QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[BrightBow]

All you said was he had no reason for not warping them there. This is his reason. Now you're just denying it because it doesn't fit with your point. As for why it was necessary, Brammimond already took some convincing to get it to open the seals, and part of how Athos convinced it was that they'd gotten there without his help.

Isn't that a bit foolish on Athos part? I mean he was sending the heroes out into the blue to prove themselves without knowing whether or not Bramimond would even acknowledge their efforts. What stopped him from visiting him first and asking him how they can prove themselves worthy? Or whether or not this was even necessary. After all the weapons already lost most of their powers already and are unable to cause another Ending Winter so the risk of wielding them seems to be negligible to me.

Not to mention that Seals like this weren't even mentioned in FE6. There were all kinds of traps and all, but no seals that needed to be deactivated first.

And why not just kill Nergal while he is defenseless? I have a hard timing buying this whole: "Can't be killed by conventional means" thing when an mortally wounded man can knock him out cold for the next few months and even if I would buy it that the divine weapons are needed, Athos could simply finish him of himself with Forblaze.

In short: I think his whole part makes no sense whatsoever.

Edited July 29, 2011 by BrightBow

[Othin]

Fair enough.

Anyway, did you read my other statements about Jaffar's reasoning behind what he said to Nino, Legault's whole "super strong" thing, and Hector's sociopathy? I feel like those will give you something to think about, and might convince you that those aren't plot holes, or flaws in the story, granted the Jaffar one's a little flimsy, by which I mean it takes a fair bit of inferring. But I do have something to add to that. Sonia obviously trusts Ursula more than she trusts Jaffar, or else she wouldn't have sent Ursula to check on Jaffar, and since she does Nergal probably does, too. By killing the prince Jaffar would put himself in Sonia's, and Nergal's, good graces and probably become their most trusted "enforcer," since I can't think of a better term.

EDIT: just me being anal about my writing.

I indeed read those. I didn't think much of the matter of Jaffar's reasoning, as as you said, your original statements were rather flimsy. What you bring up now about trust being a factor makes it more plausible, although it's still not clear - unless I'm mistaken, the only time people trusting Jaffar is brought up as an issue is when Sonia distrusted him on the Zephiel mission enough to send Ursula, and Jaffar clearly couldn't have known that he was going to be followed. So it's not indicated that Jaffar knew about or was concerned about the extent to which other Black Fang members trusted him. It's plausible that he was talking about gaining trust, but it's also not clear that he would think of that mission as showing any more trust than his many other missions.

As for Legault, you're referring to when he says he killed people in their sleep, right? It's difficult to imagine him picking up such a great reputation just for that in a place like the Black Fang, but at least in this case, the issue really was addressed directly, so... I don't know. Was there anything else you had to say about this?

Regarding Hector's sociopathy, is this about the statements regarding morals in the Middle Ages? I was actually planning on getting back to that. The thing to keep in mind is that while the setting of the FE series is based in many ways on the Middle Ages, the Middle Ages are not simply the setting.

Lang:

If you want to know, I am going to slaughter the families of the rebels.

Then we will burn down any villages that harboured the rebels.

That will stop them from contemplating rebellion again.

Hahaha!

I can almost see the tears on the faces of those fools.

Marth:

What?!

How can you be so cruel...

Sigurd:

Huh? I don't follow.

What're you so angry about?

Levin:

Try putting yourself into these people's shoes for a second!

They're just tryin' to make a livin' here. Then you show up, flashin' your shiny swords around...

Sigurd:

Hmm... I see your point.

Geez, I feel awful about the Agustrian people.

Levin:

Well, talk is cheap. If you really feel so bad, why don't you pack up and leave?

Sigurd:

Alright then.

Look, I'll go consult with my people.

Levin:

W, w, whoa!

You serious about pullin' out!?

Sigurd:

Yeah, I've been tossing the idea around myself, and you just helped me make up my mind.

I'm through fighting.

I've got to try and settle this with King Shagaal peacefully.

Levin:

Ah... that'd be a complete and utter waste of your time. He wouldn't listen to you.

And if Grandbell pulls out now, all the citizens who helped you guys out'll be tossed in jail!

Doesn't that bother you?

Sigurd:

Well, um... of course it does!

But... didn't I, er...

Eyvel:

Yes. But be careful. Although they are Imperial troops, the lower-ranking ones are civilians forced into the army. If you can, don't kill them, take their weapons and let them escape. Understood?

Eliwood:

I... I've no love for war. If I concentrate on the foe before me, I'm fine. If I picture families, innocents caught up in our foolish politics? If I imagine them... All I can do is pray for a way to solve things peacefully.

Duessel:

Your Majesty, you know that I will gladly lay down my life for an honorable cause! But these orders--and all of our recent actions--they are not just! If I saw in any way in which this invasion protected Grado, I would hold my tongue. But now, Renais is left ungoverned to drown in chaos, and we gain nothing! Why do you wage this war? What is it you hope to achieve? You've sent our men to fight and die for nothing! This isn't war--it's murder!

Elincia

...Lord Ludveck, all your dissatisfaction and misgivings about me are well founded. However, do you realize how many lives you've simply thrown away?! Strength without compassion does not a ruler make. You care nothing for the people, sir. You cloak your desire to rule with pretty speeches, but it is petty avarice nonetheless!

Life is valued in FE.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Othin

[Acacia Sgt]

Again, what if the player doesn't recruit him? Are the designers going to take time to write two scripts, one for where he is recruited and one for where he isn't? No, that'd be a waste of time. And IIRC no one ever actually bothers asking him where they are, so really none of you have any way of knowing that he doesn't know where they are.

Actually, before Four-Fanged Offense there is a moment where Legault shows up in the dialogue if he was recruited.

Isn't that a bit foolish on Athos part? I mean he was sending the heroes out into the blue to prove themselves without knowing whether or not Bramimond would even acknowledge their efforts. What stopped him from visiting him first and asking him how they can prove themselves worthy? Or whether or not this was even necessary. After all the weapons already lost most of their powers already and are unable to cause another Ending Winter so the risk of wielding them seems to be negligible to me.

Not to mention that Seals like this weren't even mentioned in FE6. There were all kinds of traps and all, but no seals that needed to be deactivated first.

