FE12 H2 Tier List

[Dark Sage]

Rules:

-If you are to rank a unit, we are assuming they will be deployed. I can't believe I have to actually say this, but this is to prevent the sandbagging of units because they take away a deployment slot from another unit.

-Male Reclass Limits are unlocked

-No Arena Abuse or RNG abuse assumed

-Rainbow Potion is allowed to be used, but only up to four uses per chapter

-No Lunatic Mode Stat Boosters

-All Gaidens assumed

-The tier player is not perfect, but assuming we're doing idiotic stuff like letting Yubello solo a bunch of Wyverns or assuming our healers are getting attacked is a no no.

-While this list is measuring who contributes best to an efficient playthrough, we're not assuming we're going for the absolute minimum turn counts.

-All characters are assumed to be recruited unless they're in Bottom tier

-Prologue Utility is assumed with units. Which is why Est is in Low tier instead of in Bottom for example.

-Clock feature and the potions gained from support conversations do not exist.

-Recruitment costs are not assumed

-Warp is not used

Top

Malliesia

Male Cav MU

Fighter MU

Feena

Pegasus Knight MU

Female Cav MU

Knight MU

Paola

Catria

Male Mage MU

Female Mage MU

Merc MU

Myrm MU

Sirius

Archer MU

High

Sheeda

Doga

Arran

Marth

Luke

Yumina

Xane

Etzel

Julian

Rickard

Upper Mid

Merric

Rody

Cain

Ogma

Barst

Navarre

Minerva

Frey

Linde

Wendell

Ellerean

Mid

Gordon

Cecil

Ryan

George

Katarina

Darros

Leiden

Belf

Wrys

Roger

Low Mid

Castor

Malice

Robert

Dice

Nagi

Chiki

Low Tier

Athena

Warren

Jake

Bord

Cord

Est

Bottom Tier

Matthis

Caesar

Samto

Norne

Michalis

Horace

Radd

Yubello

Sheema

Macellan

Abel

Samson

Astram

Beck

Thomas

Sedgar

Wolf

Ymir

Midia

Frost

Roshe

Vyland

Bantu

Argue away.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Clockwork Sage

[-Cynthia-]

Male Archer and Female Archer should be separated (with Male above for Hunter/Horseman access).

I think Gordon is too high. 2 base Spd gives him...8 as a Hunter. You need 13 Spd to double in early H2 (14 for the Dracos). Even if he miraculously got 2 Spd procs from Prologue (40% Spd growth) the Rainbow Potion still won't cut it. 10% base Spd growth means that this issue isn't getting fixed very soon.

Cecil is probably a bit low. Her durability isn't so good, but at base Rody only has 1 HP and Def vs. Cecil's 3 Spd. Sword rank also means Cecil can more easily switch into faster classes (and has Lady Sword to boot) while Rody is forced to work out of E something as his Cavalier stats don't really cut it. Rody's better, if only for some Prologue utility, but there probably shouldn't be an entire tier between them.

Xane's copying skills are probably more valuable than Arran's earlygame and a number of other mediocre characters. He does join a little late, but I'd consider putting him at the Bottom of Top. He's a tough character to tier, but he's somewhat like a later joining Feena who can't act on turn 1, but has Enemy Phase and better Mov.

[Anouleth]

Why is Cord below Michalis when Cord exists for the entire game and requires you to go out of your way less? In fact, why is he below Bord who requires you to go more out of your way and is just a horrible unit (he gets doubled by Dracoknights, for instance, and he faces crit from basically everythin in the game)?

Also, why is Gordin below Jeorge? Surely it wouldn't be too hard for Gordin to promote for A Bows by the time you reach Jeorge? He needs 90WEXP, which is 45 battles. Not so impossible in his 8 chapters + Prologue. Gordin has earlygame use, is about as good when you get Jeorge, and doesn't cost a turn to recruit... although I guess there is the cost of taking an early Master Seal.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Anouleth

[Rewjeo]

How does the MU arrangement work? Is that what we start them as, but then they're free to change classes from there, or what class they're spending most of their time in, or...?

Edited October 13, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Anouleth]

How does the MU arrangement work? Is that what we start them as, but then they're free to change classes from there, or what class they're spending most of their time in, or...?

I assume the first. After all, there's no Pirate or Hunter listed.

