QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[eclipse]

If everyone did things with the absolute best logic and foresight, it would be the world's worst story. I don't want a game full of Mary Sues. Life is random. People are random. If you think you can make a good story based off of what you think is a good story, post it in Creative. I'll be more than happy to critique it.

[General Banzai]

So should she just let them kill her companions and capture her? Or capture Florina, her friend?

I mean, the general dispute between Lyn and the Ganelons is silly to begin with. Not that once they start attacking her that she should just sit there. In fact, in order to make this point, you actually had to split my sentence in half and attack one half with the other, separately.

They travel towards Caelin. By your standards, nothing happens in the first book of Lord of the Rings, since all they are really doing is travelling towards Bree and then travelling towards Rivendell.

In the five or so chapters while Lyn travels to Caelin all that happens is that unending torrents of random, easily killable bandits attack and some characters join her team. For starters, these bandits are irrelevant to the main plot of even Lyn's Mode, which is that Lyn is fighting Lundgren. Had for those five chapters Lyn fought assassins that Lundgren sent the story would have been a tad better... not good, but better. Instead, you fight bandits. In Fellowship Frodo and friends are chased first by the Wringwraiths and then by the hordes of Sauron. I actually haven't read Fellowship in over 9000 years though so I'd rather you use some other example instead of a strawman argument that I can't exactly follow. I also haven't played FE4 so your arguments against FE4 aren't going to make sense to me either.

In the same way that a comedy cannot make every line a punchline, a dramatic story cannot make something dramatic happen in every chapter.

FESS certainly manages to do it. And there's a difference between not having something dramatic happening and boring the player. I guess if FE7 had ten consecutive chapters of bandit attacks you would just wave it off as "oh well something dramatic can't happen every chapter." Really, you're just making an excuse here. You're basically saying "a good story doesn't have to be consistently good". Lyn's Mode has six chapters of random bandit attacks. And you're just fine with this. Oh, there can't be something dramatic in every chapter. Or six chapters in a row.

Maybe these assassins are incompetent? Lundgren isn't commanding them directly.

This isn't a point in the plot's favor. Also, none of the characters in the game actually respond to the assassins as if they're incompetent. In fact, the assassins seem to inspire shock and fear in Lyn. Nobody laughs at them, or disregards them as a joke. Furthermore, the political ramifications of their actions are never discussed; in fact, completely ignored. That is the real problem.

Thieves never make sense, in any Fire Emblem. For example, if you take over a castle, you should be able to just take what's in the chests in your own time (rather than doing it mid-battle). Certainly, it's no more odd than having to steal treasures from your own castles in FE5.

Nothing to do with what I'm saying. I'm wondering why Matthew in particular, an Ostian spy, is watching Araphen and stealing its junk.

Yet he was dragged into their inheritance dispute. And then the woman asks him for help! He might very well be annoyed.

He ought to be more annoyed with Lundgren, who actually burnt his castle and had him kidnapped. And honestly, if the assassins were competent enough to get through Araphen's defenses and take over the castle in a matter of minutes, then they're competent enough to know what they're doing. They didn't kidnap Araphen just cuz they felt like it, there was obviously an order behind it. Next you're gonna tell me that Araphen's guard is incompetent. So yeah. Everything in this story is explained by everyone, from Nergal to Lyn to Sonia, being incompetent. Congratulations, you have proved my point.

But villains ALWAYS seem to do this, not just in Fire Emblem but almost every RPG out there. Why don't Veld and Leidrick just kill everyone in Chapter 5? Why don't they deploy their strongest troops to stop the escape?

I agree with Leidrick and Veld, but many Fire Emblems actually manage to avoid this trope, which I explain in the original post.

Maybe she thought that those troops would be sufficient for the job of killing a bunch of weaklings, and she had a job that was actually difficult to attend to.

As I said before, Ninian and Nils should be Nergal's top priority, as they are the most critical part of his plan (except at the end of the game where he doesn't need them anyways). There's nothing more important for Ursula to do. Maybe something more difficult, but nothing more important. Also, Ursula has absolutely no way of knowing the strength of the people accompanying Ninian, and thus has no way of knowing if beyard is skilled enough to stop them.

Sigurd never seems to have trouble with mowing down legions of soldiers that are tricked or forced. I don't think that most of the soldiers are forced to fight against their will though. If they really sympathised, they could switch sides, like Wallace did in the previous chapter.

You make an upbeat and cheerful attitude sound like some sort of debilitating illness. Maybe everyone should be assholes realists like in DoF?

Haven't played FE4. Furthermore, the problem is not that Lyn kills all these soldiers, but that she does so and afterwards smiles and cracks jokes and talks about listening to music. This is where the cheeriness is destructive to the story. A game where you are fighting wars, where life and death is in the balance, should not be upbeat and happy. There is a time and place for a cheerful mood; this is not one of them.

Fire Emblem 4 does not have a good plot. The entire second generation is "go kill super duper evil child murdering cultists". I haven't seen so much of FE5, but it is set in the same universe, so I wouldn't imagine that it's that different.

Haven't played FE4. And while FE5 certainly isn't a creative plot, it's at least coherent, something FE7 lacks a lot.

And don't forget that paedophilia, while you're at it! Sylvia is 14, Lachesis is 15, and Fin is 15 too!

There's awful art from the Shouzou Kaga days as well.

You missed the point. I'm not saying the FE6-FE7 art is bad; just more geared towards children. Also, not sure where you're going with the pedophilia; once again I have not played FE4.

Capturing actually made the game easier. Capturing is what makes taking Galzus' Master weapons in Chapter 6 possible.

Capturing Galzus in FE5 isn't easy. >.>

In addition, FE6 did not triple the hit bonus and penalty: it was only +/-15 in FE8. It's debatable whether the weapon triangle makes a difference in FE10: ultimately, I think it makes the game slightly harder since it weakens Axes (otherwise you'd just use Axes for almost everything... which is exactly what happens in HM). The weapon triangle encourages the player to use a greater variety of weapons, so I think it's a good thing.

In Thracia the weapon triangle gives +/-5 hit. It's +/-15 in FE6, which is triple. Also, it's debatable whether YOU think the weapon triangle makes a difference in FERD. But if the developers took it out of Hard Mode, they obviously thought the game would be harder without it.

Plus, there is some ridiculously broken shit they removed, such as infinite range staves, or ridiculously broken skills, or PCC that meant that certain characters could always critical on their second attack. Or easily abusable movement stars. FE5 had many ideas, but some of them were bad.

