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Meg: Why such hate?

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Figures he played the Japanese version, or likes that name better.

Celice has an irrational adherence to names in the Japanese versions despite it being both irksome and inconvenient to others. Pay no heed.

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You mean forever.

No, what I mean is that characters have so much move by third tier (maybe even second) that Meg's minor deficit is hardly notable, save for a few chapters (one of them, the desert chapter on part 4, you don't even have to field her in).

Meg is very much usable, no doubt about that, but there's virtually nothing valuable in her. The worst movement type, completely lopsided growths and caps, bad bases...it's been said already.

Well, let me put it this way.

You get Meg early in part 1. She, as a sword user, probably competes most directly with Edward. Her bases hardly suck, although her starting level slightly does. She starts out with 10 (TEN) defense, and ends up with around 14-16 on average going into 1-E if you bother to train her. This is combined with her 50-60 avoid baseline (varies a bit due to biorhythm), capped resistance, and her ability never to be crit by anything ever. She comes standard with a goddamn equivalent of an iron rune from FE7.

By the time each of them promotes, the only thing Edward has going over her is like 1 SPD (both still double reliably), 0.65 STR, slightly better move, and better SKL (which realistically doesn't come into play except when wind sword is used). Meg is looking at more health, better evasion (due to notably better luck), 5.3 more DEF, and 7 more RES, making her way more reliable and way less likely to die. In the end, I ditch Edward and go with Meg, as she's way easier to train past the first chapter after you get her and ends up better overall by 1-E.

Meg is also better against every other enemy sans the last three bosses once both hit near level cap, as she has an unquestionably better mastery skill (guaranteed one-shot ability), 5 more health, 2.25 more STR, 8 more defense, and DOUBLE the resistance, giving up 8 SKL and SPD. However, she ends up doubling pretty much everything in the game until the last 5 minutes or so (goddess and some of those werid magic swirly ball things), even though she still gets a 1/3 chance to instantly kill anything that doesn't have Nihil, and higher than that if you feed her adept.

Yeah, you're right, she's terrible.

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as much as i love meg, why would you give her adept?

i'm certain an swordmaster could make better use of it, less your not using swordmasters.

don't take me wrong, i think she's an great unit on normal mode, hardmode just makes her impossible to train and tier lists revolve around hardmode...therefore every hardmode player hates meg.

its a really easy concept to understand.

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What level is Edward when you get Meg? Because Ed sure ain't base level when she shows.

EDIT: Also, Zihark.

EDIT2: Heh, just found out that Meg's DEF growth is IDENTICAL to Edward's. That's ...not so great.

Edited by Integrity

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No, what I mean is that characters have so much move by third tier (maybe even second) that Meg's minor deficit is hardly notable, save for a few chapters (one of them, the desert chapter on part 4, you don't even have to field her in).

No. Meg has less move than everyone (builds up over time), takes worse movement penalties from terrain than anyone, and isn't easily Shoved. This is not "minor" in any way; Meg's move sucks.

She, as a sword user, probably competes most directly with Edward.

Irrelevant. She competes with everyone. Specific weapon use doesn't matter past who gets what weapon.

Her bases hardly suck, although her starting level slightly does.

What? A low base level is better for considering it means she levels up faster. You previously mentioned she needed to get Spd just to avoid being doubled; that is the sign of bad bases, or at least Spd. Her Def is okay but HP is mediocre to bad and her growths in both aren't very good, either. Her Str is also okay but bad when you consider she uses Swords.

Her bases suck.

and her ability never to be crit by anything ever. She comes standard with a goddamn equivalent of an iron rune from FE7.

Better ripped off and sold for 3k.

By the time each of them promotes, the only thing Edward has going over her is like 1 SPD (both still double reliably), 0.65 STR, slightly better move, and better SKL (which realistically doesn't come into play except when wind sword is used).

Problem: Assuming Meg and Edward reach 20/1 at the same time. No. Edward starts at a higher level, earlier in the game, is better at killing enemies due to doubling much more easily, and has better mobility in every way. Meg is not realistically promoting from 20 with Edward.

Meg is also better against every other enemy sans the last three bosses once both hit near level cap, as she has an unquestionably better mastery skill (guaranteed one-shot ability), 5 more health, 2.25 more STR, 8 more defense, and DOUBLE the resistance, giving up 8 SKL and SPD. However, she ends up doubling pretty much everything in the game until the last 5 minutes or so (goddess and some of those werid magic swirly ball things), even though she still gets a 1/3 chance to instantly kill anything that doesn't have Nihil, and higher than that if you feed her adept.

The only really accurate thing here is a better mastery. Meg (at least not a favored one) will always be behind in level due to poor stats, particularly Spd, which her caps always hinder and make doubling difficult, and bad mobility everywhere she goes. By the time they're third tier stuff like Def and Res don't mean too much especially since Edward grows into pretty great avoid and caps his Str much earlier than Meg is able to catch up (including being less prone to screwage) and start winning. He also makes much better use of Adept due to higher Spd.

Yeah, you're right, she's terrible.

She sure is.

