QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[Original Alear]

There actually are more rational and stoic female characters in FE (Marisa comes to mind), but they tend not to be in the main roles. FE10 is interesting in that the lords actually have to choose between the "rational" and "emotional" decisions (like Elincia with Lucia). Usually, FE Lords don't have to make many tough choices.

True......I think it has something to do with the "diffusion of lordship" within the game. Since there's no one lord making all the choices. It is interesting how the main lord in FE10 tends to be criticized by fans as making the worst choices in terms of what was going on at the time, but there's still events which pull her out of the fire and even vindicate her by some standards.

A lot of the time in FE10, characters seem to be choosing nations over personal matters, with Ike, the sort of non-factional character from FE9, taking care of patching up the differences for the most part. I guess that's why he gets the big applause at the end.

[General Spoon]

It's somewhat hinted that Elibe doesn't like female marquesses, because Eliwood succeeds Elbert after FE7...despite Eleanora seeming the more obvious candidate.

Not just Elibe; pretty much any piece of fantasy.

There actually are more rational and stoic female characters in FE (Marisa comes to mind), but they tend not to be in the main roles. FE10 is interesting in that the lords actually have to choose between the "rational" and "emotional" decisions (like Elincia with Lucia). Usually, FE Lords don't have to make many tough choices.

Marisa is not a good example, imo. She is established pretty clearly as unable to do anything well except for fighting (her ending with Gerik states this explicitly). IIRC, her support conversations imply that she is socially awkward as well.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Cher Ami

[General Banzai]

Really? I disagree. I think that it's ok for a character to exist for the sake of character development.

Sigh...

Anyways this thread has seemed to take off on its own and lead to debates independent of me, so I'll leave it at that. Working on FESS analysis atm anyways

[Celice]

Hopefully it's as interesting as this one. I don't remember how much story content may have been changed in translation, but I'm sure it wasn't much.

[General Banzai]

Hopefully it's as interesting as this one. I don't remember how much story content may have been changed in translation, but I'm sure it wasn't much.

Ephraim:

...Again with your criticism! Tell me, Eirika. What say you to dressing like me and becoming king in my stead? You're so skinny, I doubt anyone would notice you're not really a man.

I get the distinct impression that instead of "skinny" the original Japanese said something to the extent of "flat".

[Anouleth]

From dictionary.com:

This definition makes the Fire Emblem in every game it's present in a MacGuffin, does it not?

Or you could use the definition from Alfred Hitchcock who coined the term in the first place.

"In TV interviews, Hitchcock defined a MacGuffin as the object around which the plot revolves, but, as to what that object specifically is, he declared, "the audience don't care"."

<3 hitchcock <3

[bottlegnomes]

Ephraim:

...Again with your criticism! Tell me, Eirika. What say you to dressing like me and becoming king in my stead? You're so skinny, I doubt anyone would notice you're not really a man.

I get the distinct impression that instead of "skinny" the original Japanese said something to the extent of "flat".

Nevermind, misread flat as fat.

Edited July 28, 2011 by bottlegnomes

[Celice]

There was also bits of Yuan gabbing at Amelia's butt, or something like that. But nothing really outstanding.

[Paper Jam]

I don't see where in the story that it is ever implied that Petrine is powerful enough to defeat the entire cat army by herself.

She is a powerful warrior who wields a lance imbued with powerful fire magic (and Soren specifically says so in chapter 7), and cats are vulnerable to fire magic.

[bottlegnomes]

She is a powerful warrior who wields a lance imbued with powerful fire magic (and Soren specifically says so in chapter 7), and cats are vulnerable to fire magic.

Forgot about that. Well, I guess I should address that, well the response to my initial comment. Like Paper Jam said, she's got a flame lance, plus since you seem to be convinced that stats represent story, Ranulf is by far the most powerful cat that appears in the game at base level. Petrine can take him in a one on one fight. Say all the rest are as powerful as Lethe, which would be a stretch because she's a commander, Petrine would have no trouble taking them out, taking 2 damage and doubling for 52 damage.

As for Greil, she'd have trouble against him, but she'd probably come out on top, though it would be close.

