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QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND


General Banzai
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Doesn't need to be successful. Read my other posts on Laus vs Ostia.

It works for Ephidel, but I'm not sure how likely Darin would be to comply (he seems to recognize he can't defeat Ostia head-on).

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Doesn't need to be successful. Read my other posts on Laus vs Ostia.

It won't matter if Ephidel can't talk Darin into it. Darin has the spine of a jellyfish. Forcing him to do something that ridiculous would be downright unbelievable.

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It won't matter if Ephidel can't talk Darin into it. Darin has the spine of a jellyfish. Forcing him to do something that ridiculous would be downright unbelievable.

Attacking Ostia really isn't any less sane than attacking Caelin, from his perspective, in that situation. Attacking Caelin would soon ruin him just as he would be immediately ruined if he had attacked Ostia. Either way, Ephidel would need complete control to the exclusion of reason, so there's no reason he could force him to do one and not the other.

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Attacking Ostia really isn't any less sane than attacking Caelin, from his perspective, in that situation. Attacking Caelin would soon ruin him just as he would be immediately ruined if he had attacked Ostia. Either way, Ephidel would need complete control to the exclusion of reason, so there's no reason he could force him to do one and not the other.

Caelin is a smaller territory, versus Ostia, which is well-fortified. Unless you fell asleep in basic military strategy, attacking Caelin yields a better chance of winning than Ostia.

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13x takes place in Caelin. This means Caelin is in between Laus and Pherae. Since Pherae is east of Laus, then Caelin is also east of Laus. Meanwhile, Valor is west of Laus.

Badon, our only known port to Valor, is South East of Laus. As far as it goes, Caelin is still out of the way (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ogFsndBxEY, skip to 9 seconds in for a reference point, just the first video I found), but not nearly as bad as it's being made out to be. Still a detour though, so they'd probably need an alternative reason. Amassing forces for a larger rebellion, that engulfs more territories in Lycia>Suicide mission on Ostia, in terms of how much quintessence you could gather.

Totally minor point, but the quote where Hector is unaware if it's an enemy or not, he was off screen at the time with Lyn, and comes back to see Eliwood talking to that random guy.

I also completely agree with Camtech on Haussen, we can't really conclude either way where he stood.

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Dunno bout Ch 4, but he sends a General (Dakova) at you in Ch. 5, and Petrine after you in the chapters after that. Not quite random mooks.

Actions, not words, remember? Dakova is a Level 13 Knight, surely not good enough to be a general, just like a level 12 thief isn't good enough to be second only to the Four Fangs. It's absurd! Ridiculous! A Level 18 Shaman sounds like trying harder than a Level 13 Knight, don't you agree? I get the impression Nergal was trying harder, y'know, since actions speak louder than words.

But of course, this isn't the same, right? We aren't explicitly told Zoldam is a bigshot, therefore he's not. But of course, saying he's a bigshot doesn't count, since the gameplay doesn't back it up (see: Legault), y'know?

Explained in-game. Daein doesn't have the military might to contest Begnion and doesn't want to piss them off. This is why Norris and his soldiers all dress up like random pirates. In fact, Norris was disobeying orders when he chased Ike and friends anyways.

It takes 2 months to get to Begnion by boat, they could have easily caught up within a week or so and stopped them (Jill caught up with them when they were around Goldoa). Hell, Norris somehow got *ahead* of them.

Narshen leaves before Roy attacks. He goes to Ostia, because that's where he thinks Roy is going. This is said in-game.

No, Narshen only says to close down the road to Ostia because Roy *might* pass by there.

And Narshen isn't at Ostia either. In fact, the only mention of him in those two chapters is that... he went back to Bern. Yeah, Roy is obviously in Bern.

Zephiel, Narshen, and Idoun are also in Ch. 3 up until Turn 3 and just leave.

Valter's motivation is to prolong the war--and the pleasure he derives from murder--as long as possible. Killing Eirika right away is antithetical to his goals. This is also why later in the game he orders Selena away in Ch 10 Ephraim and lets Eirika escape again in Ch 10 Eirika.

Valter is characterized as killing retreating men. This directly contradicts this idea.

Never played FE4

Then what gives you the right to make claims such as "As I was saying, this all serves to show that the Fire Emblems which were made after Kaga's departure from the series were geared towards children, more so than previous entries in the series. Fire Emblem 7, I feel, was geared towards children even more than Fire Emblem 6 was, perhaps influenced by the series's move to America."

This is a problem in Thracia too. But the real issue with Thracia is how little Veld actually does in the plot.

See above quote, only now it's more of a contradiction of what you said ("the plot was dumbed down!").

Micaiah surrenders. Jarod kills a lot of people who are standing up to him, but never in the game fights anyone who refuses to fight him. In fact several statements later in the game refer to Jarod as being "a scoundrel and a fiend... but having a soldier's honesty.

You're talking about the guy that killed one of his own underlings in his very first appearance because the guy wasn't chasing after the DB.

Yeah, I guess killing your own allies that aren't fighting back is okay, but killing your biggest concern isn't. Hell, the least he could have done was taken her to a more secure place, rather than lock her up in a prison with a bunch of sympathizers in a jail where one of the guards is a Daein citizen.