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I hate babying units unless I /really/ like them as a character. Like if Ayra started out as a thief rather than a swordfighter and thus far shittier bases, I'd still use her because she's Ayra. But Meg's character doesn't really stand out to me at all, and honestly, my playstyle, while one wouldn't call it "efficient" by any means, is basically rush the fuck out of things and meg kinda sucks at that. If a unit requires too much effort and isn't a character I'm fond of by means of personality, yeah screw that shit.

Edited by Luminescent Blade

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Better ripped off and sold for 3k.

Better ripped off and shipped to the Mercs and sold for 3k!

You forgot a critical step.

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No. Meg has less move than everyone (builds up over time), takes worse movement penalties from terrain than anyone, and isn't easily Shoved. This is not "minor" in any way; Meg's move sucks.

First, her move isn't so bad that I've ever had any real problems with her on Part 1 (IIRC, every foot unit on the Dawn Brigade has 5 Mov, she just ends up losing movement in 2 chapters total in part 1, the latter of which doesn't even have that many enemies or is really difiicult anyways or even allows you to field more than a handful of units). The phrase "overblowing it" comes to mind here. At third tier, she's 6 move versus 7. Considering I don't know of many situations where people consistently move max distance on part 4, if not from the enemy density alone. Meg never had problems keeping up, and I'm meeting the turn limits for bonus experience at least (not an efficiency playthrough, but definitely not casual either).

Irrelevant. She competes with everyone. Specific weapon use doesn't matter past who gets what weapon.

So by that token, Laura competes with Nolan, Ilyana competes with Jill, and Micaiah competes with Sothe. Since, you know, any difference between units don't matter and they all don't play different roles in a team or anything. Point is, Edward and Meg MOST CLOSELY compete with one another because they serve the same role (melee unit) that compete for the same weapons.

But let me be generous and say everybody competes (although Laura gains experience without stealing it from anybody else). I can usually reasonably level up about...3 tier 1 guys in part 1,

Aran - He never doubles early-game, from my experience. This makes his offense really poor (since he never actually doubles anything ever) and his low evasion kind of makes Meg almost as durable as him, although more RNG dependent. Generally outclassed by or at best matches Neph.

Jill - Liked her in PoR, but not here. @ 20/--/--, she less STR, less LUK, less/equal SPD, less LUK, less DEF, less RES than Meg, 1 more SKL than Meg. Haar is better.

Leonardo - Do I even have to make an argument here? Come on.

Nolan - He's solid. I stick with him.

Mickey - Essentially forced.

Ilyana - Terrible speed and mediocre mastery skill makes her worthless end-game.

Fiona - Makes Leonardo look good.

Vika/Tormod - Poor availablility.

I don't know about you, but that leaves Edward/Meg fighting for third spot.

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(IIRC, every foot unit on the Dawn Brigade has 5 Mov, she just ends up losing movement in 2 chapters total in part 1, the latter of which doesn't even have that many enemies or is really difiicult anyways or even allows you to field more than a handful of units)

That would be incorrect. The only foot units who have less than 6 move are armors, mages and I think a few unplayable classes. Every other class has 6 or more.

EDIT: A few Laguz classes have 5 move as well. I forgot about them.

Edited by Charlie

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First, her move isn't so bad that I've ever had any real problems with her on Part 1 (IIRC, every foot unit on the Dawn Brigade has 5 Mov, she just ends up losing movement in 2 chapters total in part 1,

Excuse me, sir, your facts are wrong. Only the squishies have 5 MOV, the rest have 6. Meg has 5. Additionally, the other fights can all be pushed around for extra MOV (by Meg, no less) and Meg gets reamed on any terrain that isn't Floor. Ledges? Ha. Reeds? She's paying 3 MOV (out of her 5) instead of 2 out of anybody else's 6. What map in P1, post-Meg, has none of ledges nor reeds nor sand? You can make a case for 1-8 since there exists a simple path without terrain, and that's it. Additionally, when anybody (including Meg, granted) promotes, they gain 1 MOV. This means that Zihark and Sothe not only have FAR better MOV types (and are lighter), they're faster than her by 2. Jill? Uh, 8 Flying?

As for the second part, do you know how asinine that sounds? Of course Meg competes with other land-based physical fighters, you're not indulging RFoF here. To say that Meg's only competition is Edward (by the way, you still forgot Zihark) is just silly. Onwards to how you're wrong:

Meg's SPD base is 8, her growth 65%. Aran (who you deride) has a base of 10 and a growth of 35%. Pretending nothing else, Meg needs two BEXP levels (or, on average, five CEXP levels) just to catch Aran's base. There's also the problem of if you pour those BEXP levels into her (hell, if you pour CEXP levels into her it's likely) her STR growth is still 35%. That makes it her tied for second-worst growth next to DEF. Yeah, we're not BEXPing that up until she caps, uh, a lot of other stuff. What about Aran? He destroys Meg in STR, SKL, and DEF. He also comes with 1-2 range. Do you know how nice 1-2 range is? It's very nice.

Actually, weren't you saying how great Meg's DEF is? Aran's is higher. And his growth is way better (no seriously, it's double).

Why are we comparing Jill to Haar? Haar doesn't exist in the DB chapters where Meg is allegedly a tiny Ohman goddess.