I think that Female Mage should be above Male Mage. Resire and Aura are better than Excalibur, aren't they?

Edited October 13, 2011 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

I assume the first. After all, there's no Pirate or Hunter listed.

I think that Female Mage should be above Male Mage. Resire and Aura are better than Excalibur, aren't they?

That largely depends if Female Mage can survive a round and double the enemies.

[Aquilae]

Jeorge doesn't cost a turn to recruit, since both Marth and Gordin can recruit him. Cav!Gordin can reach him faster than Marth and recruit him, instead of wasting one turn and having Marth recruit him.

[-Cynthia-]

That largely depends if Female Mage can survive a round and double the enemies.

Surviving a round generally isn't an issue, but doubling is (except for knights maybe). Mages don't have very high base Spd.

I assumed recruitment costs weren't factored into a unit's position myself.

[Colonel M]

I usually hate asking these kind of questions, but how is Est in Low Tier and not in Bottom?

[arvilino]

I think you've missed Dolph off the list. Maybe put him just above Yubello or perhaps Radd.

[Dark Sage]

Why is Cord below Michalis when Cord exists for the entire game and requires you to go out of your way less? In fact, why is he below Bord who requires you to go more out of your way and is just a horrible unit (he gets doubled by Dracoknights, for instance, and he faces crit from basically everythin in the game)?

Also, why is Gordin below Jeorge? Surely it wouldn't be too hard for Gordin to promote for A Bows by the time you reach Jeorge? He needs 90WEXP, which is 45 battles. Not so impossible in his 8 chapters + Prologue. Gordin has earlygame use, is about as good when you get Jeorge, and doesn't cost a turn to recruit... although I guess there is the cost of taking an early Master Seal.

Cord's a pretty horrible unit for his entire existence, never doubling and having E axes with bad durability. Bord is also terrible, but he has Hammer usage for Chapters 3x and 6 I guess. Michalis has good enough bases that he can serve as a filler unit in Endgame, which could be useful.

I actually do agree with you that Gordon should be higher, but Cynthia does raise some good points. I am receptive to hear more from either side about it though.

@Colonel M: Est is in the bottom of Low and not in Bottom because she has Prologue utility, which is more than all the scrubs below her can say.

Also recruitment costs are not counted towards a character. Let me add that rule in right now.

[Colonel M]

@Colonel M: Est is in the bottom of Low and not in Bottom because she has Prologue utility, which is more than all the scrubs below her can say.

Derp, forgot she exists in Prologue, my bad. Though, I'm not sure why she's below some of the units that she is. Since I only have a rough estimate with Lunatic Mode...

- Michalis cannot be attacked or he risks dying of a critical hit. HOWEVER, he is able to use Dragonpike / Brave weapons. Still, that's not saying a lot since he oddly lacks the Str to ORKO sorcerers without the use of forges (yeah, I don't get it either).

- Horace kind of sucks dick to begin with. He has no use in his joining chapter and the only close-to-redeeming quality he has is he can use Dragonpike as a DracoKnight. With 13 base Speed. 26 HP | 12 Def is pretty trashy too; he's ORKOed by Flying Dragons. He might do okay in Chapter 12... if the Fire Dragons don't have 17 AS or he procs a Spd point. I guess he always has Sniper for back up, but he'll need a bow forge to work out. His growths are a little shaky with his bases too. Let's not forget he starts at a 2 level deficit, has 6 base Spd, and about the most he has is a 60% Spd growth as a Sniper / Berserker / Swordmaster. Two of those three don't even carry his initial weapon ranks, and the third one just helps him push a little closer to Silver Bows. The only way he can pull out of a being doubled rut as a Sniper is through a Rainbow Potion use, and the Dragons have 1 range in this mode, which further cripples Horace as a Sniper.

- Bord has even more marginal utility. His only real functions consist of maybe helping kill Chapter 3's boss (if he can make it, which I think he can), and helping push through 3X during a turn.

- I'd probably even push for over Jake. Jake's only real perk is that he's got Silver Bows as a Sniper and his Spd growth is higher. Jake has even WORSE bases as a unit and it's questionable how he can be trained efficiently, at least in my opinion.

I understand Est only has one chapter of utility (P-8), which is technically short, but I don't see how she completely loses to these schmucks aside from potential (or in Bord's case a utility specific situation).

