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Anouleth

Thieves

  

97 members have voted

  1. 1. How should thieves be fixed?

    • They're fine as they are
      25
    • Give them Canto
      24
    • Mount them on a donkey, which becomes a goat upon promotion
      48


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Then it sucks to be you? Part of what makes thieves awesome is the ability to open stuffs for relatively cheap.

coolstorybro :B):

Though it's a letdown that they cannot rob weapons in any FE game but 5, 7 and 10.

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Why should Chest and Door Keys be rare? Suppose you have no Thieves in your party when you lose them in combat and don't feel like starting over?

^^' I can see door keys being a little more important, but opening chests isn't required to get to certain parts of maps or completing maps. So I definitely think chest keys should be extremely rare. Making things like this exclusive to thieves would require a little bit more strategy using thieves ^^'.

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coolstorybro :B):

Though it's a letdown that they cannot rob weapons in any FE game but 5, 7 and 10.

I think they can jack weapons in 9, too. I know they couldn't in 7!

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Why should Chest and Door Keys be rare? Suppose you have no Thieves in your party when you lose them in combat and don't feel like starting over?

By that logic, Elixirs should be cheap and common since you might accidentally kill off all your healers, all characters should be able to cross all terrain types on their own because you might lose all your flying units, and so on. I think that Door Keys should still drop from enemies in appropriate chapters, but I think that optional doors and chests should require a thief.

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This would take some massive tweaking of the enemy AI, but...

I'd give thieves a "Stealth" ability that reduces their movement, but gives them sort of a personal "Fog of War" (i.e. enemy units can't attack a stealthed thief unless there's already an enemy unit within three spaces of that thief), but then I realized that Fog of War doesn't apply to enemies.

Or maybe I'd have a Thief's skill and luck doubled if he attacks out of Stealth, or make the enemy unable to retaliate against a thief who attacks out of Stealth, or both.

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They are useful in FoW maps though. Especially with a torch slapped on them. But apart from that, stealing an enemy's swag (Makoya's Laguzslayer, Jasmine's Guiding Ring to name some examples), and backup door/chest opening utility for when and if you run out of keys, they just stink. FE4 hit them the hardest because of the simple fact that they HAVE to engage in combat to steal an enemy's gil. Pursuit after promotion isn't enough to fix their combat. (Which is the reason I can think of for why Azel, Holyn, or Beowulf, or maybe even Alec would be considered as a suitor for Bridget.) And even then, gil is pretty common in FE4, and the Thief Ring exists. The promotion to Assassin (in FEs 7-9) helps their combat, but an Assassin's use is hindered by the fact that they rely on high crit weapons for double digit chances of OHKOing enemies, and, unless if they're FE9!Volke, they happen to lose their stealing ability post-promotion. Assassins are just plain overshadowed by Rogues and Swordmasters in FE8.

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I voted for goats. Not sure if I said that.

Someone earlier mentioned innate pass, which is...a really smart idea.

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I think thieving should just be like in FE5. The theives are more useful in that game because their utility is increased. If they grow build every few levels and use the build ring they can steal many things.

Edited by Second Pronoun

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make keys appear enough in easy mode, make keys rare in normal mode, only 1 or 2 actual keys in hard mode.

make them able to steal equipped weapons when skill 4 higher than opponent and str 4 more than weapon WT.

make them be able to pass any enemy they can double (4 more speed).

give (almost) all enemies a certain amount of money in their inventory (ranging from 1 to 3000 gold).

use the wall climbing system of FE10 and make only thieves climb walls twice as high as other foot-units.

any of these would make thieves better, and are better options instead of donkeys/goats IMO.

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I'm pretty sure that the only Chest Keys are in optional missions. There is a Master Key in Chapter 20, but that's basically when the game is almost over.

Kinda unrelated, but can keys be bought in WiFi shop?

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Kinda unrelated, but can keys be bought in WiFi shop?

Yes, you can buy Master Keys at 2400 each, but given that that's about the same price as an Again staff or a Rescue staff, it's still not coming cheap. And I should think that Again and Rescue staves being buyable should indicate that the wi-fi shop kind of breaks the game.

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Thieves/Rogues/Assassins should be given 7 movement (Maybe thieves can stay at 6...) and an innate pass ability. This suits their job as a FoW scout, and they can quickly make their way to chests without having to kill the enemies first. As most thieves have high speed/luck, they can avoid an attack or two while the rest of their team catches up.

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If Thieves could steal itens just like in Thracia 776 / steal their money like Dew, they would be better units imo.

I like the 3rd option, but I'd rather promote my donkey into a trojan horse than into a goat. He'd be like, "Let us get inside your town!", and then loot at night like there's no tomorrow.

Edited by Lorddomu

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The way I see it, there is a very simple way to make thieves a lot more valuable that doesn't even require a change in how the class functions. The problem isn't the thieves themselves, but rather how their ability is handled. Even if thieves got canto, mounted movement, and became more useable in combat, that would just turn them into paladins minus actually needing keys. Paladins with keys would still be just as good (probably better since they wouldn't be limited by knives). So that isn't the solution. Instead, I suggest the following.

1) Make it so that special, silver, forged, and any other weapon types are no longer sold by stores. Only bronze, iron, slim, and maybe near the endgame, base 1-2 range and steel weapons can be bought.

2) Remove the ability to sell weapons and items with combat uses.

3) Increase the cost of remaining items to the point where it is fiscally infeasible to field a full team without a thief doing at least some stealing.

4) Increase the number of stealable weapons and items to the point where it is possible to outfit a army with them instead of just a few random steals.

By doing this you will make the steal ability something of great value as it will be the best way to outfit the army and the only way to field a full army for the playthrough. This can be handled easily story-wise by making it a rebel army fighting against a oppressive empire that doesn't let blacksmiths work with anything above iron but keeps their own troops well-armed.