And why not just kill Nergal while he is defenseless? I have a hard timing buying this whole: "Can't be killed by conventional means" thing when an mortally wounded man can knock him out cold for the next few months and even if I would buy it that the divine weapons are needed, Athos could simply finish him of himself with Forblaze.

In short: I think his whole part makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, if they couldn't prove themselves of being able to reach the Shrine of Seals on their own, Divine Weapons or not, what hope he'd have for them against Nergal?

Because said seals were already gone by the time of SoS? Truly, that kinda explains why they're no guardians either. When you make a prequel, you can go out of your way to add a bunch of stuff not told before as long as you then try to avoid continuity error. Besides, even if they no longer had that immense power, they were still powerful, and I'd doubt there would be only traps to protect them. Just look how easily Durandal's place got overrun with bandits for example. In that case, anyone capable could get it and get the weapons.

Because Nergal may be weakened, but they'd still be the Black Fang and his Morphs to worry about. Athos couldn't possibly take them all out, even with the party's help at that point.

[Othin]

Well, if they couldn't prove themselves of being able to reach the Shrine of Seals on their own, Divine Weapons or not, what hope he'd have for them against Nergal?

Because said seals were already gone by the time of SoS? Truly, that kinda explains why they're no guardians either. When you make a prequel, you can go out of your way to add a bunch of stuff not told before as long as you then try to avoid continuity error. Besides, even if they no longer had that immense power, they were still powerful, and I'd doubt there would be only traps to protect them. Just look how easily Durandal's place got overrun with bandits for example. In that case, anyone capable could get it and get the weapons.

Because Nergal may be weakened, but they'd still be the Black Fang and his Morphs to worry about. Athos couldn't possibly take them all out, even with the party's help at that point.

Reaching Nergal wasn't an issue. Athos simply warped himself to the Dragon's Gate, and could have done it for Eliwood's team.

Lilina:

"No, don't worry. Only those of Roland's blood know how to remove the Durandal from its altar."

With apparently unlimited warping, it doesn't seem like it could have been difficult to warp to Nergal, kill him, and warp out.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Othin

[General Banzai]

I've always known about the quote in which Athos explains why he couldn't warp Eliwood and friends to the shrine, and that's why I didn't put it in the original analysis. It's a weak explanation for sure, but it's at least an explanation which isn't contradicted by anything else in the story.

Then there's some guy going around here who's saying that Othin and I aren't taking an objective look at this game. I must admit that I did not put as much about the positive aspects of this game into the analysis. So let me explain right now that there definitely ARE positive aspects about this game's plot. I'll list them here.

1. The relationship between Zephiel, Desmond, Hellene, and Guinevere. Considering this aspect of the plot is the most relevant part of FE7 to FE6, it's only fitting that it's probably the BEST part of FE7's plot. The writing for these characters is excellent and you really get a feel for the Desmond's hatred of his son. Really sets up Zephiel's corruption really well, and there's no real aspect about this subplot that has an egregious plothole (other than the Black Fang randomly doing Desmond's bidding for reasons which are odd that I already pointed out in the original post.)

2. Chapter 9. Pretty good stuff. I pointed this out in the thread, but I enjoyed the subtlety of having Lundgren's hold over Eagler implied through heresy rather than Lundgren showing up on screen, laughing maniacally, and telling Eagler how he has his dear wife hostage or whatever.

3. The writing of Kent and Sain in Lyn's Mode. Very well done here, and they have a lot of memorable quotes.

4. The character of Sonia. It's well-written and consistent throughout the story.

5. The characters of Pent, Harken, Karla, and Renault. These four characters are easily the most interesting four characters who you can recruit, and they generally have well-written supports. Renault and Karla have god tier supports in any case.

6. Limstella and Denning at endgame. I felt they really managed to convey the "creepiness" of the morphs for the first time in the story.

7. This line in Chapter 12:

Marcus: Alms? You look nothing like an honest man.

These are all GOOD aspects of this plot and I can honestly find few, if any, flaws with them.

[BrightBow]

Actually, before Four-Fanged Offense there is a moment where Legault shows up in the dialogue if he was recruited.

Well, if they couldn't prove themselves of being able to reach the Shrine of Seals on their own, Divine Weapons or not, what hope he'd have for them against Nergal?

Well as you said, he was weakened and seeing how he had to escape he is probably unlikely to be able to put up much resistance by himself.

Because said seals were already gone by the time of SoS? Truly, that kinda explains why they're no guardians either. When you make a prequel, you can go out of your way to add a bunch of stuff not told before as long as you then try to avoid continuity error. Besides, even if they no longer had that immense power, they were still powerful, and I'd doubt there would be only traps to protect them. Just look how easily Durandal's place got overrun with bandits for example. In that case, anyone capable could get it and get the weapons.

It is a problem because a seal should have stopped Roy's party from entering it. Branimond didn't die at the end of the game. Why wouldn't he reactivate the seals?

Because Nergal may be weakened, but they'd still be the Black Fang and his Morphs to worry about. Athos couldn't possibly take them all out, even with the party's help at that point.

He just needs to warp in and kill him with Forblaze. He would be almost defenseless because the powerful morphs are away collecting Quintessence.

[Acacia Sgt]

Reaching Nergal wasn't an issue. Athos simply warped himself to the Dragon's Gate, and could have done it for Eliwood's team.

Lilina:

"No, don't worry. Only those of Roland's blood know how to remove the Durandal from its altar."

With apparently unlimited warping, it doesn't seem like it could have been difficult to warp to Nergal, kill him, and warp out.

Again, what would that have proven? The main point was to convince Brammimond to release the seals on the Divine Weapons. I doubt just warping there and asking nicely would've done the task. He was shown to stubbornly remain to his isolation and conviction of not letting the weapons be used again.

I mentioned anyone capable. In fact, that's how you miss out getting Miurgre if you fail the turn requirement. The Djute remnants move it away.

But would he had the time, it's not like it takes him to cast the spell instantly. In that time, whoever may have been nearby would serve as distraction and Nergal will get away. Besides, one thing is to warp to the place, another is to know just where are you warping to. Nergal could move and be safe as long as Athos dosn't know just where exactly he is.

Well as you said, he was weakened and seeing how he had to escape he is probably unlikely to be able to put up much resistance by himself.