Maraj states that Ludveck doesn't know Maraj is there. In fact, Ludveck doesn't realize Lucia is out to get him until afterwards. Maraj explains that Ludveck trust Lucia, but he (Maraj) does not, and that is why Maraj attacks.

Maraj, Ludveck, same difference. Heck, let's go with another question: Why didn't Maraj go send a messenger to tell Ludveck "Hey Lucia is slaughtering our men here" as soon as the fight started?

What, again Zelgius?

wat

Dunno lol

Shit man you're good at this arguing thing.

We didn't find that to be relevant. No game in the series is without its errors, but in FE7's case, those errors are especially bad.

This does not help refute the "OP and his bff are butthurt fanboys cherrypicking points" argument.

In Ch4, they didn't know Elincia's exact location; the generals may have been elsewhere. Shortly afterward, Petrine and the Black Knight indeed start pursuing you, and reasons are given why they do not enter combat with your troops - reasons that have already been discussed here.

The were Crimean Imperial Guard (there is talk of a battle having taken place there before), meaning there was royalty there, and the goal was to eliminate the royalty.

The Black Knight had ordered the soldiers not to pursue them, and his order to do so came from Sephiran, who didn't have any reason to want Daein to capture Elincia.

Then why try to stop them at all? The BK comes out and joins the battle, but they get on the boat and suddenly it's too much effort? Sephiran wanted a war to embroil the continent, why would he let there even be a chance that Ike and friends don't get to Begnion?

See Banzai's post; seems that was one of the things he answered better than I could while I was typing this up.

Because he's Valter. Like the Black Knight, he's a traitor to the enemy country and follows his own agenda.

Valter: Heh heh... Stupid woman. If Grado wins too easily, there'll be no more bloodshed. We must do what we can to extend the fun... I believe it's time for me to return to my darling Eirika. It wouldn't do for Glen to arrive before me, would it? Take care of things here before I return to you. Understood?

If Valter wants to make wars last as long as possible for more bloodshed, why did Duessel say he killed everyone, including retreating men?

Duessel: Yes... ...We were in the middle of a battle. Valter had broken his lance, and when I wasn't looking he somehow took this one. From that moment, he was changed... He killed everyone--even retreating men.

Hell, if that was his intention, why attack Seth in the first place?

Ignoring this, there's also the argument that a villain who is evil for the sake of evil ("He used to be a good guy but went insane!!!") is the worst and most unoriginal plot device, giving us a villain with no motivation as no one would realistically follow someone this clearly batshit insane. It's saturday morning cartoon tier, he's evil because he's evil, and he has no motivation behind that.

Initially, Celice was not a real threat to the Empire, who had control over every continent. There were many bigger concerns they could have plausibly had, and FE5 taking place at the time is one of them.

Yeah, and they didn't do shit about Thracia/Lenster either. The entirety of FE5's villains are Thracia regulars, and we are given no indication in the game that they have bigger concerns--there are no mentions of an Agustria, Verdane, etc. uprising. In fact, Julia getting away should be their #1 concern considering Narga is the only thing that can realistically stop them, and Manfroy takes 4 chapters to come back and kidnap her (and then doesn't even kill her for... no good reason), when it's pretty obviously no effort for him. And where is Julia this whole time?... With Celice, ofc.

Past that point, by the time it starts to get into Chapter 7, Celice's group quickly gets a hold of several Holy weapons, and therefore could not be defeated easily. They could even pose a threat to Julius - in Ch10, not having Awareness or a castle protecting him, he can reasonably be defeated; he wouldn't want to risk taking a crit from Aless' Mistoltin when he has other people to send, with Holy weapons of their own. Bear in mind that every chapter from 7 on in Gen 2 has at least one boss with a Holy weapon anyway.

If Julius can effortlessly teleport himself and others across the continent, why doesn't he just teleport himself and Arion in to help Ishtar BEFORE she gets her ass kicked? Sure, Julius might not be able to solo your team, but surely him and the Lopt Sect can do something about it. But no--the Lopt Sect doesn't give a shit about you even though you're tearing down their empire one castle at a time.

And if Julius gets defeated in Ch. 10, does he think the fact that you don't need Narga to hurt him is at all a problem? No, he doesn't, and is still content to throw random mooks at you.

Apparently that's not how swords in video games work, a necessary mechanic to a game of this style that could not be avoided by any reasonable amount of story improvement - this, unlike the issues we discuss here, is gameplay and story segregation at its barest minimum.

This is pure, 100% story. It's the CG cutscene (The Crossing, I think is the name) before 3-3 with Zelgius and Ranulf's duel.

Because FE6 has some plot issues too, unless someone has a better explanation.

GAMES OTHER THAN FE7 HAVE PLOT ISSUES? SHOCKING.

Garcia hasn't fought in a long time.

Seth: Sir Garcia. Your fighting form remains impeccable, despite your years of retirement. Fantastic... How I admire you.

Exact quote?

Seth: ...Yes, that's right. And you are Cormag, the renowned wyvern rider of Grado.

Cormag: If the legendary Silver Knight knows my name, I can't be doing too bad, huh?

Seth: You and your brother, Glen, are famous even among the Knights of Renais. We have no wyvern riders in Renais, and your stories are favorites among the men. I've been watching your combat style since you joined our forces.