I'm also a little confused here:

Male Cav MU

Fighter MU

Feena

Pegasus Knight MU

Female Cav MU

Knight MU

Perhaps I'm missing something in H2, but is there concrete evidence that Male Cav MU surpasses Fighter and Knight MU, Prologue-wise? I even question Female Cavalier and Pegasus Knight being up there since they were pretty gimped in H3 (hell, I think Female Cavalier is bound "useless" and Pegasus Knight is pretty damn close).

I'm more leery on Xane being over Etzel, to be honest. Etzel saves a shitload of turns in this game; almost to the point where he almost hits Top Tier material in Lunatic Tier List (if it wasn't for Unique Utility). Etzel has Excalibur to burst through flying enemies in Chapter 11 (hell he pulls almost most of the work) and is the main Rescue staff user for the majority of Chapters. Aside from Yumina and Malliesia, he's the closest unit you have to getting B Staves at a reasonable time. The amount of turns he saves is not only significant with regards to turns, but also makes the chapters easier and more reliable to succeed.

Marth is also a little bit high in my opinion, but I can't think of ways to drop him at the moment.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Colonel M

[Dark Sage]

Derp, forgot she exists in Prologue, my bad. Though, I'm not sure why she's below some of the units that she is. Since I only have a rough estimate with Lunatic Mode...

- Michalis cannot be attacked or he risks dying of a critical hit. HOWEVER, he is able to use Dragonpike / Brave weapons. Still, that's not saying a lot since he oddly lacks the Str to ORKO sorcerers without the use of forges (yeah, I don't get it either).

- Horace kind of sucks dick to begin with. He has no use in his joining chapter and the only close-to-redeeming quality he has is he can use Dragonpike as a DracoKnight. With 13 base Speed. 26 HP | 12 Def is pretty trashy too; he's ORKOed by Flying Dragons. He might do okay in Chapter 12... if the Fire Dragons don't have 17 AS or he procs a Spd point. I guess he always has Sniper for back up, but he'll need a bow forge to work out. His growths are a little shaky with his bases too. Let's not forget he starts at a 2 level deficit, has 6 base Spd, and about the most he has is a 60% Spd growth as a Sniper / Berserker / Swordmaster. Two of those three don't even carry his initial weapon ranks, and the third one just helps him push a little closer to Silver Bows. The only way he can pull out of a being doubled rut as a Sniper is through a Rainbow Potion use, and the Dragons have 1 range in this mode, which further cripples Horace as a Sniper.

- Bord has even more marginal utility. His only real functions consist of maybe helping kill Chapter 3's boss (if he can make it, which I think he can), and helping push through 3X during a turn.

- I'd probably even push for over Jake. Jake's only real perk is that he's got Silver Bows as a Sniper and his Spd growth is higher. Jake has even WORSE bases as a unit and it's questionable how he can be trained efficiently, at least in my opinion.

I understand Est only has one chapter of utility (P-8), which is technically short, but I don't see how she completely loses to these schmucks aside from potential (or in Bord's case a utility specific situation).

This makes sense to me, but let's see if there are any opposing arguments to this.

I'm also a little confused here:

Perhaps I'm missing something in H2, but is there concrete evidence that Male Cav MU surpasses Fighter and Knight MU, Prologue-wise? I even question Female Cavalier and Pegasus Knight being up there since they were pretty gimped in H3 (hell, I think Female Cavalier is bound "useless" and Pegasus Knight is pretty damn close).

I actually wanted to take a cue from the Lunatic Mode list just tier Male MU and Female MU instead of splitting each of the different class choices. Cynthia suggested otherwise though.

I'm more leery on Xane being over Etzel, to be honest. Etzel saves a shitload of turns in this game; almost to the point where he almost hits Top Tier material in Lunatic Tier List (if it wasn't for Unique Utility). Etzel has Excalibur to burst through flying enemies in Chapter 11 (hell he pulls almost most of the work) and is the main Rescue staff user for the majority of Chapters. Aside from Yumina and Malliesia, he's the closest unit you have to getting B Staves at a reasonable time. The amount of turns he saves is not only significant with regards to turns, but also makes the chapters easier and more reliable to succeed.

Agreed.

[Anouleth]

Why isn't Malliesia top of top, by the way? Using Hammerne on the Warp staff is probably the single most valuable contribution in the entire game.

