QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[Othin]

Hector says as much at the end of chapter 29: "If that's true, why didn't you just magic us here in the first place?"

To which Athos replied "What would that have proven? You cannot hope to succeed if you cannot trust your own strength. Your own power must drive you. That is the most important thing."

Besides, for the teleportation to Pherae, Athos needed Eliwood to think of an open place in Pherae with which he was familiar. Nobody in Eliwood's party had been to the Shrine of Seals, so they couldn't visualize it or its surroundings the way Eliwood could visualize Pherae.

Athos should be familiar with the Shrine of Seals; based on what I remember, he warps there himself.

There does not seem to be anything anywhere in FE7's story to show that proving anything was ever an issue involved with the group's travels in Bern, that not trusting their own power was ever the case, or that either one would have been worth the massive risks involved with traveling through Bern to find something when they didn't even know where it was. I don't even recall a good reason why Athos could not have at least given them information about how to get there.

I could definitely make a case for Alvis over Lyon, but otherwise I agree with you.

And if you want to make a debate about it (which I would not be against), let's not clog this topic with it, maybe?

I wasn't going to press the point, but now that you mention it, I could go for that. But not yet. Most of my views on this subject come from discussions with Banzai; I don't know what extent of our findings regarding Lyon he's putting in his analysis, but I'll hold off on this until he posts it. When that happens, we can make a separate thread and continue this there. Sound good?

[Dark Sage]

I have a suggestion.

You and Banzai should go get a room. Seriously.

[bottlegnomes]

Athos should be familiar with the Shrine of Seals; based on what I remember, he warps there himself.

There does not seem to be anything anywhere in FE7's story to show that proving anything was ever an issue involved with the group's travels in Bern, that not trusting their own power was ever the case, or that either one would have been worth the massive risks involved with traveling through Bern to find something when they didn't even know where it was. I don't even recall a good reason why Athos could not have at least given them information about how to get there.

Athos explicitly says if he warped them there it would prove nothing. He needed to see if they were worth of wielding the legendary weapons. If you don't remember that I'd suggest playing the chapter again and reading the dialogue.

[Bryan]

I have a suggestion.

You and Banzai should go get a room. Seriously.

How is this helpful at all? Comments like this are hardly relevant. Hell, all of these LPs and Drafts drove me away from posting. What did I have to add? Cool, I've done all of that before. Low tier units on Hard mode? Done it twenty times. Another topic is nice every now and then. I don't know why you all have be so annoying that it isn't an LP or a Draft at the top of the forum slot.

Athos explicitly says if he warped them there it would prove nothing. He needed to see if they were worth of wielding the legendary weapons. If you don't remember that I'd suggest playing the chapter again and reading the dialogue.

I don't quite see how traveling is going to make them more worthy. Isn't the real trial inside?

Edited July 29, 2011 by Bryan

[Aethereal]

I don't quite see how traveling is going to make them more worthy. Isn't the real trial inside?

Divine weapons were probably more respected by Athos than any one else. Testing the people he eventually gives Armads, Durandal and Aureola is probably a worthwhile cause. Besides which, traveling wasn't the only thing they had to do in that time at all.

[bottlegnomes]

How is this helpful at all? Comments like this are hardly relevant. Hell, all of these LPs and Drafts drove me away from posting. What did I have to add? Cool, I've done all of that before. Low tier units on Hard mode? Done it twenty times. Another topic is nice every now and then. I don't know why you all have be so annoying that it isn't an LP or a Draft at the top of the forum slot.

I don't think that's why he's saying it.

I don't quite see how traveling is going to make them more worthy. Isn't the real trial inside?

And that changes the fact that Athos explicitly said it was a test how? Plus it's possible to have more than one test. You know, like how you have more than one test in school for a class? Plus what Aethereal said.

[Bryan]

I don't think that's why he's saying it.

And that changes the fact that Athos explicitly said it was a test how? Plus it's possible to have more than one test. You know, like how you have more than one test in school for a class? Plus what Aethereal said.

It's just rude, there have been a couple of posts like that.

I wasn't disagreeing, I was just clairifying a point for myself mainly, I forgot to add that sentance.

