QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[Othin]

I don't remember it because it was that bland.

You don't remember it because you thought it was that bland, most likely because you were too young and immature when initially playing it to understand it. I know I was.

I invite you to read the FE8 analysis when Banzai posts it, you and all the others here who hold that unsupported sentiment yet insist on using words that suggest the story has an objective flaw. I believe you'll find the analysis enlightening.

Yes, there is. The entire tutorial is the evidence. Just because no one ever explicitly says, "This is what happens when a territory is left without a good Marquess! All these bandits terrorizing the villagers, GRR!" doesn't mean nothing's there.

Seriously, if we can have something like this topic at all, surely we can grasp this. You can argue that is' over-analyzing but that's the fun of being able to analyze, and clearly this analysis exists.

Never in the game was the quality of either Hausen or Lundgren as a ruler even suggested at, never was Lyn aspiring to be a good ruler ever suggested at, and in fact Lyn chooses not to become a ruler at all. What you're suggesting is not analysis; it's conjecture, conjecture which does not fit with Lyn's story at all.

None of the Fire Emblem games have macguffins in them. A macguffin is an item who's only feature is that the characters want it:

In FE6 and FE7, you spend some time trying to get the Fire Emblem. But that is not "just to drive the story", that is to open the Shrine of Seals. You try to collect Sacred Stones in FE8, but those items are crucial to defeating the Demon King.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MacGuffin

To determine if a thing is a MacGuffin, check to see if it is interchangeable. For example, in a caper story the MacGuffin could be either the Mona Lisa or the Hope diamond, it makes no difference which. The rest of the story (i.e. it being stolen) would be exactly the same. It doesn't matter which it is, it is only necessary for the characters to want it.

To use the example given by TVTropes, as far as FE7's story is concerned, you could substitute the Mona Lisa either for the item Pent is searching for or for the Fire Emblem. It'd be fucking weird if you did, but it really wouldn't change anything. To use the only the categories you and TVTropes used, Pent's item only matters because he wants it, and the Fire Emblem only matters because it was stolen. It doesn't matter at all what the actual item is or does, just that is's special.

[Balcerzak]

You don't remember it because you thought it was that bland, most likely because you were too young and immature when initially playing it to understand it. I know I was.

Clearly people in their twenties were simply not old enough to appreciate the great gem that was Sacred Stones.

Throwing around blanket assumptions about people's age is irresponsible of you.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I've actually discussed with a few people many times about how you could remove Lyn from FE7 and the game will barely change, save for Lyn's mode and a few chapters in the main story. I could probably try to answer some of your questions about some game points.

Now maybe he might have trouble explaining as to why Linus and Lloyd are needed to capture two random children, but he pretty much has Ursula and Jaffar in his pocket, so why not—Oh, wait. Ursula is there, in 7x. But she delegates the task of capturing Ninian and Nils to a subordinate, as she has "other matters to attend to." What matters? What orders does she have which are more important than capturing Ninian and Nils? Furthermore, if it was her responsibility to capture them, wouldn't she be held responsible if they got away? The Fang's law is that failure is punishable by death. Yet even though she fails to acquire Ninian and Nils, she's still alive and breathing one year later.

Ursula is loyal to Sonia, so it could be possible that Sonia gave Ursula orders and had one of her subordinates do this job.

That is honestly the explanation for her amnesia. She became lost within herself because she got separated from Nils.

Probably the event was so traumatic that Ninian went into severe repression, thus losing her memories. It's kind of a stretch but it's possible.

Then why doesn't he fight against Nergal? The only time he does anything remotely obstructive to Nergal is here in 19x where he makes Aion useless. The other times he just goes where he pleases. So yeah, if anyone can give me an explanation here I'd love to hear it.

Kishnua can't fight, of course he could just seal Nergal's magic, but Nergal probably has some form of control over the Morphs.

The next time you see Ursula she even HELPS your team.

Ursula only helps because she doesn't want to "give glory to that newcomer, Vaida". She just wants to see Eliwood and co. take out Vaida.

Paul and Jasmine are also joke bosses, in case you didn't think this game was childish enough yet.

Just following the archetype of possibly-homosexual-idiotic-bandits that FE6 set with Maggie and Rose.

Lyn seems absolutely clueless about the Eight Heroes other than Hanon the horseman, specifically unaware about Roland. This is funny because as a lord of Lycia for over a year you think she'd pick up on this. Really though she's just used as an excuse in this chapter to explain the eight heroes to the player, even though they were already explained in the map intro to Chapter 11 Eliwood.

A great example of why Lyn can be removed from the story and still it is almost the same.

In Chapter 24 you happen to bumble into the same village where Lloyd, Linus, and Jaffar are all present. You then randomly fight them.

They were ordered a few chapters back to attack Eliwood and co.