But you're also comparing Jill to Meg. Okay. Except that you're comparing having raised a level 3 character to 20 with having raised a level four-fucking-teen character to 20. Do you not realize how ridiculous this is? You've given Meg 17 levels and Jill 6. That's almost ONE-THIRD. Realistically, by the time Meg is 20/-- (let's pretend we're raising her and Jill at the exact same rate somehow) Jill's gonna be promoted and then some.

Oh, also, Jill has that delicious thing called 1-2 range. Unless Meg calls dibs on the one Wind Edge in early Part 1.

Oh, and also Jill flies.

I could type more, but I don't feel like it right now.

Edited by Integrity

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Oh, also, Jill has that delicious thing called 1-2 range. Unless Meg calls dibs on the one Wind Edge in early Part 1.

There's only two chapters where Meg is competing for wind edges, 1-4 and 1-6. After that, there should be enough for her even if you're using both Edward and Zihark, I think...but I still think she's close to worthless.

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Excuse me, sir, your facts are wrong. Only the squishies have 5 MOV, the rest have 6. Meg has 5. Additionally, the other fights can all be pushed around for extra MOV (by Meg, no less) and Meg gets reamed on any terrain that isn't Floor. Ledges? Ha. Reeds? She's paying 3 MOV (out of her 5) instead of 2 out of anybody else's 6. What map in P1, post-Meg, has none of ledges nor reeds nor sand? You can make a case for 1-8 since there exists a simple path without terrain, and that's it. Additionally, when anybody (including Meg, granted) promotes, they gain 1 MOV. This means that Zihark and Sothe not only have FAR better MOV types (and are lighter), they're faster than her by 2. Jill? Uh, 8 Flying?

Sorry, I'm chalking that down to playing Blazing Sword so much recently. For some stupid reason, I was thinking only knights got bumped up one speed.

As for maps, Meg has NO problems whatsoever with fighting (and gaining experience on) 1-4, 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-7, and 1-E. She has problems on 1-5 and 1-8, and 1-9 is Micaiah only anyways. Edward's durability seems to bite him in the ass on 1-8, from my experience, leaving the only map he's certainly more fieldable in as 1-5, simply because he can get up on the ledge and start sniping with wind sword from above earlier than Meg and also benefits from the avoidance boost, minimizing his durability issues.

As for the second part, do you know how asinine that sounds? Of course Meg competes with other land-based physical fighters, you're not indulging RFoF here. To say that Meg's only competition is Edward (by the way, you still forgot Zihark) is just silly. Onwards to how you're wrong:

Meg's SPD base is 8, her growth 65%. Aran (who you deride) has a base of 10 and a growth of 35%. Pretending nothing else, Meg needs two BEXP levels (or, on average, five CEXP levels) just to catch Aran's base. There's also the problem of if you pour those BEXP levels into her (hell, if you pour CEXP levels into her it's likely) her STR growth is still 35%. That makes it her tied for second-worst growth next to DEF. Yeah, we're not BEXPing that up until she caps, uh, a lot of other stuff. What about Aran? He destroys Meg in STR, SKL, and DEF. He also comes with 1-2 range. Do you know how nice 1-2 range is? It's very nice.

Actually, weren't you saying how great Meg's DEF is? Aran's is higher. And his growth is way better (no seriously, it's double).

Why are we comparing Jill to Haar? Haar doesn't exist in the DB chapters where Meg is allegedly a tiny Ohman goddess.

But you're also comparing Jill to Meg. Okay. Except that you're comparing having raised a level 3 character to 20 with having raised a level four-fucking-teen character to 20. Do you not realize how ridiculous this is? You've given Meg 17 levels and Jill 6. That's almost ONE-THIRD. Realistically, by the time Meg is 20/-- (let's pretend we're raising her and Jill at the exact same rate somehow) Jill's gonna be promoted and then some.

Oh, also, Jill has that delicious thing called 1-2 range. Unless Meg calls dibs on the one Wind Edge in early Part 1.

Oh, and also Jill flies.

I could type more, but I don't feel like it right now.

Where to start? Oh, yes:

ARAN NEVER DOUBLES. ARAN NEVER DOUBLES. ARAN....NEVER....DOUBLES. Which is the reason why his attack is so mediocre compared to Meg much of the time. He may hit for 4 more damage per hit, but she ends up hitting twice and (except on the highest defense units) does more damage. And on the two or so chapters where she doesn't double? You get a brave sword. It's almost as if the developers intended you to use it. I know, weird, right?

Aran's defense is better, but his evasion blows. While he's sitting at 4 more defense at 20/--/-- (I'm actually using this level because this is actually the most favorable level for him; his defense is only like 1 higher than Meg's at base and he's 4 levels higher), Meg has 60 evasion to his 40. He hardly commands a lead on defensive capabilites unless the enemy has stupidly high hit (and I mean stupidly high by HM standards). Never mind that Aran's at risk of being doubled on 1-E (don't a few enemies have like 17-18 speed on HM there? I remember it being rather ridiculous), while Meg can still double many of them using the brave sword or just naturally. And I didn't even menton her better resistance.