Hey, if Cormag is so famous, why is he only a low level Wyvern Rider?

Duessel: Yes, Cormag. It's a magic weapon of dark design that's been in my family for ages. Legend states that the leader of our house must always carry it, but never use it. We are prohibited from wielding it until such a time as madness itself rules the day. It's part of my legacy, and yet...I... I made a grave error... I allowed Valter to use this lance.

legend

noun

a nonhistorical or unverifiable story handed down by tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical.

Nice work, Duessel. You ruined a man's life (and by extension that of many others) because of a story that you can't verify the accuracy of.

Specifics? We aren't doing to dig through to find the evidence you claim is there to support your side; as I said to others earlier, that's your responsibility. When we started looking at supports, the first thing we found was another plothole - an oath apparently taken by Lycian lords to defend each others' territories, which is apparently ignored in the story.

Actually, chucklefuck, the burden of proof is on you. Saying "X sucks, prove me wrong" does not make for good discussions. Thus, the person challenging the accepted conclusion (in this case, that Kishuna is not explained) is you. In order to prove Kishuna is a bad character, you have to disprove the supports, and the fact that you do not understand why people think Kishuna is interesting only shows your own ignorance on the subject. So why should I talk to you?

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Here's the Elibe map, maybe this will help a bit on the "why did he invade Caelin" thing. or maybe not

715px-Elibe_Map.jpg

1. Valor is not west of Laus, and is instead directly south of it.

2. Caelin (which I'm assuming is Ciaran in this map) is the first territory directly opposite of Ostia, meaning if Darin was looking to invade somewhere to make a new base, Caelin is probably the quickest and best solution.

3. Laus invading Ostia instead would indeed work best for Ephidel's plans, however Darin wouldn't be stupid enough to do it, no matter HOW spineless he is. He isn't suicidal.

AND IF WE GO AHEAD AND ASSUME THINGS WITH NO PROOF WHATSOEVER: Darin was nowhere to be found near Caelin, and instead had his troops stationed there after invading. Because of this, it's possible that invading Caelin altogether was just a distraction to throw Eliwood off his back a little longer. Why pick Caelin? Because of #2^ and I'm sure it's common knowledge that Eliwood and Lyn are acquaintances (due to Eliwood informing all other Lycian marquesses to back off of the inheritance dispute. Knowing this, I'm sure Darin would be convinced that Eliwood would waste some time helping Lyn out.

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Just going to point out that Uther says likely/they believe he will attack if he sees a crack in Lycia's defence. This was based on reports that Desmond was acting strangely. They never said he will, they believe he will, its just standard Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.

Frankly "We have reports that Bern is acting strangely but I reckon its just Desmond trying to have his son assassinated, sorted now who's up for a cuppa?" Would have a far more damaging effect to the plot then Bern not invading just because Uther was worried they would do.

@Nino being a scapegoat. What would cause more death and in turn more quintessence, plunging Bern into anarchy or a continent-wide war?

As far as invading Caelin over Ostia goes, the remnants of the Laus army would get wiped out if they tried to attack to Ostia. If they pulled off the invasion of Caelin then there would be time for the other territories supporting a rebellion to mobilise their troops. "Everywhere I look Laus is preparing for war" The cause of the Second war of Italian independence provides a decent example as well.

Also there is one obvious theory which nobody has mentioned yet, maybe they're all a bunch of silly-billys. Best plot idea ever

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Actions, not words, remember? Dakova is a Level 13 Knight, surely not good enough to be a general, just like a level 12 thief isn't good enough to be second only to the Four Fangs. It's absurd! Ridiculous! A Level 18 Shaman sounds like trying harder than a Level 13 Knight, don't you agree? I get the impression Nergal was trying harder, y'know, since actions speak louder than words.

But of course, this isn't the same, right? We aren't explicitly told Zoldam is a bigshot, therefore he's not. But of course, saying he's a bigshot doesn't count, since the gameplay doesn't back it up (see: Legault), y'know?

He doesn't even know where the freakin' base is. Anyone who knows anything about tracking would go to the last place where you knew something was, and follow the trail. A move in a base wouldn't be subtle. They'd probably have to move tables, scrolls, and not to mention money and treasures.

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Okay so you guys first spend all this time trying to convince me how Ephidel has Darin in his pocket completely (something I already knew, mind you) and now you're trying to tell me that Ephidel would be incapable of convincing Darin of attacking Ostia?

Actions, not words, remember? Dakova is a Level 13 Knight, surely not good enough to be a general, just like a level 12 thief isn't good enough to be second only to the Four Fangs. It's absurd! Ridiculous! A Level 18 Shaman sounds like trying harder than a Level 13 Knight, don't you agree? I get the impression Nergal was trying harder, y'know, since actions speak louder than words.

But of course, this isn't the same, right? We aren't explicitly told Zoldam is a bigshot, therefore he's not. But of course, saying he's a bigshot doesn't count, since the gameplay doesn't back it up (see: Legault), y'know?

Daein Soldier 2

General Dakova's gone...We're being beaten...We...We don't stand a chance. Retreat! Quickly now, retreat!

