Arms Scroll Analysis

[Life]

The general opinion when it comes to Arms Scrolls in FE9 usually falls under one of these two categories:

1) Mist gets the Sonic Sword.

2) Bank.

However, I personally feel as if the Arms Scrolls have never been properly looked at in this game. As for that reason, I intend to do a complete analysis of each character and how an Arms Scroll would affect their performance. Wish me luck.

PS: Weapon ranks in parentheses are gained only after promotion.

[spoiler=Prologue to Chapter 13]Ike (Prologue): D Sword. Ike will never need to use an Arms Scroll ever. It takes him 120 sword uses to get to the necessary B Swords in order to use every sword available (minus the Vague Katti which he doesn't need) before Ragnell. We're talking less than 2 full Steel Swords here. After promotion, the guy starting killing stuff left and right, even without a Silver Sword (for reference, 20/1 Ike has 28 Att at chapter 18 with the Steel Blade along with 19 AS). No.

Titania (Chapter 1): A Axe, C Lance. First off, the Silver Axe is (barely) better than the Silver Lance. So the max rank that Titania actually needs is B Lances. That takes a total of 50 lance swings in order to use the Flame Lance (Tanith is a better choice), Brave Lance and Spear. Easy to do by the time these weapons appear. No.

Oscar (Chapter 1): C Lance, (E Bow/Axe/Sword). A Lances is going to be easy to get since Oscar is mono lance up until his promotion (he'll be sitting at a comfortable B rank by then). You could give Oscar A Lances immediately after promotion if that really suits your fancy but there's only 1 Silver Lance floating around until Chapter 23 and Oscar's still got 25 Atk with a Steel Lance at 20/1. I would personally stick a Killer Lance on Oscar if I need a kill rather than have him down an Arms Scroll for 5 more Atk (which is pretty good but it's only got 25 uses on it).

However, it might not be a bad idea to sink an Arms Scroll into Oscar's Axe rank (and only his Axe rank). The Steel Axe has a E rank rather than a D, meaning that Oscar needs a total of 15 swings just to get to a D. 20/1 Oscar also sports 15.65 Str, meaning that Oscar will not lose any AS from the Steel Axe's 15 Wt. We could always forge Oscar a -1 or -2 Wt Steel Axe if he gets a bit screwed in Str but it's not a big deal.

Now once Oscar makes it to D Axes (should take 1 or 2 chapters at most), we can drop him an Arms Scroll for C. This now allows him to use the Killer and Short Axes, both of which are very nice. Granted, we already have 3 proper Axe users in Titania, Boyd and Keiran but Oscar having C Axes before Chapter 20 is always a good substitute in case the RNG goddess hates you with regards to Boyd or Keiran. Makes Oscar much stronger but doesn't really help the team out.

Boyd (Chapter 1): D Axe, (E Bow). Boyd works almost the same way as Oscar. Except for the fact that the first Silver Axe pops up in the Chapter 24 shop and Boyd will easily be sitting at A Axes by then. That just leaves Boyd's bow rank.

There are 4 legitimate bow users before considering Boyd. Geoffrey is around for a total of 5 chapters, Rolf and Shinon are both garbage and Astrid is... well, she's good but she'd probably like 1 range more. That leaves us with Boyd.

Boyd is quite similar to Oscar in the fact that C Bows is really going to get him going in the 2 range game. To get there, he needs to fire 30 arrows and then eat an Arms Scroll. But that's where the similarities end. Boyd isn't going to be using an awesome weapon like the 11 Mt Steel Axe only 15 times. He needs to use a piddling 6 Mt Iron Bow a grand total of 30 times to reach D. Sure, we can forge Boyd an 11 Mt Iron Bow to match the Mt difference. But at the same time, we can forge Oscar a 16 Mt Steel Axe and it will cost Oscar 3x less than Boyd.

Setting aside the Iron Bow problem, Boyd turns into a 2 range monster with the Killer Bow in his hands. His only real competition for that weapon is Astrid and her Str is generally too weak to use the Killer Bow effectively on high Def enemies (20/2 Astrid has 16 Str against 20/3 Boyd's 21, giving Boyd enough Att to ORKO 17-4's Generals with a single critical while Astrid needs to crit both shots). Like with Oscar, Boyd turns into an offensive monster with a well placed Arms Scroll but it might not be the best option for the team. Treat like Oscar.

Rhys (Chapter 2): D Staff, (D+ Light). The Arms Scroll doesn't work on staves (cannot be "equipped") so all we're looking is Rhys' Light magic rank. It starts at the same level as Rhys' staff rank at the time which is probably going to be either a B or A at the time (Rhys gains B Staves 3/4 of the way through his first Heal stick). He's really not going to need the Arms Scroll since the only A Light tome is Nosferatu and that thing makes Rhys weigh more than a fat man with a year's supply of Twinkies. No.

Shinon (Chapter 3): A Bow. Let me just say it now. The Double Bow is absolute garbage and Shinon can wield every other bow at base. No.

