FE7x: Immortal Sword - Part One Complete

[FiboSai]

I switched to standard mode. That fixed the looping to the intro map, but I still can't get past chapter 5. After beating the chapter, I get the usual chapter select screen, but I can't select the next chapter, it only shows introduction, prologue, chapter 2 and chapter 5.

[Dunal]

4 hours ago, FiboSai said:

I switched to standard mode. That fixed the looping to the intro map, but I still can't get past chapter 5. After beating the chapter, I get the usual chapter select screen, but I can't select the next chapter, it only shows introduction, prologue, chapter 2 and chapter 5.

Press left or right. It'll show the other chapters such as Tristan's.

To be honest I'm not a fan of the design of the world map UI in this regard -- and isn't very clear why or how 4 or 5 maps are grouped together as they are. However it could be a WIP. A prompt should appear when you unlock them so it's a bit more clear.

 

While I'll be providing my full feedback in the near future, I have to say that I'm extremely impressed overall with the quality of the game at this stage and it's great to see the progress being made so far. Last I played was a couple years back and considering the improvements that have been made along with the new content, I have a lot of good things to say about this project.

I think I'll mention this now though in case I can get a bit of clarity and/or discussion surrounding it; my main criticism at this stage would how the game relies far too much on bait and switch strategies, which is one of the biggest pitfalls for FE fangames (or the main games themselves). What I mean by this is that the maps are often too focused on 'Put your units in range of an enemy/group of enemies > take them out > rinse and repeat' with a few reinforcements thrown in (which you usually just want to take care of before baiting the next group) usually in a linear fashion. Literally all of Eliza's maps follow that trend.

That doesn't necessarily mean that no maps should be like that. While CH3 (Eliza's first map) plays out like I just described -- it's fine, if not eventful since the density of enemies aren't that high and they aren't that powerful either. But hey, it's normal mode and also an early part of the game, so it's fine -- and makes sense for the map itself. CH1x, if I were to imagine the hard mode version, would also be fine (especially since it plays out differently than Tristan's other maps). In fact, Tristan's maps are all great; varied, fun and aside from 1x itself, doesn't follow the aforementioned pitfall. CH1, 8 and 10 should be a blast to play on hard.

Going back to Eliza --  CH4 and 4x follow the gameplay pattern described, which is an issue especially since they're back to back. CH3 was already a 'bait and switch' map, as it were, so feel that these two maps stand out as not being particularly enjoyable to play in comparison to other maps (CH4 more so than 4x, in which the latter benefits from being smaller and more compact). I feel that both maps need to be more dynamic and engaging to be truly enjoyable. Even if it's normal mode, the quantity of these types of maps (in sequence) in too high. The reason why CH4 feels worse overall is because it comes right after CH3. So if CH4 was changed a lot and CH4x stayed relatively the same, it would feel a lot better. 

Uther's are hit or miss. Everything up until CH7 is more-or-less great. Not massively keen on CH5 since big map + 'bait and switch' coming off of either CH2 or CH4 isn't good cadence. However I think CH5's biggest issue just stems from having so many 4-move units on such a large map, which is bad for pacing. I''d say that it stops CH6 from being perfect as well. But I think you guys are deadset on the whole 4-move thing as much I think it doesn't do any favours for design (And going from 4 movement to 7 movement in many cases via promotion is too steep of a transition -- especially when they're all promoting around a similar time. You go from one extreme to another... and then there's Magnus and Eiry who need constant rescue-dropping to keep up with said movement transition).

7x is the worst map in the game IMO (ironic). I understand what gimmick/concept you are going for -- but the execution isn't there (it's basically a bog-standard 'bait and switch' with an annoyance thrown in -- making it even more cautious/slower). Boss is way too threatening for how inconsistent their AI is (possibly because of WTA) since they double most units. I'd say lower the boss's AS to 10 (and possibly increasing strength by 2-3 if needed), but then allow them to 'cheat' by letting them use their full movement after attacking, even after moving beforehand (give them a unique skill, like an advanced version of the default one). Then make it so they will attack you every single turn and then retreat to safety (what they prioritise already) with maybe moving 5 or 6 spaces away (so you still have the opportunity to attack them) and making them tankier with immunity to stealing (so that dealing with the boss isn't just killing them immediately/quickly when you catch them, but by whittling them down over the course of the map). Then you design the rest of the enemies/map around this very concept. This means they are completely consistent in what they're doing and therefore how you should play, but they aren't massively punishing on a turn-by-turn basis. The damage threshold (by other enemies) becomes a lot more liberal since before, the boss can almost 1RKO half your unit roster. This is one step towards fixing this map. It isn't all that fun to play -- since while it's relatively uninteresting outside of the boss, the boss just forces you to kill them quickly or just play very cautiously -- neither of which make the map enjoyable. However, if designed for a middle ground, the boss can at least add to the map.

CH9 = Bait and switch.

CH11 = Bait and switch (I really think this should not be one of them -- enemies should be far more aggressive and dynamic; even Richard could move if re-balanced -- he's a desperate man, after all).

CH12 Part 1 = Bait and Switch.

CH12 Part 2 = Bait and Switch.

yeti pls

 

I'm not going to go in depth with these. The variety in map design just isn't there and detracts from an otherwise great game. The pacing isn't good and 'bait and switch' (with little reason to split your army into multiple groups or take on multiple objectives simultaneously) is the worst way to design a map, let alone so many of them in sequence. The saving grace here is CH10 (a great map) being in the middle of it all. However, I just didn't find any of these maps all that fun aside from CH9, where the objective/time really helps.

My other main criticism is mage design (how the classes all share skills within the light/heavy variants and how clunky Magnus/Eiry feel with how the map design is past CH7). Disruption is a far better skill to have than Focus (for the heavy types) but it would be even better if they all had unique skills. Light variants could all separately have +10 HIT (Scholar)/+10 AVO (Mage)/+10 DODGE (Monk) and the heavy variants could have something like Disruption (Sorcerer)/A skill that makes them deal +5 damage at close range (Shaman)/A skill that doubles or triples overflow hit at close range (Diviner). Those last two could be anything really to separate them, but I enjoy the idea being stronger in close combat. That fits their play style and movement type.