I mean not only does this soldier explicitly refer to him as a general but it also seems like he's so good that they're entirely helpless without him.

It takes 2 months to get to Begnion by boat, they could have easily caught up within a week or so and stopped them (Jill caught up with them when they were around Goldoa). Hell, Norris somehow got *ahead* of them.

Norris

M-my lord Black Knight! A ship is departing If we ready our own ship and set sail without delay, we can overtake it immediately!

Black Knight

...

Sephiran

Listen to me, Daein general. You will withdraw from this place. I will not allow you to pursue that ship.

Norris

Who are you supposed to be,fool? You've no idea who you're speaking to, do you?

Black Knight

Gather your men....Withdraw.

Norris

Y-yet we--

Black Knight

I will not repeat myself. Do it now.

Norris

Yes...yes, at once!

No, Narshen only says to close down the road to Ostia because Roy *might* pass by there.

And Narshen isn't at Ostia either. In fact, the only mention of him in those two chapters is that... he went back to Bern. Yeah, Roy is obviously in Bern.

Zephiel, Narshen, and Idoun are also in Ch. 3 up until Turn 3 and just leave.

Narshen's also characterized throughout the story as a coward and an incompetent, and also as someone who doesn't like to get his own hands dirty.

Valter is characterized as killing retreating men. This directly contradicts this idea.

Iunno killing retreating men seems like just the thing that would enrage the enemy into attacking more

Ignoring this, there's also the argument that a villain who is evil for the sake of evil ("He used to be a good guy but went insane!!!") is the worst and most unoriginal plot device, giving us a villain with no motivation as no one would realistically follow someone this clearly batshit insane. It's saturday morning cartoon tier, he's evil because he's evil, and he has no motivation behind that.

Wow, really? There are plenty of villains who are convincing and interesting and yet insane. Kefka, for instance. The Joker from the Dark Knight, for another. The villain of John Steinbeck's much-applauded East of Eden is insane. The villain of Cormac McCarthy's Blood Meridian is insane. The villain of Henrik Ibsen's Hedda Gabler is insane. Not to say every villain who is insane is automatically a good villain; but there's something to say for strong writing and convincing dialogue. Valter, by the way, has some excellent writing, and if you want I'll pull out over 9000 Valter quotes which really indicate this.

As I said earlier, I really enjoyed Sonia's writing and character. I mean I could step back and say "Oh, she's just a soulless puppet who unquestioningly does everything Nergal tells her to" and decide that that's not fodder for a very interesting villain, but what really makes her awesome is the cruelty and ruthlessness of her speech and the excellent writing of her dialogue.

Then why try to stop them at all? The BK comes out and joins the battle, but they get on the boat and suddenly it's too much effort? Sephiran wanted a war to embroil the continent, why would he let there even be a chance that Ike and friends don't get to Begnion?

Typically the Black Knight just stands around on the map unless something moves into his range. Even in hard mode he doesn't move to the full extent of his movement. So he's obviously not trying very hard.

GAMES OTHER THAN FE7 HAVE PLOT ISSUES? SHOCKING.

When did we ever imply this was the case? We simply said that FE7 has far MORE plot issues than most Fire Emblems.

Actually, chucklefuck, the burden of proof is on you. Saying "X sucks, prove me wrong" does not make for good discussions. Thus, the person challenging the accepted conclusion (in this case, that Kishuna is not explained) is you. In order to prove Kishuna is a bad character, you have to disprove the supports, and the fact that you do not understand why people think Kishuna is interesting only shows your own ignorance on the subject. So why should I talk to you?

You mean Renault's supports? The one where he refers to a friend Nergal transformed into a morph but where there's absolutely no indication that morph was Kishuna?

legend

noun

a nonhistorical or unverifiable story handed down by tradition from earlier times and popularly accepted as historical.

Nice work, Duessel. You ruined a man's life (and by extension that of many others) because of a story that you can't verify the accuracy of.

Good thing Duessel has Webster's Dictionary to go and look up these pesky words. Not to mention there's nothing anywhere to indicate that Duessel is a man who relies solely on facts and accurate information to make decisions. Not to mention he does feel great regret for his mistake anyways. Also you conveniently only posted half of the quote which explains why Duessel had the lance to begin with. Let me post the whole thing.

Duessel: Yes, Cormag. It's a magic weapon of dark design that's been in my family for ages. Legend states that the leader of our house must always carry it, but never use it. We are prohibited from wielding it until such a time as madness itself rules the day. It's part of my legacy, and yet...I... I made a grave error... I allowed Valter to use this lance.

Hmm. "We are prohibited from wielding it until such a time as madness itself rules the day." So he's not just carrying it around for no reason; there may actually be a time where he needs to use it. "It's part of my legacy." So it's due to tradition that he carries it as well.

This is pure, 100% story. It's the CG cutscene (The Crossing, I think is the name) before 3-3 with Zelgius and Ranulf's duel.

The cutscene ends before we see the sword strike Ranulf.

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Actually, chucklefuck, the burden of proof is on you. Saying "X sucks, prove me wrong" does not make for good discussions. Thus, the person challenging the accepted conclusion (in this case, that Kishuna is not explained) is you. In order to prove Kishuna is a bad character, you have to disprove the supports, and the fact that you do not understand why people think Kishuna is interesting only shows your own ignorance on the subject. So why should I talk to you?