Infinite range staves are harder for you because the enemies have them more often than you do. The fact that you can abuse movement stars doesn't mean the game is easier; any game can be abused somehow. It'd be like saying abusing the RNG so everyone gains move every level up means that Thracia is easier than FE6. Also, you are once again missing the point. The point is not that FE6 is broken and Thracia is not; the point is that the strategic elements in FE6 are easier to comprehend for a child than those in Thracia. The weapon triangle is easier for a child to understand (it's rock paper scissors) than that there are stars which correspond to a random chance that your characters will move again.

Hector was emotional at the time: he had just seen his best friend's lover's corpse, which had been dumped in the woods near their location to "warn" them. It seems perfectly natural that he would be overcome with anger, and make statements that he would later go back on.

Hector's joking around in 19x, which takes place between finding Leila dead and his proclamation against the Black Fang.

How dare they distract us from the storyline with pointless gameplay!

Yes, why give us pointless gameplay? Why not think harder and meld the story and gameplay together, as they do in other Fire Emblems?

Maybe he hoped Serra would get killed.

Ha, ha.

I'd say something about feudalism and how Matthew is Hector's lord and master (and pretty gay for him as well), but I think the idea of sycophancy exists in all societies.

Pretty sure Matthew isn't just sucking up to Hector. Especially considering how Oswin and Serra don't applaud Hector's action.

I don't really see how that's murder, either. It's never specifically mentioned that the soldier is dead, so Hector might have just decked him.

Serra says what happened is gross, and Oswin can't condone resorting to force so quickly. I guess it's still implied that Hector killed the soldier, but the soldier's map sprite on the world map disappears, which typically what happens when someone dies.

It's almost like it's a clue to the player!

A not very subtle clue.

It's almost like it's an optional chapter!

That's not an excuse to make it suck. There's never an excuse to make any aspect of a story suck.

This is why Elbert was imprisoned, presumably:

Erik:

My father and yours argued vehemently that day. Marquess Pherae always distrusted Ephidel. He tried to convince my father to send Ephidel and the Black Fang assassins out of Lycia. My father would not be persuaded, and Marquess Pherae left the castle. As you know, he then disappeared. I doubt he's still alive.

Elbert doesn't seem to truly be against rebellion, the argument was about the Black Fang, who Elbert rightfully distrusts.

My theory is that it goes this way:

-Ephidel manipulates Darin into agreeing with his plans

-Darin asks Helman for help

-Helman asks Elbert if he would lend his support

-Elbert visits Darin and promises to support him, but distrusts Ephidel and the Black Fang

-Elbert then takes his troops to the Dread Isle to prepare for the rebellion (I think)

-Chapters 11-17 occur

-Elbert discovers Nergal's plots and turns against him. All of the Pherae Knights are killed, but Ninian and Nils escape. Harken somehow also survives and is assimilated into the Fang. Elbert is captured, but not executed: Nergal seems to have been expecting to get enough quintessence from Eliwood and Co.

Wrong. Ninian and Nils state in Chapter 21 that Elbert was imprisoned with them before he let them escape. They say he spent the days telling them stories about his homeland and Eliwood. So, you're wrong.

Crimea is in Tellius, silly billy! Have you seen what stats are like in Tellius? Crimea would mop the floor with Laus!

Ha, ha, it was a typo.

[General Banzai]

I don't really think that murder, betrayal, and rebellion is childish. I guess that for you who needs a steady diet of child-killing and incest and paedophilia to maintain his interest, it might seem so.

They're simple; easy for a child to understand. Murder has become infused into our media even in stories supposedly geared towards children. Even Mario, for instance, is supposedly killing Goombas. Children are exposed to murder in Pixar films. Just because there is murder in a story does not mean it is not childish.

Here's a theory that explains it: A rebellion in Lycia would produce lots of quintessence. At the beginning of Chapter 16, Hector mentions that Bern has been acting weird and that Uther is worried that Bern might attack. If Darin took over a whole territory, then Bern might hear about it and take advantage of the weakness. Essentially, Ephidel is using Laus as a pawn to start a larger war. That's one explanation. And why Caelin in particular? It's small and weak. Ephidel just needs to conquer a territory: any territory. It doesn't need to be a major one, but to be defeated would destroy everything.

Nice theory, but not even hinted at by anything in the story. Ephidel and Darin say not one single word explaining why they took over Caelin. You make a nice logical leap to explain things but what in the story supports that this was Ephidel's plan? Especially since Darin is still babbling about a rebellion in Chapter 20.

Better than Sylvia showing off her 14 year old breasts. Or Kein and Alva's dialogue.

Haven't played FE4; Alva and Kein have dialogue?

She describes them as eerie. And if she didn't say these things, that would be weird. She doesn't know anything about Nergal, after all. She's never even seen him. From her perspective, mysterious is the perfect word. Ephidel never shows his full face and has glowing gold eyes. That certainly qualifies as "eerie".

An official spy report should never contain the word "eerie" or "mysterious". It should contain facts, not personal opinions, unless prefaced with "my personal opinion is blah".

Yeah I mean the Black Fang has no reason to want you dead and to send people to kill you. They were just going to write you a stern letter.

Missing the point, yet again. My complaint here is that the Black Fang does not operate like an assassin's guild. For starters, they have enough soldiers to be their own country. Nobody assassinates someone with an army. An assassination is quick, unexpected, usually accomplished by a lone assassin or a small group working in close connection. What kind of assassin involves fifty armed soldiers barging into a castle and rushing towards the prince?

How dare they put something interesting in the game that doesn't directly affect the main plot! How dare they put something in the game that you don't personally care about!

What's interesting about Kishuna? His completely disregarded motives? The fact that what he's trying to do is never even attempted to be explained? Or perhaps his wonderful dialogue of "............." You know, since Jaffar and Rath weren't already interesting enough with their endless ellipses.

Again, Hector was emotional at the time.

Hector is apparently always emotional, and at the same time always joking around.

I see why Nergal/Jaffar/Ephidel aren't defending, though. Nergal is setting up his ritual. Ephidel is presumably helping him. Jaffar is protecting Nergal. And also gameplay.

Jaffar is defending Nergal? From who? Elbert? An old, injured, weak old man tied by bounds?

I would imagine that teleportation is a good deal more difficult than that.

Athos says that Eliwood simply needs to think of a place and Athos can warp him there. Athos claims he even could have warped Eliwood to the Shrine of Seals if he wanted to.

A lot of people died in between Chapter 11 and 19. I can see Nergal getting quite a lot of quintessence from that. Maybe, nearly enough to summon the dragons.

Not enough quintessence to make up for a fullscale rebellion between many territories against one.

You sound disappointed. Maybe you should be watching movies if playing the game is really such a pain for you.

Playing the game is a pain when the gameplay is irrelevant to the story.

Perhaps Uther's spies are wrong and Desmond isn't on the verge of starting a war. Nergal's sources of information would likely be more reliable. He might want a more reliable plan.