Yet he does this for no other enemy besides Limstella.

The endgame Morphs.

Furthermore, despite apparently being second in ability to known other than the Four Fangs (as stated in Chapter 20), Legault doesn't know anything about the location of the Black Fang's base. Convenient.

Legault also reveals in C24 that he's been away from the Black Fang for a while so he's not sure about current members, and we can assume also this includes fortress locations. This can further be supported by the fact that Nergal and the Morphs only appeared when Brendan married Sonia a year ago (aka during Lyn's tale).

Why not Jaffar? Why not Ursula? Why not Sonia?

Jaffar's going to kill Zephiel, Ursula's going to check on Jaffar, and Sonia's going to kill Brendan.

Hector says this last line to Jaffar after the battle. I don't know why. Hector at this point in time has no idea that Jaffar had killed Leila.

It can be assumed that Hector guesses that Jaffar killed Leila when Jaffar says "don't you know how many of your friends I've killed?"

Also, according to Nino, the Black Fang has two bases: The snow fortress and the water temple. Legault knew of neither of them, apparently. Then how the hell was he even a Black Fang member?

Once again, Legault also mentions that he's been away from the fang for a while, and Nino's been by Sonia's side. Hence why Nino knows and Legault doesn't.

Of course I may have just fucked myself over because Nino calls Legault "Uncle Legault" in their supports, and so that means Legault's been with the Black Fang long enough to know Nino yet he's also been away for a long time. //lolwut

[Anouleth]

To use the example given by TVTropes, as far as FE7's story is concerned, you could substitute the Mona Lisa either for the item Pent is searching for or for the Fire Emblem. It'd be fucking weird if you did, but it really wouldn't change anything. To use the only the categories you and TVTropes used, Pent's item only matters because he wants it, and the Fire Emblem only matters because it was stolen. It doesn't matter at all what the actual item is or does, just that is's special.

But it wouldn't make sense. The Fire Emblem matters because the Fire Emblem is used in the inheritance ceremony. You could not use the Mona Lisa in the inheritance ceremony, any more than you could use the Mona Lisa to defeat the Demon King or to release a dark god of chaos. I guess the desert item is a macguffin, but since it's only brought up once, it's a very minor one.

[1st Mate Bob]

But it wouldn't make sense. The Fire Emblem matters because the Fire Emblem is used in the inheritance ceremony. You could not use the Mona Lisa in the inheritance ceremony, any more than you could use the Mona Lisa to defeat the Demon King or to release a dark god of chaos. I guess the desert item is a macguffin, but since it's only brought up once, it's a very minor one.

From dictionary.com:

McGuffin or MacGuffin (məˈɡʌfɪn)

— n

an object or event in a book or a film that serves as the impetus for the plot

This definition makes the Fire Emblem in every game it's present in a MacGuffin, does it not?

[bottlegnomes]

From dictionary.com:

This definition makes the Fire Emblem in every game it's present in a MacGuffin, does it not?

Yeah, and going by that definition pretty much every story ever made has a MacGuffin, so I'd hardly count it as a flaw. TVtropes even says there's nothing wrong with a trope as long as it is done well.

As for Legault. He even says his reputation isn't exactly earned because he mostly killed people in their sleep, so he's more feared than he should be.

Matthew: Really? The Black Fang seems filled with some powerful fellows. And you? You don’t look like much.

Legault: Yeah, but you know... People have to sleep sometime. But then you know all about work like that, don’t you?

It's not implicit, but it's not exactly hard to get with a little effort.

About Jaffar's opportunity, he's not top dog in the Black Fang. Lloyd and Linus are above him -- he doesn't know that one's dead and the other has disappeared, and even Ursula may be. Killing the prince would definitely put him as top dog. As for why he didn't kill Zephiel he heard Nino talking about how Zephiel's just like her, and he obviously has a soft spot for her, so he doesn't want to do something that would hurt her. My guess is his threat was more a test. If she actually went through with killing the prince she wasn't as sweet and innocent as he thought and he would have just killed her like he was ordered, but since she didn't he knew she was really that sweet and innocent and couldn't bring himself to do it.

Then there's Beyard. Ninian and Nils are two defenseless children. It really doesn't take much to capture two children. Also, there's the fact that there's gameplay/plot separation. How do we know Beyard isn't one of the stronger fang members? Uhai was supposed to be one of the stronger members but was given rather low stats because of his place in the game. Same goes for Eubans and Eagler and a number of other bosses.

And, finally Hector's sociopathy. Fire Emblem is set in a more or less medieval time. You're simply falling prey to what most people do. Placing our morals on things that happen in other times. In medieval times life was not nearly as valued. A noble would not hesitate to kill a commoner that was keeping him from helping an ally that was in danger. Serra's both a woman, yes I'm getting somewhat stereotypical, and a member of the clergy, so she would obviously be much more opposed to violence than a man trained to fight. In fact, Oswin's reaction is rather out of character for a famed knight.