Prosecutor: Here are pages 220-225 of this 880-page report, which show that the defendant was holding his gun at the time the murder occurred, and here are pages 623-631, which show that the gun used to kill the victim was the defendant's gun.

Defense Attorney: Objection! Your Honor, I read that report too, and there's a page in there that disproves all that. Clearly the prosecution hasn't read the report thoroughly enough. But I'm not going to tell you what page says it or even what the page says; that's the prosecutor's responsibility.

It doesn't work that way.

That said, I used Ctrl+F to check all the supports in FE7; the name "Kishuna" does not appear a single time in any of them. I then actually read each of Renault's supports, since they seemed like the most relevant, and like with the previous times I had read his supports, I found nothing to indicate that the Morph his friend was turned into was Kishuna - in fact, it does not seem plausible, based on the circumstances of Kishuna's creation shown in the flashback in Genesis and what Renault says about the matter.

Now, are you interested in contributing anything to this discussion? If so, follow bottlegnomes' example; through remaining calm, rational, and nonconfrontational, and backing up his arguments with quotes from FE7, he's managed to point out and prove two oversights made by Banzai and I. If you're only intent on making me waste my time, I have more important things to spend it on.

Edited by Othin
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I'm not going to go restate the entire argument along with all the evidence to why Kishuna might be Renault's friend, but there was a topic here that made it fairly believable.

EDIT: Um. Okay, I think it was deleted by the rollback (and that I'm fairly sure of, since it was one of the first topics Lux Aeterna ever posted. This topic goes over a few of the larger points, I could attempt to recreate Lux's wallotext if you want.

Edited by CT075
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I'm not going to go restate the entire argument along with all the evidence to why Kishuna might be Renault's friend, but there was a topic here that made it fairly believable.

EDIT: Um. Okay, I think it was deleted by the rollback (and that I'm fairly sure of, since it was one of the first topics Lux Aeterna ever posted. This topic goes over a few of the larger points, I could attempt to recreate Lux's wallotext if you want.

Reading through it, it appears to just be a lot of speculation, no compelling evidence. Even if the evidence was there, it wouldn't make the supports make Kishuna interesting or relevant to anyone besides Renault, but I don't know if you're arguing that anyway. And the connection really isn't plausible anyway.

Renault: ...Nergal, do you remember me?

Nergal: Hah. You are... Renault. So you're still eeking out a wretched existence?

Renault: I went astray. I listened to your honeyed words... I dreamt of the impossible... the return of a lost soul. But...what you gave me was... a puppet... It was soulless...nothing more than an empty vessel!!

Nergal: Just an empty vessel... Isn't that what you wanted? You desired to bring back your dead friend. You were my experiment, and I completed my morph. I'm grateful, Renault. Thanks to you, I gained power.

Renault: You villain... You cursed him! Your crime can never be forgiven! I will end you with my hands. In the name of my lost friend!

Nergal: ...I name you Kishuna. You are the only morph to whom I've given emotions. It won't suffice simply to refer to you as a number. It is said man was sculpted by the hands of the gods. If so, then you, who were sculpted by these, my hands... And I, whose labors gave you breath and life... What are we, then? What does that make us? In your fabricated heart, which I gave unto you, what is it that you believe, Kishuna?

These don't seem like they could be describing the same event - the lack of any implication to "give" Kishuna to Renault, lack of implication of Renault's current or past presence or involvement whatsoever, and strong implications that Kishuna was created from scratch explaining why Nergal would name him and consider the event so extraordinary in the first place compared to his other works, as well as the statements that Kishuna has emotions, which it appears the morph of Renault's friend did not.

---

Hector: I don't expect you to understand. You've forgotten what it means to be human! Nergal! My connection to you... it's over! I'm finishing everything up right here!!

What connection?

Eliwood: Nergal!

Nergal: So you're here, Eliwood. I thought losing Ninian might distract you. Have you forgotten her so quickly? How heartless.

Eliwood: I haven't forgotten. I'll never forget. It was my mistake that killed Ninian. Because of that... I will fight. I will not run away and hide in sorrow... I'm going to put an end to all of this!

So did he want Eliwood to come or not?

Legault: Hello... Linus.

Linus: Legault!? You... You disloyal filth! You of all people...siding with them!?

Legault: Calm down. Your brother's murder... It wasn't by our hands... Hey!!

Linus: Draw your sword. I won't miss again.

Legault: Remember how good the old days were? Your father, old Jan, Uhai, you, and me and your brother. When did the Black Fang lose its honor?

Linus: Be quiet!!! Stop your pathetic whimpering and fight!!

Legault: I knew this would happen. Nothing's going to change. I knew it, and yet here I am. I couldn't leave well enough alone... I'm a fool.

So Legault was important after all?

Jaffar: Here I come.

Sonia: Ingrate! You owe your life to Lord Nergal! You and that girl, you're nothing but filth! But it matters not, as long as your essence remains intact. No other part of you now has any value.

"Here I come"?

Heath: You first! Why are you working with the Black Fang? We swore to serve only House Bern...

Vaida: I don't see anyone from the royal family around, do you?