Also, comparing Jill's base level to Meg's base level is a little deceptive, mainly because Meg's level should be 5-6 going into the chapter where Jill is a green unit and probably 6-7 going out. Never mind that you seem to ignore the fact that Meg's lower level means that she'll get more experience than Jill and probably close the gap to realistically just a few levels.

Jill may fly, but her stats still suck. She never compares statistically to Meg at any equal standing in that regard, and by the time both hit third tier, she's replaced by Haar and Meg's looking at one-shotting dragons with her mastery. Take a guess which one I think is the better investment.

Also, I swore to god there was more than one wind edge in part 1. Actually, yeah, shops sell it on 1-5, 1-7, 1-8, 1-9, and 1-F. That's...five of them. So yeah. cool.gif

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First, her move isn't so bad that I've ever had any real problems with her on Part 1 (IIRC, every foot unit on the Dawn Brigade has 5 Mov, she just ends up losing movement in 2 chapters total in part 1, the latter of which doesn't even have that many enemies or is really difiicult anyways or even allows you to field more than a handful of units). The phrase "overblowing it" comes to mind here. At third tier, she's 6 move versus 7. Considering I don't know of many situations where people consistently move max distance on part 4, if not from the enemy density alone. Meg never had problems keeping up, and I'm meeting the turn limits for bonus experience at least (not an efficiency playthrough, but definitely not casual either).

What you've experienced means nothing. Facts are facts. Meg has one less move, takes worse terrain penalties, and is hard to Shove. Nothing about her movement is better than other classes. This is a disadvantage in a game where the goal is to reach and kill enemies.

So by that token, Laura competes with Nolan, Ilyana competes with Jill, and Micaiah competes with Sothe. Since, you know, any difference between units don't matter and they all don't play different roles in a team or anything.

Exactly. Integrity did well. Everyone under your control is being used for one specific purpose and all their contributions have different value.

Where to start? Oh, yes:

ARAN NEVER DOUBLES. ARAN NEVER DOUBLES. ARAN....NEVER....DOUBLES. Which is the reason why his attack is so mediocre compared to Meg much of the time. He may hit for 4 more damage per hit, but she ends up hitting twice and (except on the highest defense units) does more damage.

When does Meg double? When you've wasted time and resources pouring tons of experience into her? At least I can count on Aran to give a heavy hit and generally not die, because even a doubling Meg doesn't do much damage. Oh, he also uses stronger weapons. He can even cap three stats quite fast in second tier for good BEXPing.

And on the two or so chapters where she doesn't double? You get a brave sword. It's almost as if the developers intended you to use it. I know, weird, right?

...What are you even trying to say here? Anyway, Edward and Zihark.

Also, comparing Jill's base level to Meg's base level is a little deceptive, mainly because Meg's level should be 5-6 going into the chapter where Jill is a green unit and probably 6-7 going out. Never mind that you seem to ignore the fact that Meg's lower level means that she'll get more experience than Jill and probably close the gap to realistically just a few levels.

Jill's infinitely better mobility means she reaches more enemies and is also a much higher priority for resources. It evens out.

Jill may fly, but her stats still suck. She never compares statistically to Meg at any equal standing in that regard, and by the time both hit third tier, she's replaced by Haar and Meg's looking at one-shotting dragons with her mastery. Take a guess which one I think is the better investment.

Jill is never going to be replaced by Haar. Cut with this one-per-class bullcrap; I'd much prefer two fliers to a flier and armor. Jill has better growths and caps than meg and her mastery is just as good being Skl%. Pretending Meg is even close to being as good as Jill is naive.

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What you've experienced means nothing. Facts are facts. Meg has one less move, takes worse terrain penalties, and is hard to Shove. Nothing about her movement is better than other classes. This is a disadvantage in a game where the goal is to reach and kill enemies.

Already have admitted to my mistake concenring the 5 versus 6 move. And, in this case, experience does matter. PEMN applies to stats, because RNG means that you have to go by averages in order to have any valid comparison. But this isn't the case here. We already know the value of move, it's static, and now we have to make a comparison as to how harmful/not harmful Meg's 1 less MOV means in the end. How would you measure it? I'm just going with my personal experiences playing the maps on part 1 in both normal and hard modes -- you spend much of your time in many of those maps in a rather small area. In 1-4, it's the bottom-right corner, where Meg (if you're using her) should be tanking laguz and sniping a couple of kills, in 1-6-1, it's the bottom-right and the top-left corners, in 1-6-2, it's the bridge near the starting area, in 1-7, Meg can just go straight with somebody else and clear a path for the soliders (and it's a rare chapter where it's in your best interest to wait a couple turns to let the soldiers escape for bonus exp, IIRC), in 1-E, there's a crapload of enemies near the starting point and it's slow-going in general unless you just have Nailah and the Black Knight tear through the chapter.

Exactly. Integrity did well. Everyone under your control is being used for one specific purpose and all their contributions have different value.

Not...really. For a "facts are facts" person, you sure seem to be a fan of quantifying the unquantifyable. The general purpose of all characters is the same, but there are literally millions of different ways to do it ("to skin the cat", you could say). Each character can bring something different to a party, and have vastly different strengths/weaknesses, making comparisons difficult, if not rather futile. This is a reason why I think tier lists are largely crap except in a few specific circumstances, even if the general context of comparison is defined.