Perhaps Nils is lying when he explains that only he and Ninian can open the Dragon's Gate. That explains the final chapter! You know what, perhaps wherever there is a plot inconsistency, someone is just wrong or lying. Perhaps this is a story full of incompetent, wrong, lying people. Perhaps we can disregard inconvenient quotes characters say by simply saying that they're wrong, or lying.

It might be that the reach of the Black Fang doesn't quite extent to barren deserts on the other side of the planet.

If Eliwood can travel there with no problem, the Black Fang ought to be able to as well. Not to mention Limstella and Sonia have warping power~

That word does not mean what you think it means.

Yeah it does.

It's almost like they were waiting for you with a big army!

You can call it random, but it's not random. Linus and Lloyd have every reason to be trying to kill the shit out of Eliwood.

They weren't waiting for you. Linus and Lloyd clearly state that they are surprised that Eliwood is in the city. I actually put the quote in which they say "I thought they were in Nabata!" in the original post. And yet you disregard it. Ah--Perhaps they were lying! Perhaps they didn't really think that Eliwood was in Nabata.

Valuable items just lying around in an RPG? Unheard of!

They aren't just lying around. People give them to you for inadequately explained reasons.

Er, Leila already said that under Nergal, the morals of the Black Fang were abandoned and they started taking jobs targeting anyone. It makes sense they might let psychotic killers into their ranks. I don't know exactly what you mean about imprisoning him since I don't have access to the full script, but again, under Nergal, they might very well imprison someone rather than kill them in the hopes they could prove useful.

Oh okay like they do with Sonia/Ursula/Linus/etc. Just imprison them when they fail. Instead of killing them.

FE9:

Chapter 1 to 3

Bandits

Chapter 4

Soldiers attack for no reason

Chapter 8, 9, 11

Random soldier attacks

Chapter 12

Laguz bandits

Chapter 13

Random soldiers attack

Chapter 17-1 to 17-3

Fighting more random soldiers

Chapter 18, 20 to 27

Fighting more random soldiers

Wrong. Cutting down the game to one sentence explanations where everything is random certainly makes it seem like you know what you're talking about, but you don't give the game a fair reading. In my original post I wrote 11,000 words, going into every character in detail and pointing out every instance where enemy soldiers appear out of thin air and attack simply so the exposition can have a storyline. Most of the time where you say that "random soldiers attack" in PoR you're actually fighting your way into enemy territory or trying to take an enemy fort, or doing some kind of forward motion where one may reasonably expect enemies to be waiting to fight you.

Or what about FE4? Most of the castles in the game don't really add anything to the plot. You might as well skip them. Prologue to Chapter 3 is just fighting Country X that is being controlled by Manfroy. Aside from finding Diadora (which has to be the laziest bullshit in the world, a girl that just so happens to be the key to the entire plotline showing up out of nowhere and falling instantly in love with the main character) and her getting kidnapped, nothing critical to the overarching plot happens in those chapters. Hell, you could even extend that to Chapter 4. 2nd Gen is no better. You just go from castle to castle.

Haven't played FE4.

Yes, it is true that much of what happens in the actual gameplay doesn't really have much plot importance. Sadly, something interesting cannot happen every chapter.

I already explained why this is a stupid statement to make.

Maybe they're talking about the defenses at the border? In addition, I think that's a hint... Desmond wants the castle to be lightly defended so that the assassination of his son can go off without a hitch.

The castle where Zephiel is supposed to be assassinated at is not the same as Bern Manse. Not only is this explicitly stated at several points around Chapter 28, but Zephiel is not living in the Bern manse whatsoever; he's rarely even allowed to visit. And they aren't talking about defenses at the border, they're talking about the castle, and they just walk right into it without obstruction right afterwards.

When she says "trash", she means the crappy unpromoted black fang goons. Sonia is not really a Black Fang member and has no regard for the lives of her soldiers: Vaida does, and that's borne in her support conversations. Vaida wanting to kill her enemies doesn't seem to have any bearing on that.

Where in the story before this happens do we learn this? Maybe Vaida says this in her supports, but this is the first time in the game you hear of it. It actually comes as a shock, since before then you thought Vaida was some random Black Fang enemy.

In addition, the game does not "simply" tell you that the morphs are creepy or that Nergal is mysterious. Ephidel actually does appear odd and is constantly manipulating people to his ends. Very little is known about Nergal early on, other than that he's powerful. So these descriptions are shown as well as told.

Ephidel manipulates Helman and Darin, people who are explained in game as being weak and easily cowed. Furthermore, Ephidel's failure to do anything right kind of detracts from his creepiness.

Well excuse Hector for not being a perfect pure paragon who always does the right thing 100% of the time and never makes any mistakes.

There's a difference between being a perfect pure paragon and being morally reprehensible.

And how many times does Ephraim express regret over the lives he takes? Or Ike? Certainly, killing Daein soldiers seems much worse than assassins.

How many times do Ephraim or Ike joke around with a blithely cheerful attitude? Ephraim is actually handled especially well as in his flashbacks he does joke around and act like a normal kid but when he fights you see none of this cheeriness.

Anyway, I can't be bothered to continue. I'd need to split it into two posts anyway. The plotline of this game is servicable in that it serves to shunt you from battle to battle and presents villains for you to defeat. That is, after all, the purpose of a plotline in computer games.

Wrong. In a role playing game the plot is as important as the gameplay.

If everyone did things with the absolute best logic and foresight, it would be the world's worst story. I don't want a game full of Mary Sues. Life is random. People are random. If you think you can make a good story based off of what you think is a good story, post it in Creative. I'll be more than happy to critique it.

FESS. It's not perfect, but it's better than this. Hell, any other FE that I've played (5, 6, 8 through 11) is better than this.

- At the end of chapter 31x (or start of chapter 32 if skipped), Nergal mentions that he got one of the kid's dragonstone. With it, he's able to open the gate. Of course, its still not explained how he found it (maybe he silently stole it from Nils in chapter 30?) but its better than nothing.

- Nergal is insane and so not all of his actions are going to make complete sense. In Chapter 19xx, its implied that he's lost many of his memories and former personality due to pursuing dark magic. However, the ending of Chapter 19xx and his death quote imply that he still hasn't completely lost his soul and maybe deep down he knows what he's doing is wrong. At the very least, that last shred of humanity could explain why he hesitated to kill Athos and co. in chapters 29 and 30.

- Similarly, most of your complaints are based around the idea that everyone should be 100% competent, intelligent, strategic, and willing to fight and win. Also, remember that hindsight is 20/20. Once again, this doesn't explain everything but you have to cut them some slack here and there. For example, maybe it was just a lone wyvern rider that saw Eliwood in Nabata and Lloyd figured that it wasn't worth the effort to go over there especially since he doesn't trust Sonia anyway. Additionally, Jaffar probably hesitated to kill Zephiel because he was having second thoughts about the Black Fang and Nergal (remember that he betrays them in the very next scene).