Gatrie (Chapter 3): D Lance, (E Sword). Wow, Gatrie's weapon levels suck. Anyway, Gatrie needs 20 uses of the Steel Lance to get to C Lances. This is probably doable by the time he leaves but the real question is how fast he can get to A Lances. A Silver Lance sits in one of Chapter 16's chests and that thing would do absolute wonders for Gatrie's offense if you don't want to forge him a +5 Atk Steel Lance (because you're busy forging weapons for actual good units). In order to reach A Lances as quick as possible, Gatrie needs another 50 WExp between the middle of Chapter 13 and the end of Chapter 16, on top of an Arms Scroll afterwards. While his offense will certainly be great (20/1 Gatrie is looking at 34 Atk during Chapter 17-3 which actually ORKOs Knights and 2HKOs just about everything in existance), I'm not completely sure that I can see it happening. Don't bother raising his sword rank, Gatrie sucks with them. If Gatrie can somehow achieve B Lances by Chapter 17 and doesn't have a +5 Atk Steel Lance forge, try it out. Otherwise, don't bother.

Soren (Chapter 4): D Wind, E Fire, E Thunder, (D Fire, D Thunder). I mentioned the sages in the tier list but I'm going to repeat myself here. Any mage needs a C rank to use a siege tome in that element. Soren's going to hit C Wind by the end of Chapter 7 (if you're using Soren right, he'll finish up his first Wind tome by then) and is given auto D Fire and D Thunder on promotion. If you don't care which siege tome Soren uses, he'll be ready by the time the first Blizzard drops in Chapter 23. If you want Soren to use Bolting from Chapter 17 onwards, simply buy 2 Thunders from the Chapter 10 shop and don't use Wind or Elwind. Soren shouldn't need an Arms Scroll for any reason. No.

Mia (Chapter 7): D Sword. Originally I believed that Mia wouldn't need an Arms Scroll but A -> S requires 70 swings of a sword, usually closer to 35. Considering that Mia is going to promote with B Swords, this gives her quite fast access to the Vague Katti... if Stefan isn't in play. Realistically, no, but Mia can do some pretty cool things with the Vague Katti and an Arms Scroll speeds it up by a lot.

Ilyana (Chapter 8): D Thunder, E Fire, E Wind, (D Fire, D Wind). See the Soren entry. Ilyana is a lock for C Thunder (40 Thunders or 20 Elthunders) and can use the Chapter 16 Bolting quickly. After that, train the Fire rank (2 Fire tomes is enough) to use Meteor. See Soren.

Rolf (Chapter 9): E Bows. I've put a bit of time into thinking about Rolf and it's possible that the kid is actually salvageable with an Arms Scroll (he'll still be mediocre). I'd need to do some testing of this since it involves Rolf having C Bows by the end of Chapter 13 (without downing the second Arms Scroll). But Longbow access from Chapter 10 on sounds pretty neat.

Mist (Chapter 9): D Staff, (D Sword). And now we're at Mist. This entry alone could easily be an essay so I'll try to keep it short.

The general idea of sinking an Arms Scroll (and usually both) into Mist is for her to use the Sonic Sword. Assuming a 10/1 Mist (best time to seal her if only for the horse), she's only got 19 Atk with a forged Steel Sword which costs just under 4000G in order to maximize Mist's offense. It still takes 20 hits to move up to C and 19 Atk is borderline pathetic when Mist needs to go up close to attack. Putting both Arm Scrolls on Mist should free up the Sonic Sword. But even with the SS, 10/10 Mist only sports 23 Atk from afar. All the Sonic Sword does is give Mist passable offense. If you want Mist to fight, give her the Arms Scrolls. Otherwise, forget it.

Marcia (Chapter 9): D Lance, (E Sword). I can't honestly think of a reason to throw Marcia an Arms Scroll. Unlike Gatrie (who has identical ranks), she actually doubles and is easily worth a Steel Lance forge. And like Boyd/Oscar, giving her an Arms Scroll for her sword rank makes her better quicker but it doesn't have a real effect (it's even less noticable than either of the brothers since Oscar gets 1-2 range with the Short Axe while Boyd has a legitimate shot at the possibly uncontested Brave Bow) It's just self-improvement for the sake of self-improvement. See Oscar and Boyd.

Volke (Chapter 10): Knives. Next.

Keiran (Chapter 11): C Axe, (E Sword/Lance/Bow) Keiran is almost exactly like Oscar except with one twist. Innate Gamble.

If Keiran were to sport a Killing Edge and use Gamble, the guy would have nuts Crit and then decent accuracy on top of that (Killing Edge has more Hit than Killer Lance). Dropping him an Arms Scroll lets you abuse Gamble earlier. See Oscar but think Gamble.

Brom (Chapter 11): D Lance, (E Sword). Brom's weapon levels suck. Marcia had those 2 chapters ago. That being said, C level lances are starting to appear and Brom would like them. The Killer Lance shows up in this chapter and the Short Spear's been around since the start of Chapter 7 (though it's probably half broken by now). Brom would really appreciate the Crit boost from the Killer Lance (considering that he's not going to be doubling shit for a long while) but there are much better units to use the Killer Lance (like the one I'm about to mention next), not to mention that he'll fall off the wagon soon for only having 5 Move (6 on promotion). Don't bother using it for his sword rank. If you want to salvage Brom, have him pop down the Arms Scroll immediately.

Nephenee (Chapter 11): E Lance. Nephenee gets a lot of heat for starting with only E Lances since she requires an Iron Lance forge for her offense. But consider this. For Nephenee to start going nuts, she needs C Lances for the Killer Lance (has something to do with her innate Wrath). At the very least, this requires 30 Iron Lance uses and then another 20 Steel Lance uses. Why not drop her an Arms Scroll and start using a Steel Lance right away? Now she only needs 20 attacks and a Killer Lance is going to have her destroying shit.