I'll go into further depth about Magnus/Eiry in my full write up (which should cover all aspects of the game).

However, I'm mentioning these now in order to possibly garner some discussion surrounding what I believe are my two biggest criticisms of the game. I love the game otherwise -- it's really quite marvellous.

 

EDIT: Worth mentioning that I've yet to play hard mode beyond CH7. It's possible that some of the later maps do become more interesting. But the core design/flow of the maps is partly the issue here, and still doesn't do normal mode any favours; which will likely be a lot of people's first experience with the game. For the last map of Part 1, CH 12 really just feels filler/slow/boring, especially coming off of CH 11 which was not as enjoyable as previous maps either (My 'Enter' Key has never felt more abused, but props for having the ability to skip phases in the first place -- that does help CH 11 a lot).

 

Edited October 22, 2017 by DLuna

[Kruggov]

2 hours ago, DLuna said:

Press left or right. It'll show the other chapters such as Tristan's.

To be honest I'm not a fan of the design of the world map UI in this regard -- and isn't very clear why or how 4 or 5 maps are grouped together as they are. However it could be a WIP. A prompt should appear when you unlock them so it's a bit more clear.

Wait. Do you need to complete Ch.5 to unlock the ability to switch? I didn't yet, and I can't switch. The "left/right" arrows appear when I try to change difficulties (but don't do anything), but otherwise they are absent.

At least give a hint that missions are not in order they are numbered as.

EDIT: One other minor nitpick - you can't unfocus the game unless it's windowed. And you can't turn on windowed unless you suspend the gameplay. Minor, but somewhat irritating.

Edited October 22, 2017 by Kruggov

[deranger2]

7 hours ago, Kruggov said:

By the way, I wanted to ask - which chapters are currently present. Only Uther's?

The latest update contains the rest of part 1 (chapters following the other lords)

2 hours ago, DLuna said:

Bait and switch

I don't get why you have to switch, unless your ideal unit for aggroing has high enough def/res + WTA to take 0 damage, so they don't successfully aggro. Your complaint seems to be that not every enemy moves towards you immediately, that some only move when you're in range. This allows you to move at your own speed, on top of dealing with enemies that do head towards you immediately. The pacing is essentially what you choose it to be, and you're rewarded on turns for choosing the fastest one you can handle.

Do you want more defense maps? You get that in Ch6, Ch7, and the first half of Ch9 (at least on hard), more or less. I just don't really get what the alternative is. Do you want to be forced into the fight, rather than being able to enter the fight at your own speed?

Also not sure why heavy mages need different skills beyond their weapon types. Seems arbitrary.
 

 

[Dunal]

1 hour ago, deranger2 said:

I don't get why you have to switch, unless your ideal unit for aggroing has high enough def/res + WTA to take 0 damage, so they don't successfully aggro. Your complaint seems to be that not every enemy moves towards you immediately, that some only move when you're in range. This allows you to move at your own speed, on top of dealing with enemies that do head towards you immediately. The pacing is essentially what you choose it to be, and you're rewarded on turns for choosing the fastest one you can handle.

Do you want more defense maps? You get that in Ch6, Ch7, and the first half of Ch9 (at least on hard), more or less. I just don't really get what the alternative is. Do you want to be forced into the fight, rather than being able to enter the fight at your own speed?

Far too many enemies (or small groups of enemies) only move while in range on the maps that I had mentioned, which makes the gameplay very stale and repetitive (oh another idle Zwihander/Celeste? Only varying strategy is either Eliza or Vaida to bait -- on a replay this doesn't change; most enemy groups are tailored fit for one or two units). Not every enemy needs to move immediately but there are multiple methods to handle this and improve the flow of the map (and avoiding times where there is downtime in action, like spending a turn or two to position units for a bait -- while the entire enemy army is twiddling their thumbs). This can be done through enemies moving on X turn, moving when you're close but not necessarily in range, or outright having enemies who are travelling to create a formation or obstructing an objective. Let's say on X turn a group of enemies start moving to merge into another group. Or move towards another enemy in order to rescue them and then charge towards you. In either example, the player can choose to disrupt this by intercepting the first group before they can join up with the second group (or vice versa), because if they do merge or rescue (or even trade over items to each other to make individual enemies more powerful -- a cool concept IMO) or pre-injured enemies that need to wait for backup healing etc... you'll face a more difficult challenge because you'll need to fight both groups together or they'll have better weaponry/health. Meanwhile if you intercept correctly, then you can fight each group separately and therefore needing less units to handle either the first or second group, meaning you can send off more units to do things like shop/arena or fight separate enemies. 

And that's just a few examples. Either way, the importance is having dynamic enemies where it's up to the player to decide on how they deal with how enemies are behaving or the density of units they need to prepare for if they do X or Y (like sending away a unit to do something, meaning you have less fire-power to fight the main force of enemies). 

CH6 is a great example of a well made map. Not every enemy charges towards you -- the ratio in enemy AI is great. It's a defend map, but the way it's played out can be the same for any other -- defeating the boss and clearing objectives in a timely manner. The mini boss needs baiting, but he can be quite dangerous and you don't want to be overly distracted by enemies that are charging towards you when you do grab his attention. So timing is key. It gains access to the arena and an alternative route to the boss, but those aren't mandatory -- meaning on a replay you can try ignoring him for longer and sending more units north. The replay value and accommodation for different strategies is there, with no outright obvious way to beat it. A lot of enemies charge at you, but it maintains a good sense of pace and action, and balances how fast you can advance. You need to split your army and because of reinforcements that appear, the units best suited to deal with those aren't always available, so you need to improvise.

Again, the only real issue is the sheer quantity of 4-move scrubs that you have. Otherwise that map is very good, and most importantly; fun.

By CH 4x, I was really burnt out with how the game was expecting me to play. Same for CH 11 or CH 12. I wasn't really having fun by CH 12.