As for the rest, I'm feeling lazy but I might cover them later.

[Aethereal]

From dictionary.com:

This definition makes the Fire Emblem in every game it's present in a MacGuffin, does it not?

How is it negative for the game's namesake to be a motivating factor to the story? By that definition, the Fire Emblem is a MacGuffin. By that definition, it can't be considered a negative, however. It serves a purpose.

The TV tropes definition, which looks to have more background on the definition, implies that it is a motivating factor for the sake of being a motivating factor, with no practical purpose to the story. That's a negative tool to implement, it's lazy and doesn't add anything to the story except unrealistic suspense/drama, but that's also not what the Fire Emblem is.

As far as the artifact Pent's looking for, I always assumed it was the Heaven Seal Athos trusts Hawkeye with, but I suppose we don't have any proof to that. And as was said earlier, not knowing doesn't seem to matter much, does it? It's one thing if we spend 10 chapters searching for the Fire Emblem and it doesn't hold any significant meaning, (Not the case) as opposed to 3 characters being in a place known for having hidden artifacts for a single chapter.

[Othin]

Ursula is loyal to Sonia, so it could be possible that Sonia gave Ursula orders and had one of her subordinates do this job.

But it doesn't make any sense for Sonia to allow that to happen when she especially knows that capturing the twins is the most important objective.

Kishnua can't fight, of course he could just seal Nergal's magic, but Nergal probably has some form of control over the Morphs.

There are Morphs loyal to Kishuna.

Ursula only helps because she doesn't want to "give glory to that newcomer, Vaida". She just wants to see Eliwood and co. take out Vaida.

Which is direct betrayal of the Black Fang, which Ursula seems otherwise so loyal to.

Just following the archetype of possibly-homosexual-idiotic-bandits that FE6 set with Maggie and Rose.

Which changes what?

A great example of why Lyn can be removed from the story and still it is almost the same.

In other words, a great example of a major flaw with the game's story.

They were ordered a few chapters back to attack Eliwood and co.

They weren't doing so at the time. As has been quoted many times before:

Lloyd: Can it really be them? I thought they were in Nabata!

The endgame Morphs.

In other words, still no one else for the rest of the game.

Legault also reveals in C24 that he's been away from the Black Fang for a while so he's not sure about current members, and we can assume also this includes fortress locations. This can further be supported by the fact that Nergal and the Morphs only appeared when Brendan married Sonia a year ago (aka during Lyn's tale).

Legault should at least be familiar with old fortress locations, which would logically be a place to start, and I don't believe it's even stated that those are new fortress locations. Also, do you have any quotes to indicate that he was "away" from the Black Fang for a while? I don't remember reading anything like that.

Besides, as you said, you debunk your own points regarding Legault thoroughly later.

It can be assumed that Hector guesses that Jaffar killed Leila when Jaffar says "don't you know how many of your friends I've killed?"

Jaffar did not know that Leila was an Ostian spy, and it's not clear if he even knew that Hector was from Ostia, so there would be no reason for him to assume a connection between Leila and Hector, making his line odd in the first place. Hector's response, meanwhile, is simply conclusion jumping.

Once again, Legault also mentions that he's been away from the fang for a while, and Nino's been by Sonia's side. Hence why Nino knows and Legault doesn't.

Of course I may have just fucked myself over because Nino calls Legault "Uncle Legault" in their supports, and so that means Legault's been with the Black Fang long enough to know Nino yet he's also been away for a long time. //lolwut

Yep.

But it wouldn't make sense. The Fire Emblem matters because the Fire Emblem is used in the inheritance ceremony. You could not use the Mona Lisa in the inheritance ceremony, any more than you could use the Mona Lisa to defeat the Demon King or to release a dark god of chaos. I guess the desert item is a macguffin, but since it's only brought up once, it's a very minor one.

Anything of sufficient value to the royal family could conceivably be used in the inheritance ceremony, a criteria the Mona Lisa could certainly fulfill. The Fire Emblem was likely chosen for the inheritance ceremony because of its importance in acting as a key to unlock the Sword of Seals, but within FE7's story, anything else could be substituted for it.

Indeed, the desert item is of minor importance. Like many other things, it was only added to the analysis because it was a minor point Banzai and I stumbled upon and felt was worth mentioning. And yet you and others insist on making a huge argument out of these minor points while ignoring the big ones. If you don't like this analysis and want to discredit its conclusions, spend your time giving good, ingame evidence against the points that matter. Perhaps you can uncover something we did not.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Othin

[General Banzai]

Oh crap what are we arguing about now?