Well that really lends credibility to her statements of being loyal to Bern.

Eliwood: ...Black Fang?

Oleg: I bring an invitation from my master, Nergal. "Return the children to me." Seems foolish to deliver the message... After all, I can take them both myself and go now!

Eliwood: You'll never take them!!

...Why even say that?

Wire: The Ostian spy. Why did you return?

Matthew: I've known you were here for some time. I also knew you were after Lord Hector, not me. You're all professional assassins. You wait for your chance, and you don't miss it. You were waiting for me to leave Lord Hector alone. That's when you were planning to attack, right?

Wire: Ah... So that's why you came back, is it? I was sure you'd gone back to play with the guards.

Matthew: If I had, I would've taken Lord Hector with me. No matter what it took.

Wire: Cheeky fellow, aren't you? But you're out of your league.

Matthew: How so?

Wire: You think to challenge me? Prepare to die, you witless fool!

Matthew: Ghaa...

...Seriously?

Edited by Othin
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Prosecutor: Here are pages 220-225 of this 880-page report, which show that the defendant was holding his gun at the time the murder occurred, and here are pages 623-631, which show that the gun used to kill the victim was the defendant's gun.

Defense Attorney: Objection! Your Honor, I read that report too, and there's a page in there that disproves all that. Clearly the prosecution hasn't read the report thoroughly enough. But I'm not going to tell you what page says it or even what the page says; that's the prosecutor's responsibility.

It doesn't work that way.

How the bloody hell can you complain about the logical leaps needed if you make an analogy like this? Paper was talking about something which is subjective your hypothetical is talking about something which is objective. Now I'm not opposed to using analogies to help prove a point but for the desired effect they need to remain fairly relevant to the context.

That said, I used Ctrl+F to check all the supports in FE7; the name "Kishuna" does not appear a single time in any of them. I then actually read each of Renault's supports, since they seemed like the most relevant, and like with the previous times I had read his supports, I found nothing to indicate that the Morph his friend was turned into was Kishuna - in fact, it does not seem plausible, based on the circumstances of Kishuna's creation shown in the flashback in Genesis and what Renault says about the matter.

What is this? How dare they not spoon feed me the answers, I can't make these assertions all by myself I am just a child why aren't they making this series childish enough for me to understand.

Now, are you interested in contributing anything to this discussion? If so, follow bottlegnomes' example; through remaining calm, rational, and nonconfrontational, and backing up his arguments with quotes from FE7, he's managed to point out and prove two oversights made by Banzai and I.

potkettle.png

If you're only intent on making me waste my time, I have more important things to spend it on.

You're arguing/debating a game's story on the internet.

Also with the Legualt thing is it that unreasonable to assume that

A) Due to the illegal nature of an assassins' guild they won't be able to remain in the same base if they want to avoid brushes with the law.

B) As Legault says when he appears he is intent on severing all ties with the Black Fang he's not going to be trying to find out where the next relocation will be to.

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Hector: I don't expect you to understand. You've forgotten what it means to be human! Nergal! My connection to you... it's over! I'm finishing everything up right here!!

What connection?

They've been fighting Nergal for a long time by this point, being one's enemy is a connection.

Eliwood: Nergal!

Nergal: So you're here, Eliwood. I thought losing Ninian might distract you. Have you forgotten her so quickly? How heartless.

Eliwood: I haven't forgotten. I'll never forget. It was my mistake that killed Ninian. Because of that... I will fight. I will not run away and hide in sorrow... I'm going to put an end to all of this!

So did he want Eliwood to come or not?

I think it's pretty clear Nergal wanted Eliwood to come, he's just taunting him over Ninian's death here.

Legault: Hello... Linus.

Linus: Legault!? You... You disloyal filth! You of all people...siding with them!?

Legault: Calm down. Your brother's murder... It wasn't by our hands... Hey!!

Linus: Draw your sword. I won't miss again.

Legault: Remember how good the old days were? Your father, old Jan, Uhai, you, and me and your brother. When did the Black Fang lose its honor?

Linus: Be quiet!!! Stop your pathetic whimpering and fight!!

Legault: I knew this would happen. Nothing's going to change. I knew it, and yet here I am. I couldn't leave well enough alone... I'm a fool.

So Legault was important after all?

Who was arguing that Legault wasn't important? The 'second only in power to the Four Fangs' thing was misleading, but this was dealt with in supports (Legault killed people in their sleep not face to face etc.)

Jaffar: Here I come.

Sonia: Ingrate! You owe your life to Lord Nergal! You and that girl, you're nothing but filth! But it matters not, as long as your essence remains intact. No other part of you now has any value.

"Here I come"?

Jaffar's awkward social upbringing (heartless killer) gives him very basic speech patterns. It would seem somewhat OOC for him to go "How dare you do such terrible things to Nino! For good and righteousness!" like Eliwood or whoever. It fits Jaffar.

Heath: You first! Why are you working with the Black Fang? We swore to serve only House Bern...

Vaida: I don't see anyone from the royal family around, do you?

Well that really lends credibility to her statements of being loyal to Bern.

She's loyal to Zephiel, not the rest of the royal family. But being branded a traitor means she can't work for him directly like Murdock.

Eliwood: ...Black Fang?