Cadence is also important. Both CH 6 and CH 7 are fun. But they would be even better if not back-to-back. Because variety is important. CH 10 was a godsend for this reason. And/or if you decided to play Tristians maps all together in sequence -- they're all fun and varied. Stark contrast to Eliza's maps; it's easy to get burnt out on that type of map design. And I'm not even saying that these types of maps are bad by themselves (while not perfect, CH 1x is okay, even if it's just baiting strats with a few reinforcements thrown in  -- because it plays differently than CH 1, which is the important thing.

1 hour ago, deranger2 said:

Also not sure why heavy mages need different skills beyond their weapon types. Seems arbitrary.
 

Magic type means very little for gameplay though, beyond WTA (which matters a lot more now granted). All magic is 1-2 range and rarely has unique properties. Arc tomes and resire aside, which don't appear all too often. WTA is a thing, but usually archers or physical units deal with enemy casters just as well, if not better than taking advantage of it. Disruption means a total +8 damage in WTA, which is good! But doesn't change the fact that Hassar, or Toni, Isadora etc... are dealing more damage to a low DEF / high RES caster anyway. Casters that appear less often than physical units to begin with (which is inherently a problem with Fire Emblem; casters being always 1-2 range means that you cannot have too many of them, because too many ranged enemies is bad for enemy phase or gameplay -- I would suggest having some more powerful 1-range magic tomes mixed in, like a separate tier of dark and/or thunder magic or something, or just the Arc Tomes/Divine/Worm etc... but I'll admit that it's an alien concept that people might not agree to. Still, tankier 1 range mages would be good for enemy design and density of casters. My suggestion is to test out this design. By my experience it does work in practice).

Sword and Axes can be the difference between actually having common-ish 2 range (Hand Axe) or weapons you have access to at the time with unique effects (like the Zanbato) and enemy physcial units are far more common, making WTA very relevant.

I don't care about what type of magic a unit is using. They just need good stats to target and kill low RES enemies. Or Magnus actually being able to tank. Those don't have anything to do with magic type.  

This why distinction via skills would be great. It doesn't matter if Mercenaries and Fighters both have focus. They're distinct based on weapon type and that matters a lot. Meanwhile the gameplay for Magnus wouldn't change much for him if he would be using light magic instead.

Edited October 22, 2017 by DLuna

[deranger2]

Ch9 on HM might have more of what you're looking for. A lot of side objectives and a lot of enemies heading towards you early on, with another wave moving not necessarily because of aggroing. Actually, Ch5 has enemies turning aggressive at a certain turn as well. And maybe Ch2 has more as well. Not sure if you've replayed those or not.

As for mages, the best way to take out a mage is typically with the correct heavy mage, as mages always retaliate (until longbowmen). Or archers. A one range bonus on heavy mages would further confuse their purpose, as 1 range physical units should be taking out archers at one range, and mages should be utilizing their double range on player phase. I think a large part of magic is its 1-2 range. If Magnus and Eiry had the same stats, they might be similar in a lot of cases, but when their weapon type affects the triangle, it affects it significantly. There's no complaint about using a leiutenant and a zwei, or two sword users. I don't see how using two mages who have their statistical differences already, and are futher differentiated against other mages, is an issue.

Not sure what you're saying about swords and axes. Halbeirds exist. Swords just have more magical options for 1-2 range in exchange for handaxes/javs.

[DemonStryker]

Hey Guys, can someone help me, please? I Already installed everything, including OpenAL, but when I execute FE7x, it says I need to install OpenAL for audio from the game's directory and doesn't open.  How can I solve this? 

EDIT: Okay, forget it. I already made it 

Edited October 22, 2017 by DemonStryker

[Dunal]

3 hours ago, deranger2 said:

Ch9 on HM might have more of what you're looking for. A lot of side objectives and a lot of enemies heading towards you early on, with another wave moving not necessarily because of aggroing. Actually, Ch5 has enemies turning aggressive at a certain turn as well. And maybe Ch2 has more as well. Not sure if you've replayed those or not.

I wouldn't know because I may be playing too efficiently/fast for it to happen (for CH2 and CH5). Maybe going the upper route in CH5 matters there, but either way it would let you take care of the mini boss's group in isolation regardless, so the gameplay doesn't change. CH2 may have charging enemies as well, but that means nothing from a gameplay perspective aside from those cavs near the start of the map. I'm assuming you're talking about the group of cavs near the boss if you wait long enough, in which if Eagler is busy with the village, that could catch you out -- but not at the speed I was playing. CH2 is fine anyway (it's early game and the design well suited for it) . And again, I think CH5 is decent as well, with my only real criticism being the whole 4-move thing on quite a large map. Without rescue-drop spam it has pacing issues. Otherwise it's a return to Uther's crew after playing with Eliza's -- so has the enjoyment factor for that reason. And comes before CH 6 which is very different.

Enemies charging you for the sake of it is not important here, its intended purpose should be to maintain gameplay flow when done at the correct time, and offering distractions and/or make taking objectives increasingly more interesting. Enemies don't even need to charge at you directly either -- they could be part of an objective, or meeting up with another group of enemies, or transporting weaponry, or forming a position that makes them inherently more difficult to charge towards on your end. Make it so enemies on a map feel dynamic and that they have some sense of awareness and strategy on their end (like CH 6 or 7). Stand around for them to baited on a constant basis makes it feel like a one-way battle. And on your end, the strategy becomes "who should I give EXP to?" (which again, is a justifiable early game thing so long as it's not overdone -- CH 1x works for this reason and it doesn't drag on) . The problem is that Eliza's maps, and Uther final maps, have this way too often. They just aren't fun or rewarding to play.

3 hours ago, deranger2 said:

As for mages, the best way to take out a mage is typically with the correct heavy mage, as mages always retaliate (until longbowmen).

Taking damage is mostly a non-issue. With or without barrier/pure water. Killing an enemy quickly favours you far more in most cases since a lot of the time you can heal before it matters. If you've murdered the group of enemies on player phase, then that's efficient play.