I do believe the only point in the analysis where I actually use the term "macguffin" is to describe the thing in the desert Pent is searching for. It's not explained why he wants it or even what it is (beyond the phrase "magical artifact"), but they use the fact that he wants it as an excuse to place him in the middle of the desert.

Anyways Othin and I went over the script to FESS last night. We pretty much poured over it, and we found some interesting plotholes and also some interesting answers to things we thought were plotholes. Luckily for us, Serenes has the complete script of FESS on the site (while we were missing the last few chapters of FE7), so hopefully this analysis will be much more thorough than the one I posted in this thread.

[Original Alear]

This definition makes the Fire Emblem in every game it's present in a MacGuffin, does it not?

Yeah, but it's a pretty weak definition IMO. If that was the case, then any prop in any movie is a macguffin. Two men struggling for a gun in the film - suddenly the gun is the macguffin, because it drove the plot! You get the idea. Generally, within the context of Macguffins we are talking about a CENTRAL item which seems to have no purpose other than being sought.

That being said, I agree the Fire Emblem is often a Macguffin. I'm not sure if it is in say FE4 though, where it is present if unmentioned as Alvis's family crest.

There are Morphs loyal to Kishuna.

Loyalty may be an odd word for it. Just saying. It would seem that Kishuna has some sort of power for them, potentially.

In other words, a great example of a major flaw with the game's story.

Why? There can be NO supplemental characters? Moreover, even if the plot changes, the character dynamics between the three main characters would have to be redone to quite an absurd degree, as Lyn serves as a both a rival and a potential love interest for both characters.

Anything of sufficient value to the royal family could conceivably be used in the inheritance ceremony, a criteria the Mona Lisa could certainly fulfill. The Fire Emblem was likely chosen for the inheritance ceremony because of its importance in acting as a key to unlock the Sword of Seals, but within FE7's story, anything else could be substituted for it.

The Fire Emblem was likely chosen by the royal family around the time of Hartmut. The rest is just following tradition - since the country's history is founded upon Hardain's legacy, an item tied to his legacy makes good sense. Why make it the emblem and not the sword? That way, if anyone gets the emblem, they still must raid the royal vault. This is the advantage of the diffusion of power. However, if the Royal Family lost the Fire Emblem, it would be revealed that much of their other cultural trappings were merely 'the emperor's new clothes' and the actual exploitation of the Bern people, if it can be called that accurately.

[Florete]

Indeed, the desert item is of minor importance. Like many other things, it was only added to the analysis because it was a minor point Banzai and I stumbled upon and felt was worth mentioning. And yet you and others insist on making a huge argument out of these minor points while ignoring the big ones. If you don't like this analysis and want to discredit its conclusions, spend your time giving good, ingame evidence against the points that matter. Perhaps you can uncover something we did not.

The points were made. If people disagree with them, they'll mention it. Deal with it, regardless of how 'minor' they may be. It's not like the topic is filled only with discussions on minor points.

To add, if the minor points 'don't matter,' why were they included in the first place? Clearly someone thought it was important enough to include them but apparently not important enough to have them mentioned again, which is pretty bad form when asking for a discussion.

[Othin]

Yeah, but it's a pretty weak definition IMO. If that was the case, then any prop in any movie is a macguffin. Two men struggling for a gun in the film - suddenly the gun is the macguffin, because it drove the plot! You get the idea. Generally, within the context of Macguffins we are talking about a CENTRAL item which seems to have no purpose other than being sought.

That being said, I agree the Fire Emblem is often a Macguffin. I'm not sure if it is in say FE4 though, where it is present if unmentioned as Alvis's family crest.

No one in FE4 cares about the Fire Emblem. I think it's mentioned in exactly one line of dialogue in the Epilogue and has had absolutely no impact on anything beforehand. It's not relevant enough to be anywhere close to a macguffin.

As for the rest of the series... I don't think their respective Fire Emblems are even present in FE2/5, and in FE1/3/6, obtaining the Fire Emblem isn't an issue; you just use it at the end of FE3/6 and don't do anything with it in FE1. In FE8, Lyon spends most of the game searching for the Sacred Stones, but they actually have a point and aren't interchangeable. You also spend a chapter retrieving the one in Renais, but it's not like the chapter wouldn't plausibly have happened even without it. You spend more chapters protecting the other ones, but again, there's more to both the missions and the Sacred Stones. Certainly, obtaining Grado's stone is not an issue for anyone within the time of the story, and that's technically the only Fire Emblem in Magvel.

FE9/10 are much the same story: Obtaining Lehran's Medallion is generally not an issue, and the consequences of what it actually does are far more significant. So FE7 is the only game where it's truly treated as a macguffin.

Loyalty may be an odd word for it. Just saying. It would seem that Kishuna has some sort of power for them, potentially.