Mathwise, Level 12/0 Nephenee has 22 Atk with an Iron Lance forge. Without an Arms Scroll, she's got to use that Iron Lance at least 30 times before moving to Steel. Meanwhile, that same Nephenee with an Arms Scroll sports 20 Atk with a Steel Lance but is also only 20 attacks away from using the Killer Lance, which is possible by the end of Chapter 13. She only loses 3 AS which drops her to about 9~10 AS, too fast to be doubled. I see an Arms Scroll on Neph as being something that immediately pulls her out of her major rut (her start). Uses the Arms Scroll well in order to get good much quicker.

Zihark (Chapter 11): C Sword. I'm currently thinking of a furry joke to place here. Oh and he's exactly like Mia since he's guaranteed to reach B Swords by promotion. See Mia.

Jill (Chapter 12): D Lance, (E Axe). Once again, she's a top unit who doesn't really gain anything life changing from an Arms Scroll. You could drop her one after promotion to shorten the time until Killer Axes but that doesn't really achieve anything special. See Oscar, Boyd, Keiran, Marcia...

Sothe (Chapter 13): Knives. Useless little cunt...

Astrid (Chapter 13): D Bow, (E Sword/Lance/Axe). I was kinda hoping that Astrid had E Bows because that would be immediate access to Steel Bows upon an Arms Scroll but she's got D Bows and a Killer Bow is more than slightly wasted on her 6 Str. An Arms Scroll doesn't salvage Astrid, BExp does. After promotion is the same as Oscar and co. but a much less inferior version. No.

More will come later.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Life

[Florete]

Oscar (Chapter 1):...(he should be sporting A and a half by the time he promotes)

Based on this line, there is something that should be noted:

Note 3: Non-promoted characters can reach a maximum B Rank (Weapon EXP towards an A Rank cannot be obtained)

[Life]

Based on this line, there is something that should be noted:

Note 3: Non-promoted characters can reach a maximum B Rank (Weapon EXP towards an A Rank cannot be obtained)

Thank you very much for pointing that out, Fox. Tell me about any other corrections I should make.

My goal here is to look at how each unit can possibly gain use out of the Arms Scrolls. I'm assuming reasonable levels ASSUMING that said character is in play. Once I hit Devdan and the units past him, you'll see some longer explainations.

[aku chi]

However, I personally feel as if the Arms Scrolls have never been properly looked at in this game. As for that reason, I intend to do a complete analysis of each character and how an Arms Scroll would affect their performance. Wish me luck.

Good luck. As Red Fox of Fire points out, unpromoted units cannot make any progress towards A ranks. You may want to revise your commentary; this occasionally plays an important role.

Ike (Prologue): D Sword. Ike will never need to use an Arms Scroll ever. It takes him 150 sword uses to get to the necessary A Swords in order to use every sword available (minus the Vague Katti which he doesn't need) before Ragnell. We're talking 2 full Steel Swords and 10 uses of an Iron Sword. Pointless on him. No.

An arms scroll right after promotion lets Ike wield the Silver Blade a little earlier, but this probably isn't worth it (a Steel forge is generally strong enough).

Titania (Chapter 1): A Axe, C Lance. First off, the Silver Axe is (barely) better than the Silver Lance. So the max rank that Titania needs is B Lances. That takes a total of 50 lance swings in order to use the Flame Lance (Tanith is a better choice), Brave Lance and Spear. Easy to do by the time these weapons appear. No.

A Lances isn't meaningless for Titania, because a Silver Lance is available many chapters earlier than a Silver Axe (C16), but Titania won't have any issues reaching A Lances if you are aware of this fact.

Oscar (Chapter 1): C Lance, (E Bow/Axe/Sword). S Lances is going to be easy to get since Oscar is mono lance up until his promotion (he should be sporting A and a half by the time he promotes). However, it might not be a bad idea to sink an Arms Scroll into Oscar's Axe rank (and only his Axe rank). The Steel Axe has a E rank rather than a D, meaning that Oscar needs a total of 15 swings just to get to a D. 20/1 Oscar also sports 15.65 Str, meaning that Oscar will not lose any AS from the Steel Axe's 15 Wt. We could always forge Oscar a -1 or -2 Wt Steel Axe if he gets a bit screwed in Str but it's not a big deal.

Now once Oscar makes it to D Axes (should take 1 or 2 chapters at most), we can drop him an Arms Scroll for C. This now allows him to use the Killer and Short Axes, both of which are very nice. Granted, we already have 3 proper Axe users in Titania, Boyd and Keiran but Oscar having C Axes before Chapter 20 is always a good substitute in case the RNG goddess hates you with regards to Boyd or Keiran. Makes Oscar much stronger but doesn't really help the team out.

Oscar is in a tricky situation. After promotion, the question is whether to focus on getting A Lances or try to get A Axes. The latter is better in the long run, but probably won't be available in time for Silver forges without an Arms Scroll.

Boyd (Chapter 1): D Axe, (E Bow). There are 4 legitimate bow users before considering Boyd. Geoffrey is around for a total of 5 chapters, Rolf and Shinon are both garbage and Astrid is... well, she's good but she'd probably like 1 range more. That leaves us with Boyd.