There will be times where magic WTA and/or Disruption matter. But A) Enemy casters are less common to begin with and B) Being relevant some of time when they do exist meaning... it's not that prominent in the grand scheme of things. Occasionally relevant is not exactly on the same level as physical weaponry and the WTA for them. I like how the magic triangle has actually some kind of factor now -- but it's still just a situational factor. 90% of mages having decent/high RES doesn't help either.

3 hours ago, deranger2 said:

I think a large part of magic is its 1-2 range.

Which should be the standard. Much like how the standard for physical weapons is 1 range. But occasional variety is a good thing and it's still healthy design for enemy mages to be more frequent. While not absolutely necessary -- it's the best way to increase enemy mage density without them being a pain for enemy phase.

Still, if the intention is to make magic WTA only occasionally relevant due to the smaller number of units, then that's fine too. It's more about giving each individual class some extra identity. 

3 hours ago, deranger2 said:

If Magnus and Eiry had the same stats, they might be similar in a lot of cases, but when their weapon type affects the triangle, it affects it significantly. There's no complaint about using a leiutenant and a zwei, or two sword users. I don't see how using two mages who have their statistical differences already, and are futher differentiated against other mages, is an issue.

I think you're overestimating how different Magnus and Eiry are. They both:

A) Do not double. Magnus has mediocre speed and Eiry gets weighed down heavily by her tomes.

B) Do decent-ish damage in a single hit, if not stellar. They often 3RKO most enemies (Magnus if given Elthunder), which stays the same for a long time.

C) Both have 4 move, huge RES, similar hit rates/avoid. 

Main difference between them is Magnus being fairly tanky against physical damage and having anti-armor in Arcthunder later on. In their final promotions, Eiry's staff usage will be neat -- but doesn't apply until much later on. 

Either way their stats are all very middling with no real extremes aside from Magnus being tankier. From a design perspective that's the only real way they differentiate (a few points of SKL/LCK/RES/SPD is largely making no real difference here). And Eiry's defence isn't even that bad after her first promotion. Either different skills or more unique stat spreads would be good here. If Magnus for example had poor RES in exchange for a couple more points of MAG/DEF then I'd be willing to agree. Or if Eiry had the SPD /CON to double but had atrocious SKL/LCK (to make her damage output wildly fluctuate which... actually fits her) etc etc...

It's not just player units though. Magical enemies in these different classes don't feel hugely different either in terms of stats or how you deal with them. Different skills that you need to watch out for separately would have good implications for gameplay/strategy when facing them.

3 hours ago, deranger2 said:

Not sure what you're saying about swords and axes. Halbeirds exist. Swords just have more magical options for 1-2 range in exchange for handaxes/javs.

Kind of missing the point here a little. Isadora using swords is significant compared to Marcus using lances because not only is the WTA actually significant for them on a common basis, Isadora gains access to Zanbuto/Lancereaver etc... while Marcus gets Javelin access compared to the Light Brand which targets RES. Making them very different.

Mostly it's how much more relevant WTA actually is. And while yes, Halberd exists... you're not always going to have access to every type of weapon. So weapons with special properties are gifted to select units at different intervals of the game. You cannot transform the early Zanbato into a Horseslayer.

Edited October 22, 2017 by DLuna

[deranger2]

Rescue dropping in Ch5 seems reasonable, rewards for not using those units in combat/for other things. In terms of game flow, the intended order is I,P,2,5,1,1x,3,4,4x,6,7,7x,9,8,10,11,12, which you might not be a fan of. I prefer playing in chronological order, personally (doable on not classic, after you've beaten the game, since you just replay and things and continued data is only dependent on the actually relevant previous chapter(s)). 

Anyways, I think I understand what you're saying a little better about chapter flow. Not sure if Eliza's chapters are still considered early. What you have in mind might be better suited to Hard Mode, to allow normal mode players to go their own pace. I also think that just maximizing speed while just agroing can be fun. The problem with forcing flow is it requires a bit of fine tuning to difficulty, I imagine. Currently, there are some advantages to going fast/jumping sharks, if the right time to do something is early, but it seems you want more.

I don't really think making mages as common as physical units, or even more common than they are, is a good way to make differing types of magic matter more. If you want them to be more different for when not fighting other mages- I just don't feel that way, but can't give you crap for feeling so. For pcs they're differentiated by stats and supports, for enemies, them being similar unless you're using a mage to fight them is fair. Zweis show up more than diviners (though less than all 3 heavy mages combined), so they're sort of one type of thing, and sort of three.

Eiry occasionally doubles (once losing only 1 AS from tomes). Staff usage is kind of amazing in training, particularly with the weapons scroll available so early on. Eiry had a bit of a change in the recent version. In general, Eiry's damage output destroys Magnus's, albiet her new found lack of skl makes it inconsistent. Her def growth is pretty high, unlike everything else. Much less of a growth dependent unit than Magnus. I find they play very differently, not in the least because a promoted Eiry allows training.

I did miss that point, thanks for the clarification.

[Cid_Garr]

W8 so how do u get chapter 1x and 4x? I played normally but i did not get it. 

[Dunal]

9 hours ago, deranger2 said:

Anyways, I think I understand what you're saying a little better about chapter flow. Not sure if Eliza's chapters are still considered early. What you have in mind might be better suited to Hard Mode, to allow normal mode players to go their own pace. I also think that just maximizing speed while just agroing can be fun. The problem with forcing flow is it requires a bit of fine tuning to difficulty, I imagine. Currently, there are some advantages to going fast/jumping sharks, if the right time to do something is early, but it seems you want more.

Again, it's not so much that this type of gameplay exists. It's more to do with the fact that it persists far too long. You don't necessarily need defend maps for variation -- just enemy behaviour/formations that's frequently more dynamic than armies mostly just waiting for you to lure them in separately. It's a non-issue to have this now and again especially in the early game, but shouldn't primarily define a whole map.

I get that a lot of FE games have this kind of gameplay, often frequently; but it's not ideal.