The Dragonstone opens up even more questions. Most critically, the fact that the dragonstone is never mentioned before that point, which means it's pulled out of the plot's ass as an excuse for opening the gate. Plus, still doesn't explain where Nergal got the quintessence to summon dragons.

Nergal is insane, so it's okay for him to do things which make no sense. No. You can't use that as an excuse. Kefka in FFVI is insane, and yet his actions follow a reasoning. Valter in FESS is insane, but everything he does he does in correspondence with his insane logic. Nergal... has none of this. What logic is he following to keep Eliwood alive? Or for many of the other faults I point out with him? He does not explain his actions, either to himself or to others. With Valter and Kefka, we get them explaining at some point in the story why they are doing what they are doing, why they have done actions which have at times not made sense. Nergal has none of this. He does things that don't make sense because the plot requires it; the story does not try to make up an answer.

For your third point, this is all fan speculation--completely unsupported by anything in the story. "Maybe this completely unreferenced series of events happened which manages to explain the odd actions of the characters somehow." No. That is fans making excuses. You look at a well-constructed plot and the fans don't have to make excuses for it; the game explains itself. And certainly, you'll find some holes in every game/story/movie. But the amount here in Fire Emblem 7, so that in nearly every chapter you can point out something unusual or wrong with what's going on, is egregious and indefensible.

Edited July 26, 2011 by General Banzai

[bottlegnomes]

Butchering your plot just to make the game playable should send warning signs that there's either something wrong with your plot or your game.

None of the other Fire Emblem games that I've played have had issues such as this. In Sacred Stones, Vigarde sends Glen and Valter after Eirika and Ephraim as early as Chapter 3.

And Valter just decides to let Erika run off. Glen just randomly leaves and lets some scrubs deal with one of the two most important people in the entire world to Grado at the time.

Petrine hunts Ike and friends in the early chapters of PoR.

And she runs away from an army of cats that she could have probably killed herself. In fact, two enemies in that entire scenario are even slightly a threat to her, Ranulf and Greil, and even they probably couldn't have taken her by themselves. Then the Black Knight shows up and instead of killing everyone there decides to just leave and tell Petrine to retreat.

Narshen and Brunya are dispatched to kill Hector in FE6.

And then they leave because they have better things to do than make sure Hector is dead and stop the only person who is having any success fighting them from meeting up with the leader of all of Lycia.

With Legault, why not make him simply a minor Black fang member? Why build him up as second in skill to the Four Fangs, especially since he knows absolutely nothing about the Black Fang?

Oh my gosh, what if the player didn't recruit him?! Then how would they know where the black fang bases are? He's supposed to be widely known. If he weren't what are the chances Jaffar would know who he was? Or Lloyd, or Linus, or Nino, or Brendan for that matter? Granted that part could have been done better.

Also, I specifically do not want to fight hordes of Black Fang. The Black Fang should not have hordes. The Black Fang is an assassin's guild. No assassin's guild should ever have hordes.

And you probably shouldn't be able to kill 50 enemies with 10 of your own characters, but give me a FE where that isn't the case.

As for supports, giving a "metric ton of backstory" is useless if the character sucks. We don't want to read more about a character we don't like. Matthis is honestly a more interesting character than most characters in FE7. He doesn't have a metric ton of backstory but what we do see of him is well-executed and precise.

Then don't get the support conversations. No one is shoving them down your throat. Yeah, Matthis is real well developed. I don't want to fight, but Mishel will kill me. Wait he doesn't even know who I am. I could just leave and go home and get a new job and no one would even remember I was in the military. I miss my sister so I'm going to run up to her and stab her in the face.

Maybe he hoped Serra would get killed.

I think that may be one of my favorite quotes ever.

As for everything else, Ano pretty much covered it. If you do this with any FE, or really any game, the stories fall apart.

[Balcerzak]

In Thracia the weapon triangle gives +/-5 hit. It's +/-15 in FE6, which is triple. Also, it's debatable whether YOU think the weapon triangle makes a difference in FERD. But if the developers took it out of Hard Mode, they obviously thought the game would be harder without it.

Bzzzt.

Also, FE4's Weapon triangle was even more generous. Clearly a game designed for children.

[General Banzai]

And Valter just decides to let Erika run off. Glen just randomly leaves and lets some scrubs deal with one of the two most important people in the entire world to Grado at the time.

Valter explains later (in Chapter 10 Eirika to be exact) that his real motivation is to keep the war from ending, because all he wishes to do is fight and kill. That is Valter's motivation; that is why is secretly aids Eirika and Ephraim at many points in the story. He doesn't want the fighting to end; crushing them too soon goes against the thead of logic that drives Valter's character. Glen meanwhile is shown to have qualms about killing Eirika. This is hinted at first in the chapter that he does leave Saar in charge of catching her, when Cormag asks Glen what's troubling him. Glen later claims that he could not countenance killing Eirika without at least speaking to her first. If you remember, Glen is the most vocal of the old generals in questioning Vigarde's orders; so once again his seemingly odd actions are explained in the game, without large leaps of logic required.

And she runs away from an army of cats that she could have probably killed herself. In fact, two enemies in that entire scenario are even slightly a threat to her, Ranulf and Greil, and even they probably couldn't have taken her by themselves. Then the Black Knight shows up and instead of killing everyone there decides to just leave and tell Petrine to retreat.

I don't see where in the story that it is ever implied that Petrine is powerful enough to defeat the entire cat army by herself. The Black Knight as well is following his own agenda; he wants a one-on-one duel with Greil to test his strength and he can't do that with all of Greil's allies standing around him.

And then they leave because they have better things to do than make sure Hector is dead and stop the only person who is having any success fighting them from meeting up with the leader of all of Lycia.

Zephiel orders Brunya alongside him. And Narshen is horny for Clarine.

Oh my gosh, what if the player didn't recruit him?! Then how would they know where the black fang bases are? He's supposed to be widely known. If he weren't what are the chances Jaffar would know who he was? Or Lloyd, or Linus, or Nino, or Brendan for that matter? Granted that part could have been done better.

See, if they hadn't placed Legault in this position as second in ability to that of the Four Fangs, none of these problems arise. He can be an old member of the Black Fang and thus know its old regulars without being hailed as some amazing fighter that he isn't.

And you probably shouldn't be able to kill 50 enemies with 10 of your own characters, but give me a FE where that isn't the case.

And this is relevant to what exactly?

Then don't get the support conversations. No one is shoving them down your throat. Yeah, Matthis is real well developed. I don't want to fight, but Mishel will kill me. Wait he doesn't even know who I am. I could just leave and go home and get a new job and no one would even remember I was in the military. I miss my sister so I'm going to run up to her and stab her in the face.