Boyd is quite similar to Oscar in the fact that C Bows is really going to get him going in the 2 range game. To get there, he needs to fire 30 arrows and then eat an Arms Scroll. But that's where the similarities end. Boyd isn't going to be using an awesome weapon like the 11 Mt Steel Axe only 15 times. He needs to use a piddling 6 Mt Iron Bow a grand total of 30 times to reach D. Sure, we can forge Boyd an 11 Mt Iron Bow to match the Mt difference. But at the same time, we can forge Oscar a 16 Mt Steel Axe and it will cost Oscar 3x less than Boyd.

Setting aside the Iron Bow problem, Boyd turns into a 2 range monster with the Killer Bow in his hands. His only real competition for that weapon is Astrid and her Str is generally too weak to use the Killer Bow effectively on high Def enemies (20/2 Astrid has 16 Str against 20/3 Boyd's 21, giving Boyd enough Att to ORKO 17-4's Generals with a single critical while Astrid needs to crit both shots). Like with Oscar, Boyd turns into an offensive monster with a well placed Arms Scroll but it might not be the best option for the team. Treat like Oscar.

If Boyd is our only Bow user, we might want to get him up to B Bows for the Brave Bow. This will take an Arms Scroll or two.

Rhys (Chapter 2): D Staff, (D+ Light). The Arms Scroll doesn't work on staves (cannot be "equipped") so all we're looking is Rhys' Light magic rank. It starts at the same level as Rhys' staff rank at the time which is probably going to be either a B or A at the time (Rhys gains B Staves 3/4 of the way through his first Heal stick). He's really not going to need the Arms Scroll since the only A Light tome is Nosferatu and that thing makes Rhys weigh more than a fat man with a year's supply of Twinkies. No.

Rhys has 0 weapon rank concerns.

Shinon (Chapter 3): A Bow. Let me just say it now. The Double Bow is absolute garbage and Shinon can wield every other bow at base. No.

Agreed.

Gatrie (Chapter 3): D Lance, (E Sword). Wow, Gatrie's weapon levels suck. Anyway, Gatrie needs 20 uses of the Steel Lance to get to C Lances. This is probably doable by the time he leaves but the real question is how fast he can get to A Lances. A Silver Lance sits in one of Chapter 16's chests and that thing would do absolute wonders for Gatrie's offense if you don't want to forge him a +5 Atk Steel Lance (because you're busy forging weapons for actual good units). In order to reach A Lances as quick as possible, Gatrie needs another 50 WExp between the middle of Chapter 13 and the end of Chapter 16, on top of an Arms Scroll afterwards. While his offense will certainly be great (20/1 Gatrie is looking at 34 Atk during Chapter 17-3 which actually ORKOs Knights and 2HKOs just about everything in existance), I'm not completely sure that I can see it happening. Don't bother raising his sword rank, Gatrie sucks with them. If Gatrie can somehow achieve B Lances by Chapter 17 and doesn't have a +5 Atk Steel Lance forge, try it out. Otherwise, don't bother.

The early Silver Lance isn't something worth using an Arms Scroll on; it just saves us a Steel forge (Titania is the logical candidate for it anyway). Gatrie will be fine with his Lance rank and there's no really reason to develop his Sword rank.

Soren (Chapter 4): D Wind, E Fire, E Thunder, (D Fire, D Thunder). I mentioned the sages in the tier list but I'm going to repeat myself here. Any mage needs a C rank to use a siege tome in that element. Soren's going to hit C Wind by the end of Chapter 7 (if you're using Soren right, he'll finish up his first Wind tome by then) and is given auto D Fire and D Thunder on promotion. If you don't care which siege tome Soren uses, he'll be ready by the time the first Blizzard drops in Chapter 23. If you want Soren to use Bolting from Chapter 17 onwards, simply buy 2 Thunders from the Chapter 10 shop and don't use Wind or Elwind. Soren shouldn't need an Arms Scroll for any reason. No.

Uh... Unless you're rolling with 2 or more Sages, Soren wants to be able to wield all of the siege tomes, which is almost impossible without Arms Scrolls. C Wind is a given, and C Thunder can be developed in time for the Chapter 22 Bolting if you work towards it, but Soren probably wants to eat an Arms Scroll post-promotion to wield Meteor (unless you're also using Calill or something).

Mia (Chapter 7): D Sword. She has mono swords, will never be behind on a rank and... yeah. No.

Well, if Mia's your only Swordmaster, she wouldn't mind an Arms Scroll post-promotion for earlier access to the Silver Blade and/or Vague Katti.

More will come later.

I look forward to it. I've got lots of thoughts on weapon ranks and Arms Scrolls.

[Life]

I actually never thought of the B level fact. That definitely changes things.

[Florete]

Uh... Unless you're rolling with 2 or more Sages, Soren wants to be able to wield all of the siege tomes, which is almost impossible without Arms Scrolls. C Wind is a given, and C Thunder can be developed in time for the Chapter 22 Bolting if you work towards it, but Soren probably wants to eat an Arms Scroll post-promotion to wield Meteor (unless you're also using Calill or something).

Two things.

1: Why do you actually need Soren to be able to wield all 3 Siege tomes anyway? I don't think you need that much long range power throughout the game.