Enemies coordinating together to form formations and their own objectives would be a great step forward. The player's task can then be to intercept and be reactive to what the enemy is doing, which offers a lot of strategy and replay value. Eliza's route and the last couple chapters in Uther's route are especially guilty of prolonging a gameplay style that has so much more potential to be better. It's not just about reinforcements and/or enemies charging at you -- but the possibility for interesting enemy behaviour and strategy. Formation switching/setup (enemies moving in sequence or in a timed fashion to setup more difficult groups for you to take on, or planning on enemy's part before they then charge you) is an excellent thing to explore. Not that I'm advocating Advanced Wars with a Fire Emblem skin -- but it's just a good direction to think about for some maps. Enemies have already been made to rescue each other for movement purposes and that's the type of behaviour I'd like to see more of.

9 hours ago, deranger2 said:

don't really think making mages as common as physical units, or even more common than they are, is a good way to make differing types of magic matter more. If you want them to be more different for when not fighting other mages- I just don't feel that way, but can't give you crap for feeling so. For pcs they're differentiated by stats and supports, for enemies, them being similar unless you're using a mage to fight them is fair. Zweis show up more than diviners (though less than all 3 heavy mages combined), so they're sort of one type of thing, and sort of three.

Eiry occasionally doubles (once losing only 1 AS from tomes). Staff usage is kind of amazing in training, particularly with the weapons scroll available so early on. Eiry had a bit of a change in the recent version. In general, Eiry's damage output destroys Magnus's, albiet her new found lack of skl makes it inconsistent. Her def growth is pretty high, unlike everything else. Much less of a growth dependent unit than Magnus. I find they play very differently, not in the least because a promoted Eiry allows training.

Fair enough. I don't think it's absolutely necessary for mages to be as common; 30-40% of enemies being magical would be a good balance. It benefits to make RES a more important stat as well. However, if 1-2 range is always the case, then it's not really possible to increase numbers.

'Disruption' is a cool skill, just situational even despite changes to WTA (which is better than it being outright irrelevant, granted). Mages still have huge RES -- I doubt Magnus or Eiry would care about enemy casters with Disruption. Still, it's a better direction than Focus, which worked against their movement. I found use for it against Richard when using Magnus.

And ultimately, I think the main reason why Magnus or Eiry feel as underwhelming as they do as units (Eiry moreso than Magnus), is because a chunk of their power budget is having massive RES. Magnus hits like a wet noodle except with Elthunder some of the time (if he hits with it). Same with Eiry, but throw in lower HP/DEF.

But their worst problem comes from the 4-move, combined with the map design past CH7 being really bad for it. It's difficult to justify rescue-dropping either of them when Hassar/Toni deal better damage (even against lower RES enemies) and have more movement. Even someone like Marcus can often put out similar damage with a Javelin. Magnus can be utilised on enemy phase, but the damage he would be dealing back is unimpressive. There are a fair few enemies with strong RES and they don't get any kind of effective damage or powerful tools until Arcthunder later on. 

Magnus would benefit from ~6 less RES and ~3 more base MAG. That would probably put him a decent spot and create a more individual niche for Eiry. Move would still be bad; but may make rescue dropping more worth while. 

Eiry I'm not really sure the best direction to improve her. Her stats look good on paper, but between the same movement issue and not being able to take much pressure, her role basically boils down to dealing average poke to most enemies aside from the occasional anima user. She's not really all that flexible as a unit. And maps like 7x where you'd want to be training her, are completely unsuited for deployment. And I'm not a huge fan with deploying units just for the sake of EXP. Maybe she's just an Est archetype (due to being such a low level) that isn't meant for early efficiency. I suppose that's fine to a degree. I would personally have her join with a Flux tome (along with Shade) for some risk/reward in damage output (similar to Fire/Elthunder in Magnus's case). Lowering Shade's WT by just 1 would help as well.

However, aside from those two units (and Cybil) every other unit in the game seems fine (the thieves look weak on paper, but they utilise effective/reaver weapons especially well, and are a high enough level to promote with low investment for the extra move/utility). Cybil is basically a ferry/support bot -- her combat is fairly underwhelming, making her early training period not very rewarding as a result (aside from those purposes). Granted Pegs offer a lot of utility, but it's not exactly like she'd be too powerful if she just started out as a LV1 Peg with her averages. The fact that she doesn't just means you need to put in extra work just for an average/typical Peg Knight.

But otherwise, it's all seems good. You could say that Jericho shares the same issue(s) as Magnus/Airy, but that extra point of movement is more significant than you'd think, and hits reasonably hard with Flux. It might also be relative to other units they're with and the maps they're on.

Edited October 23, 2017 by DLuna

[Myke]

B- Just a quick post to let people know that the OSX version is now stable! I'll address the discussion above tomorrow :)

[Kruggov]

9 hours ago, Cid_Garr said:

W8 so how do u get chapter 1x and 4x? I played normally but i did not get it. 

For 1x you need to kill Tesla before he opens the chest - basically park Celeste there about the time he starts moving, as she two-shots him. IDK about 4x yet.

[Dunal]

1 minute ago, Kruggov said:

For 1x you need to kill Tesla before he opens the chest - basically park Celeste there about the time he starts moving, as she two-shots him. IDK about 4x yet.

Possibly could be to do with visiting all houses and/or recruiting Elle. Or it's just a turn limit which is pretty common for a gaiden requirement.

Can't really think what else it could be unless it's really specific, so I'm willing to bet it's either of those.

[Kruggov]

39 minutes ago, DLuna said:

Possibly could be to do with visiting all houses and/or recruiting Elle. Or it's just a turn limit which is pretty common for a gaiden requirement.

Well I did visit all the houses (exp for Brendan, yay!) and got Elle, and I did get the gaiden.

Btw this chapter also really showed how much of a difference ther is between Tristan's and Eliza's teams.

Also Melanie, calm down, 11 def, you'll soon outtank both Eliza and Brendan,

[SullyMcGully]

I'm thinking of trying this game again soon, but I have a few questions from the last time I started.