I didn't demand for the support conversations. But someone can't simply say "oh supports develop characters real good" and ignore the poor quality of those supports. Also, Matthis's writing is top-notch. He'd rather die as one of the dashing than one of the dastardly. Check out the alliteration. FESD is rife with clever wordage that FE7 and its "Let's go to the Shrine of Seals! Something is bound to happen!!" lacks completely.

As for everything else, Ano pretty much covered it. If you do this with any FE, or really any game, the stories fall apart.

Give an analysis of FESS as close as I did and it actually gets better. FESS is so loaded with subtleties that it really only gets better the more you think about it, the more you pick apart the specific lines said instead of slapping the broadsword "oh it's just a princess fighting to reclaim her kingdom" on it.

Bzzzt.

Also, FE4's Weapon triangle was even more generous. Clearly a game designed for children.

Ah, so I was mistaken. I was confused because in FE7 the weapon triangle is triple that in FE5. The point is, however, that emphasis on the weapon triangle comes at expense at de-emphasis at many of the series gameplay elements introduced in FE4 and FE5. FE5, for instance, does not acknowledge in the plot that the weapon triangle even exists, while FE7 (and PoR, for that matter) do. The weapon triangle is even compared to rock-paper-scissors in game. I can't be certain, but I somehow doubt that Genealogy does that.

Again, just to lay this out: the point is that the weapon triangle is emphasized above most other strategic gameplay elements. If you compare to Tear Ring Saga and Berwick Saga, which were developed by Kaga, then you will note how those games emphasize features in Thracia such as capturing, skills, etc.

Edited July 26, 2011 by General Banzai

[Acacia Sgt]

It's just a game. That's mainly the reason why most stuff is the way it is. The game would e unwinnable or at the least always hard to beat if things were to happen more realistically. Or perhaps not, as such things can even happen within reason depending on the circumstances.

Also another important point is that as a game, it's never bound to always follow what the plot says and vice versa. Such is the way. You can nitpick at it all you want, but you're bound in the end accept that such is how things are, whether you like them or not.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i admit its very amusing to see this debate being done, though i have to side with Banzai here(even if i did beat FE7 like 10 times)

[Othin]

Bzzzt.

Also, FE4's Weapon triangle was even more generous. Clearly a game designed for children.

FE4's weapon triangle was the first weapon triangle. It was an experiment, and learning from it, they scaled it back in FE5. Then they ignored those lessons in FE6 and FE7.

It's just a game. That's mainly the reason why most stuff is the way it is. The game would e unwinnable or at the least always hard to beat if things were to happen more realistically. Or perhaps not, as such things can even happen within reason depending on the circumstances.

Also another important point is that as a game, it's never bound to always follow what the plot says and vice versa. Such is the way. You can nitpick at it all you want, but you're bound in the end accept that such is how things are, whether you like them or not.

All it would take is some events being arranged differently, like the Black Fang not being so close to finding Nils and Ninian in Ch7 in the first place, that would make it be able to be more realistic while still being completely playable. Most if not all other FE games had events follow a much more realistic progression that allowed great gameplay while being far more believable.

As for gameplay and story segregation, it's a problem, not a law.

Also, since Banzai ignored my dibs on the other guy, I'll just leave you all with these.

Valter: If Grado wins too easily, there'll be no more bloodshed. We must do what we can to extend the fun... I believe it's time for me to return to my darling Eirika. It wouldn't do for Glen to arrive before me, would it?

Petrine: Dog's breath! Who are you, man? You look like a common sellsword, but you fight like a demon!

Scripts, people. You're on a site with some great ones; use them. Not so great for most of FE7 unfortunately, but since you all seem so keen on distracting from FE7's issues by talking about other games, they're right there for you.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Othin

[Florete]

FE4's weapon triangle was the first weapon triangle. It was an experiment, and learning from it, they scaled it back in FE5. Then they ignored those lessons in FE6 and FE7.

'Lessons?' FE5's weapon triangle is a joke that is hardly worth existing. In FE6 they made it actually useful, and considering this is the most common strategic mechanic to be running into, that's a good thing. Why have a mechanic like that if it's better off ignored? Using this as a point to call later games more 'childish' sounds like a childish complaint in itself coming from someone who doesn't like the popularity of a game s/he didn't enjoy.

[Acacia Sgt]

All it would take is some events being arranged differently, like the Black Fang not being so close to finding Nils and Ninian in Ch7 in the first place, that would make it be able to be more realistic while still being completely playable. Most if not all other FE games had events follow a much more realistic progression that allowed great gameplay while being far more believable.

As for gameplay and story segregation, it's a problem, not a law.

If anything, the whole of Chapters 7 and 7x was like a prelude of things to come. You pretty much get introduced to Ninian and Nils, Eliwood, the Black Fang, just to tell you that there is more beyond just Lundgren.

Besides, having the Black Fang here helped indirectly with the main plot of Lyn's Story. If they hadn't actually come that close and captured Ninian, Eliwood wouldn't have rescued her, and then meet Lyn, and so to get acquaintance with her and get to know her which ended up being helpful as once Lundgren called for aid to the neighboring lands, it was Eliwood who convinced them to stay neutral. If anything, such thing could only be replicated similarly if there had been bandits instead of the Black Fang. Oh wait, what was that previous point about bandits again...?

It's neither a problem, nor a law. Again, you can't expect the plot and gameplay to coexist without a hitch, that's why it's a game.

[General Banzai]

'Lessons?' FE5's weapon triangle is a joke that is hardly worth existing. In FE6 they made it actually useful, and considering this is the most common strategic mechanic to be running into, that's a good thing. Why have a mechanic like that if it's better off ignored? Using this as a point to call later games more 'childish' sounds like a childish complaint in itself coming from someone who doesn't like the popularity of a game s/he didn't enjoy.

The point is that rock-paper-scissors is hardly a strategic element whatsoever. The point is that it's easy to exploit and usually better for the player than the enemy. Finally, rock-paper-scissors itself is a game that every child can comprehend. Skills/movement stars/capturing/fatigue, especially since these features are not explained in-game, are far more complex and take a more developed mind.

Also, I've played FE7 over 15 times, and read the plot several times before then. Only recently did I begin to realize these flaws; as I say in my original post, the game is good at concealing its issues. So no, I did not simply say "I don't like this game. Let me make up some bullcrap to explain why." I liked this game quite a bit until recently, when I actually began to THINK about it.

[Dig]

Jaffar is defending Nergal? From who? Elbert? An old, injured, weak old man tied by bounds?

