Fire Emblem 12 ~Heroes~ Translation Project

[General Banzai]

Vincent has the right idea.

[Celice]

Preconceptions should not be ignored. In Marth's case, anyone likely to be familiar with FE will know him as Marth, and for good reason. For characters such as Vergil, however, who have never had any importance in any localized game, the impact of such preconceptions on the overall group of people who would be playing FE12 would be far smaller.

That's not a reason, however. It's a justification. The two are not the same.

[Othin]

Speak plainly.

[Refa]

I'm asking why the transistion from Belf to Vergil really affects him. I'd like to hear the answer straight from the horse's mouth, you don't need to feel responsible for answering it, Celice.

Edited February 10, 2012 by Refa

[dondon151]

1) you and 10 other people isn't everyone

2) I'm not leading this project

3) if you have personal issues that's what personal messages are for, bro, though what you need is a personal massage

so do you actually think people respond better to inflammatory retorts

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

luffy how old are you? i feel like you have to be around 5 years older then myself if not 10...but your acting five years younger then me.

i know its not on topic, but its bugging me now X_X.

on topic i'm glad to see the game's translation has been going along so well.

[CT075]

1) you and 10 other people isn't everyone

2) I'm not leading this project

3) if you have personal issues that's what personal messages are for, bro, though what you need is a personal massage

1) good thing it's more than 11 people, then.

2) sure looks like it

3) and still the politeness continues. it's a wonder that there's any conflict at all with such awe-inspiring public speaking skills

[LeaderR Elliot]

I'm asking why the transistion from Belf to Vergil really affects him. I'd like to hear the answer straight from the horse's mouth, you don't need to feel responsible for answering it, Celice.

Trick question. We are not the ones responsible of translating his base convo to make that kind of assumptions.

It affects him because it is not his original name AND they are changing his name with a lame excuse which is not acceptable.

[Arch]

It affects him because it is not his original name AND they are changing his name with a lame excuse which is not acceptable.

The name was changed as part of quality control on an pretty bad Japanese name. If producing a quality localization isn't a valid reason, there is probably no reason you'll ever consider valid.

Quick question. When you see Marth instead of Mars, does it make you upset? Marth isn't the original name of the character and they changed it for no real reason (Mars is just as valid a name). Are you as upset with Nintendo of America for Mars -> Marth as you are with this project for Belf -> Vergil?

Edited February 10, 2012 by Arch

[General Banzai]

Don't assume that Mars was changed to Marth for no real reason.

In the same vein, there is a clear reason for why someone would want to change the name of Belf to Virgil. It has to do with the thoughts that those two names evoke: Virgil, a Classical poet, a name of distinction and learning; or Belf, which sounds like Barf.

Now one could make the claim that Virgil goes too far to the other end of the spectrum; that, like Mars, it is far too obvious a name. But don't go and say "Ololol there is no reason to change Belf" because you're simply wrong.

[LeaderR Elliot]

The name was changed as part of quality control on an pretty bad Japanese name. If producing a quality localization isn't a valid reason, there is probably no reason you'll ever consider valid.

Quality localization? But you only had to do a translation with proof reading Dialog... you cannot post a valid reason to change his name.

Quick question. When you see Marth instead of Mars, does it make you upset? Marth isn't the original name of the character and they changed it for no real reason (Mars is just as valid a name). Are you as upset with Nintendo of America for Mars -> Marth as you are with this project for Belf -> Vergil?

Quick answer: I can never be upset with my first FE game , altough the th in Marth name is cool.

[Refa]

Trick question. We are not the ones responsible of translating his base convo to make that kind of assumptions.

It affects him because it is not his original name AND they are changing his name with a lame excuse which is not acceptable.

lol what is this. Trick question? I'm asking why does it affect you? Why do you feel Belf is a better name?

It can't be because it's not his original name. Because there is no official translation of his original name.