It is a problem because a seal should have stopped Roy's party from entering it. Branimond didn't die at the end of the game. Why wouldn't he reactivate the seals?

He just needs to warp in and kill him with Forblaze. He would be almost defenseless because the powerful morphs are away collecting Quintessence.

Well, as much as a in-story explanation would satisfy more, keep in mind that this is a prequel. As such, add anything that contradicts continuity, you have to make sure it fixes itself by the end, whether or not this brings the points you're making. Maybe he couldn't place them again. Maybe he died not that soon after Athos. Whatever it was, he couldn't place the seals again in time.

Except there would be Black Fang members there, and collecting Quintessence isn't something any Morph can do. So he could spare some and task them in protecting him.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Acacia Sgt

[Original Alear]

He sends people with them who know the general location of the Shrine of Seals with them. Besides, finding the Shrine is pretty clearly part of proving themselves, they're pretty crappy heroes if they can't even find the thing. As bottlegnomes said, there's more to strength to just fighting, they needed to use a variety of talents to get through Bern.

If I thought you guys were SRW fans I would post a Masaki picture or something. The dude is a hero wit ha terrible sense of direction. CYBUSTAA.

The problem with Legualt is that he doesn't know where the bases are. Really? Really. Random mooks know about them and he doesn't. Didn't he quit around chapter 20? At which point it's logical to assume that the Black Fang couldn't have moved bases in that short of a time, nor would they have reason to. So it doesn't really make sense.

Maybe they moved between him moving to the Dread Isle and Chapter 20. The time window might be larger than you think. Why would a guy stationed on the Dread Isle know Bern base locations with absolute confidence? However, it does seem like he might be holding out...

With apparently unlimited warping, it doesn't seem like it could have been difficult to warp to Nergal, kill him, and warp out.

Nergal has apparently unlimited warping too? If Nergal had reason to think that Athos could take him 1 on 1, then Nergal could play keep away. Only in a match where each is confident of the other's defeat does either have a chance at death, or so I would argue.

6. Limstella and Denning at endgame. I felt they really managed to convey the "creepiness" of the morphs for the first time in the story.

I never really felt Limstella was creepy, somehow one feels sorry for her. Probably because she's a pretty girl.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Loki Laufeyjarson

[Dark Sage]

You honestly don't get why the Black Fang are working for the King?

Did you pay attention to the script at all? They are ASSASSINS FOR HIRE. They clearly would benefit from the chaos the prince's death would cause as well. To say they're randomly working for the king is completely retarded.

[General Banzai]

Limstella a pretty girl? She's utterly androgynous.

[Othin]

It is a problem because a seal should have stopped Roy's party from entering it. Branimond didn't die at the end of the game. Why wouldn't he reactivate the seals?

Is it stated that the seals could be reactivated? I wouldn't assume that they could.

Again, what would that have proven? The main point was to convince Brammimond to release the seals on the Divine Weapons. I doubt just warping there and asking nicely would've done the task. He was shown to stubbornly remain to his isolation and conviction of not letting the weapons be used again.

I mentioned anyone capable. In fact, that's how you miss out getting Miurgre if you fail the turn requirement. The Djute remnants move it away.

But would he had the time, it's not like it takes him to cast the spell instantly. In that time, whoever may have been nearby would serve as distraction and Nergal will get away. Besides, one thing is to warp to the place, another is to know just where are you warping to. Nergal could move and be safe as long as Athos dosn't know just where exactly he is.

I'm not talking about persuading Brammimond; I'm talking about killing Nergal.

Fair point.

Casting time of a warp spell is not shown to be an issue; Ephidel warps away just as Lyn runs up to stab him.

And if Nergal started to flee or hide somewhere else, it would mean that Athos would have him on the run and could continue pursuing him. Wouldn't leave Nergal able to do much of anything.

You honestly don't get why the Black Fang are working for the King?

Did you pay attention to the script at all? They are ASSASSINS FOR HIRE. They clearly would benefit from the chaos the prince's death would cause as well. To say they're randomly working for the king is completely retarded.

They're at one point stated to be assassins for hire. The rest of the time, they're indicated to be a group formerly fighting against corrupt nobles in Bern which Nergal manipulated to serve his goals. Neither one of those things is really compatible with "assassins for hire". People working hard towards a goal don't just take jobs for money on the side when all that does is keep them from focusing on the goal and not advance it.

As for the chaos, they planned to kill Nino, which was a measure to prevent chaos resulting from the assassination. It likely would not prevent all of it, but there's no reason for them to even try preventing any.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Othin

[General Banzai]

You honestly don't get why the Black Fang are working for the King?

Did you pay attention to the script at all? They are ASSASSINS FOR HIRE. They clearly would benefit from the chaos the prince's death would cause as well. To say they're randomly working for the king is completely retarded.

Did you pay attention to the analysis at all? They are WORKING FOR NERGAL. They clearly WOULD benefit from the chaos the prince's death would cause as well, but Sonia has Jaffar kill Nino as a scapegoat with the express reason of STOPPING BERN FROM FALLING INTO CHAOS. She says that. I posted the quote in the analysis. She says "This assassination will throw Bern into chaos. We need to have a scapegoat to stop that from happening."

Furthermore, they try to explain why they are working for the king (in order to convince him to start a war and get quintessence), but as I stated in the analysis this is stupid for two reasons: One, because at over 9000 points in the story people explain how Bern is just itching to attack Lycia and only needs to see the slightest chink in her armor to invade with full might, and two, because in the end Nergal never needed quintessence to call dragons anyways.

[bottlegnomes]

I indeed read those. I didn't think much of the matter of Jaffar's reasoning, as as you said, your original statements were rather flimsy. What you bring up now about trust being a factor makes it more plausible, although it's still not clear - unless I'm mistaken, the only time people trusting Jaffar is brought up as an issue is when Sonia distrusted him on the Zephiel mission enough to send Ursula, and Jaffar clearly couldn't have known that he was going to be followed. So it's not indicated that Jaffar knew about or was concerned about the extent to which other Black Fang members trusted him. It's plausible that he was talking about gaining trust, but it's also not clear that he would think of that mission as showing any more trust than his many other missions.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. This is all speculation, but if Sonia doesn't trust Jaffar for one mission my guess is that, considering Jaffar isn't stupid, she doesn't trust him as much as Ursula overall, and he knows that. As for the rest of it, I'm feeling lazy right now, but IIRC there is a quote about Lloyd being the leader of the four fangs, which would put him above Jaffar.