That "weak old man" had already untied his bonds and attacked Nergal once, and Jaffar had to step in. Not to mention that there's that whole thing where Elbert DID in fact stab Nergal after Ephidel send Jaffar away. So, yeah: Saying that Jaffar was protecting Nergal is more than fair, I'd say.

[General Banzai]

That "weak old man" had already untied his bonds and attacked Nergal once, and Jaffar had to step in. Not to mention that there's that whole thing where Elbert DID in fact stab Nergal after Ephidel send Jaffar away. So, yeah: Saying that Jaffar was protecting Nergal is more than fair, I'd say.

If Elbert was so dangerous why didn't Nergal kill him earlier? He claims to need Elbert as a sacrifice for a ritual, but in no other point in the game does Nergal need to use quintessence the second he harvests it. In fact, isn't the point of Limstella so that she can go around collecting quintessence that he can use at his leisure? Nergal had no reason to keep Elbert alive that long.

Also, Nergal is like twice as powerful as Jaffar. It makes no sense why nergal has to be protected at all.

[Florete]

The point is that rock-paper-scissors is hardly a strategic element whatsoever. The point is that it's easy to exploit and usually better for the player than the enemy. Finally, rock-paper-scissors itself is a game that every child can comprehend. Skills/movement stars/capturing/fatigue, especially since these features are not explained in-game, are far more complex and take a more developed mind.

But why have it if it's useless? There's no point to it in FE5, so in 6 and later games they just increased it to actually mean something. Just because it's simple doesn't make the game more childish, it's just better design to actually use your mechanics.

Movement stars are, as far as I know, completely luck-based and not 'complex.' The others I can give you, though I find fatigue frustrating and pointless.

Also, I've played FE7 over 15 times, and read the plot several times before then. Only recently did I begin to realize these flaws; as I say in my original post, the game is good at concealing its issues. So no, I did not simply say "I don't like this game. Let me make up some bullcrap to explain why." I liked this game quite a bit until recently, when I actually began to THINK about it.

Well, even when I was a middle schooler, I didn't find FE7's story to be all that awesome, which is why I'm not arguing your points there and not calling any of it 'bullcrap.' I just find some of these other complaints to be absolutely ridiculous, like you're just searching as hard as you can to find even one more reason to dislike the game, because the expanded weapon triangle is most certainly not a 'flaw.'

[Dig]

If Elbert was so dangerous why didn't Nergal kill him earlier? He claims to need Elbert as a sacrifice for a ritual, but in no other point in the game does Nergal need to use quintessence the second he harvests it. In fact, isn't the point of Limstella so that she can go around collecting quintessence that he can use at his leisure? Nergal had no reason to keep Elbert alive that long.

Also, Nergal is like twice as powerful as Jaffar. It makes no sense why nergal has to be protected at all.

I somewhat agree with you on Nergal keeping Elbert alive not making the most sense of any plot device ever, but look: If you're working on a ritual that (for some reason) needs this sacrifice, are you going to want people running up and fucking with you? Hello no. No matter how powerful you are, a distraction is a distraction. That's why Jaffar pops up when he does. Besides, every RPG in the history of RPGs (or at least the vast majority of them) has a final boss that's the most powerful enemy in the game. Yet he/she/it has underlings who are far less powerful than him/her/itself to protect him/her/it. Why? Well, for one thing, this allows the big bad to focus on his/her/its goals. For another, it gives the player "stepping stone" enemies to kill and grow more powerful before fighting the final boss. Saying that Nergal shouldn't have any underlings protecting him is like kicking the entire RPG genre in the metaphorical crotch.

[General Banzai]

But why have it if it's useless? There's no point to it in FE5, so in 6 and later games they just increased it to actually mean something. Just because it's simple doesn't make the game more childish, it's just better design to actually use your mechanics.

Movement stars are, as far as I know, completely luck-based and not 'complex.' The others I can give you, though I find fatigue frustrating and pointless.

Well, even when I was a middle schooler, I didn't find FE7's story to be all that awesome, which is why I'm not arguing your points there and not calling any of it 'bullcrap.' I just find some of these other complaints to be absolutely ridiculous, like you're just searching as hard as you can to find even one more reason to dislike the game, because the expanded weapon triangle is most certainly not a 'flaw.'

I didn't say it was a flaw, but I did say that it indicates that FE7 is geared towards a younger audience which will grasp the weapon triangle easier than, say, skills or fatigue. The point for bringing this up was actually to introduce the point that Hector and friends operate on a "middle school logic" where joking and laughing in the midst of killing is okay, as long as the killing happens to the bad guys. Really, the weapon triangle argument was a sub-point of a sub-point, and I find myself getting caught up in this argument over it while the main issue of what I was trying to say, the main issue of why I don't like FE7, is the loose, childlike morality. This discourse is plot only; gameplay elements are mostly irrelevant to me. That's why I don't talk about them much. But I did mention the weapon triangle in a sentence or two and that's what people have seemed to focus in on.

So say what you will. The weapon triangle is not childish; if that's what you believe, so be it. But that's not what I'm arguing about here; I'm arguing about FE7's PLOT.

I've already got like five of you guys writing huge paragraphs to counter; I can't get sidetracked and start to talk about things which aren't of much relevance to the main point of what I'm saying here. If you want to take this as a concession of defeat on this one, minor point, do what you will, but in the end that concession says nothing about FE7's plot, which is the main idea that my argument revolves around.

[Florete]

but in the end that concession says nothing about FE7's plot, which is the main idea that my argument revolves around.

Good, that's what I wanted to see. I still think it's something that shouldn't even have been brought up for reasons I already explained, but I won't pursue it further.

Getting caught on small points happens all the time, in any case.

[Othin]

'Lessons?' FE5's weapon triangle is a joke that is hardly worth existing. In FE6 they made it actually useful, and considering this is the most common strategic mechanic to be running into, that's a good thing. Why have a mechanic like that if it's better off ignored? Using this as a point to call later games more 'childish' sounds like a childish complaint in itself coming from someone who doesn't like the popularity of a game s/he didn't enjoy.

FE5's weapon triangle may have been minor, but if you like the weapon triangle at all, there's certainly no reason to complain about it. On the other hand, Kaga apparently didn't like the weapon triangle and decided it was a failed experiment, and having learned his lesson, removed it from TRS and Berwick.

You want to know why this thread exists? It's because a discussion in a quiet chat last night resulted in Banzai and I sifting through FE7's script and finding a minefield of loopholes, and thinking to share these discoveries with people who took the game at face value and got the wrong impression. None of this venting you seem to believe, just a desire to share knowledge and understanding.

If anything, the whole of Chapters 7 and 7x was like a prelude of things to come. You pretty much get introduced to Ninian and Nils, Eliwood, the Black Fang, just to tell you that there is more beyond just Lundgren.