[bottlegnomes]

True, but it's the internet, so that kind of stuff is sort of expected.

In that case, sorry I was kind of rude. I misunderstood you. Yeah, they still had to go through a test, but getting there was sort of a preliminary test.

[Dark Sage]

I said that for one simple reason. I've had enough of Othin and General Banzai.

Immature? Yes. Rude? Yes. Normally I wouldn't say that type of thing. But in their case....yeah. They push my buttons.

[Paperblade]

What Sage is trying to say is that while FE7's plot is not very good and we're all aware of that, it's obvious they are not being objective here and have an axe to grind.

[Paper Jam]

There does not seem to be anything anywhere in FE7's story to show that proving anything was ever an issue involved with the group's travels in Bern, that not trusting their own power was ever the case, or that either one would have been worth the massive risks involved with traveling through Bern to find something when they didn't even know where it was. I don't even recall a good reason why Athos could not have at least given them information about how to get there.

Because if Eliwood and his companions hadn't done it all by themselves, they wouldn't have proven themselves worthy to Bramimond, nor convinced him to release the seals on the legendary weapons.

What ultimately convinced Bramimond was the fact that Eliwood and company did travel all that way and fight all those battles without Athos' help.

[eclipse]

Well. . .if Eliwood and Co. had a bunch of Athos help, and suddenly got divine weapons, that would be far more of a plot travesty than the entirety of that OP. It's as if they would've been Chosen by the Writers to be awesome with no work whatsoever.

[Lux Aeterna]

I'm probably really far behind the curve, but I did just remember something...

Kishuna and Renault are implied to have been friends (if you doubt me, I can bring out proof--not definitive, but cumulative). So when you say it's a sub plot that adds nothing to the main story, that's not entirely true. Kishuna served to demonstrate as what Nergal once was--and also to show how why Renault slaughtered all those people.

In other words, it's not a direct effect on the main plot, but it does show how things began. Which was one of the biggest points of FE7 in the first place--to show what happened before FE6.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Lux Aeterna

[Othin]

I have a suggestion.

You and Banzai should go get a room. Seriously.

Unfortunately, he's straight. </3

Athos explicitly says if he warped them there it would prove nothing. He needed to see if they were worth of wielding the legendary weapons. If you don't remember that I'd suggest playing the chapter again and reading the dialogue.

Yes, I read this. Once again, there is nothing to show why it was needed, nor how it happening the way it did would change anything.

Finding the quotes to support your argument is your responsibility.

What Sage is trying to say is that while FE7's plot is not very good and we're all aware of that, it's obvious they are not being objective here and have an axe to grind.

I'm curious why you think that.

Not saying this with the intent of challenging you; I'd just like to find out what confusion caused this misunderstanding so it can be straightened out, as I assure you we have all intention of being completely objective.

Well. . .if Eliwood and Co. had a bunch of Athos help, and suddenly got divine weapons, that would be far more of a plot travesty than the entirety of that OP. It's as if they would've been Chosen by the Writers to be awesome with no work whatsoever.

Of course. Just like how the Black Fang being so close to capturing Nils and Ninian meant there was no good way 7 and 7x could possibly have been done, Athos being present, knowing as much as he did, and being willing to go to great lengths to help stop Nergal meant that there was no good way the Shrine of Seals plot could possible have been done. The problems are far deeper than the surface issues we address; the problems are the fundamental plot issues that cause the writers to have to choose those surface issues to make the story and gameplay work.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

the way i see it...excuse my language, but people see afew guys who tear apart the story of one of thier favorite game, thus this leads to them acting like you guys are being hateful trolls.

which you aren't, they just haven't gradurated from basic human interaction classes.

i also don't want to use the word butthurt...but that what it honestly seems like when people post those rude comments towards you guys

[-Cynthia-]

Yes, I read this. Once again, there is nothing to show why it was needed, nor how it happening the way it did would change anything.

Finding the quotes to support your argument is your responsibility.

Paper Jam already posted the relative quotes on the previous page, but if you want them restated here they are:

Hector says as much at the end of chapter 29: "If that's true, why didn't you just magic us here in the first place?"