When does Meg double? When you've wasted time and resources pouring tons of experience into her? At least I can count on Aran to give a heavy hit and generally not die, because even a doubling Meg doesn't do much damage. Oh, he also uses stronger weapons. He can even cap three stats quite fast in second tier for good BEXPing.

I'm sorry, Aran is terrible. I'll believe that until the day I die, because I've seen a 20/-- version of him with about average speed get doubled in 1-F (and I'd gander cat laguz would too in part 3), at which point his minor defense advantage falls apart, especially considering Meg even has 50% more avoid by 20/-- (FYI, I'm just using 20/-- as a baseline. I can produce similar results at any level near that.)

There is something I have to say, which may be our point of disagreement. Meg HAS TO hit level 4 through BEXP and then level 5 over the next chapter or two (this isn't even hard enough to be considered babying, really). If she doesn't, don't even bother fielding her. That's honestly her biggest issue as a character, imo. After that, she takes care of herself. Stick her with a brave sword to use when she doesn't double (Aran, who can't also double at this point of the game, doesn't have this option, WHICH WAS MY POINT).

Also, Meg's biggest issue from personal experience is her low SKL. You just notice it less with her than Jill's low-ish SKL because she uses swords as opposed to Jill using axes, which is why I actually LIKE her using swords.

...What are you even trying to say here? Anyway, Edward and Zihark.

Edward has crap durability compared to Meg and comparable offensive capability when I analyze both at an equal level, and my Edward is usually like level 5 when Meg joins at level 3 in HM. If I were to spend the 300 BEXP I use on Meg to get her to "not doubled" level the next chapter on Edward, that drops to an approximately 1.6 level difference. Much ado about nothing. Never mind the whole "Edward blocks axes with his face" thing I find happens in the first few chapters makes it difficult to get him that high in level.

Jill's infinitely better mobility means she reaches more enemies and is also a much higher priority for resources. It evens out.

A unit with poor stats for most of the game, poor SKL in first tier in particular, with a weapon with generally poor accuracy makes it difficult to actually take advanatge of her higher move. When is Jill's move THAT useful in part 1? 1-6-1? Not in 1-6-2 so much, since she really gets whomped if she ever tries to take advantage of that extra move over the rest of your party, she can't even be fielded in 1-8, when you'd really want her, 1-9 in Mickey only, and 1-F is, as I've said again, slow-going or owned by a royal laguz.

Jill is never going to be replaced by Haar. Cut with this one-per-class bullcrap; I'd much prefer two fliers to a flier and armor. Jill has better growths and caps than meg and her mastery is just as good being Skl%. Pretending Meg is even close to being as good as Jill is naive.

Fair point on Jill vs. Haar, although I think two fliers is overkill myself (this is obviously more of a personal playstyle thing). Jill has neither better caps nor better growths than Meg -- they're both rather comparable (Jill's RES cap is TERRIBLE in comparison, for example). Also, Jill's mastery is objectively worse than Meg's. The activation rate of both is equal until 20/20/14, and Jill's is 3% higher at 20/20/20. 32% of triple damage + defense ignore versus 35% of triple damage + comparatively useless effect; former wins.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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(someone asked a page back why I call Fiona Freida--because after playing the Japanese version for a good amount of time, and talking about the Japanese version before the American version comes out, you tend to remember the character by their name--and also, "tough" doesn't really work, because both names are valid. It's not "tough" for players of the Japanese version to deal with someone using Fiona as her name. But if you can read the tiniest of kana, it's pretty obvious her name is no more 'Fiona' than it is 'Frederickson')

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Because I love the HM Enemy Stats threads, let's use one today. I know this is gonna get ninja'd because I took a break for dinner.

Let's use 1-6-1, 1-8, and 3-6 for our three comparisons today. Ring ring. I'm only going to use Meg, Jill, and Aran even though you're totally fucking ignoring Zihark.

DOUBLING: 1-6-1, the slowest enemy around is 11AS. Average is more like 13. Fastest is 17.

Meg needs to have gained 10 (I'm not making this up) levels to double the other Armors. If you want to pour BEXP into her (which is okay if we're going for the double point and nothing else) she needs 7 levels of BEXP. And every level of BEXP is a guaranteed level of no STR. But let's ignore that for now. Damage is later. To double the average, Meg needs to be level 19, or have gained 16 levels (or 10 points of SPD).

Aran needs to promote (hilarious, actually) to double the Armors. Yeah, he's never doubling. Point ceded. But let's not take it out of context.

Jill is at base level right now, but she'll still double the slowest Armor. An extra point (from one level at a 65% growth) and she's doubling all the armors. Jill has to be, just like Meg, level 18 to double the average. But, again, she's base right now. I'm not pouring all the BEXP in the world into her.

1-8, oh who doesn't love this map. Mages are still hovering at 12AS. The average is about 15. Fastest enemy is 18.

To double the slow-ass Mages, Meg needs to have 16 SPD. That's level 16 or 8 levels of BEXP or some combination of the two. The average requires 19, which she almost precisely attains at 20.

Aran is looking at never doubling, still.