As for Legault, you're referring to when he says he killed people in their sleep, right? It's difficult to imagine him picking up such a great reputation just for that in a place like the Black Fang, but at least in this case, the issue really was addressed directly, so... I don't know. Was there anything else you had to say about this?

His reputation was more of a fear-mongering than anything IIRC. Basically people had to worry about the hurricane killing them if they failed, and over time this got blown out of proportion. But otherwise, not really.

Regarding Hector's sociopathy, is this about the statements regarding morals in the Middle Ages? I was actually planning on getting back to that. The thing to keep in mind is that while the setting of the FE series is based in many ways on the Middle Ages, the Middle Ages are not simply the setting.

Life is valued in FE.

I left the actual dialogue out because well, it took up a lot of space. Those do show that life is valued in FE but there's a few differences between those scenarios and the one Hector is in. In those, the characters are talking about civilians, with the exception of Evayle, which is just a way to try to work in some explanation of the capture system and is there for no other reason, while Hector's situation is that a very dear friend of his is in danger from bandits and this man is actively preventing Hector from helping said friend. Plus it's obvious he's an enemy because he has red armor.

I've always known about the quote in which Athos explains why he couldn't warp Eliwood and friends to the shrine, and that's why I didn't put it in the original analysis. It's a weak explanation for sure, but it's at least an explanation which isn't contradicted by anything else in the story.

Then there's some guy going around here who's saying that Othin and I aren't taking an objective look at this game. I must admit that I did not put as much about the positive aspects of this game into the analysis. So let me explain right now that there definitely ARE positive aspects about this game's plot. I'll list them here.

1. The relationship between Zephiel, Desmond, Hellene, and Guinevere. Considering this aspect of the plot is the most relevant part of FE7 to FE6, it's only fitting that it's probably the BEST part of FE7's plot. The writing for these characters is excellent and you really get a feel for the Desmond's hatred of his son. Really sets up Zephiel's corruption really well, and there's no real aspect about this subplot that has an egregious plothole (other than the Black Fang randomly doing Desmond's bidding for reasons which are odd that I already pointed out in the original post.)

2. Chapter 9. Pretty good stuff. I pointed this out in the thread, but I enjoyed the subtlety of having Lundgren's hold over Eagler implied through heresy rather than Lundgren showing up on screen, laughing maniacally, and telling Eagler how he has his dear wife hostage or whatever.

3. The writing of Kent and Sain in Lyn's Mode. Very well done here, and they have a lot of memorable quotes.

4. The character of Sonia. It's well-written and consistent throughout the story.

5. The characters of Pent, Harken, Karla, and Renault. These four characters are easily the most interesting four characters who you can recruit, and they generally have well-written supports. Renault and Karla have god tier supports in any case.

6. Limstella and Denning at endgame. I felt they really managed to convey the "creepiness" of the morphs for the first time in the story.

7. This line in Chapter 12:

Marcus: Alms? You look nothing like an honest man.

These are all GOOD aspects of this plot and I can honestly find few, if any, flaws with them.

I'm gonna be a dick for a second, then I'll make an actual point. I believe you mean hearsay, gathering information through statements from people not directly involved, not heresy, adherence to religious doctrines contrary to that of the churhc, and it's "characters whom you can recruit," not "who you can recruit."

As for the actual points, the only things I'd really disagree with you on are Harken's supports, which may be due to me not having seen enough of them, and Limstella being creepier than Ephidel or Sonia, even. IMO Limstella isn't any creepier than Sonia, but that's probably personal preference.

[BrightBow]

Is it stated that the seals could be reactivated? I wouldn't assume that they could.

Why not? If he is the only one who can deactivate then it seems reasonable to me that he must be the one who created the seals in the first place. But as @Acacia Sgt said, he probably just died.

Or maybe he simply left the seals deactivated because of Athos prophecy.

Edited July 29, 2011 by BrightBow

[Aethereal]

Why not? If he is the only one who can deactivate then it seems reasonable to me that he must be the one who created the seals in the first place. But as @Acacia Sgt said, he probably just died.

Or maybe he simply left the seals deactivated because of Athos prophecy.

I'd think the Seals were put up by the Sword of Seals, which Bramimond couldn't use. But maybe I'm wrong.

[Paperblade]

I'm curious why you think that.

Not saying this with the intent of challenging you; I'd just like to find out what confusion caused this misunderstanding so it can be straightened out, as I assure you we have all intention of being completely objective.

A lot of your points ignore that most other games in the series do the same things, which makes you come off as a butthurt fanboy that's cherrypicking points.

For example, you complained often that they're only sending random mooks at you in chapters like 7x and 18 instead of just easily crushing you, when it's pretty obvious this is an example of gameplay/storyline separation and EVERY GAME DOES THIS.

Why didn't Ashnard send his big guns at you in Ch. 4 when he was looking for Elincia, instead sending random mooks? Same for the following chapters.

They know you're on a boat heading towards Begnion, but the only people that do anything about it are a squad of Daein deserters and Jill (and Jill just wants to join up).

Why didn't Narshen come out and quash Roy in Ch. 4? He was right there.

Why didn't Valter follow Seth when Seth ran away?

Why didn't Julius or any of the various Lopt Sect members just teleport in and instagib you (you can't even use the "warp is tiresome" argument, Julius teleported in to save several bosses and didn't even give a shit about you, and several bosses teleported away if it wasn't their final appearance)? No, Shanan and Oifaye are out, so their big push in the start of Ch. 6... is a bunch of low level fighters and armors.

There is a similar deal in FE5's Ch. 1. Leidrick takes Nanna and Mareeta prisoner and then just leaves his random mooks to die. I thought Leaf was the target here? And again, they just let you run away in Ch. 5, choosing instead to just Stone Eyvel and laugh evilly.

Why was Micaiah and friends captured in Ch. 3 instead of just killed? Jarod was a pretty ruthless guy.

Why did Ludveck just send a small band of guys after Lucia in 2-2, judging from the size of his army he could have easily cornered and crushed her there.

Ranulf should have been cleaved in two in that cutscene.