To which Athos replied "What would that have proven? You cannot hope to succeed if you cannot trust your own strength. Your own power must drive you. That is the most important thing."

Perhaps you think Athos is silly for making the main characters go through all these fights when they could have been skipped instead, but the game does address that Athos could have done this and yet chose not to (because he wanted the heroes to prove themselves).

Edited July 29, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Othin]

the way i see it...excuse my language, but people see afew guys who tear apart the story of one of thier favorite game, thus this leads to them acting like you guys are being hateful trolls.

which you aren't, they just haven't gradurated from basic human interaction classes.

i also don't want to use the word butthurt...but that what it honestly seems like when people post those rude comments towards you guys

No need to escalate things.

Paper Jam already posted the relative quotes on the previous page, but if you want them restated here they are:

Perhaps you think Athos is silly for making the main characters go through all these fights when they could have been skipped instead, but the game does address that Athos could have done this and yet chose not to (because he wanted the heroes to prove themselves).

I already responded to those quotes.

Indeed, it addresses the matter, but what I am saying is that those quotes alone are not enough to sufficiently address the matter, with Athos bringing up things that had not been shown to be an issue in the first place, and again, it does nothing to address why he could not have given them directions and allowed them to talk there themselves, either.

This is pretty much the exact same post I made the last time those quotes were brought up. If anyone has anything new to add about why the quotes were accurate or why Athos could not have given them directions, I'd be interested to hear it, and in that case, we can discuss this further and gain more insight into FE7's story. If everyone is going to just continue pointing back to the quotes and asserting that they have to justify it just because Athos says they do, I'm done with this matter.

[bottlegnomes]

Yes, I read this. Once again, there is nothing to show why it was needed, nor how it happening the way it did would change anything.

All you said was he had no reason for not warping them there. This is his reason. Now you're just denying it because it doesn't fit with your point. As for why it was necessary, Brammimond already took some convincing to get it to open the seals, and part of how Athos convinced it was that they'd gotten there without his help.

Finding the quotes to support your argument is your responsibility.

So it's alright for you to make accusations without having any proof but if I try to rebut them I all of a sudden need to have proof?

Fine, here's the proof:

Lyn: Lord Athos, when did you arive?

Athos: Just now... I warped in, you know. I was watching you in my scrying crystal. The most important thing is that you've made it here.

Hector: If that's true, why didn't you just magic us here in the first place?

Athos: What would that have proven? You cannot succeed if you cannot trust your own strength. Your own power must drive you. That is the most important thing.

Athos: Your journey was a bit of a test, I'm afraid. I had to see if you were worthy of wielding a legendary item.

Athos: Brammimond, remember... we, too, are human. These people, they will not be seduced by power. They came here without my aid, using their own abilities. You observed them did you not?

Granted he still takes some more convincing, but their journey does play a role in him unsealing the weapons which the game points out, so stop acting as if it's some huge plot hole, and maybe next time you'll actually read the parts of the script you're criticizing.

EDIT: well, ninjaed. But that's still a crappy argument. As for why he didn't give them directions, that's part of their own strength, the ability to solve problems for themselves. There's more to just strength than fighting.

Edited July 29, 2011 by bottlegnomes

[-Cynthia-]

Indeed, it addresses the matter, but what I am saying is that those quotes alone are not enough to sufficiently address the matter, with Athos bringing up things that had not been shown to be an issue in the first place, and again, it does nothing to address why he could not have given them directions and allowed them to talk there themselves, either.

He sends people with them who know the general location of the Shrine of Seals with them. Besides, finding the Shrine is pretty clearly part of proving themselves, they're pretty crappy heroes if they can't even find the thing. As bottlegnomes said, there's more to strength to just fighting, they needed to use a variety of talents to get through Bern.

Edited July 29, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Othin]

All you said was he had no reason for not warping them there. This is his reason. Now you're just denying it because it doesn't fit with your point. As for why it was necessary, Brammimond already took some convincing to get it to open the seals, and part of how Athos convinced it was that they'd gotten there without his help.