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The way I see it, there is a very simple way to make thieves a lot more valuable that doesn't even require a change in how the class functions. The problem isn't the thieves themselves, but rather how their ability is handled. Even if thieves got canto, mounted movement, and became more useable in combat, that would just turn them into paladins minus actually needing keys. Paladins with keys would still be just as good (probably better since they wouldn't be limited by knives). So that isn't the solution. Instead, I suggest the following.

1) Make it so that special, silver, forged, and any other weapon types are no longer sold by stores. Only bronze, iron, slim, and maybe near the endgame, base 1-2 range and steel weapons can be bought.

2) Remove the ability to sell weapons and items with combat uses.

3) Increase the cost of remaining items to the point where it is fiscally infeasible to field a full team without a thief doing at least some stealing.

4) Increase the number of stealable weapons and items to the point where it is possible to outfit a army with them instead of just a few random steals.

By doing this you will make the steal ability something of great value as it will be the best way to outfit the army and the only way to field a full army for the playthrough. This can be handled easily story-wise by making it a rebel army fighting against a oppressive empire that doesn't let blacksmiths work with anything above iron but keeps their own troops well-armed.

So basically, it's a worse version of Thracia 776's thieving and capturing system?

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So in other words, you want FE5's system just with steal in place of capture?

EDIT: Haha, Clockwork Sage thought the same thing that I did.

Edited by The Humungus

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I wouldn't know as I never played FE5. What I do know is that increasing their combat power, giving them canto, and giving them mounted movement doesn't actually make them better, just makes them paladins that don't need keys.

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I will happily disagree and say that picking locks and stealing stuff is minor. It's what makes a thief a thief. 15% Strength growth won't change the fact that thieves steal stuff (but it would make stealing heavier weapons easier in Tellius).

Though that's ignoring that if Theives gained higher strength they could make other sword wielding classes obsolete in comparison. Regardless of how bad their combat is, stealing and for the most part chest unlocking makes them unique and worth taking. But if they are as good as Myrmidons there would be almost no reason not to take them over a Myrmidon.

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I wouldn't know as I never played FE5. What I do know is that increasing their combat power, giving them canto, and giving them mounted movement doesn't actually make them better, just makes them paladins that don't need keys.

lol I only mentioned the donkey as a joke

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The idea behind my suggestions was mainly to make it so that the utility function of the thief gets increased. I acknowledge I'm not the most well-informed, but it seems to me that stealing seems largely superficial. Most of the things you can steal are either basic weapons or items that can be sold for gold, especially in the games with auto-promote (thusly lowering the value of items that allow you to promote). On rare occasion you get a weapon that does something unique, but is largely impractical (horses layers or the like). You have enough money to buy almost everything you want anyways, so there's no need to steal the items for monetary value, and no need for the weapons as you can easily use steel/silver weapons anyways and the added difficulty of luring out a enemy and not killing them just to steal makes it not worth it (not to mention killing turn counts). By limiting the number of weapons you can purchase the need to steal weapons suddenly increases as it is needed to acquire any weapon of decent power. Incidentally, it also makes weapons with specialized uses more valuable since they will be a lot more powerful than your basic iron/bronze weapon. Increasing the price of weapons makes every individual weapon more valuable since it costs more to replace, making stealing more appealing a option. 1000 gold for a iron axe, or stealing? Removing the sale of combat items makes gold harder to acquire, making those few sellable items worth far more on the steal as well as your basic iron weapons.

Let's face it, the problem isn't the thief class itself. The class is fine. It's that their primary utility has been effectively eviscerated by chest-keys and weapons that are easily available that trump anything steal able. It's like having a class that gets a huge bonus when fighting on water, but is otherwise weak, then having only three maps with a tiny trickle of water in the entire game.

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The idea behind my suggestions was mainly to make it so that the utility function of the thief gets increased. I acknowledge I'm not the most well-informed, but it seems to me that stealing seems largely superficial. Most of the things you can steal are either basic weapons or items that can be sold for gold, especially in the games with auto-promote (thusly lowering the value of items that allow you to promote). On rare occasion you get a weapon that does something unique, but is largely impractical (horses layers or the like). You have enough money to buy almost everything you want anyways, so there's no need to steal the items for monetary value, and no need for the weapons as you can easily use steel/silver weapons anyways and the added difficulty of luring out a enemy and not killing them just to steal makes it not worth it (not to mention killing turn counts). By limiting the number of weapons you can purchase the need to steal weapons suddenly increases as it is needed to acquire any weapon of decent power. Incidentally, it also makes weapons with specialized uses more valuable since they will be a lot more powerful than your basic iron/bronze weapon. Increasing the price of weapons makes every individual weapon more valuable since it costs more to replace, making stealing more appealing a option. 1000 gold for a iron axe, or stealing? Removing the sale of combat items makes gold harder to acquire, making those few sellable items worth far more on the steal as well as your basic iron weapons.

Let's face it, the problem isn't the thief class itself. The class is fine. It's that their primary utility has been effectively eviscerated by chest-keys and weapons that are easily available that trump anything steal able. It's like having a class that gets a huge bonus when fighting on water, but is otherwise weak, then having only three maps with a tiny trickle of water in the entire game.

Again, this is practically fe5 minus capture (probably with + some build on the thieves). Don't get me wrong, it would help the thief class a fair amount for utility value and that's a positive. I just find it interesting.

The trouble with making more valuable weapons on the enemies is, well, that there are more valuable weapons they are using against you. Going up against an army of silvers and killers is not fun.

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Thieves should be given an infinite use 3-10 range brave tome that ignores enemy res and is effective against armors, cavaliers and bosses.

Edited by Vykan12

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