Cord's a pretty horrible unit for his entire existence, never doubling and having E axes with bad durability. Bord is also terrible, but he has Hammer usage for Chapters 3x and 6 I guess.

Cord will just have to settle for being better in basically every other chapter in the game due to having way higher speed. If Cord is apparently so hideously slow that he's not doubling anything ever, then Bord who has 6 less speed at 20/1 can only be getting doubled by everything in the game.

Michalis has good enough bases that he can serve as a filler unit in Endgame, which could be useful.

And Cord only needs to be level 20/1 to shitstomp Michalis statistically. Michalis' defense lead is of almost no consequence given that his luck means every enemy in the game can critical him. Plus, who gives a shit about Endgame when we have Warp.

-When arguing for how well about how two units perform with a resource, you must use a statistical comparison between both units as if they had gotten it.

This seems suspect. If I want to Wing Palla, does that mean I have to give Wings to Catria and Malliesia and Feena as well?

Edited October 13, 2011 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

You know what's the worst thing about this? I forgot about Warp's existence in H2. XD

Hell yes to Malliesia for Top of Top.

Edited October 13, 2011 by Colonel M

[dondon151]

I don't know how fast H2 enemies are, but Cord has a respectable 10 spd base and 70% spd growth as a pirate, so I doubt that he won't be able to double given some effort. It's his lack of weapon ranks that is the big problem.

[Anouleth]

You know what's the worst thing about this? I forgot about Warp's existence in H2. XD

Hell yes to Malliesia for Top of Top.

So did I! I mean, you get it in Chapter 14, and you have 5 repair uses, so you should have plenty of uses to warpskip... basically the rest of the entire game.

[Wen Yang]

Cord's lack of weapon rank is a serious annoyance though. even in H1 I have issues trying to have him kill things. Sure, he doubles a lot, but without serious forges he won't deal much damage.

That, and his lack of movement. I think in FE11/12 units that don't do well as a mounted unit just can compete too much with the mounted ones as speedruns go, excepting warp abuse.

[Colonel M]

Actually, if we assume Warpskip, the tier list needs serious revamp. I'd decide on the path we're taking before going much further.

[-Cynthia-]

Perhaps I'm missing something in H2, but is there concrete evidence that Male Cav MU surpasses Fighter and Knight MU, Prologue-wise? I even question Female Cavalier and Pegasus Knight being up there since they were pretty gimped in H3 (hell, I think Female Cavalier is bound "useless" and Pegasus Knight is pretty damn close).

The Mov makes a bigger difference in H2 than in H3 because it's easier for MU to solo large portions of the map. Personally I've found that Cavaliers generally have solid durability while having doubling potential (depends on the order of the Str/Def/Spd boosts). Knights have better defense, but are on the verge of getting doubled and have worse offense (no chance at doubling in Prologue, cannot reach enemies quickly on some of the later maps). Peg Knight is a bit less durable and has less Str than Male Cav, but can fly around before promotion and has generally better Spd. Female Cav has a better sword rank (which makes killing armors easier, allows for Lady Sword access, makes a better SM late game) than Male Cav. Lances are probably better to have ranks in than swords, since it makes the midgame Dracoknight more powerful and there are more Silver Lances than other high level weapon types early, but Female Cav/Myrm/Merc are still good enough to be better than Catria for example (since they'll likely have slightly better stats and help clear Prologue to boot).

By comparison, Fighters are more easily 2RKOd and have 3 less Mov in exchange for more reliable ORKOing. Axes are a mixed bag generally. Before promotion, axers are stuck to 6 Mov classes if they don't want E weapon ranks. Dracoknight can be useful for a while, but Fighter probably won't have C Lances (thus making it harder to land OHKOs with forges) and we'll have to drop Dracoknight eventually because of the Spd cap problems. I found Paladins a pretty good class in H2, 25 Spd cap can carry all the way to Chapter 20 or so and having a high Lance rank helps with this. Of course a Fighter could just reclass to Cavalier and build lances that way, but t

I'm more leery on Xane being over Etzel, to be honest. Etzel saves a shitload of turns in this game; almost to the point where he almost hits Top Tier material in Lunatic Tier List (if it wasn't for Unique Utility). Etzel has Excalibur to burst through flying enemies in Chapter 11 (hell he pulls almost most of the work) and is the main Rescue staff user for the majority of Chapters. Aside from Yumina and Malliesia, he's the closest unit you have to getting B Staves at a reasonable time. The amount of turns he saves is not only significant with regards to turns, but also makes the chapters easier and more reliable to succeed.