False. I said his reason for not warping him there was valid, and gave reasons why.

So it's alright for you to make accusations without having any proof but if I try to rebut them I all of a sudden need to have proof?

I wasn't doubting the points you had already made, although I realize now that the wording of my post may have been poor such to imply that. I was under the impression that you were saying there were more statements in the game to back up what Athos said but simply telling me to find them for myself, but reading your post again, it looks like I had misread.

Fine, here's the proof:

Lyn: Lord Athos, when did you arive?

Athos: Just now... I warped in, you know. I was watching you in my scrying crystal. The most important thing is that you've made it here.

Hector: If that's true, why didn't you just magic us here in the first place?

Athos: What would that have proven? You cannot succeed if you cannot trust your own strength. Your own power must drive you. That is the most important thing.

Athos: Your journey was a bit of a test, I'm afraid. I had to see if you were worthy of wielding a legendary item.

Athos: Brammimond, remember... we, too, are human. These people, they will not be seduced by power. They came here without my aid, using their own abilities. You observed them did you not?

Granted he still takes some more convincing, but their journey does play a role in him unsealing the weapons which the game points out, so stop acting as if it's some huge plot hole, and maybe next time you'll actually read the parts of the script you're criticizing.

EDIT: well, ninjaed. But that's still a crappy argument. As for why he didn't give them directions, that's part of their own strength, the ability to solve problems for themselves. There's more to just strength than fighting.

Now, see, the Brammimond thing does change things, as that is indeed evidence of a need for them to prove something - to him. As far as I can see, that does justify Athos' actions, and with that in mind, I withdraw my arguments on the subject.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Othin

[bottlegnomes]

False. I said his reason for not warping him there was valid, and gave reasons why.

I wasn't doubting the points you had already made, although I realize now that the wording of my post may have been poor such to imply that. I was under the impression that you were saying there were more statements in the game to back up what Athos said but simply telling me to find them for myself, but reading your post again, it looks like I had misread.

Now, see, the Brammimond thing does change things, as that is indeed evidence of a need for them to prove something - to him. As far as I can see, that does justify Athos' actions, and with that in mind, I withdraw my arguments on the subject.

Fair enough.

Anyway, did you read my other statements about Jaffar's reasoning behind what he said to Nino, Legault's whole "super strong" thing, and Hector's sociopathy? I feel like those will give you something to think about, and might convince you that those aren't plot holes, or flaws in the story, granted the Jaffar one's a little flimsy, by which I mean it takes a fair bit of inferring. But I do have something to add to that. Sonia obviously trusts Ursula more than she trusts Jaffar, or else she wouldn't have sent Ursula to check on Jaffar, and since she does Nergal probably does, too. By killing the prince Jaffar would put himself in Sonia's, and Nergal's, good graces and probably become their most trusted "enforcer," since I can't think of a better term.

EDIT: just me being anal about my writing.

Edited July 29, 2011 by bottlegnomes

[Aethereal]

To add onto the Jaffar point, before leaving the Black Fang, his entire purpose for living was to please Nergal. Any chance he got, I'm sure he took as an "opportunity".

[Bryan]

The problem with Legualt is that he doesn't know where the bases are. Really? Really. Random mooks know about them and he doesn't. Didn't he quit around chapter 20? At which point it's logical to assume that the Black Fang couldn't have moved bases in that short of a time, nor would they have reason to. So it doesn't really make sense.

[Acacia Sgt]

It is ever stated that Legault didn't knew the location of the bases? He only mentions not knowing being able to say much of the Black Fang's current state, since he did quit after all.

[bottlegnomes]

The problem with Legualt is that he doesn't know where the bases are. Really? Really. Random mooks know about them and he doesn't. Didn't he quit around chapter 20? At which point it's logical to assume that the Black Fang couldn't have moved bases in that short of a time, nor would they have reason to. So it doesn't really make sense.

Again, what if the player doesn't recruit him? Are the designers going to take time to write two scripts, one for where he is recruited and one for where he isn't? No, that'd be a waste of time. And IIRC no one ever actually bothers asking him where they are, so really none of you have any way of knowing that he doesn't know where they are.