1. Should I treat Uther as a psuedo-promoted unit, like Alm and Celica in Echoes?

2. Should I be trying to use all of the units, or should I pick a few and bench the rest like in traditonal FE?

3. Where can I find information about missable items/character recruitment/gaiden requirements?

[Kruggov]

42 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

1. Should I treat Uther as a psuedo-promoted unit, like Alm and Celica in Echoes?

2. Should I be trying to use all of the units, or should I pick a few and bench the rest like in traditonal FE?

3. Where can I find information about missable items/character recruitment/gaiden requirements?

Well, my knowledge is limited, as I only played up to Ch.6, but I'll tell anything I know.

0. You can't switch out of Uther's chapters until after Ch.5 - don't panic like I did)))

1. More like Uther is a Tier-1 unit, while everyone else you get in his chapters except Eagler and Hassar is a trainee. IMO, prioritise them, but don't forget Uther either. Ditto for Tristan (Celeste is an exception), but not Eliza - AFAIK she doesn't get a single trainee. Also, Trainees don't get that much more EXP compared to Tier-1's so there's that. As a trade off, they are generally combat ready off the bat)))

2. Try them all out. I don't think that any of the units are much worse than the rest. Then again, you'll probably need every hand you can get in early chapters.

3. There is a guide, but it's for version 0.5.1.4 so there might be inaccuracies, and it's Uther's chapters only. It's here. For Ch.1x kill the boss before he opens the chest (easy), for Ch4x read mine and DLuna's posts above. AFAIK, the lords' exclusive weapons are one-time, but you can get weapon-repair kits.

Tip - try to enter the non-village houses with prepromotes - they give flat 10 EXP to whoever enters them, regardless of if they are a Trainee, Tier-1 or promoted.

[Dunal]

In normal mode, I think it's fair to say that you should just use everyone to a moderate degree, then in Part 2, just stick to the units who were (more) blessed in stat gains.

In hard, it's probably preferable to dedicate to a group, and replace units with newer ones along the way if they get screwed. That's ultimately the purpose of Fargus, Bennett or the substitute cavs. Drop a trainee if they haven't grown too well. 

 

By the way, I think a partial solution for Magnus/Eiry would be an early pair of Boots (that only increase movement by 1 -- which lets you introduce 1 or 2 more pairs later on). That's a pretty elegant solution to their primary issue if you choose to use them. I do still think they need some stat changes (one of them needs a RES nerf in exchange for other stats, in order to make enemy 'Disruption's actually relevant against you and also to separate their niches). I suppose Eiry could potentially be unchanged if said boots were introduced, since she's a soft-Est that I can imagine being good with long-term investment. Both being RES tanks is too overlapping though, and Magnus could use more offence at base in return.

Plus, it makes thematic sense for Magnus to have worse RES from a character standpoint. He's relatively a newbie to magic, so hasn't honed the ability to protect himself against it. He's talented in using magic, but I imagine a lot of knowledge is needed to endure it, as opposed to 'talent' to order to utilise it.

Edited October 23, 2017 by DLuna

[BBHood217]

So, I have to ask.  What does this all mean for FEXNA?  Will the long wait finally end soon?

[deranger2]

7 hours ago, DLuna said:

In normal mode, I think it's fair to say that you should just use everyone to a moderate degree, then in Part 2, just stick to the units who were (more) blessed in stat gains.

In hard, it's probably preferable to dedicate to a group, and replace units with newer ones along the way if they get screwed. That's ultimately the purpose of Fargus, Bennett or the substitute cavs. Drop a trainee if they haven't grown too well. 

 

By the way, I think a partial solution for Magnus/Eiry would be an early pair of Boots (that only increase movement by 1 -- which lets you introduce 1 or 2 more pairs later on). That's a pretty elegant solution to their primary issue if you choose to use them. I do still think they need some stat changes (one of them needs a RES nerf in exchange for other stats, in order to make enemy 'Disruption's actually relevant against you and also to separate their niches). I suppose Eiry could potentially be unchanged if said boots were introduced, since she's a soft-Est that I can imagine being good with long-term investment. Both being RES tanks is too overlapping though, and Magnus could use more offence at base in return.

Plus, it makes thematic sense for Magnus to have worse RES from a character standpoint. He's relatively a newbie to magic, so hasn't honed the ability to protect himself against it. He's talented in using magic, but I imagine a lot of knowledge is needed to endure it, as opposed to 'talent' to order to utilise it.

The heavy mages have both great player phases and enemy phases. One to two range means they can attack without retaliation on player phase, and can counter anything on enemy phase, and have enough def and res to take the hit. That's a rare thing in this game, by design. Well, to me, that's just true for Eiry, I think Magnus is shit due to a lack of damage output, but anyways. Their ability be solid both on the player and enemy phase, particularly against enemy mages, often makes them worth rescue dropping when their movement is inadequate. 

Eiry does have some of the worst growths in the game. I think Eiry's defence is a lot better than you're remembering, though. That growth is one of the good ones. She's solid enough to not need any more consideration on enemy phase than most other units. I'll admit that the last 3 or so that I've used have all been spd blessed, but even without that, she can double a fair number of enemies (at t1 plus, obviously).It puts her in a position to deal a lot of damage in a lot of situations, often when noone else can (ex: armours- can't take down lieutenant with an armorslayer very well anymore, and even the heavy spear sets up for nasty retaliation) I won't complain if you convince Yeti to lessen the nerf on Eiry, though.

I also think you're undervaluing how many turns Cybil can save, mostly by visiting villages, and possibly by limiting Bennet if you don't want to commit too many people to that side. Also, is the most likely to be in the right place at the right time in Ch11. Her stats aren't terrible or great, but her utility makes her indispensable to me. Also, her quick support with Toni patches her weaknesses right up, and makes Toni a bit more absurd.