Jill has had time to gain levels by now. That magic 16 SPD to double the shitty units requires 1 (one) level of SPD. To play consistent with the averages (and therefore not favorite Jill over Meg unnecessarily), Jill needs to gain 2 levels or 1 BEXP level. That's a lot less investment. The average of 19 requires her to be, well, 20/1. Jill's average SPD at 20/-- is 18.9 which tempted me sorely to round up but I decided not to because, again, consistency.

3-6 is the most fun. Lowest is 16, average is 20. 24 will get you doubling all Tigers and the slow Cats, which is fair to me.

Meg needs to be promoted to double the slowest Tigers. Hell, that's better than Aran and on par with Jill roughly. To reach 24 SPD Meg - OH WAIT, has to be a Marshall. Welcome to one of the times caps fucks somebody hard sideways. She gets her ass locked HARD at 22 SPD and won't raise until T3.

Aran, well, let's play a new game with Aran. To NOT GET DOUBLED by the slowest Cats, Aran has to be 20/4. We can safely count Aran out of the Speed game.

Jill has had a LOT of time to play around (with higher MOV than Meg, for later) and needs to be 20/2 to double the slowest Tigers. Sure, okay. To double the slowest Cats (something Meg physically cannot do until T3), Jill needs to be 20/8.

Results: Meg needs to be about the same level as Jill is (remember, please, for the love of God, her base level of 3) to double things. Aran is never doubling. Once 3-6 comes around, Meg sinks HARD and Aran struggles to not get doubled. Jill soars like a butterfly. I'd call Jill the far-and-away winner here.

DAMAGE: 1-6-1, let's check some durability numbers. Fighters and Armors are quite prevalent, we'll use them. 32/16 for the Armors, 30/9 for the Fighters. So presuming doubling, one needs 24ATK to 1RKO the Fighters and 32ATK to 1RKO the Armors.

Now, Meg. Let's presume Steel weapons for everybody, since they're buyable by this point. That's 9MT for a Steel Sword, requiring Meg have 15 STR to 1RKO the Fighters. She gets that at, uh, 18. The Armors? Ha, hahahaha. She'd need to be 20/16 for that. Chip damage, let's presume she's level 7 (source: you, even though I'm not so certain). That means she's not doubling anything and has an ATK of 20. So that's 1x11 to Fighters, and 1x4 to Armors. At 1-range. If you want 2-range, subtract 3 damage.

Aran isn't doubling. At all. So if Meg's gained 4 levels, I find it safe to say that Aran also gained 4 levels since he has an extra chapter to play in and her start is rocky. He's level 11, with 13 STR and a 10MT Steel Lance. That gives him 1x14 damage to Fighters - not much better than Meg - and 1x7 to Armors. Javelin is 3 worse than Steel Lance, but Aran's extra STR means for pure chip his 2-range = Meg's 1-range.

Jill isn't doubling except the slowest Armors. Weighing her down with a Steel Axe (hey, she's not doubling anyway) puts her at 22 ATK base. So subtract 1 from Aran's numbers and get 1x13 and 1x6. Hand Axe chip is equivalent to Aran's Javelin chip, except on a platform with Canto and higher MOV and flight. Oh, also, Jill picks up teh hammar this chapter, which she can sling to boost her anti-armor ATK to 50. That's 1xaLot to the Armors in this chapter, even if she probably won't use it so much.

1-8, dem Bandits are a lot of a pain in a dick. So they're 39/16 and the Soldiers are 30/13. Bandits are a hilarious 36 ATK to 1RKO and Soldiers are a more reasonable 28 ATK.

Meg would need to be 19 to double the examples. 36 ATK, however, would require Marshall-grade STR to 1RKO. The Soldiers stand at a more reasonable (relatively) 20/4. So onto chip. Continuing Meg at level 7 in 1-6-1, she can't be more than 12 in 1-8 and I'm being generous. That gives her a whopping 21 ATK. That's 1x5 on the Bandits and 1x8 on the Soldiers. Subtract 3 for her 2-range chip and wow.

Aran is still not doubling lol. So onto chip. Let's even pretend that Meg closed a four level and half-chapter gap on Aran and Aran's only level 12. He has the same 13 STR as Meg (he's only had 5 levels to grow instead of 9) so he's sitting pretty at one damage more than Meg on everything.

Jill, ah, Jill. So if Meg is level 12, we'll say Jill got how about 3 levels? That puts her at a comfortable 17. STR of 12 - ah! Meg is stronger than her. Oh, wait, Jill's doubling now. Only on some enemies, yes, but that means that, plus the extra damage from Axes (Steel weighs her down, so we have to downgrade to Iron) she's raping Meg's offense. Well, okay, on the Bandit she's doing 2x3 instead of 1x5, and on the Soldier she's doing 2x6 instead of 1x8, but hey. It's more. Hand Axe chip vice Wind Edge chip? We're talking 2x4 instead of 1x2 and 2x7 instead of 1x5 That's a little better, I'd say.

3-6, our favorite. 42/14 for Cats and 50/20 for Tigers. Suffice it to say, 1RKO is out of the question.