2: Getting there isn't so hard. C Wind before promotion is a given, and promotion brings him to D in the others. The El tomes give 2 WEx, so he only needs twenty hits (10 rounds doubling, though he doesn't always double, and not even a full tome) to reach C. If you don't have that kind of time, well, that's what Calill is here for. Calill's existence does weaken Soren's case for an Arms Scroll.

[Shadow Mir]

Well, if Mia's your only Swordmaster, she wouldn't mind an Arms Scroll post-promotion for earlier access to the Silver Blade and/or Vague Katti.

I doubt that'd sound all that helpful, since you can't buy Silver Blades until the very end of the game (meaning there's only the one you find in the desert until then), and they only have 15 uses.

[Radiant Dragon]

I doubt that'd sound all that helpful, since you can't buy Silver Blades until the very end of the game (meaning there's only the one you find in the desert until then), and they only have 15 uses.

Tauroneo joins with a Silver Blade as well.

[Shadow Mir]

Tauroneo joins with a Silver Blade as well.

Darn, how'd I forget? But still, that's only 30 uses total.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[aku chi]

Two things.

1: Why do you actually need Soren to be able to wield all 3 Siege tomes anyway? I don't think you need that much long range power throughout the game.

2: Getting there isn't so hard. C Wind before promotion is a given, and promotion brings him to D in the others. The El tomes give 2 WEx, so he only needs twenty hits (10 rounds doubling, though he doesn't always double, and not even a full tome) to reach C. If you don't have that kind of time, well, that's what Calill is here for. Calill's existence does weaken Soren's case for an Arms Scroll.

1) Siege tomes are the best things about the Sages (certainly the most unique). If you don't get the C16 Bolting, Meteor is the only available siege tome for the essential C22 boss kill, so having C Fire is pretty important. Soren, in particular, can pull off some pretty cool OHKOs with Bolting, like on the C23 Ballistae operators, so C Thunder is pretty helpful as well. Blizzard is the worst of the three (obtained last and least powerful), but Soren is a lock for C Wind, so he gets to wield that for nothing. And with only 5 uses each, the more siege tomes Soren can wield, the better.

2) With an early promotion, it's possible for Soren to get C Fire by Chapter 20 and C Thunder by Chapter 23, but it isn't trivial by any means, you really have to work for it. Also, Soren is weighed down by Elfire and especially Elthunder, so we'd prefer him to wield a 1 Wexp forge instead. Also, activating Adept doesn't provide Wexp for some lame reason, so that slows down our efforts.

3) Sure, if Calill is being trained we can let her use the siege tomes. She does need to be trained to pull off a 2HKO on Schaeffer and the like, so a base Calill doesn't satisfy all of our siege needs. As I said, Soren might benefit from an Arms Scroll if he is the only Sage you're training.

[Life]

1) Siege tomes are the best things about the Sages (certainly the most unique). If you don't get the C16 Bolting, Meteor is the only available siege tome for the essential C22 boss kill, so having C Fire is pretty important. Soren, in particular, can pull off some pretty cool OHKOs with Bolting, like on the C23 Ballistae operators, so C Thunder is pretty helpful as well. Blizzard is the worst of the three (obtained last and least powerful), but Soren is a lock for C Wind, so he gets to wield that for nothing. And with only 5 uses each, the more siege tomes Soren can wield, the better.

2) With an early promotion, it's possible for Soren to get C Fire by Chapter 20 and C Thunder by Chapter 23, but it isn't trivial by any means, you really have to work for it. Also, Soren is weighed down by Elfire and especially Elthunder, so we'd prefer him to wield a 1 Wexp forge instead. Also, activating Adept doesn't provide Wexp for some lame reason, so that slows down our efforts.

3) Sure, if Calill is being trained we can let her use the siege tomes. She does need to be trained to pull off a 2HKO on Schaeffer and the like, so a base Calill doesn't satisfy all of our siege needs. As I said, Soren might benefit from an Arms Scroll if he is the only Sage you're training.

Soren in play doesn't mean that Ilyana, Tormod and Calill aren't and that he has a monopoly on the siege tomes. Soren never actually needs to wield all three tomes at the same time.

I'm going to go back and revise some entries.

[aku chi]

Soren in play doesn't mean that Ilyana, Tormod and Calill aren't and that he has a monopoly on the siege tomes. Soren never actually needs to wield all three tomes at the same time.

As I said, Soren might benefit from an Arms Scroll if he is the only Sage you're training.

[Florete]

1) Siege tomes are the best things about the Sages (certainly the most unique). If you don't get the C16 Bolting, Meteor is the only available siege tome for the essential C22 boss kill, so having C Fire is pretty important. Soren, in particular, can pull off some pretty cool OHKOs with Bolting, like on the C23 Ballistae operators, so C Thunder is pretty helpful as well. Blizzard is the worst of the three (obtained last and least powerful), but Soren is a lock for C Wind, so he gets to wield that for nothing. And with only 5 uses each, the more siege tomes Soren can wield, the better.

2) With an early promotion, it's possible for Soren to get C Fire by Chapter 20 and C Thunder by Chapter 23, but it isn't trivial by any means, you really have to work for it. Also, Soren is weighed down by Elfire and especially Elthunder, so we'd prefer him to wield a 1 Wexp forge instead. Also, activating Adept doesn't provide Wexp for some lame reason, so that slows down our efforts.