So Ranulf and Greil would pose some threat but the rest would be absolute jokes for her, which is what my original statement said.

[-Cynthia-]

Forgot about that. Well, I guess I should address that, well the response to my initial comment. Like Paper Jam said, she's got a flame lance, plus since you seem to be convinced that stats represent story, Ranulf is by far the most powerful cat that appears in the game at base level. Petrine can take him in a one on one fight. Say all the rest are as powerful as Lethe, which would be a stretch because she's a commander, Petrine would have no trouble taking them out, taking 2 damage and doubling for 52 damage.

As for Greil, she'd have trouble against him, but she'd probably come out on top, though it would be close.

So Ranulf and Greil would pose some threat but the rest would be absolute jokes for her, which is what my original statement said.

She just lost to Greil in a duel actually, but considering she has leagues of soldiers at her side I like her chances (the soldiers being that scared of laguz is also odd, given such strong anti-laguz sentiment and the willingness of soldiers to fight laguz in later chapters). Somewhat irrelevant because the BK brings the situation to a halt (and his reasons for doing so are obvious).

[bottlegnomes]

She just lost to Greil in a duel actually, but considering she has leagues of soldiers at her side I like her chances (the soldiers being that scared of laguz is also odd, given such strong anti-laguz sentiment and the willingness of soldiers to fight laguz in later chapters). Somewhat irrelevant because the BK brings the situation to a halt (and his reasons for doing so are obvious).

I said I was going by stats. As for the actual story, yeah Greil did beat her, and Ranulf would probably have been able to beat her too if we go by story strength.

[General Banzai]

She doesn't have tons of soldiers by her side. They all wimp out and run away when the cats come, remember?

And the Flame Lance only has so many uses. Not to mention that even if she managed to take a lot of cats with her, they'd bring her down eventually.

Anyways the entire point is irrelevant because she actually does decide to go down fighting instead of returning to Ashnard to be execution for failure. The only reason she leaves is because Burger King shows up and orders her to.

[bottlegnomes]

She doesn't have tons of soldiers by her side. They all wimp out and run away when the cats come, remember?

And the Flame Lance only has so many uses. Not to mention that even if she managed to take a lot of cats with her, they'd bring her down eventually.

Anyways the entire point is irrelevant because she actually does decide to go down fighting instead of returning to Ashnard to be execution for failure. The only reason she leaves is because Burger King shows up and orders her to.

Like I said, 2 damage a hit from Lethe. Most cats are probably weaker. Anyway, my point wasn't that Petrine could take all of them with her. Here's my original statement:

And she runs away from an army of cats that she could have probably killed herself. In fact, two enemies in that entire scenario are even slightly a threat to her, Ranulf and Greil, and even they probably couldn't have taken her by themselves. Then the Black Knight shows up and instead of killing everyone there decides to just leave and tell Petrine to retreat.

I was showing how if you take something at the bare minimum pretty much every FE has a similar scenario. Then my expanding on that was to show how stats don't reflect the story. You go on this whole thing about how Beyard, Uhai, and Aion are just fang peons because they have bad stats and are fought that early in the story but you have no way of knowing how strong they actually were and if IS just gave them those stats so the game would be beatable.

Also, since you haven't responded to my posts that actually have to do with FE7, what you expressly said you wanted, as opposed to just referring to other games, which you have responded to despite saying you didn't want people to do just that, I'm assuming you accept them?

[Aethereal]

I'll just say, unrealistic things happen with the stats and levels of the games. Trying to analyze enemies as too weak because of their level or stats, and therefore not worth sending on those very important missions (Such as capturing Nils and Ninian) is unrealistic. Unless we're expecting the games we play to be in the obscurity of the world in which we take place, or for there to be very little difference between late game units and early game units, sometimes the unit's levels and stats will most likely not represent their standing in the lore and/or plot.

Edit: Bottle beat me to it

Edited July 28, 2011 by Aethereal

[General Banzai]

Also, since you haven't responded to my posts that actually have to do with FE7, what you expressly said you wanted, as opposed to just referring to other games, which you have responded to despite saying you didn't want people to do just that, I'm assuming you accept them?