Meg's promoted now. I doubt there's any way we promoted her in time for 1-E the rate we were going, but we can say she promoted during 1-E and got a level. Off Jarod, I dunno. 18 STR isn't bad at all, at this point (for damn near 20 levels' investment, it better be) so we're calling an ATK of 27. And she's doubling the Tigers, score! That means 1x13 on Cats (remember, she can't double them period) and 2x7 on Tigers. 1x11 and 2x4 for Wind.

Aran is not doubling, still. Hell, he's getting doubled by cats. Let's promote him to 20/1. 30ATK with Steel, 27 with Javelins. That means 1x16 on Cats in melee, or a more respectable 1x13 at range unlike Meg. On Tigers, Meg's got a keen 14 damage to Aran's 10 in melee, and a keen 8 to Aran's 7 at range. She's solidly outdamaging him now, except on cats at range.

Jill, ah, Jill. If Meg promoted to General in 1-E, Jill promoted before the chapter. Jill's got a lead, we'll call her 20/4. That's only two levels up, and less than the gap should be. 21 SPD means anything Meg can double, Jill can. Jill's ATK, however, is a smokin' fine 28 in melee and a super foxy 26 at range. That means a whopping 2x8 in melee, and 2x6 at range on Tigers. Cats, she'll only be pulling 1x14 or 1x12. Except, unlike Meg, Jill can continue to gain SPD. Hell, from the kills she's getting (remember how much XP these things are worth) Jill may just start doubling some Cats for you.

Verdict? Jill starts and continues to be better than Meg. Please note how I handicapped the fuck out of Jill's level comparative to Meg's in all three scenarios.

DURABILITY: Hopefully a short one. Let's check some enemy ATK! 24/12 atk/as for Fighters and Armors is a good average, 20/16 for Myrmen. To complete it (since RES is a strength of Meg's), Mages are ~17/12.

MEGGEH. We called her, what, 7? 23/10/11/7 HP/SPD/DEF/RES. Fighters aren't doubling her, but they're still hitting a cool 13 damage or a 2RKO. Ouch. That's a shitty armor. The Myrmidons are landing 2x10 which isn't a 1RKO, but is certainly a 3HKO. Ouch again. The Mages don't hurt too badly, 1x10. And Meg will do some decent damage in return.

Aran was 11. 26/11/13/3. Fighters, 1x11. That's a 3RKO vice Meg's 2RKO. Classy. Myrmen are doubling for a beautiful 2x7 - 4HKO instead of 3HKO, but still a 2RKO so whatever. Mages are gonna hurt, landing 1x14 for a 2RKO. So Aran wins at Fighters, loses at Mages. And does more damage on his one counter chip.

Jill's base! 24/15/13/3 is not great, but oh well. Everything is the same as Aran's parameters, except one detail: Myrmen don't double. That's 1x7 for a 4RKO. Whee! Mages, however, are effective. Add 6 ATK to - no, wait, they're still a 2RKO. They just do quite a bit more damage than to Aran or Meg.

1-8: I see a LOT of 22/16 for physical, and 21/12 for magical. Let's use 'em.

12 Meg, howsabout. 26/13/13/9. She's in no danger of doubling or getting doubled, pity. The Bandits are landing some modest 1x9s for a 3RKO almost perfect, and the Mages are gunning around 1x12 for more 3RKO. Decent defensive parameters, to be true. I won't deny that.

12 Aran? Wow, I AM generous tonight to Meg. Okay, let's see: 26/11/14/3. So he's getting doubled by the Bandits (ouch) for a dicksnapping 2x8 damage, or a painful 3HKO. Poor guy. Mages are sitting prettier at 1x18 = no, wait, that's not prettier. I should have given hypothetical!Aran more levels. Pity.

Jill's the focus. 17 = 25/16/14/4. Better than Meg in all parameters except RES (and technically 1 HP). That said, that RES is gonna hurt because one of the Mages slings Elthunder but c'est la vie. As a bonus, the Dracoknight who roams is 27/12 - or getting doubled by Jill in return for landing 1x13 damage. But she has Hand Axes, so no big.

3-6: 29/22, 27/20 and 39/16 41/18. You can guess which is which.

Meg was 20/2. 33/18/20. RES is out because it doesn't matter in this chapter, but it is notable that Meg's is higher than Jill's or Aran's. Tigers hurt, bad. ~20 damage is 2/3 of her health, poof, gone. That's to be expected. Slow Cats are only landing 1x7, which is very manageable. Fast Cats are landing 2x9, which is a solid 2RKO. So she can survive a single fight with anything plus one with a slow Cat.

Aran was 20/1? 32/15/21. Man, I fucked Aran here. Tigers are almost equal for him, landing ~19 damage hits for still a 2RKO. All Cats double, for 2x6 or 2x8. 2x6 is still a 3RKO, so Aran can go mano-a-mano with any one Laguz or two slow Cats. Worse than Meg, but comparable.

Jill's 20/4. 30/21/18. That DEF hurts a bit, doesn't it. Except Cats aren't ever doubling her. So let's see: Tigers are ~1x22 - same old 2HKO. Cats are 1x11 or 1x9, and she's still growing. That means Jill can take an unprecedented 2 Fastcats in a row, but should run when Tigers show. On par with Meg, probably, you can argue it both ways.

Verdict: Meg catches Jill in our scenarios. Jill's better early on, and the gap closes slowly.