3) Sure, if Calill is being trained we can let her use the siege tomes. She does need to be trained to pull off a 2HKO on Schaeffer and the like, so a base Calill doesn't satisfy all of our siege needs. As I said, Soren might benefit from an Arms Scroll if he is the only Sage you're training.

1. Having two C's ought to be fine. Schaeffar can probably be killed without long range anyway, and even if you need it for the extra damage, base Calill ought to suffice. There's no reason Soren, even as your only Sage, should need to be able to wield all 3 when you consider there is one Meteor, one Blizzard, and 2 Boltings available for use.

2. Then work for it. If that WT is the difference between doubling, it makes no difference anyway (WEx-wise, one shot of El and two of normal is the same), and if he's getting attacked, it's unlikely to be getting him doubled. Take advantage of maps like 13 and 17-3.

[aku chi]

1. Having two C's ought to be fine. Schaeffar can probably be killed without long range anyway, and even if you need it for the extra damage, base Calill ought to suffice. There's no reason Soren, even as your only Sage, should need to be able to wield all 3 when you consider there is one Meteor, one Blizzard, and 2 Boltings available for use.

2. Then work for it. If that WT is the difference between doubling, it makes no difference anyway (WEx-wise, one shot of El and two of normal is the same), and if he's getting attacked, it's unlikely to be getting him doubled. Take advantage of maps like 13 and 17-3.

1) Only if those two Cs are Fire and Thunder or if you go out of your way to grab the C16 Bolting. Siege tomes are the only way to kill Schaeffer on turn 1, and they're the easiest way regardless. Due to Soren's poor movement, siege tomes are often going to be the only way Soren can reach an enemy. The more he can use, the better.

2) Setting up attack opportunities for Soren might not be efficient and it stifles his staff rank growth. I just barely pulled off a C Fire and C Thunder in time in a draft run with Soren where I gave him a lot of resources so he could survive exposure on enemy phase (and promoted him before C11). It's possible, but not very practical in a more traditional playthrough.

Let me close with a relevant quote (emphasis mine):

My goal here is to look at how each unit can possibly gain use out of the Arms Scrolls.

[Radiant Dragon]

2) With an early promotion, it's possible for Soren to get C Fire by Chapter 20 and C Thunder by Chapter 23, but it isn't trivial by any means, you really have to work for it. Also, Soren is weighed down by Elfire and especially Elthunder, so we'd prefer him to wield a 1 Wexp forge instead. Also, activating Adept doesn't provide Wexp for some lame reason, so that slows down our efforts.

Early promoting Sages is a horrible idea, so Soren would definitely need an Arms Scroll to use Bolting or Meteor by Chapter 22. There are only 2 Arms Scrolls in the whole game though, and Calill is right there.

3) Sure, if Calill is being trained we can let her use the siege tomes. She does need to be trained to pull off a 2HKO on Schaeffer and the like, so a base Calill doesn't satisfy all of our siege needs. As I said, Soren might benefit from an Arms Scroll if he is the only Sage you're training.

If base Calill doesn't satisfy all of our siege needs, than an early promoted Soren doesn't even come close. Besides, Bolting!Calill can 2HKO Schaeffer with +1 Mag (2 levels in 2 chapters isn't unfair, especially with BEXP and the fact that she ORKO's most enemies) and the Chapter 14 Spirit Dust.

Edited May 26, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Florete]

1) Only if those two Cs are Fire and Thunder or if you go out of your way to grab the C16 Bolting. Siege tomes are the only way to kill Schaeffer on turn 1, and they're the easiest way regardless. Due to Soren's poor movement, siege tomes are often going to be the only way Soren can reach an enemy. The more he can use, the better.

2) Setting up attack opportunities for Soren might not be efficient and it stifles his staff rank growth. I just barely pulled off a C Fire and C Thunder in time in a draft run with Soren where I gave him a lot of resources so he could survive exposure on enemy phase (and promoted him before C11). It's possible, but not very practical in a more traditional playthrough.

Let me close with a relevant quote (emphasis mine):

1. Getting the Ch 16 Bolting isn't out of reach. Read my posts here. Plus Ch 22 has a Bolting right there anyway for you get and use immediately. If Soren is reduced to using long range for normal combat, he shouldn't be in regular play anyway because he's falling behind too much and 20 total uses is not enough.

And I'm pretty sure it's possible to break through the center in Ch 22 on turn 1 with mounted units, Tigers, etc. to kill Schaeffer. Even if not, oh well, clear it in two turns or use Calill. If this is the only significant contribution Soren makes with an Arms Scroll, I hardly think it's worth it.

2. Mist and/or Rhys are there for Staff use, not Soren. He likely won't be climbing higher than D until very late anyway, and the real staff work can be more than covered by the others.

Quote: This falls under the "Gets stronger but doesn't really help the team."

[Shadow Mir]

Rolf (Chapter 9): E Bows. I've put a bit of time into thinking about Rolf and it's possible that the kid is actually salvageable with an Arms Scroll (he'll still be mediocre). I'd need to do some testing of this since it involves Rolf having C Bows by the end of Chapter 13 (without downing the second Arms Scroll). But Longbow access from Chapter 10 on sounds pretty neat.

I dunno... Longbow access would sound good, if not for their being absolutely underwhelming.

[aku chi]

My, my... I can never predict which of my comments will encourage a series of tirades. I hope that we can prevent this side discussion from carrying this topic too far from its original intent.