We can replace Etzel with Wendell with very few consequences (Wendell can OHKO Flying Dragons with Excalibur, has the same staff rank etc.) Xane mimics our best unit. Sure we can use Etzel to Again staff, but we can use Katarina or Wendell or whoever to the same effect.

WRT pulling flying enemies, Etzel can only pull one a turn before dying most likely, whereas Dracoknight MU/Catria/Palla/Caeda/Sirius/Minerva can take on more than one a turn and most likely ORKO (either via doubling or with forges), and they can do it with 4 more Mov. Exaclibur utility isn't as useful as it is in H3 because Flying Dragons attack at 1 range instead of 1-2 range.

I was thinking the list had Warp banned.

[Dark Sage]

@Anouleth: Your arguments seem reasonable enough and I think I'll swap Cord's and Micahlis's places for now. As for this:

This seems suspect. If I want to Wing Palla, does that mean I have to give Wings to Catria and Malliesia and Feena as well?

No it doesn't. I just worded it poorly. What I mean is, if you are comparing two characters to see who should get a resource, you should compare them as if they had both gotten it to see which one is a better recipient of it. It's similar to this rule from Colonel M's FE6 list:

Two Characters Competing For a Promotional Item Are Compared as Having Gotten it For Stat Comparison

@Cynthia: All this means is that Wendell needs to go up, not that Etzel needs to go down. IIRC, Wyverns have 1-2 range, not just 1 range.

@All: Just so we're clear, I'll put this in bold letters:

This is NOT a Warpskip tier list

On antoher note, I'll try to gather H2 enemy data this weekend.

[-Cynthia-]

Wyverns have 1 range on H2. I don't really have a way of proving this I guess, except saying you can check C11 and on yourself.

[Anouleth]

@Anouleth: Your arguments seem reasonable enough and I think I'll swap Cord's and Micahlis's places for now. As for this:

I still think he should be above Bord at least. Bord has a temporary attack lead that only persists as long as he stays in the rather meh Fighter/Pirate classes, while Cord is beating him in durability and often offense.

No it doesn't. I just worded it poorly. What I mean is, if you are comparing two characters to see who should get a resource, you should compare them as if they had both gotten it to see which one is a better recipient of it.

But it's absurd. Just because Palla is a better recipient of an Energy Drop than Malliesia doesn't mean anything. It doesn't mean she should get it.

This is NOT a Warpskip tier list

"-While this list is measuring who contributes best to an efficient playthrough, we're not assuming we're going for the absolute minimum turn counts."

Efficient playthroughs use Warp, and they use Warp on Marth. It's inefficient to use it any other way since it saves by far the most turns when used on Marth and a boss-killing character. Certainly, the turn-saving value of Malliesia is the best in the game in this environment. Even if we don't assume that we're going to be getting the absolute minimum turncounts, being able to produce them (as Malliesia does) is still very powerful.

And you should probably add it to the OP if you want to specifically forbid Warp.

[Dark Sage]

Changes made:

Removed the resource rule, added "No Warp rule"

Moved Cord to above Est, Michalis and Horace moved to bottom tier.

@Anouleth: You'll have to debate this with Cynthia. Originally in an early draft of the list, I forgot Bord, but planned on putting him below Cord when Cynthia notified me of my error. She wanted Bord above Cord though, and I figured, "they're both useless, but a bit of utility MIGHT be better than Cord's whatever the hell he does."

[Anouleth]

Changes made:

Removed the resource rule, added "No Warp rule"

Moved Cord to above Est, Michalis and Horace moved to bottom tier.

@Anouleth: You'll have to debate this with Cynthia. Originally in an early draft of the list, I forgot Bord, but planned on putting him below Cord when Cynthia notified me of my error. She wanted Bord above Cord though, and I figured, "they're both useless, but a bit of utility MIGHT be better than Cord's whatever the hell he does."

I don't deny that Bord is better than Cord in a few maps where he can pull out the Hammer, but in the majority of cases, Cord is better. If you're going to apply the rule on deploying characters in every chapter, and presumably, consistently using Cord and Bord throughout the game, then Cord is definitely better. It's up to you whether you want the tier list to take that into account, I guess.