Zephiel has like all the big names with him in Chapter 13, and he just beats up Cecilia and leaves. Why?

also, more on the subject of gameplay/storyline segregation

[12:32] <@Sagekitty> Actually, I love how Banzai bitches about Legault not being a level 10 assassin, but finds no problem with the LEGNEDARY WARRIOR Garcia being merely a level 4 fighter.

[12:43] <@Paperblade> oh

[12:43] <@Paperblade> Cormag is also like

[12:43] <@Paperblade> second only to Glen

[12:43] <@Paperblade> and he's a level 10 Wyvern Rider

[12:43] <@Sagekitty> Level 9 actually

[12:46] <@Paperblade> also Duessel is an idiot

[12:46] <@Sagekitty> So is Knoll

[12:46] <@Paperblade> Valter is Duessel's fault

[12:47] <@Paperblade> he has a fucking magic cursed lance that makes the wielder insane

[12:47] <@Paperblade> and he brings it to combat

[12:47] <@Paperblade> and it gets stolen by Valter

[12:47] <@Paperblade> who gets driven crazy by it

[12:47] <@Sagekitty> Why do we never see Valter using that lance in the game?

[12:47] <@zorbees> lol

[12:47] <@Paperblade> Obvious solution: DON'T BRING THE LANCE TO BATTLE?

[12:47] <@zorbees> where was this in the game?

[12:47] <@Paperblade> YOU AREN'T USING IT ANYWAY

[12:47] <@Paperblade> Cormag/Duessel support

[12:47] <@zorbees> i see

[12:47] <@Paperblade> oh and then he gives it to Cormag

[12:47] <@Sagekitty> But seriously, why doesn't Valter use it ingame?

[12:47] <@Paperblade> because Cormag is like "np I got this bro"

[12:48] <@Paperblade> because Duessel took it back

It's also obvious you didn't read the supports, which would explain a few things that you seemed utterly baffled by (such as Kishuna).

the way i see it...excuse my language, but people see afew guys who tear apart the story of one of thier favorite game, thus this leads to them acting like you guys are being hateful trolls.

LOL, apparently calling me a fanboy is okay even though me calling someone else a fanboy makes me uncivilized. Never change, internet.

Yeah, I think FE7's plot is flawless, that's why I have a topic dedicated to making fun of it, and said he was spoiling my jokes, because, you know, me and most other people have already noticed this.

The point is he obviously thinks that story >= gameplay and that gameplay should twist to conform to story (many of his invalid complaints focus on this), when quite frankly, that's silly and dumb. Video games probably aren't for him. Video game plots, frankly, are not very good. I suggest books and movies instead, y'know?

I guess the "DO NOT UNDERSTAND" in the topic title was literal.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Paperkitty

[-Cynthia-]

5. The characters of Pent, Harken, Karla, and Renault. These four characters are easily the most interesting four characters who you can recruit, and they generally have well-written supports. Renault and Karla have god tier supports in any case.

Easily? I think that's debatable certainly. Your tone is a bit overly authoritative with your opinions IMO.

Also I'm questioning your character analyses in general, since you seemed to judge Geitz as terrible based on one support.

[Othin]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I meant. This is all speculation, but if Sonia doesn't trust Jaffar for one mission my guess is that, considering Jaffar isn't stupid, she doesn't trust him as much as Ursula overall, and he knows that. As for the rest of it, I'm feeling lazy right now, but IIRC there is a quote about Lloyd being the leader of the four fangs, which would put him above Jaffar.

Certainly plausible, but it still doesn't make sense without some indication that that mission in particular would have some great gain to Jaffar in terms of trust or leadership or whatever else.

His reputation was more of a fear-mongering than anything IIRC. Basically people had to worry about the hurricane killing them if they failed, and over time this got blown out of proportion. But otherwise, not really.

Is that supported in the game?

I left the actual dialogue out because well, it took up a lot of space. Those do show that life is valued in FE but there's a few differences between those scenarios and the one Hector is in. In those, the characters are talking about civilians, with the exception of Evayle, which is just a way to try to work in some explanation of the capture system and is there for no other reason, while Hector's situation is that a very dear friend of his is in danger from bandits and this man is actively preventing Hector from helping said friend. Plus it's obvious he's an enemy because he has red armor.

There's no reason why a neutral soldiers's life would be valued less than that of a civilian. And that's what the soldier was.

Hector:

Hey! What's going on over there? Looks like some rough business. You! Soldier! Are you just going to stand there and watch?

Soldier:

Who do you think you are? This is Santaruz. What occurs here is no affair of any foreign lordling!

Hector:

I believe I'm going to have to disagree with you. You see, the man they're attacking happens to be a friend of mine.

Soldier:

A friend? What? ...Urrrgh!!

No indication of the soldier doing anything to obstruct him, just standing there. He was displayed red in the game, but there is nothing in the story to justify that classification, just that Hector would look less awful that way to people not paying more attention.

Besides, Eyvel, Duessel, and Elincia all refer at least partially to soldiers dying, and to say that Eyvel's quote is simply for gameplay reasons is just unreasonable. In one line, Eyvel shows the horrors of the war in Thracia at an entirely new level, while encouraging her allies to make the sacrifice of taking additional risk in combat for the sake of people being forced to fight them, establishing them even more solidly as heroes in the hell Thracia had become. It also introduced the capture system, and that may have been why the line existed, but it is not the only purpose it serves, and it would never exist in a setting like the one you describe.

I'm sure I could dig up more quotes referring specifically to enemy soldiers, but I would think this is enough, especially with the previously established matter that the soldier was not an enemy.

Why not? If he is the only one who can deactivate then it seems reasonable to me that he must be the one who created the seals in the first place. But as @Acacia Sgt said, he probably just died.

Or maybe he simply left the seals deactivated because of Athos prophecy.

Even if Brammimond had a role wholly or partially in making the seals, it is not necessarily shown that he could feasibly make new seals a second time, a thousand years later, with things being so different.

[General Banzai]

Why didn't Ashnard send his big guns at you in Ch. 4 when he was looking for Elincia, instead sending random mooks? Same for the following chapters. Dunno bout Ch 4, but he sends a General (Dakova) at you in Ch. 5, and Petrine after you in the chapters after that. Not quite random mooks.