Edited October 24, 2017 by deranger2

[Myke]

Quote

    my main criticism at this stage would how the game relies far too much on bait and switch strategies

B- Well firstly, "bait and switch" play gives low-move tanks something to do. You say that Magnus is underwhelming and difficult to use, but chapter 9, 11, and 12 are his favourite chapters. There needs to be a number of them or the balance shifts back to mount emblem. It's also the most accessible form of play, and reduces the skill barrier/makes it easier for growth-screwed teams to make it into endgame.

Quote

    So if CH4 was changed a lot and CH4x stayed relatively the same, it would feel a lot better.
    7x is the worst map in the game IMO

B- Your notes on ch4 and ch7x are welcome, we'll look into that.

Quote

    CH9 = Bait and switch

B- Sounds like you should be playing ch9 on hard.

Quote

    CH11 = Bait and switch

C- Did we play the same ch11? The one with the stationary lieutenants with ranged weapons? With the enemies you can flank as they are engaging the citizen units? With the fortified warrior/fighter group who force you to take the offensive, and then react to their counter-attack? With the reinforcements that spring just as you pass their spawn point?
B- Literally the only groups I can think of that would satisfy your condition are the first wave of enemies (to give you the initiative and allow you to gain a foothold on your own terms), the mercs, and the monks.
B- A lot of the maps you are decrying have elements like this, with groups moving dependent on you crossing a threshold, reinforcements timed to hit just as you would be "baiting" another group, or some side objective like rescuing Bennet to vary up the play. We're starting to do this sort of thing a lot more, but if you think 4 and 11 need more of it, we'll look into it.

B- Also, 11 doesn't follow 9, it follows 10. So even if it WAS primarily "bait and switch" as you assert, it comes after a break where you're doing other interesting maps as Tristan.

Quote

    The saving grace here is CH10 (a great map) being in the middle of it all.

B- Right, exactly.

Quote

 

    CH12 Part 1 = Bait and Switch.

    CH12 Part 2 = Bait and Switch.

 

B- Ch12 is designed to be a gauntlet of all the things you've encountered so far. Fog, chests and doors, siege weaponry, powerful mini-bosses, side objectives, etc etc etc. If the basic structure wasn't "bait and switch" then there would be too much going on to handle.

B- Nothing much to say about the mage debate, Yeti has taken a liking to the idea of 1-range tomes, though. One thing is that our philosophy has largely been about standardising the roster so that each build and weapon combo is on equal footing with any other, whether it be light lance vs light axe or heavy anima vs heavy elder, or even heavy elder vs armour axe. Breaking up the light and heavy mages into six different variants seems like it would run counter to that.

 

Quote

    This can be done through enemies moving on X turn, moving when you're close but not necessarily in range, or outright having enemies who are travelling to create a formation or obstructing an objective.

B- This sort of thing already exists in the game, see above on my notes on ch11. Likely you were just playing so well that you didn't notice, or you disrupted their formations by breaking them early. You haven't made it clear what difficulty you're on, but if you're on hard, we can consider making it harder. There is talk of a lunatic mode, but we'll see.

Quote

    I wouldn't know because I may be playing too efficiently/fast for it to happen

B- Yeah, exactly.

 

B- Anyway, thanks for the input. It's clear you care a lot about the game, and we appreciate that :)

[Dunal]

7 hours ago, Myke said:

B- Well firstly, "bait and switch" play gives low-move tanks something to do. You say that Magnus is underwhelming and difficult to use, but chapter 9, 11, and 12 are his favourite chapters. There needs to be a number of them or the balance shifts back to mount emblem. It's also the most accessible form of play, and reduces the skill barrier/makes it easier for growth-screwed teams to make it into endgame.

I would disagree on the basis where when the maps are really big, units with lower mobility need extra help and/or be really powerful to be justified. On smaller maps these units will usually have more target selection and won't need to worry about utilising their full movement to progress -- which for these units can pose a problem when other units are far ahead (and "baiting" at a faster pace). Rescue-dropping solves this to a degree, but still something other units don't need which can make them more practical.

Magnus at least has Arcthunder starting CH 11 which certainly helps, but for a unit as a whole he suffers from being weak in the maps that are more practical for him to exist in (CH7 and CH6 to a lesser extent, which is still a larger map) and when he does start to get pretty good, the maps following that are not as suited for him while not necessarily being stronger than other units. You don't get a massive amount of deployment slots at this point, so there is contest for units who have similar reward for being faster. It's the type of environment where the more efficient/better you play, the worse these types of units become. If you're playing slower, then mobility may not be important.

Still, in Magnus's case, his primary issue may stem from being quite weak early (damage-wise) which factors into growth momentum (where if a unit is weak early on, they'll gain less EXP when playing practically) so that's why he may not be too powerful later on either (or as much as he should be). Either way, I do stand by him having a lot lower RES in return for extra base MAG. Feeding him kills early would be easier which will benefit him later on. In return, being weaker against magic separates him further from Eiry.

For Eiry in particular, I'm still not too certain whether she's in a good spot or not, to be honest. If she's a soft-Est that's meant to be really powerful come part 2 (and if part 2 is difficult enough to justify growth units) then that's fine. I suppose there's some room for that archetype depending on difficulty. It's not that she's terrible early on, and I think that her RES-tank nature being shared by Magnus is part of why she doesn't feel too great (it isn't an overly powerful niche either). An earlier Flux tome would do wonders though, and the addition of early Boots would be great for their efficiency. +1 movement is pretty huge and would instantly make them at least decent. 

Wallace and/or Hyde have the same factor. But they're decently strong from the get-go and can promote immediately if preferred. So in comparison they're fine; even if they're mid-tier or not overly powerful, that seems appropriate. Same goes for Celeste.

 

Also worth mentioning, perhaps the issue with Magnus/Eiry/Cybil is reliance on kills as trainees to reach an appropriate state. It would be great if EXP for non-kills increased by 5-8 points as trainees in general, but kill-EXP stays the same. You could have a system where the first attack by a trainee on any particular enemy only applies this, so you can't abuse it. Doubt it's necessary though since it'll kill your turn ranking if you do that, by definition.