Morph allies. Satisfied?

I've lost track of exactly what this particular point is meant to show, but while we're talking about Kishuna, it's also worth noting that when Kishuna appears, sealing Aion's magic, Aion does not treat Kishuna as an enemy - rather than telling his soldiers to kill or drive away Kishuna, Aion simply lets him sit there. In other words, Kishuna should logically still have some affiliation with the Black Fang, which just makes his actions such as screwing up Aion's entire army even more confusing.

Why? There can be NO supplemental characters? Moreover, even if the plot changes, the character dynamics between the three main characters would have to be redone to quite an absurd degree, as Lyn serves as a both a rival and a potential love interest for both characters.

Lyn existing is not a problem. Lyn taking over large parts of the story and being only one of three characters to ever really appear in normal conversations after joining and past the beginning of the game, when she doesn't even matter at all, is a problem.

The Fire Emblem was likely chosen by the royal family around the time of Hartmut. The rest is just following tradition - since the country's history is founded upon Hardain's legacy, an item tied to his legacy makes good sense. Why make it the emblem and not the sword? That way, if anyone gets the emblem, they still must raid the royal vault. This is the advantage of the diffusion of power. However, if the Royal Family lost the Fire Emblem, it would be revealed that much of their other cultural trappings were merely 'the emperor's new clothes' and the actual exploitation of the Bern people, if it can be called that accurately.

That's all nice, and it's also all irrelevant.

If Bern's royal family had seen the Mona Lisa as an item of such amazing value or whatever that at some time in history, they made it an integral part of their traditions to have it present at important ceremonies such as the coming-of-age ceremony, and therefore it was stolen instead of the Fire Emblem, FE7's story would not otherwise have had to be changed in the slightest. That is my assertion. Do you have any evidence - preferably quotes from the game - to show a problem with this assertion? Such evidence is the only thing that could indicate the Fire Emblem to not be a macguffin in FE7, and I do not believe such evidence exists. Certainly, what you have posted is no such evidence.

[RNG Princess]

FE7 throws too many things around or leaves some things unclear imo, the plot seems unorganized in some areas. I never understood why Raven didn't kill Hector, when I first played I expected a route split or a betrayal (like Orson in FE8) but he just stays there. Kishuna was another character just thrown out there for no reason, and I felt he could of been involved more in the plot. Lyn and Hector were kind of filler-ish too, but its a good thing overall because they expand the game (HM, LM). Good thing FE7 makes up for the story in gameplay and at least it has a story, and I see nothing wrong with Fire Emblem being less mature themed than FE4/5 as long as it has a decent plot I see no issue. Fire Emblem is better off without incestous "mature themes" anyways, at least here in America I'm sure it would scare people off/bad move.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Aethereal]

So in Chapter 23 Eliwood and friends travel halfway across the world without a single Black Fang getting in their way, despite the fact that in Chapter 22 Sonia ordered the Four Fangs themselves to find and kill Eliwood. So maybe the Black Fang just didn't know where Eliwood was when he went to Nabata, right? Wrong. Here's a line from Chapter 24:

Lloyd: …Can it really be them? I thought they were in Nabata!

So… the Black Fang knows Eliwood is in Nabata, and the Four Fangs are given the order to kill Eliwood. Yet they do nothing. Jaffar is even off doing some other mission, as seen in Chapter 24. And Lloyd and Linus are just standing around in the same village in Chapter 24, also. The next time you see Ursula she even HELPS your team. So yeah, the Four Fangs aren't too good at following orders. Bummer.

In Chapter 24 you happen to bumble into the same village where Lloyd, Linus, and Jaffar are all present. You then randomly fight them.

Here's the issues with these points, in regards to Lloyd and Linus' role, and why it is I don't believe this is a plothole. It's been brought up before, but the first is that it's entirely possible the Black Fang doesn't have a large hold over Nabata. It's a desert. The only real civilization there is Arcadia, which is protected by Athos. Aside from them, the only people ever in Nabata are bandits, or in Pent/Louise/Athos' case, people looking for artifacts, which you can kinda insinuate the bandits in 23 are looking for as well. It's apparently common knowledge that there are things hidden in the sand after all.

Additionally, how would one of the Four Fangs, who are at the snow base base when they are ordered to kill Eliwood and co, would have to travel roughly twice as far to reach Nabata as Eliwood. When you hear your target is half way across the continent, and are heading to the opposite corner, it seems reasonable to me to wait for them to return, or at least form a plan. It would've been next to impossible for them to catch up quickly, at least to have caught them by Chapter 23, when Eliwood and co. are just then reaching the desert. Nergal is also recovering at this point, so teleporting a group large enough to defeat Eliwood's across the continent seems counterproductive, if not impossible for him at the moment.