Besides, having the Black Fang here helped indirectly with the main plot of Lyn's Story. If they hadn't actually come that close and captured Ninian, Eliwood wouldn't have rescued her, and then meet Lyn, and so to get acquaintance with her and get to know her which ended up being helpful as once Lundgren called for aid to the neighboring lands, it was Eliwood who convinced them to stay neutral. If anything, such thing could only be replicated similarly if there had been bandits instead of the Black Fang. Oh wait, what was that previous point about bandits again...?

It's neither a problem, nor a law. Again, you can't expect the plot and gameplay to coexist without a hitch, that's why it's a game.

Of course it was a prelude. It was a prelude that resulted in a situation that couldn't possibly have been handled sensibly. That's not a sign to handle it insensibly; it's a sign to go with a different sort of prelude or no prelude at all. And it's certainly false to imply that there was no better way Eliwood and Lyn could have met up - or that it was even necessary for them to, really.

No one's talking about expecting the plot and gameplay to coexist without a hitch. All we're saying is that for an RPG, they need to be balanced and fit together reasonably well. FE7 does not do this in the slightest; it allows the story to be ripped apart for the sake of gameplay that could be worked out with a better story anyway.

I've explained this enough times, and I'm not going to continue wasting my time explaining it to everyone who apparently doesn't listen. Don't make excuses, based on FE7 being a video game or based on comparisons to other FE games. If you have something to say about FE7, we'll talk. If you want to talk about other games here, we're not interested.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Othin

[Florete]

FE5's weapon triangle may have been minor, but if you like the weapon triangle at all, there's certainly no reason to complain about it. On the other hand, Kaga apparently didn't like the weapon triangle and decided it was a failed experiment, and having learned his lesson, removed it from TRS and Berwick.

Because Kaga is the God of SRPG creation.

I do happen to like the weapon triangle, but as far as I'm concerned, FE5 does not have one.

You want to know why this thread exists? It's because a discussion in a quiet chat last night resulted in Banzai and I sifting through FE7's script and finding a minefield of loopholes, and thinking to share these discoveries with people who took the game at face value and got the wrong impression. None of this venting you seem to believe, just a desire to share knowledge and understanding.

I can believe that was your original intention (yours, anyway), but with some of the stuff I'm reading in here and stuff I've read from Banzai in the past I have a hard time believing that is still the case. Either way, discussion of this game's plot is not my area since I haven't read it in years nor did I find it worth defending in the first place.

[Aethereal]

Nergal: Why? Why must I lose? More power... I must be...stronger... I... Why? Why did I... want power? ......Quintessence? ...Don't...under...stand... but... Gaa... Not like this... I will not die...like this. With my last breath... tremble...and...despair. Hwah ha ha... Ha...ha ha ha…

Make sense of this. In one line, Nergal goes from regretful at his loss, to wondering why he ever wanted power, to not understanding quintessence, to suddenly and inexplicably decided to crush you with his final breath. What. How does that make sense? You do not say "Why? Why did I want power?" and then immediately after "With my last breath tremble and despair." That does not make sense. What is Nergal's motivation here? Is he gaining his sanity back at the last moment, only to throw it away in one final spiteful plunge? What is he doing in this quote?

I just want to address this quote a bit, as it hasn't been, and I figured it really bothered you. The real translation replaces Quintessence with Aenir, his wife's name, which is absolutely not your fault for not knowing. It's a mistake by the translation team for this game, but it does make the quote more sensical, as well as help make the character of Nergal a tragic one. I've always liked Nergal, maybe just because I thought that dark/elder magic in these games is a nice touch that wasn't given enough emphasis. In any case, looking at this quote from Canas' supports: " As you know, elder magic is based on the forces of darkness... It is even more powerful than nature magic, which is often called anima. But to use this magic, you must invite the dark forces within you. The temptation to submit to the darkness is...great."

Understanding this, and examining some of the primary dark magic users in the plot (Bramimond, and Nergal, and to a lesser extent Teodor) can explain a lot, particularly in Nergal's case. In his flashback in 19xx, he seems like a kind and caring father and husband. Athos constantly described him as a good friend, before he began his search for quintessence. The following isn't me "making excuses" for Nergal, or the plot, it's what I honestly believe is implied, however subtly, to be the actual chain of events that cause Nergal to be, well, the crazy-evil douche that Nergal is.

During the dragons' escape from this world, Aenir is taken by some "Bad men" or whatever he specifically says. Nergal tells Ninian and Nils to head to the other side if he does not return in time, and as you find them on the other side, and Nergal says he "left something" at the temple where he left them, we can assume he never returned. There can be a couple of reasons for this: Nergal was a) defeated, or captured, and incapable of returning to them, b) Found Aenir dead, and was too heartbroken/devastated to realize to return for his children, c) He had to search for Aenir for an extended period of time, d) Something entirely unrelated to Aenir occured which kept him from returning for his children. Aenir is either dead, or has made it to the other side of the dragon's gate, as she is never mentioned by Athos, nor is she seen with Athos and Nergal in any of the flashback images. In either case, his entire family is on the other side of the Dragon's Gate, every one he loves and cares about. His search for knowledge was probably very much related to finding the knowledge to open and/or cross the Dragon's Gate. At some point in Arcadia, Nergal finds his means: Quintessence. This is why he was so obsessed with trying to obtain more quintessence, he desperately wanted to see his children again.

In his obsession with obtaining this new form of 'power', Nergal succumbs to the darkness, and allows it to engulf him, or more likely, it simply DOES engulf him. From Athos' exposition on their time in Arcadia, it is clear that Nergal has changed a great deal. This is because of that dark magic. In his search for this power that he craves so badly, the dark consumes him, and it changes his intentions and reasoning behind searching for power. Additionally, we have a great quote from Teodor: "Yes. It's the fate of those who study dark magic. If you covet the dark, you must enter it of your own free will. You must erase yourself and become an empty vessel. Only then will you be able to receive the dark and master it. If your disposition is weak, the dark will overwhelm you. You will be…lost… …Ofttimes, you will forget why you seek the power to begin with. Only a few people ever gain true power."

To finally come back to your original point though: Yes, he was simply regaining his sanity for a moment. He had obviously forgotten that he was originally searching for Ninian and Nils, if not, he probably would have been a little nicer to them when they'd come through the portal, instead of stealing their dragonstones and imprisoning them. Why he wanted power so badly to begin with is important; it ultimately led to his demise. Aenir is important because, well, when you're married to some one, have children with some one, and love some one, on your death bed you will probably think of them. However, this reclamation of his sanity is fleeting, the darkness has engulfed him after all. Maybe this line is a bit off, simply in that, you wouldn't be able to fight dark magic once it had taken its hold on you. But who are we to say? If, in IS' decision, it's possible to regain sanity from the darkness for a moment or two, at an emotional peak (Which death quite clearly is), who are we to argue it? I've always loved the death quote to be honest.