They know you're on a boat heading towards Begnion, but the only people that do anything about it are a squad of Daein deserters and Jill (and Jill just wants to join up).Explained in-game. Daein doesn't have the military might to contest Begnion and doesn't want to piss them off. This is why Norris and his soldiers all dress up like random pirates. In fact, Norris was disobeying orders when he chased Ike and friends anyways.

Why didn't Narshen come out and quash Roy in Ch. 4? He was right there. Narshen leaves before Roy attacks. He goes to Ostia, because that's where he thinks Roy is going. This is said in-game.

Why didn't Valter follow Seth when Seth ran away? Valter's motivation is to prolong the war--and the pleasure he derives from murder--as long as possible. Killing Eirika right away is antithetical to his goals. This is also why later in the game he orders Selena away in Ch 10 Ephraim and lets Eirika escape again in Ch 10 Eirika.

Why didn't Julius or any of the various Lopt Sect members just teleport in and instagib you (you can't even use the "warp is tiresome" argument, Julius teleported in to save several bosses and didn't even give a shit about you, and several bosses teleported away if it wasn't their final appearance)? No, Shanan and Oifaye are out, so their big push in the start of Ch. 6... is a bunch of low level fighters and armors. Never played FE4

There is a similar deal in FE5's Ch. 1. Leidrick takes Nanna and Mareeta prisoner and then just leaves his random mooks to die. I thought Leaf was the target here? And again, they just let you run away in Ch. 5, choosing instead to just Stone Eyvel and laugh evilly. This is a problem in Thracia too. But the real issue with Thracia is how little Veld actually does in the plot.

Why was Micaiah and friends captured in Ch. 3 instead of just killed? Jarod was a pretty ruthless guy. Micaiah surrenders. Jarod kills a lot of people who are standing up to him, but never in the game fights anyone who refuses to fight him. In fact several statements later in the game refer to Jarod as being "a scoundrel and a fiend... but having a soldier's honesty.

Why did Ludveck just send a small band of guys after Lucia in 2-2, judging from the size of his army he could have easily cornered and crushed her there. Maraj states that Ludveck doesn't know Maraj is there. In fact, Ludveck doesn't realize Lucia is out to get him until afterwards. Maraj explains that Ludveck trust Lucia, but he (Maraj) does not, and that is why Maraj attacks.

Ranulf should have been cleaved in two in that cutscene. What, again Zelgius?

Zephiel has like all the big names with him in Chapter 13, and he just beats up Cecilia and leaves. Why? Dunno lol

So yeah most of the time it's explained in the plot. Of course a coupla exceptions (two exceptions actually). So it's done other times but not often, and it's unforgivable either way.

[bottlegnomes]

A lot of your points ignore that most other games in the series do the same things, which makes you come off as a butthurt fanboy that's cherrypicking points.

For example, you complained often that they're only sending random mooks at you in chapters like 7x and 18 instead of just easily crushing you, when it's pretty obvious this is an example of gameplay/storyline separation and EVERY GAME DOES THIS.

Why didn't Ashnard send his big guns at you in Ch. 4 when he was looking for Elincia, instead sending random mooks? Same for the following chapters.

They know you're on a boat heading towards Begnion, but the only people that do anything about it are a squad of Daein deserters and Jill (and Jill just wants to join up).

Why didn't Narshen come out and quash Roy in Ch. 4? He was right there.

Why didn't Valter follow Seth when Seth ran away?

Why didn't Julius or any of the various Lopt Sect members just teleport in and instagib you (you can't even use the "warp is tiresome" argument, Julius teleported in to save several bosses and didn't even give a shit about you, and several bosses teleported away if it wasn't their final appearance)? No, Shanan and Oifaye are out, so their big push in the start of Ch. 6... is a bunch of low level fighters and armors.

There is a similar deal in FE5's Ch. 1. Leidrick takes Nanna and Mareeta prisoner and then just leaves his random mooks to die. I thought Leaf was the target here? And again, they just let you run away in Ch. 5, choosing instead to just Stone Eyvel and laugh evilly.

Why was Micaiah and friends captured in Ch. 3 instead of just killed? Jarod was a pretty ruthless guy.

Why did Ludveck just send a small band of guys after Lucia in 2-2, judging from the size of his army he could have easily cornered and crushed her there.

Ranulf should have been cleaved in two in that cutscene.

Zephiel has like all the big names with him in Chapter 13, and he just beats up Cecilia and leaves. Why?

also, more on the subject of gameplay/storyline segregation

[12:32] <@Sagekitty> Actually, I love how Banzai bitches about Legault not being a level 10 assassin, but finds no problem with the LEGNEDARY WARRIOR Garcia being merely a level 4 fighter.

[12:43] <@Paperblade> oh

[12:43] <@Paperblade> Cormag is also like

[12:43] <@Paperblade> second only to Glen

[12:43] <@Paperblade> and he's a level 10 Wyvern Rider

[12:43] <@Sagekitty> Level 9 actually

[12:46] <@Paperblade> also Duessel is an idiot

[12:46] <@Sagekitty> So is Knoll

[12:46] <@Paperblade> Valter is Duessel's fault

[12:47] <@Paperblade> he has a fucking magic cursed lance that makes the wielder insane

[12:47] <@Paperblade> and he brings it to combat

[12:47] <@Paperblade> and it gets stolen by Valter

[12:47] <@Paperblade> who gets driven crazy by it

[12:47] <@Sagekitty> Why do we never see Valter using that lance in the game?

[12:47] <@zorbees> lol

[12:47] <@Paperblade> Obvious solution: DON'T BRING THE LANCE TO BATTLE?

[12:47] <@zorbees> where was this in the game?

[12:47] <@Paperblade> YOU AREN'T USING IT ANYWAY

[12:47] <@Paperblade> Cormag/Duessel support

[12:47] <@zorbees> i see

[12:47] <@Paperblade> oh and then he gives it to Cormag

[12:47] <@Sagekitty> But seriously, why doesn't Valter use it ingame?

[12:47] <@Paperblade> because Cormag is like "np I got this bro"

[12:48] <@Paperblade> because Duessel took it back

It's also obvious you didn't read the supports, which would explain a few things that you seemed utterly baffled by (such as Kishuna).

LOL, apparently calling me a fanboy is okay even though me calling someone else a fanboy makes me uncivilized. Never change, internet.

Yeah, I think FE7's plot is flawless, that's why I have a topic dedicated to making fun of it, and said he was spoiling my jokes, because, you know, me and most other people have already noticed this.