Also, the second quote bothers me a bit. Lloyd and Linus are supposed to kill Eliwood, why is it random to fight them? Like, if the person you were supposed to kill and you ran into each other, wouldn't YOU fight them? It's also not entirely random-you're near Bern's capital, and that is where the Black Fang is located. It would only make sense to eventually run into them.

[General Banzai]

To the people saying that Kishuna is fine because supplemental characters are a-okay: The point of a supplemental character is to supplement the plot. Kishuna does not do that. Kishuna does not anything to the plot, does not tie in to it in any way. Subplots are fine, but the point of a subplot is to enhance understanding of the main plot. Bad storytelling is throwing around subplots which have no relevance at all to the main plot.

As for Nabata. Just because the Black Fang doesn't have a large hold over Nabata doesn't prevent them from traveling there. Plus if the only thing in Nabata is Athos like you said then Nergal ought to know why they're going there and INCREASE his efforts to stop Eliwood from friends. Nergal simply ignores you and lets you do as-you-will at the moments where it'd be most in his interest to stop you: First here when you rendezvous with Athos, and later when you go traipsing around the world in search of Durandal and Armads.

As for the randomly fighting bit, I suppose that's an error. It's not random that you fight them, but that all three just happen to be in the village you go to, with no knowledge at all that you're going to be there. Jaffar is even working independently of Linus and Lloyd and still winds up in the same spot. It'd be like if in FESS Chapter 2 when you visit the village with Selena in it, you then go to the next village over and find Caellach walking around for completely different reasons. It doesn't make much sense. Compound to the fact that Murdock is in the exact same village for also completely different (and completely unexplained) reasons. So Linus and Lloyd, Jaffar, and Murdock, are all in this village doing their own thing not knowing that you'll be there and sucks for you, most unlucky day in the history of ever, you walk right into them. That's where the problem stems from.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Which is direct betrayal of the Black Fang, which Ursula seems otherwise so loyal to.

Vaida was only given power by Nergal, she's never been part of the Black Fang. Sonia basically doesn't kill her when she fails because she's one of Bern's knights and not a member of the Fang. She even scoffs at Hector when he calls her a dog of Nergal's and states she serves the crown.

[bottlegnomes]

To the people saying that Kishuna is fine because supplemental characters are a-okay: The point of a supplemental character is to supplement the plot. Kishuna does not do that. Kishuna does not anything to the plot, does not tie in to it in any way. Subplots are fine, but the point of a subplot is to enhance understanding of the main plot. Bad storytelling is throwing around subplots which have no relevance at all to the main plot.

It add something to the story in that it gives some backstory to Nergal. It explores his messing around with the morphs showing he wasn't always just able to crank out morphs that pass off as human perfectly, like Sonia and Ephidel.

As for Nabata. Just because the Black Fang doesn't have a large hold over Nabata doesn't prevent them from traveling there. Plus if the only thing in Nabata is Athos like you said then Nergal ought to know why they're going there and INCREASE his efforts to stop Eliwood from friends. Nergal simply ignores you and lets you do as-you-will at the moments where it'd be most in his interest to stop you: First here when you rendezvous with Athos, and later when you go traipsing around the world in search of Durandal and Armads.

Nergal is seriously injured at this point and still trying to get his strength back. I hardly doubt he's in a position to stop you from going to Nabata. As for the fang, as others have said, maybe they'd have more trouble getting there than it's worth.

As for the randomly fighting bit, I suppose that's an error. It's not random that you fight them, but that all three just happen to be in the village you go to, with no knowledge at all that you're going to be there. Jaffar is even working independently of Linus and Lloyd and still winds up in the same spot. It'd be like if in FESS Chapter 2 when you visit the village with Selena in it, you then go to the next village over and find Caellach walking around for completely different reasons. It doesn't make much sense. Compound to the fact that Murdock is in the exact same village for also completely different (and completely unexplained) reasons. So Linus and Lloyd, Jaffar, and Murdock, are all in this village doing their own thing not knowing that you'll be there and sucks for you, most unlucky day in the history of ever, you walk right into them. That's where the problem stems from.

As he said, it's close to the Bern capital. I'd say it's not that unlikely that Murdock goes to the village and spends some time there doing what you normally do in a town when he has some time off. Lloyd and Linus travel together a lot so it's hardly unusual that they're there together. Jaffar is probably there because he's seriously injured that took place in the Bern capital and that city is the closest that has fang presence and thus is a safehouse where he can hand over the fire emblem safely. Plus there's the whole reality is stranger than fiction. If this event happened in real life you'd be like, "shit, well that was unlikely," but since it's in a story you're all up in arms because it would never happen in real life. If you're really a writer then you should be well aware of this and, while it an eh choice in storytelling it's far from as bad as you seem to think it is.