I probably haven't even read them. I'm only stopping by this thread occasionally and commenting on whatever anyone's arguing about at that moment. I'm working on the FESS analysis, you see, so I'll let you guys argue amongst yourselves for the time being.

[Bryan]

I very much enjoyed this thread, it stated many of the plot holes that I found myself. I figured I must have just missed something, like many other people. That's not really a good feeling. :/

I hate when people say that this plot is sooooo much better than FE8's. Lyon >>>>> Nergal. I love how Lyon is portrayed as a good guy, and even at the end of the story, you still want to save him. I felt nothing of the sort for Nergal. Lyon has to be one of my favorite villans, since you feel sorry for him.

[I.M. Gei]

FE8's plot>FE7's plot just because of Lyon? I'm not sure I follow your logic there...

[Paper Jam]

Lyon is much more of an anti-villain than Nergal, or at least the game makes that much clearer from the beginning; from the first time you meet him, it's clear that all he wants is what's best for Grado.

Nergal may have a similar excuse, as his reason for starting down the dark path was that he wanted to save his wife and kids, but by the time you figure that out (in Hector's tale), you've already beaten the game on Eliwood's tale.

In short, the first impression of Lyon compares favorably to the first impression of Nergal.

What really bugs me about Nergal, personally, is that he apparently started studying dark magic before or during the Scouring, as Nils and Ninian were born before the Scouring. However, Athos said that he met Nergal some five hundred years AFTER the Scouring, and Nergal was still a fairly good guy then. How did Nergal survive the five hundred years between leaving Nils and Ninian on Valor and meeting Athos?

Sure, he's not the only Scouring-era mage to have prolonged his life somehow, but Athos and Bramimond were legendary heroes, and Nergal wasn't.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Paper Jam

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah they kind of hid Nergal's backstory in a very difficult to reach gaiden after you've already beaten the game essentially, whereas you get Lyon's story wither way.

[Othin]

FE8's plot>FE7's plot just because of Lyon? I'm not sure I follow your logic there...

Lyon + a much more coherent plot.

There's one area of FE8's plot that has a few serious issues, but other than that, even the smallest nitpicks we found almost always seemed to be explained by further analysis. It got to the point where the most interesting thing I could bring up while talking over plans for the analysis was an improperly used verb tense in an obscure support.

On the other hand, every analysis brought out even more of Lyon as a villain. I never thought much of him initially playing the game, but he's easily the most intricate and fascinating FE villain.

[Paper Jam]

That said, it would have made sense for Athos to warp them there... or straight to where they needed to go rather than requiring them to trudge through Bern and risk being discovered and starting a war. Not to mention wasting time and risking getting killed. Another plothole.

Hector says as much at the end of chapter 29: "If that's true, why didn't you just magic us here in the first place?"

To which Athos replied "What would that have proven? You cannot hope to succeed if you cannot trust your own strength. Your own power must drive you. That is the most important thing."

Besides, for the teleportation to Pherae, Athos needed Eliwood to think of an open place in Pherae with which he was familiar. Nobody in Eliwood's party had been to the Shrine of Seals, so they couldn't visualize it or its surroundings the way Eliwood could visualize Pherae.

[CT075]

On the other hand, every analysis brought out even more of Lyon as a villain. I never thought much of him initially playing the game, but he's easily the most intricate and fascinating FE villain.

I could definitely make a case for Alvis over Lyon, but otherwise I agree with you.

And if you want to make a debate about it (which I would not be against), let's not clog this topic with it, maybe?

[bottlegnomes]

I could definitely make a case for Alvis over Lyon, but otherwise I agree with you.

And if you want to make a debate about it (which I would not be against), let's not clog this topic with it, maybe?

I definitely second that. Alvis is probably the most developed villain in the series. I'd also be willing to make a case for Mishiel, though a lot of that would be based off his time in FE3 where he isn't actually a villain, or Trabant over Lyon.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Alvis and Trabant are much more well-written than Lyon is. Especially Alvis. I've been in a very long skype discussion over why Alvis is actually sympathetic in some ways. But as Cam said:

And if you want to make a debate about it (which I would not be against), let's not clog this topic with it, maybe?