The point is he obviously thinks that story >= gameplay and that gameplay should twist to conform to story (many of his invalid complaints focus on this), when quite frankly, that's silly and dumb. Video games probably aren't for him. Video game plots, frankly, are not very good. I suggest books and movies instead, y'know?

I guess the "DO NOT UNDERSTAND" in the topic title was literal.

This made me laugh, in a good way.

Certainly plausible, but it still doesn't make sense without some indication that that mission in particular would have some great gain to Jaffar in terms of trust or leadership or whatever else.

Like I said that's all purely speculation, but I really don't think it's unreasonable speculation, which pretty much every novel ever written has.

Is that supported in the game?

I'll just refer you to Matt and Legault's supports. I'm not gonna post it because it'd take up a lot of space and serenesforest has it. Again, I feel that that makes it pretty clear what the situation was, though not explicitly so. But again, if you want everything to be explicit, then you're never going to find something that meets your standards, because like I said, pretty much every story ever written doesn't explicitly state what it's saying and it takes a fair bit of inferring to determine what the author's intent was.

There's no reason why a neutral soldiers's life would be valued less than that of a civilian. And that's what the soldier was.

Hector:

Hey! What's going on over there? Looks like some rough business. You! Soldier! Are you just going to stand there and watch?

Soldier:

Who do you think you are? This is Santaruz. What occurs here is no affair of any foreign lordling!

Hector:

I believe I'm going to have to disagree with you. You see, the man they're attacking happens to be a friend of mine.

Soldier:

A friend? What? ...Urrrgh!!

No indication of the soldier doing anything to obstruct him, just standing there. He was displayed red in the game, but there is nothing in the story to justify that classification, just that Hector would look less awful that way to people not paying more attention.

Besides, Eyvel, Duessel, and Elincia all refer at least partially to soldiers dying, and to say that Eyvel's quote is simply for gameplay reasons is just unreasonable. In one line, Eyvel shows the horrors of the war in Thracia at an entirely new level, while encouraging her allies to make the sacrifice of taking additional risk in combat for the sake of people being forced to fight them, establishing them even more solidly as heroes in the hell Thracia had become. It also introduced the capture system, and that may have been why the line existed, but it is not the only purpose it serves, and it would never exist in a setting like the one you describe.

I'm sure I could dig up more quotes referring specifically to enemy soldiers, but I would think this is enough, especially with the previously established matter that the soldier was not an enemy.

This is not the affair of a foreign lordling, sounds like interfering to me.

As for Duessel, Evayle, and Elincia. Again, I'm going to get somewhat stereotypical here. Elincia and Evayle are women. Women are known to be more opposed to violence. Also, Elincia has been sheltered her whole life so she's never seen any battle. Duessel is much like Oswin in that he's a veteran soldier but doesn't like to fight, so he's an exception.

[Paper Jam]

And why not just kill Nergal while he is defenseless?

First they would have had to FIND Nergal while he was defenseless. All they knew was that he was somewhere to the east, courtesy of Nils' spider sense. And Nils had no better idea where he was when they got to Bern than when they were in Ostia.

They didn't have the time or the resources to scour Bern for Nergal, so all they could do was arm themselves for his eventual return.

[Othin]

A lot of your points ignore that most other games in the series do the same things, which makes you come off as a butthurt fanboy that's cherrypicking points.

We didn't find that to be relevant. No game in the series is without its errors, but in FE7's case, those errors are especially bad.

For example, you complained often that they're only sending random mooks at you in chapters like 7x and 18 instead of just easily crushing you, when it's pretty obvious this is an example of gameplay/storyline separation and EVERY GAME DOES THIS.

Let's see how justified it is.

Why didn't Ashnard send his big guns at you in Ch. 4 when he was looking for Elincia, instead sending random mooks? Same for the following chapters.

In Ch4, they didn't know Elincia's exact location; the generals may have been elsewhere. Shortly afterward, Petrine and the Black Knight indeed start pursuing you, and reasons are given why they do not enter combat with your troops - reasons that have already been discussed here.

They know you're on a boat heading towards Begnion, but the only people that do anything about it are a squad of Daein deserters and Jill (and Jill just wants to join up).

The Black Knight had ordered the soldiers not to pursue them, and his order to do so came from Sephiran, who didn't have any reason to want Daein to capture Elincia.

Why didn't Narshen come out and quash Roy in Ch. 4? He was right there.

See Banzai's post; seems that was one of the things he answered better than I could while I was typing this up.

Why didn't Valter follow Seth when Seth ran away?

Because he's Valter. Like the Black Knight, he's a traitor to the enemy country and follows his own agenda.

Valter:

Heh heh... Stupid woman. If Grado wins too easily, there'll be no more bloodshed. We must do what we can to extend the fun... I believe it's time for me to return to my darling Eirika. It wouldn't do for Glen to arrive before me, would it? Take care of things here before I return to you. Understood?

Why didn't Julius or any of the various Lopt Sect members just teleport in and instagib you (you can't even use the "warp is tiresome" argument, Julius teleported in to save several bosses and didn't even give a shit about you, and several bosses teleported away if it wasn't their final appearance)? No, Shanan and Oifaye are out, so their big push in the start of Ch. 6... is a bunch of low level fighters and armors.

Initially, Celice was not a real threat to the Empire, who had control over every continent. There were many bigger concerns they could have plausibly had, and FE5 taking place at the time is one of them.

Past that point, by the time it starts to get into Chapter 7, Celice's group quickly gets a hold of several Holy weapons, and therefore could not be defeated easily. They could even pose a threat to Julius - in Ch10, not having Awareness or a castle protecting him, he can reasonably be defeated; he wouldn't want to risk taking a crit from Aless' Mistoltin when he has other people to send, with Holy weapons of their own. Bear in mind that every chapter from 7 on in Gen 2 has at least one boss with a Holy weapon anyway.

There is a similar deal in FE5's Ch. 1. Leidrick takes Nanna and Mareeta prisoner and then just leaves his random mooks to die. I thought Leaf was the target here? And again, they just let you run away in Ch. 5, choosing instead to just Stone Eyvel and laugh evilly.

Why was Micaiah and friends captured in Ch. 3 instead of just killed? Jarod was a pretty ruthless guy.