Unless we're considering other fan translations. But that would just be stupid and disingenuous.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Refa

[Celice]

But there is an official intention though. For example, the obvious Romanesque mythology and cameos would suggest Mars is the name that's supposed to be there, not Marth. For all we know, the localization team for Smash Bros. hadn't a clue and thought Mars was a wonky name for the guy, or also could have saw the Engrish name if one was included with the game and went with it.

Belf--however you transcribe it--can have its own important roots that we simply do not know of. That's how you get the "official translation" of a name, if you can see where it's meant to come from. When you can't, or it seems impertinent, localization often trashes over and repaves.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Celice

[Refa]

Belf--however you transcribe it--can have its own important roots that we simply do not know of. That's how you get the "official translation" of a name, if you can see where it's meant to come from. When you can't, or it seems impertinent, localization often trashes over and repaves.

It could be a spectacular name choice. Of course, noone has given me reason to believe so besides "they used it in the last fantranslation patch I played, derp"

Edited February 11, 2012 by Refa

[Celice]

There was no translation for Belf. He was featured in a BS Fire Emblem episode, of which no fan has translated (how are you supposed to translate streams of live-action voice-overs?). People prefer the name because it is his name, not because someone said it was Belf. The kana spells it out plainly and simply.

[Refa]

That is no explanation for excuse the Belf name change. That only explains that they are so tired of these small complains about names and still won´t care.

I have to say it really affects me to read "Vergil" instead of Belf because he First patch if IIRC had Belf name.

And if IIRC in the Poll about Belf name (the one in the translation site), Belf was not an option. So it is not fair. IMO

Well this guy is just full of shit then.

[Dark Sage]

From now on Blazer is not allowed to talk about the changes to regarding the translation patch since it's inevitable he'll either pull the whole "lol I'm gonna pretend i don't care what you think" or he'll throw a temper tantrum. Or at least, he should not be allowed to be the most frequent talker on the project because he always provokes a fight.

[Arch]

Quality localization? But you only had to do a translation with proof reading Dialog... you cannot post a valid reason to change his name.

You'll never see a valid reason because you don't believe in change, you believe in pure translation. That's fine, your opinion is your opinion, but it's silly to demand answers that you won't accept.

Banzai explained it well, Vergil invokes a certain image. Vergil (the FE character) is quite a classy man, from what I've read. Base dialog of his refers to drinking tea, he wears formal clothing, and comes across as an intellectually bright man. The name 'Vergil' is an appropriately classy name for a classy character, it fits. The name Belf doesn't really have any significance or roots, and, as said before, sounds like barf. Therefore, Vergil was voted for (by fans) to replace the poor name. Vergil won a majority of votes, significantly more votes than the other options combined (67% total), in a three-way contest with two other options closer to the original name (Belves and Bert, I believe). That's the justification. I doubt you'll accept it, but there it is anyways.

People prefer the name because it is his name, not because someone said it was Belf. The kana spells it out plainly and simply.

By that logic, people should demand Gerik be called Xyst, and Artur be called Asseray. The kana spells it out plainly and simply, after all, and those are the characters' names.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Arch

[General Banzai]

There was no translation for Belf. He was featured in a BS Fire Emblem episode, of which no fan has translated (how are you supposed to translate streams of live-action voice-overs?). People prefer the name because it is his name, not because someone said it was Belf. The kana spells it out plainly and simply.

Again, the Katakana only means shit some of the time. When localization changes are made to a name, it's typically either because a name is too long and unpronounceable or too abrupt and gutteral. See: Bole, Jist, Way, Lay, Noyce, Org, etc.

Belf easily could be considered a gutteral and unbecoming name for a well-polished knight.

[Dark Sage]

I do wish the poll did have Belf as an option but whatever. It is pretty amusing to see people butthurt over the namechange of a minor character.

[Celice]

By that logic, people should demand Gerik be called Xyst, and Artur be called Asseray. The kana spells it out plainly and simply, after all, and those are the characters' names.