If base Calill doesn't satisfy all of our siege needs, than an early promoted Soren doesn't even come close.

They can team up for a 1 turn kill.

Besides, Bolting!Calill can 2HKO Schaeffer with +1 Mag (2 levels in 2 chapters isn't unfair, especially with BEXP and the fact that she ORKO's most enemies) and the Chapter 14 Spirit Dust.

Yeah, that would fall under "training Calill", at which point you don't need Soren to wield the siege tomes.

1. Getting the Ch 16 Bolting isn't out of reach. Read my posts here. Plus Ch 22 has a Bolting right there anyway for you get and use immediately.

The language I used was "out of the way". If you can get to the C16 Bolting in X turns, you could have gotten Ike to the seize square in X - 1 turns. It is out of the way. Getting the C22 Bolting to Soren on turn 1 (and still in range of a Reyson vigor) would be quite a feat. I expect it's possible, but I'm not sure. It's certainly more complicated than using Meteor.

If Soren is reduced to using long range for normal combat, he shouldn't be in regular play anyway because he's falling behind too much and 20 total uses is not enough.

Uh... what? Soren has 6 mov. He will fall behind. This is a fact. He can still be useful using staves or long rang magic. Those 15-20 uses can be very helpful. Soren can snipe Ballistae operators, kill/weaken chokepoint enemies, and injure bosses. Despite his 6 mov, he can reach enemies that no non-Sage can thanks to 3-10 range weapons.

2. Mist and/or Rhys are there for Staff use, not Soren. He likely won't be climbing higher than D until very late anyway, and the real staff work can be more than covered by the others.

Your playstyle is not the only relevant one. It is entirely possible to play efficiently without using Rhys or Mist. And it is entirely possible for Soren to reach C staves as early as C17-3 with an early Master Seal.

And I'm pretty sure it's possible to break through the center in Ch 22 on turn 1 with mounted units, Tigers, etc. to kill Schaeffer. Even if not, oh well, clear it in two turns or use Calill. If this is the only significant contribution Soren makes with an Arms Scroll, I hardly think it's worth it.

I haven't been claiming it's worth it to use an Arms Scroll on Soren, no more than I've claimed it's worth it to give an Arms Scroll to Oscar or Boyd. The purpose of this topic, insofar as I understand it, is to first recognize which characters can benefit from an Arms Scroll. This will give us a better understanding of how valuable they are and then we can ponder the best uses for them.

[Radiant Dragon]

My, my... I can never predict which of my comments will encourage a series of tirades. I hope that we can prevent this side discussion from carrying this topic too far from its original intent.

Well, this IS a sort of debate topic, after all. Besides, Soren's overrated anyway.

They can team up for a 1 turn kill.

An early promoted Soren will not be able to 2HKO Schaeffer, so he can't team up with anyone.

Getting the C22 Bolting to Soren on turn 1 (and still in range of a Reyson vigor) would be quite a feat. I expect it's possible, but I'm not sure. It's certainly more complicated than using Meteor.

Not really. Titania runs up, kills the Sage and cantos back. Then Calill walks up, trades, and hits the boss. Then Reyson vigors her.

Your playstyle is not the only relevant one. It is entirely possible to play efficiently without using Rhys or Mist. And it is entirely possible for Soren to reach C staves as early as C17-3 with an early Master Seal.

Possible, but pointless. Rhys and Mist will be better staff users, and only Sothe will boast worse offense. There is zero point to early sealing a Sage.

I haven't been claiming it's worth it to use an Arms Scroll on Soren, no more than I've claimed it's worth it to give an Arms Scroll to Oscar or Boyd. The purpose of this topic, insofar as I understand it, is to first recognize which characters can benefit from an Arms Scroll. This will give us a better understanding of how valuable they are and then we can ponder the best uses for them.

Soren can benefit from an Arms Scroll sure, but it's comparable to Zihark benefiting from a Speedwings so he can double Ravens with less BEXP.

[Florete]

The language I used was "out of the way". If you can get to the C16 Bolting in X turns, you could have gotten Ike to the seize square in X - 1 turns. It is out of the way. Getting the C22 Bolting to Soren on turn 1 (and still in range of a Reyson vigor) would be quite a feat. I expect it's possible, but I'm not sure. It's certainly more complicated than using Meteor.

If we're so determined to have long range magic, taking one extra turn to get the Bolting (and anything else the turn gets us) should not be a problem. Getting the C22 Bolting is as easy as anything; it's right there. Kill it from range with a mounted unit and Canto them back to a good spot.

Uh... what? Soren has 6 mov. He will fall behind. This is a fact. He can still be useful using staves or long rang magic. Those 15-20 uses can be very helpful. Soren can snipe Ballistae operators, kill/weaken chokepoint enemies, and injure bosses. Despite his 6 mov, he can reach enemies that no non-Sage can thanks to 3-10 range weapons.

"Gets stronger but doesn't really help the team." Except possibly for some very specific places, this is not going to significantly help in ways someone else can't, and certainly not enough to require more than two long range tomes. Helping him perform does not mean he's a significant help to the team.

Your playstyle is not the only relevant one. It is entirely possible to play efficiently without using Rhys or Mist. And it is entirely possible for Soren to reach C staves as early as C17-3 with an early Master Seal.