Why did Ludveck just send a small band of guys after Lucia in 2-2, judging from the size of his army he could have easily cornered and crushed her there.

See Banzai's post.

Ranulf should have been cleaved in two in that cutscene.

Apparently that's not how swords in video games work, a necessary mechanic to a game of this style that could not be avoided by any reasonable amount of story improvement - this, unlike the issues we discuss here, is gameplay and story segregation at its barest minimum.

Zephiel has like all the big names with him in Chapter 13, and he just beats up Cecilia and leaves. Why?

Because FE6 has some plot issues too, unless someone has a better explanation.

also, more on the subject of gameplay/storyline segregation

[12:32] <@Sagekitty> Actually, I love how Banzai bitches about Legault not being a level 10 assassin, but finds no problem with the LEGNEDARY WARRIOR Garcia being merely a level 4 fighter.

Garcia hasn't fought in a long time.

[12:43] <@Paperblade> oh

[12:43] <@Paperblade> Cormag is also like

[12:43] <@Paperblade> second only to Glen

[12:43] <@Paperblade> and he's a level 10 Wyvern Rider

[12:43] <@Sagekitty> Level 9 actually

Exact quote?

[12:46] <@Paperblade> also Duessel is an idiot

[12:46] <@Sagekitty> So is Knoll

[12:46] <@Paperblade> Valter is Duessel's fault

[12:47] <@Paperblade> he has a fucking magic cursed lance that makes the wielder insane

[12:47] <@Paperblade> and he brings it to combat

[12:47] <@Paperblade> and it gets stolen by Valter

[12:47] <@Paperblade> who gets driven crazy by it

[12:47] <@Sagekitty> Why do we never see Valter using that lance in the game?

[12:47] <@zorbees> lol

[12:47] <@Paperblade> Obvious solution: DON'T BRING THE LANCE TO BATTLE?

[12:47] <@zorbees> where was this in the game?

[12:47] <@Paperblade> YOU AREN'T USING IT ANYWAY

[12:47] <@Paperblade> Cormag/Duessel support

[12:47] <@zorbees> i see

[12:47] <@Paperblade> oh and then he gives it to Cormag

[12:47] <@Sagekitty> But seriously, why doesn't Valter use it ingame?

[12:47] <@Paperblade> because Cormag is like "np I got this bro"

[12:48] <@Paperblade> because Duessel took it back

Duessel: Yes, Cormag. It's a magic weapon of dark design that's been in my family for ages. Legend states that the leader of our house must always carry it, but never use it. We are prohibited from wielding it until such a time as madness itself rules the day. It's part of my legacy, and yet...I... I made a grave error... I allowed Valter to use this lance.

It's also obvious you didn't read the supports, which would explain a few things that you seemed utterly baffled by (such as Kishuna).

Specifics? We aren't doing to dig through to find the evidence you claim is there to support your side; as I said to others earlier, that's your responsibility. When we started looking at supports, the first thing we found was another plothole - an oath apparently taken by Lycian lords to defend each others' territories, which is apparently ignored in the story.

Like I said that's all purely speculation, but I really don't think it's unreasonable speculation, which pretty much every novel ever written has.

I'll just refer you to Matt and Legault's supports. I'm not gonna post it because it'd take up a lot of space and serenesforest has it. Again, I feel that that makes it pretty clear what the situation was, though not explicitly so. But again, if you want everything to be explicit, then you're never going to find something that meets your standards, because like I said, pretty much every story ever written doesn't explicitly state what it's saying and it takes a fair bit of inferring to determine what the author's intent was.

The Jaffar matter requires assuming that the mission would require him to be more trustworthy than ever before, which with no evidence, as it seems to be as far as he's concerned a perfectly normal mission, is not wholly reasonably to assume.

Legault thing sounds reasonable; I'll have to check.

This is not the affair of a foreign lordling, sounds like interfering to me.

As for Duessel, Evayle, and Elincia. Again, I'm going to get somewhat stereotypical here. Elincia and Evayle are women. Women are known to be more opposed to violence. Also, Elincia has been sheltered her whole life so she's never seen any battle. Duessel is much like Oswin in that he's a veteran soldier but doesn't like to fight, so he's an exception.

Actions speak louder than words. According to Hector, the soldier was just standing there, and there's no evidence of him doing anything else.

Elincia sees battle in the end of FE9 and in Part II of FE10. Eyvel is a warrior; there's no reason she would spontaneously manifest views of not wanting to kill in a dangerous battle situation in a society with no such views. Oswin and Duessel, being knights, would also not manifest such views. Life is valued in FE, and I have yet to see anything from you to make your argument work with that in mind.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Othin

[Acacia Sgt]

When we started looking at supports, the first thing we found was another plothole - an oath apparently taken by Lycian lords to defend each others' territories, which is apparently ignored in the story.

Not exactly, why else would Lundgren call for help back in Ch8? Lyn is, for all intents and purposes, 'invading' Caelin after all. It's not like everybody was aware at the time that Haussen is actually being poisoned or that Lyn truly is his granddaughter. Some only had the suspicious of, and of the one who did knew, well, they were mostly from Caelin, and hence still an internal fact.

[General Banzai]

I'm glad to whomever brought MatthewxLegault to my attention because it does seem to explain the issues with Legault. Except for how he doesn't know where either of the Black Fang's bases are.

[Othin]

Not exactly, why else would Lundgren call for help back in Ch8? Lyn is, for all intents and purposes, 'invading' Caelin after all. It's not like everybody was aware at the time that Haussen is actually being poisoned or that Lyn truly is his granddaughter. Some only had the suspicious of, and of the one who did knew, well, they were mostly from Caelin, and hence still an internal fact.

Lyn came to Caelin to see her grandfather, and defended herself from soldiers attacking her. It's difficult to see how that could be seen as invading.

What would more logically cause the pact to be invoked would be Lundgren attacking Marquess Araphen's castle to find Lyn, or a whole ton of actions in Ch12-17.

---

Regarding the matter of Legault I was discussing with bottlegnomes: Reading the supports, Legault being feared as the Hurricane seems to be justified, and his reputation as "second in ability to none but the Four Fangs", while inaccurate, could reasonably grow out of that. It also helps to explain other matters, as Banzai noted, so we'll withdraw those arguments.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Othin