Oleg: I bring an invitation from my master, Nergal. "Return the children to me." Seems foolish to deliver the message... After all, I can take them both myself and go now!

Eliwood: You'll never take them!!

...Why even say that?

Yeah this boss conversation isn't so good.

Wire: The Ostian spy. Why did you return?

Matthew: I've known you were here for some time. I also knew you were after Lord Hector, not me. You're all professional assassins. You wait for your chance, and you don't miss it. You were waiting for me to leave Lord Hector alone. That's when you were planning to attack, right?

Wire: Ah... So that's why you came back, is it? I was sure you'd gone back to play with the guards.

Matthew: If I had, I would've taken Lord Hector with me. No matter what it took.

Wire: Cheeky fellow, aren't you? But you're out of your league.

Matthew: How so?

Wire: You think to challenge me? Prepare to die, you witless fool!

Matthew: Ghaa...

...Seriously?

Could you elaborate on the problem here? Matthew not wanting to leave Hector alone with the assassins makes sense to me.

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They've been fighting Nergal for a long time by this point, being one's enemy is a connection.

Perhaps... Killing an enemy seems like a rather odd thing to describe as stopping them being your enemy, but alright.

I think it's pretty clear Nergal wanted Eliwood to come, he's just taunting him over Ninian's death here.

That works.

Who was arguing that Legault wasn't important? The 'second only in power to the Four Fangs' thing was misleading, but this was dealt with in supports (Legault killed people in their sleep not face to face etc.)

Perhaps I worded that poorly. I was the one who said that the "second in ability to none but the Four Fangs" was a mistake from the soldier he talked to as the only good explanation for his being weak, but that quote seems to indicate that it was closer to the truth.

Jaffar's awkward social upbringing (heartless killer) gives him very basic speech patterns. It would seem somewhat OOC for him to go "How dare you do such terrible things to Nino! For good and righteousness!" like Eliwood or whoever. It fits Jaffar.

Basic speech patterns fit Jaffar, but I'd expect to see him say something like ".....", "Sonia.", "Die." or some combination of the three. "Here I come", on the other hand, focuses on Jaffar rather than Sonia, when Jaffar doesn't care about himself, and also is more along the lines of a battle cry like "Prepare yourself!", something that would be said by a knight or someone with a similar view of honor, etc., not an assassin.

She's loyal to Zephiel, not the rest of the royal family. But being branded a traitor means she can't work for him directly like Murdock.

Huh? I don't know of anything to indicate that either of those things are true, and furthermore, they don't seem relevant.

Could you elaborate on the problem here? Matthew not wanting to leave Hector alone with the assassins makes sense to me.

It confirms that the assassins were after Hector, which as was gone over earlier, has really no point and would mean that they somehow knew that he was going that way, which shouldn't have been possible. Perhaps more significantly, it brings up the new points that Matthew knew the assassins were there, somehow also knew that they were specifically after Hector, and yet didn't tell Hector or anyone else, even though Matthew was apparently worried about Hector enough to not want to leave him to go alone.

---

Most of these (except the last one) aren't anything too significant, but they certainly don't help FE7's story being convincing. Really just anything I happened to notice while checking for the Renault boss convo.

Edited by Othin
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My goodness, do you not know how manipulating people works? Get thee to the mafia subforum, so someone there can give you a first-hand demonstration for how it's done.

Okay so you guys first spend all this time trying to convince me how Ephidel has Darin in his pocket completely (something I already knew, mind you) and now you're trying to tell me that Ephidel would be incapable of convincing Darin of attacking Ostia?

No, that is not how it works. Try again.

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Basic speech patterns fit Jaffar, but I'd expect to see him say something like ".....", "Sonia.", "Die." or some combination of the three. "Here I come", on the other hand, focuses on Jaffar rather than Sonia, when Jaffar doesn't care about himself, and also is more along the lines of a battle cry like "Prepare yourself!", something that would be said by a knight or someone with a similar view of honor, etc., not an assassin.

The lack of the exclamation point is important here, "Prepare yourself!" is a knightly challenge "Here I come." is just a statement of fact, like all the other killings Jaffar's done. Your other options work as well, but I don't see a problem with how it was done.

Huh? I don't know of anything to indicate that either of those things are true, and furthermore, they don't seem relevant.

That's the reason Vaida joins the group in the first place, because they saved Zephiel. I don't have script for that point so I can't bring up the exact quote, but her A support with Harken covers the point well enough.

Harken: You... You were using Nergal to help you return to the Royal Wyvern Knights. You were willing to use any means necessary to return to your master... t the time, I had lost my master, and my will to live... Seeing your focus of mind... It was impressive.

Vaida: ...

Harken: Yet, I do not understand. How could you betray a lord to whom you were so faithful?

Vaida: Grr... Leave me be. Who swore fealty to any king? Not I! The lord to whom I swore... Was not that plain man, grasping at the coattails of power, but a man born with the presence and manner of a king. Should that man take the throne, a change of fortune would sure come to Bern.

Harken: You speak of Prince Zephiel...

It's relevant because you said her quote with Heath damages her credibility of being loyal to Bern. Vaida is loyal to Bern- she believes Zephiel is Bern's future, not Desmond or House Bern as a whole, it's an important part of her character.