Also, since it seems you and Othin missed my last post here it is again:

Yeah, and going by that definition pretty much every story ever made has a MacGuffin, so I'd hardly count it as a flaw. TVtropes even says there's nothing wrong with a trope as long as it is done well.

As for Legault. He even says his reputation isn't exactly earned because he mostly killed people in their sleep, so he's more feared than he should be.

Matthew: Really? The Black Fang seems filled with some powerful fellows. And you? You don’t look like much.

Legault: Yeah, but you know... People have to sleep sometime. But then you know all about work like that, don’t you?

It's not implicit, but it's not exactly hard to get with a little effort.

About Jaffar's opportunity, he's not top dog in the Black Fang. Lloyd and Linus are above him -- he doesn't know that one's dead and the other has disappeared, and even Ursula may be. Killing the prince would definitely put him as top dog. As for why he didn't kill Zephiel he heard Nino talking about how Zephiel's just like her, and he obviously has a soft spot for her, so he doesn't want to do something that would hurt her. My guess is his threat was more a test. If she actually went through with killing the prince she wasn't as sweet and innocent as he thought and he would have just killed her like he was ordered, but since she didn't he knew she was really that sweet and innocent and couldn't bring himself to do it.

Then there's Beyard. Ninian and Nils are two defenseless children. It really doesn't take much to capture two children. Also, there's the fact that there's gameplay/plot separation. How do we know Beyard isn't one of the stronger fang members? Uhai was supposed to be one of the stronger members but was given rather low stats because of his place in the game. Same goes for Eubans and Eagler and a number of other bosses.

And, finally Hector's sociopathy. Fire Emblem is set in a more or less medieval time. You're simply falling prey to what most people do. Placing our morals on things that happen in other times. In medieval times life was not nearly as valued. A noble would not hesitate to kill a commoner that was keeping him from helping an ally that was in danger. Serra's both a woman, yes I'm getting somewhat stereotypical, and a member of the clergy, so she would obviously be much more opposed to violence than a man trained to fight. In fact, Oswin's reaction is rather out of character for a famed knight.

As for the rest, I'm feeling lazy but I might cover them later.

[Original Alear]

FE9/10 are much the same story: Obtaining Lehran's Medallion is generally not an issue, and the consequences of what it actually does are far more significant. So FE7 is the only game where it's truly treated as a macguffin.

Lehran's medallion is a macguffin in that it has a purpose the characters don't understand as they pursue it, that is to say they think it's sort of the essence of evil whereas it's really a balancing force to the world that needs to be unleashed (put simplistically). Moreover, they DO strive to get it back from Ashnard when it is stolen, there is definitely a private to-do over it even when its just an object of sentimental value, Mist wants it back.

I've lost track of exactly what this particular point is meant to show, but while we're talking about Kishuna, it's also worth noting that when Kishuna appears, sealing Aion's magic, Aion does not treat Kishuna as an enemy - rather than telling his soldiers to kill or drive away Kishuna, Aion simply lets him sit there. In other words, Kishuna should logically still have some affiliation with the Black Fang, which just makes his actions such as screwing up Aion's entire army even more confusing.

Consider the guards around Kishuna. They are quite strong and well armed. Moreover Aion himself is helpless to participate in the battle. In other words, Aion is afraid to challenge Kishuna, thus they are treated as though they were on the same force. I do not really think this justification was intentional but it is interesting all the same.

Lyn existing is not a problem. Lyn taking over large parts of the story and being only one of three characters to ever really appear in normal conversations after joining and past the beginning of the game, when she doesn't even matter at all, is a problem.

Really? I disagree. I think that it's ok for a character to exist for the sake of character development. Moreover, players new to the series probably developed an attachment to Lyn as a character, if they liked her, which means that it makes sense to involve her in the plot. NOTE that her position is subordinated in the ending entirely - unless she marries one of the two male lords, she's back home to the plains and Caelin is taken over by another marquess. (Ostia, right?) I find this an interesting gender commentary which is worthy of attention.

If Bern's royal family had seen the Mona Lisa as an item of such amazing value or whatever that at some time in history, they made it an integral part of their traditions to have it present at important ceremonies such as the coming-of-age ceremony, and therefore it was stolen instead of the Fire Emblem, FE7's story would not otherwise have had to be changed in the slightest. That is my assertion. Do you have any evidence - preferably quotes from the game - to show a problem with this assertion? Such evidence is the only thing that could indicate the Fire Emblem to not be a macguffin in FE7, and I do not believe such evidence exists. Certainly, what you have posted is no such evidence.

