets. Being able to use staves like Restore and Physic are very useful, it is unlikely that Erk will ever be able to use these staves while maintaining efficient turncounts.

Basically, I'm not seeing how Erk's stats are so much better as to warrant an entire tier gap between the two. Either Lucius is too low, Erk is too high, or some of both.

From SDS' comments, I've gathered that Lyn Mode is going to be beaten efficiently, so it's pretty questionable if Lucius could gain any levels at all with his paper-thin durability and sluggish movement.