Now you are assuming too specific of a scenario. For your argument to work you need all of Mist, Rhys, Ilyana, Tormod, and Calill out of play. There is no reason this should be assumed just so it's reasonable to give Soren an Arms Scroll. He's not even the best unit in that list.

I haven't been claiming it's worth it to use an Arms Scroll on Soren, no more than I've claimed it's worth it to give an Arms Scroll to Oscar or Boyd. The purpose of this topic, insofar as I understand it, is to first recognize which characters can benefit from an Arms Scroll. This will give us a better understanding of how valuable they are and then we can ponder the best uses for them.

It's been established that Soren can make use of an Arms Scroll. Very few units will get nothing out of one. Thing is, I still don't agree that Soren needs an Arms Scroll to perform as well as you may need him to, all things considered.

[aku chi]

Well, this IS a sort of debate topic, after all. Besides, Soren's overrated anyway.

This topic has a particular focus on Arms Scrolls and weapon ranks. As such, I will ignore all of your irrelevant points. If you want to make an argument against Soren, perhaps the tier list topic would be a better location.

An early promoted Soren will not be able to 2HKO Schaeffer, so he can't team up with anyone.

Think really hard about what you just wrote. Notice how it doesn't make sense?

Base Calill attacks with Meteor. Reyson vigors her. Calill attacks with Meteor again. Staffbot Soren trades for Meteor and finishes off Schaeffer.

Not really. Titania runs up, kills the Sage and cantos back. Then Calill walks up, trades, and hits the boss. Then Reyson vigors her.

Have you done this? If I remember the map correctly, the Sage in question is 10 spaces away from the nearest deployment square, making "cantos back" translate into: moves one space back. It's probably possible with some clever shoving or trading, but it's not trivial.

Soren can benefit from an Arms Scroll sure, but it's comparable to Zihark benefiting from a Speedwings so he can double Ravens with less BEXP.

I strongly disagree. The only (imperfect) substitute for Soren being able to wield Meteor is using Hammerne on a Bolting. A Hammerne use is more valuable than an Arms Scroll, I would think, whereas a handful of Bexp is far less valuable than a Speedwings.

[Radiant Dragon]

Think really hard about what you just wrote. Notice how it doesn't make sense?

Base Calill attacks with Meteor. Reyson vigors her. Calill attacks with Meteor again. Staffbot Soren trades for Meteor and finishes off Schaeffer.

It makes sense when you consider having a Calill who can 2HKO Schaeffer is worth more than Staffbot!Soren, and takes less resources to boot.

Have you done this? If I remember the map correctly, the Sage in question is 10 spaces away from the nearest deployment square, making "cantos back" translate into: moves one space back. It's probably possible with some clever shoving or trading, but it's not trivial.

So we should ignore this obvious solution because the player may be lazy/inept?

I strongly disagree. The only (imperfect) substitute for Soren being able to wield Meteor is using Hammerne on a Bolting. A Hammerne use is more valuable than an Arms Scroll, I would think, whereas a handful of Bexp is far less valuable than a Speedwings.

The point I am trying to make is that giving Soren a Master Seal so he can be a worse staff bot than Mist/Rhys and an Arms Scroll so he can be a worse Siegebot than Calill is a waste.

[aku chi]

If we're so determined to have long range magic, taking one extra turn to get the Bolting (and anything else the turn gets us) should not be a problem.

Fair enough.

If Soren is reduced to using long range for normal combat, he shouldn't be in regular play anyway because he's falling behind too much and 20 total uses is not enough.

"Gets stronger but doesn't really help the team." Except possibly for some very specific places, this is not going to significantly help in ways someone else can't, and certainly not enough to require more than two long range tomes. Helping him perform does not mean he's a significant help to the team.

I don't enjoy being snarky, but I can't let this slide. Are 20 siege tome uses not enough, or are 10 uses enough? Make up your mind.

Now you are assuming too specific of a scenario. For your argument to work you need all of Mist, Rhys, Ilyana, Tormod, and Calill out of play. There is no reason this should be assumed just so it's reasonable to give Soren an Arms Scroll. He's not even the best unit in that list.

No, the only thing that Soren benefiting from an Arms Scroll depends on is not training any other Sage, which is a rather reasonable situation, no?

It's been established that Soren can make use of an Arms Scroll. Very few units will get nothing out of one. Thing is, I still don't agree that Soren needs an Arms Scroll to perform as well as you may need him to, all things considered.

I'm glad that's been established. Your second sentence is confusing me.

[Florete]

I don't enjoy being snarky, but I can't let this slide. Are 20 siege tome uses not enough, or are 10 uses enough? Make up your mind.

You were earlier talking about Soren using long range as if just for normal use, which would likely require more than just 20 shots to keep him going. 10 shots is for specific things that will actually help me progress (though I likely won't need that much).

No, the only thing that Soren benefiting from an Arms Scroll depends on is not training any other Sage, which is a rather reasonable situation, no?

But you also specified that you want to get his staff rank up, which is only helpful if Mist and Rhys are not in play. If they are, he doesn't need to use staves and can use magic to build his ranks that much faster without Arms Scrolls.

And in general, Calill is too easy to use to not assume for most of our long range magic needs, even if she isn't part of the normal "team."

[Radiant Dragon]

No, the only thing that Soren benefiting from an Arms Scroll depends on is not training any other Sage, which is a rather reasonable situation, no?

Since Calill exists, no, it is not a reasonable situation.