The point of this totally long-winded and probably unnecessary rant is this though: I feel like this moment really bothered you, and I felt like it was a great end to a tragic character. Maybe I can't change your mind on that, but, I can say that it isn't nonsensical, and that his character isn't just 'insane' as I think you've said a few times, (It's late, I may be misremembering, apologies if so) and I've always loved Nergal's backstory and character. It's incredibly well-explained, and gives him a ton of depth, and to be honest, after my first playthrough where I reached chapter 19xx and put all the pieces together, it turned Nergal from Generic Bad Dude #4 into a relatable character, that I almost felt bad killing, even though it is a video game. I think that for all of Lyon and Zephiel's, and to some extent Sephiran's backstories and motivations, none of them come close to this. Nergal's an incredibly awesome villain, and the other villains of the FE series (Especially Zelgius and Ashnard. Actually, just especially Ashnard) have much worse motivations, backstory, and over all development. I can totally agree that some of the plot has holes, maybe not as many as you think, but there are some. But don't let the bad writing ruin the awesome parts as well, man.

Sorry if this felt off subject at times.

[Acacia Sgt]

Of course it was a prelude. It was a prelude that resulted in a situation that couldn't possibly have been handled sensibly. That's not a sign to handle it insensibly; it's a sign to go with a different sort of prelude or no prelude at all. And it's certainly false to imply that there was no better way Eliwood and Lyn could have met up - or that it was even necessary for them to, really.

Well, of course whether it was done good or bad is another thing entirely. You're right on that point.

Actually, the chances of their meeting were already low to begin with. Eliwood was near Kathelet due to his monthly spar with Hector (I don't remember the actual time-frame, but the point is still the same that he couldn't possibly be there all the time). And the reason he didn't make it in time, hence why Hector is complaining if you visit him, was due to having encountered the whole kidnapping situation by chance.

It basically boils down to those many factors happening at the same time: That he had a reason to be in the area, that it was where Lyn would be passing through, that the kidnapping was also in the same area, that he got to see the kidnapping and decided to interfere.

And it was necessary. If not to show the player that you'll be using him later in the game, then go for the in-game reason: help Lyn out. Had it not been for Eliwood, Lundgren would've received the help he requested, making Lyn's journey more difficult of even reaching the point of impossible, as at least 4 other Marquesses had answered in Lundgren's favor.

Actually, let's think this through. Had they really helped out, just imagine what would mean for Lycia as a whole. From Matthew's visit to Hector, you learn Ostia is aware of the whole thing and considering of intervening if things get out of hand. Now that would certainly have sparked Ostia into action, and whether or not the conflict would've escalated further, it's highly likely that it would've fulfilled Nergal's plans sooner than expected. Not saying that was guaranteed to happen, but hey, it would've been convenient for him.

[General Banzai]

@Aethereal: Oh, no, one of the things that FE7 does manage to do quite well is carry the reoccurring theme of the corruption of dark magic. We see it both with Teodor and Canas, and especially Nergal. Nergal having a tragic side is not what I'm confused about; the game does make clear that he was not always evil, and I've known about Aenir before this. My question about Nergal's deathquote, then, is not "is he regaining his sanity in his last moments?" but rather "why does he throw away that triumph of regaining his sanity by suddenly and inexplicable vowing to destroy you with his final breath?"

My problem is not that Nergal goes from regretful to suddenly sane, but that he does that and then loses his sanity again, inexplicably, marginalizing his statement of "why did I want power?" That is what I don't understand. If Nergal really does regain his focus at the end, why does he still summon the dragons?

My problems with Nergal stem not from his backstory; not in the slightest. I never really in my original post blasted Nergal for that. What I did complain about is the tremendous logical leaps Nergal takes during the actual game, such as not killing people when he has the perfect opportunity to and not utilizing his power to its fullest extent. That--and how Nergal summons the dragons at the end anyways. He does it, seemingly, contradicting the sentence he says right before (Why did I want power? With my last breath tremble in fear!).

I feel these issues marginalize what good is done with Nergal's character.

[eclipse]

*sees SS*

*facepalms*

I said WRITE your own damn story, not grab another piece of work, and one of the ones which I'm not fond of, to boot.

[Aethereal]

To address one more argument, yes other villains leave incompetent and weak underlings to do the jobs they are assigned, even if they are the most important things to their plots at the time, without a real explanation. Even in SS. Chapter 6 of SS:

Riev:

Heh heh heh... Pray it goes as you say. Very well. Do what you must. I must return to the capital.

Novala:

Will you not stay and see how Eirika looks in captivity?

Riev:

Unlike two other layabouts I know, I do not have such time to waste. I have much to do for out master. A mountain of tasks awaits me. My time is far too precious to waste on the likes of that royal whelp. Trifles such at these are best left in the hands of servants...such as you.

This is exactly what Ursula does. Really, you could swap the two quotes, with the exception of the "Law of the fang" bit, and get, essentially the same results.

Edit:

@Aethereal: Oh, no, one of the things that FE7 does manage to do quite well is carry the reoccurring theme of the corruption of dark magic. We see it both with Teodor and Canas, and especially Nergal. Nergal having a tragic side is not what I'm confused about; the game does make clear that he was not always evil, and I've known about Aenir before this. My question about Nergal's deathquote, then, is not "is he regaining his sanity in his last moments?" but rather "why does he throw away that triumph of regaining his sanity by suddenly and inexplicable vowing to destroy you with his final breath?"

My problem is not that Nergal goes from regretful to suddenly sane, but that he does that and then loses his sanity again, inexplicably, marginalizing his statement of "why did I want power?" That is what I don't understand. If Nergal really does regain his focus at the end, why does he still summon the dragons?

My problems with Nergal stem not from his backstory; not in the slightest. I never really in my original post blasted Nergal for that. What I did complain about is the tremendous logical leaps Nergal takes during the actual game, such as not killing people when he has the perfect opportunity to and not utilizing his power to its fullest extent. That--and how Nergal summons the dragons at the end anyways. He does it, seemingly, contradicting the sentence he says right before (Why did I want power? With my last breath tremble in fear!).

I feel these issues marginalize what good is done with Nergal's character.

Fair enough, I'm just misinterpreting then. Although, I'll also add that you can say this about most any villain, throughout the Fire Emblem series, to some extent. The logical leaps that is.

As far as throwing his sanity away, I'd assume he simply loses control of that freedom he reclaims? Or he's simply spiteful, even if he does reclaim clarity and sanity. I don't think that it'd be unfair to be spiteful towards the people who just put you inches from your death and "betrayed" you, wether sane or not.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Aethereal