It would also benefit to bump up Cybil's base level to 7 or 8 IMO with a couple stat adjustments. Perhaps Toni could go down to 5 just so there's some variation here. After all, she's already a great unit that deals good damage from range. It won't hurt her too much. Just lower Toni's promotion gains slightly to counteract the extra level or two.

7 hours ago, Myke said:

B- Sounds like you should be playing ch9 on hard.

Noted. That said, I don't really have a problem with that map; it's more to do with the variety of gameplay (going from bottom-to-top of the map and killing enemies blocking the way. Which persists until the end of part 1). 

Regarding CH 11; my comments on that allude to the gameplay just feeling like cleaning up enemies as you make the way up to the boss. But a symptom regarding the repetitive nature  of this may be the difficulty, at least on normal. There's zero sense of urgency and I feel that this map needs a secondary objective aside from the first 2 or 3 turns since the village/recruits are so close.

CH 12 lacked this same sense of urgency/strategy as it mostly amounted to again, just killing the idle enemies blocking the way. When a map is not making me become interested as to what the enemy is doing and how I should play around their behaviour, it becomes quite stale.

7 hours ago, Myke said:

B- Nothing much to say about the mage debate, Yeti has taken a liking to the idea of 1-range tomes, though. One thing is that our philosophy has largely been about standardising the roster so that each build and weapon combo is on equal footing with any other, whether it be light lance vs light axe or heavy anima vs heavy elder, or even heavy elder vs armour axe. Breaking up the light and heavy mages into six different variants seems like it would run counter to that.

I think it's good to experiment and find what works. 1-range magic means that you can increase the density on magic users, which then makes Disruption have far more relevance in gameplay. It also adds further gameplay opportunities for Barrier/Water and makes high RES and/or low DEF units better off. Since normally units with high DEF are favoured a lot more.

It also means that you can mix in magical enemies with archers or other ranged weapon users to create more variety in turns of enemy grouping.

I honestly think you could get away with having Thunder magic be entirely 1 range, but with 4 or 5 more MT or so. It gives Magnus a reason to use Fire and Wind magic as well. A second new tier of dark magic could work too (while keeping the 1-2 tomes in tact). But rather than increased damage, they could give a defensive boost or something. Although you could just limit this to one or two tomes like Worm.

There's potential to separate Wind and Fire magic as well. 2-3 range for Wind magic is a possibility (but maybe only if it has a HIT penalty at 3 range, like -20% or -30%). After all, Archers gain 2-3 range on promotion, so balance-wise it can probably work. Of course, that would add extra utility to anima users compared to light/dark casters, so that would need to be considered in balance. However you could also limit anima users to only two types (either Fire+Wind or Fire+Thunder, separated by Mages and Shamans).

But hey, that's only one direction you could go down. There's plenty of things you can experiment with.

7 hours ago, Myke said:

B- Your notes on ch4 and ch7x are welcome, we'll look into that.

Yeah, those are the maps in need of most changes IMO. CH 4 definitely needs to play out seperately to CH 3 and CH 3x (both of which are fine, really. 3x's smaller map keeps the gameplay flowing well. My problem is that both maps play out and end really similarly; but it's executed better in 3x).

7 hours ago, Myke said:

There is talk of a lunatic mode, but we'll see.

Only if it doesn't involve increasing enemy stats from hard. If you can think of other ways to make the game more challenging, then that would be awesome. Different enemy AI, enemy classes, maybe weaponry etc... I think it's important that enemies don't just get stronger though, since that disrupts gameplay balance and unit viability. Enemies with higher AS just mean that units reliant on doubling become bad. That's quite a bit pitfall in regards to design.

7 hours ago, Myke said:

B- Anyway, thanks for the input. It's clear you care a lot about the game, and we appreciate that :)

Just hoping to make a great game even better! From the narrative, to the animations, art, music, mechanics/features etc... All of that is excellent, especially for a fan game. You've shown to make good improvements over time as well.

Edited October 24, 2017 by DLuna

[Mistik]

I'm confused...

I played the latest version of the game and I just had 3 chapters with Tristan + 1 introduction with the great heroes crafting their weapons.
After clearing the last chapters (the one where we are against assassins in the dark and where a falcon knigt joins us), I have nothing.

After seeing the comments here, I downloaded again the files and it appears that a "chapter 3" has appears out of nowhere. So, how do we play the game ? I mean, before this I played the Tristan's campaign and it appears that the that there was a chapter 1, 1X and 8. Where are the others chapters ? I don't understand, how do I need to proceed to have the right order ? :p

Is there any additions for the Uther's campaign ?

[Kruggov]

5 hours ago, Mistik said:

I'm confused...

I played the latest version of the game and I just had 3 chapters with Tristan + 1 introduction with the great heroes crafting their weapons.
After clearing the last chapters (the one where we are against assassins in the dark and where a falcon knigt joins us), I have nothing.

After seeing the comments here, I downloaded again the files and it appears that a "chapter 3" has appears out of nowhere. So, how do we play the game ? I mean, before this I played the Tristan's campaign and it appears that the that there was a chapter 1, 1X and 8. Where are the others chapters ? I don't understand, how do I need to proceed to have the right order ? :p

Is there any additions for the Uther's campaign ?

Did you play any of Eliza's chapters? They should unlock after either Ch.1 or Ch.1x. HOW you have unlocked 8 without completing them first, IDK. They ARE connected story wise.

It seems that the files you downloaded previously were damaged/incomplete/bugged. Either that, or old save file bugged it (I couldn't play the intro on my old savefile). Anyway, play Eliza's chapters, that should unlock Ch.6 if you didn't already. After that, I can't really say, due to not completing Ch.6 yet :-P.

[Mistik]

I don't really know, I could have access to chapter 8 by pressing "down" at the world map after completing the chapter 1x, the story stayed logical : after the battle at the port against Malificient, the party went to south in the desert and after that, in some castle where assassins tried to kill everybody thanks to a guard taking a bribe :p

Maybe I'm wrong  but I didn't see any chapter 2, is it normal ?

Anyway, thanks for the intel, I'll check later :D