You're dipping into an entirely wrong pool. FE3 has no localization--as such, its original name of Belf is the go-to reference. Whereas in FE8, there are multiple go-to names to consider. What you're trying to do is put your own foot out and make the call to establish Vergil as a replacement for Belf. Because you're making a call without any backing officially, you're creating a micro-schism between resources. Should wikia resources use Vergil because you pulled it out and thought it should be his name? Should Serenes Forest make an addendum saying that this translation project took the liberty of giving Belf another name, and that to remember they're both the same characters? This isn't an addition--it's a retroactive limitation. There's enough clammering whenever I use the original Japanese name because I don't know what NoA or NoE called a character (let alone that I start calling Gatrei Gatorie because that's his name in the French version!)--this same confusion is going to occur for people because of your translation. Luckily Belf is such a minor dude, there's not really anything noticeable, but that's not the issue, the notoriety of his name. What is is this problem of retroactive replacement.

Edited February 11, 2012 by Celice

[Othin]

If that was the case, then NoA shouldn't have changed the characters' names from Xyst and Asseray to begin with. But they did, as they were being a professional translation, just as this project is doing, and therefore it has no need to be bound by any different limitations.

The core fact that you're missing is that "Belf" does not have a go-to name, not for English versions of the game. Just like "Xyst" was not what the FE8 translators knew well not to use as a go-to name, "Belf" is what the FE12 translators know well not to use as a go-to name. Wikis and other sites that listed names such as Brad for Aran and Eddie for Edward had to "retroactively" change them when the English version came out, and in the same way, they would be wisest to change "Belf" to "Vergil" and all other relevant changes when this de facto English version is finalized.

[Momo]

Wikis shouldn't change the name, as Wikis use official information, not things from fan translations. At most, it'd be mentioned in the trivia.

[Othin]

Surely we recognize that no English source would refer to him only as ベルフ or Berufu. Therefore, someone's subjective translation must be applied.

[Celice]

If that was the case, then NoA shouldn't have changed the characters' names from Xyst and Asseray to begin with. But they did, as they were being a professional translation, just as this project is doing, and therefore it has no need to be bound by any different limitations.

The core fact that you're missing is that "Belf" does not have a go-to name, not for English versions of the game. Just like "Xyst" was not what the FE8 translators knew well not to use as a go-to name, "Belf" is what the FE12 translators know well not to use as a go-to name. Wikis and other sites that listed names such as Brad for Aran and Eddie for Edward had to "retroactively" change them when the English version came out, and in the same way, they would be wisest to change "Belf" to "Vergil" and all other relevant changes when this de facto English version is finalized.

Nintendo is a respectable, more objective group to deal with. Not everyone knows about this translation or who the members are, what their changes are. People will blindly pick up the patch, and find a mismatch of information in some places.

Belf does indeed have a go-to. It's his name. The reason resources were updated was because there was an official stance on a change, not because fans decided to change a name on whim. The Belf case is this, an entirely different standard, and should be observed as such--it's unrelational to Nintendo of America and Nintendo of Europe changes. At this rate if there were three translation projects on this game, and they all made different names for Belf... that's the issue. Anyone can make up a name. Should that somehow make it a standardized name?

Surely we recognize that no English source would refer to him only as ベルフ or Berufu. Therefore, someone's subjective translation must be applied.

Surely one would recognize that ベルフ does not become バージル. Subjectivity is how one interacts with the text. Not how one replaces it completely.

Most of the reason why people are interested in Belf becoming Vergil is that there isn't any good reason that goes beyond someone thinks it's not a good name. Which is just as swiftly countered by people who do, and both are trumped by people who don't care. It's not that people are raising hands to put Vergil down and take Belf back. It's that people want to see the project and its merit, which at the point it is, is very little that Arch and Blazer are capable of showing (luckily TheEnd isn't a bloke from the corner!). Hell, I still remember how Arch couldn't figure out how the "w-sounding" kana works and thought that some character using it in their name was being wrongly referred to by every fan ever. There's a certain level of shiftiness that's viewed with decisions when the decisions are being explained/made by someone with shifty footing themselves.