The entire story of FE7 stems from FE6's story, and in both games the countries were founded on the ashes of an older war between humans and dragons. Naturally, objects related to the founding of these countries would be vital to the country's history. I cannot discount that some sort of replacement for the Fire Emblem could be equally valuable, but within the larger picture it would make the story more convoluted. This is NOT a bad thing generally, but within the context of Fire Emblem, it may be stretching our attention away from a core aspect of the game's plot, the war between dragons and humans.

I really feel you are trolling at this point by refusing not to take this particular logical step yourself, but I admit I have stretched the bounds of logic in other places if not here and give you the benefit of the doubt I would ask of you in a similar situation.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Loki Laufeyjarson

[-Cynthia-]

Female Lords tend to get overshadowed by their male counterparts.

FE6: Lilina isn't even a Lord and Guinevere (the only other real candidate) isn't playable except in Trial Maps.

FE7: Lyn is made fairly irrelevant as mentioned.

FE8: Eirika is overshadowed by Ephraim as soon as he comes on the scene if Ephraim route is chosen (Eirika's role for the rest of the game is basically little sister that must be protected). Eirika route does remedy this though.

FE9: Elincia's not a real Lord and she's not playable until late in the game anyway. Unlike FE8 they didn't even try to pretend a little sister could be the main character

FE10: Micaiah plays second fiddle to Ike almost immediately after he comes on the scene, the epilogue is almost entirely about "the great hero Ike" (apparently hosting the goddess who actually let him land the shot counts for nothing in the history books.) I guess Elincia is the "main Lord" in her part...the shortest part in the game.

tl;dr FE likes making men the most important characters just like most video games (and movies and other forms of media)

Edited July 27, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[General Spoon]

Female Lords tend to get overshadowed by their male counterparts.

FE2 does a pretty good job of not doing that. Arum and Cellica operate independently of eachother for almost all of the game.

Arum does end up coming to Cellica's rescue on the last map, but Cellica had already saved Arum from Dracozombies earlier, so they're about even in that regard.

[Paperblade]

Requesting a mod lock this topic because OP is spoiling my LP

Edited July 27, 2011 by Paperkitty

[-Cynthia-]

FE2 does a pretty good job of not doing that. Arum and Cellica operate independently of eachother for almost all of the game.

Arum does end up coming to Cellica's rescue on the last map, but Cellica had already saved Arum from Dracozombies earlier, so they're about even in that regard.

I was thinking about mentioning FE2, but I was unsure of the game script so I didn't put it in (the rest of the pre-6 games don't have female lords anyway so eh).

Edited July 27, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[bottlegnomes]

Requesting a mod lock this topic because OP is spoiling my LP

BTW, when are you going to update that? It makes me sad :(

As for the rest. Yeah, women in FE do tend to get marginalized.

[Original Alear]

tl;dr FE likes making men the most important characters just like most video games (and movies and other forms of media)

Agreed, but I meant that more could be said regarding Lyn particularly, AKA how despite the relative gender diversity of the cast, she loses her position as royalty pretty much no matter what she does. She can't even make it into the ending of the game! The ending of the game is a total sausagefest!!! Hector and Eliwood are like "let's have sex." Totally.

Not that it has to be said.

The question is whether one can easily buy out of the stereotype that men are "rational and stoic" and women are "irrational and nurturing" easily when the indoctrination is reinforced by roles during childbirth and culture and so forth. Of course, I agree the media should do a better job of offering the opposite viewpoint for those who seek it.

Edited July 27, 2011 by Loki Laufeyjarson

[-Cynthia-]

Agreed, but I meant that more could be said regarding Lyn particularly, AKA how despite the relative gender diversity of the cast, she loses her position as royalty pretty much no matter what she does. She can't even make it into the ending of the game! The ending of the game is a total sausagefest!!! Hector and Eliwood are like "let's have sex." Totally.

I didn't really mind Lyn leaving Caelin, since it was pretty clear even in Lyn's tale that she missed Sacae and was only really staying for Hausen's sake (I guess this changes to Eliwood/Hector's sake depending on ending).

It's somewhat hinted that Elibe doesn't like female marquesses, because Eliwood succeeds Elbert after FE7...despite Eleanora seeming the more obvious candidate. Elibian Nights makes this reasoning more obvious, but I suppose fan hacks shouldn't have to explain such things.

lol @ Eliwood x Hector

The question is whether one can easily buy out of the stereotype that men are "rational and stoic" and women are "irrational and nurturing" easily when the indoctrination is reinforced by roles during childbirth and culture and so forth. Of course, I agree the media should do a better job of offering the opposite viewpoint for those who seek it.

There actually are more rational and stoic female characters in FE (Marisa comes to mind), but they tend not to be in the main roles. FE10 is interesting in that the lords actually have to choose between the "rational" and "emotional" decisions (like Elincia with Lucia). Usually, FE Lords don't have to make many tough choices.