Since we're on the topic of Vaida, I'd like to support when the game says Vaida and Sonia are not alike. Yes, Vaida is ruthless towards her enemies, but her support with Heath shows she cares about her unit/former unit, whereas Sonia views everyone as expendable.

It confirms that the assassins were after Hector, which as was gone over earlier, has really no point and would mean that they somehow knew that he was going that way, which shouldn't have been possible. Perhaps more significantly, it brings up the new points that Matthew knew the assassins were there, somehow also knew that they were specifically after Hector, and yet didn't tell Hector or anyone else, even though Matthew was apparently worried about Hector enough to not want to leave him to go alone.

I suppose Matthew may not have told the guards for fear that Hector would have tried to slip away from them (and thus being alone and easier for the assassins to kill), but I can't see a reason for him not telling Hector about the assassins and their appearance in general is confusing.

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I'm only going to address one thig now, and that's the Legault/Linus convo. I might address the rest later. That does nothing to show that Legault is either particularly important in the fan or particularly strong. It just shows that Linus and Legault were close, which is clear from a number of sources, and that Legault knew they'd have to fight Linus because they fought Lloyd.

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The lack of the exclamation point is important here, "Prepare yourself!" is a knightly challenge "Here I come." is just a statement of fact, like all the other killings Jaffar's done. Your other options work as well, but I don't see a problem with how it was done.

There's little other point in telling an opponent you're coming than to make them be ready. If he had something to say, it would be another matter. And again, Jaffar doesn't care about what he's doing; he only cares about Sonia dying.

That's the reason Vaida joins the group in the first place, because they saved Zephiel. I don't have script for that point so I can't bring up the exact quote, but her A support with Harken covers the point well enough.

Harken: You... You were using Nergal to help you return to the Royal Wyvern Knights. You were willing to use any means necessary to return to your master... t the time, I had lost my master, and my will to live... Seeing your focus of mind... It was impressive.

Vaida: ...

Harken: Yet, I do not understand. How could you betray a lord to whom you were so faithful?

Vaida: Grr... Leave me be. Who swore fealty to any king? Not I! The lord to whom I swore... Was not that plain man, grasping at the coattails of power, but a man born with the presence and manner of a king. Should that man take the throne, a change of fortune would sure come to Bern.

Harken: You speak of Prince Zephiel...

It's relevant because you said her quote with Heath damages her credibility of being loyal to Bern. Vaida is loyal to Bern- she believes Zephiel is Bern's future, not Desmond or House Bern as a whole, it's an important part of her character.

Since we're on the topic of Vaida, I'd like to support when the game says Vaida and Sonia are not alike. Yes, Vaida is ruthless towards her enemies, but her support with Heath shows she cares about her unit/former unit, whereas Sonia views everyone as expendable.

Ah, excellent find. However...

Vaida:

I'll not be called a dog by you, blackheart! True, we've a contract with the Black Fang, but… I am loyal to one master only! He who sits on the throne of Bern!

So is it who sits on the throne or who should sit on the throne?

I suppose Matthew may not have told the guards for fear that Hector would have tried to slip away from them (and thus being alone and easier for the assassins to kill), but I can't see a reason for him not telling Hector about the assassins and their appearance in general is confusing.

Hector would only be alone if he tried to slip away from Matthew and was successful, neither of which seems like it would be made too much more likely to happen by Matthew telling Hector about rather vital information. The whole chapter just doesn't make any sense.

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If everyone did things with the absolute best logic and foresight, it would be the world's worst story. I don't want a game full of Mary Sues. Life is random. People are random. If you think you can make a good story based off of what you think is a good story, post it in Creative. I'll be more than happy to critique it.

If nobody does anything with any logic or foresight, it would also be a terrible story. There's a difference between Mary Sue godmode predictability and competence with human error. And there's a bigger difference between these and absolute inexplicable incompetence. People are unpredictable, but that isn't an excuse for utter incompetence on the part of every single villain.

I don't know why people are getting so defensive. You can still enjoy something while acknowledging it's flawed. If you really object to this, don't try to justify the plot holes, because making the plot incoherent for the sake of gameplay is sloppy and lazy and in many situations could likely be avoided. Try to explain them, like others are doing.

Edited by Priscilla
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Vaida:

I'll not be called a dog by you, blackheart! True, we've a contract with the Black Fang, but… I am loyal to one master only! He who sits on the throne of Bern!

So is it who sits on the throne or who should sit on the throne?

Telling people, such as the Black Fang, who work for the king that you are loyal to the son that he wants to kill may not be the best of ideas.

Hector would only be alone if he tried to slip away from Matthew and was successful, neither of which seems like it would be made too much more likely to happen by Matthew telling Hector about rather vital information. The whole chapter just doesn't make any sense.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but, in this scene, Matthew and Hector are in a room, and after Matthew leaves Hector discovers the Black Fang member, who was also in the room. Supposedly, Matthew never leaves, but is hidden, and the assassin in the room was also hidden. If Matthew's goal was to draw the Black Fang out, (He says that "those assassins wouldn't show themselves until you were alone") telling Hector would alert the Black Fang as well, and would probably keep them from showing themselves.

Edit for grammarz.

Edited by Aethereal
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