Finally, MOBILITY.

1-6-1 is full of shrubs. They're not too bad, though, there's fighting to be done around them. Jill goes up and over, Aran and Meg have to go through. Jill wins.

1-8 is the fucking Swamp. Nobody is happy - except Jill, who couldn't even care.

3-6 has a happy island for Aran and Meg. Jill can fly around the little island or run off (she may not run off, ymmv).

Jill also has Canto. If Meg takes a swipe at somebody, she'll stay there. If Jill takes a swipe at somebody, she can just roll off behind somebody else for healing or whatever. End result is, thanks to mobility, Jill can be more reckless and so earn more XP.

And please remember, for all of these scenarios I've presumed what I think to be a high level for Meg AND a low level for Jill.

And before the "well you can BEXP meg" argument pops up, consider this my friend. Meg's growths, in order, are LCK/SPD/HP/RES/SKL/DEFSTR/MAG. Notice how far down DEF and STR are. For each BEXP level you feed her, she's getting shit on for both offensive and defensive growth to get to the magic doubling point. And she isn't capping LCK in T1 to make that stain go away, either. Jill, on the other hand, is looking at SPD/LCK/HP/STRSKLRES/DEF/MAG. So for each BEXP level Meg gets, Jill's gonna get almost the same parameters except she has a chance of grabbing a useful stat (STR) instead of some shitty RES or SKL.

I think that covers it all. Let's see if I got ninjad.

EDIT: Yes I did. Twice.

EDIT2:

Not...really. For a "facts are facts" person, you sure seem to be a fan of quantifying the unquantifyable. The general purpose of all characters is the same, but there are literally millions of different ways to do it ("to skin the cat", you could say). Each character can bring something different to a party, and have vastly different strengths/weaknesses, making comparisons difficult, if not rather futile. This is a reason why I think tier lists are largely crap except in a few specific circumstances, even if the general context of comparison is defined.

What vastly different strengths and weaknesses? Everything either contributes to how well somebody kills things, or how well they enable somebody else to kill things. They have different purposes in the field of getting to the battle (mobility), doing their work (staves/combat parameters), and not dying (defensive parameters). That seems pretty damn quantifiable to me. Or is this going to be a rehash of my Lilina argument where she was special because she was "irreplaceable" or some bullshit?

Edited by Integrity

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Pffft, Meg, fat. All muscle I tell you.

Also cute as a button.

Completely usable unit should you choose to do so, but horrendous (like most armours) for efficiency play.

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Didn't read Integrity's post but I want to respond anyway. I don't do this often anymore.

Already have admitted to my mistake concenring the 5 versus 6 move. And, in this case, experience does matter....

Shortened for length.

This is not a game where enemies are constantly coming from all around. Many maps deal with getting from point A to point B, even if indirectly (like 3-8). High move units will always have an advantage on low move units, or I should say low move units will always be at the disadvantage. This is why Gatrie constantly drops on the tier list. This is why Meg is Bottom (if she had a better class she'd undoubtedly be higher). Move is important in the value of a character. Meg has the worst move possible. Meg is in a bad situation.

There is something I have to say, which may be our point of disagreement. Meg HAS TO hit level 4 through BEXP and then level 5 over the next chapter or two (this isn't even hard enough to be considered babying, really).

This is annoying and inefficient in HM, which I assume we're still talking about. Getting Meg a level from BEXP is like all the BEXP you get before 1-4. This is babying. Meg cannot kill things alone at base level.

If she doesn't, don't even bother fielding her. That's honestly her biggest issue as a character, imo. After that, she takes care of herself. Stick her with a brave sword to use when she doesn't double (Aran, who can't also double at this point of the game, doesn't have this option, WHICH WAS MY POINT).

Well my point is that Meg sucks. I don't care about Aran (though he is better). I'd rather give the Brave Sword to Edward or Zihark for x4 attacking than give it to Meg to help her catch up again.

I mean, I guess if I really wanted to use Meg I'd resort to that, but it's not helping me do anything other than raise a bad unit.

Also, Meg's biggest issue from personal experience is her low SKL. You just notice it less with her than Jill's low-ish SKL because she uses swords as opposed to Jill using axes, which is why I actually LIKE her using swords.

Forges largely make Jill's accuracy problems non-existent.

and my Edward is usually like level 5 when Meg joins at level 3 in HM.

1 level in 4 maps. Sure, a fair comparison.

Never mind the whole "Edward blocks axes with his face" thing I find happens in the first few chapters makes it difficult to get him that high in level.

Edward is a finisher in early maps. Leonardo and Micaiah snipe and Edward kills so he doesn't get countered. Before you start crying, yes, this sounds just like babying, but given how few units you have early on it is completely justifiable since there often is just no one else to get certain kills. Not the case for Meg.

A unit with poor stats for most of the game, poor SKL in first tier in particular, with a weapon with generally poor accuracy makes it difficult to actually take advanatge of her higher move. When is Jill's move THAT useful in part 1? 1-6-1? Not in 1-6-2 so much, since she really gets whomped if she ever tries to take advantage of that extra move over the rest of your party, she can't even be fielded in 1-8, when you'd really want her, 1-9 in Mickey only, and 1-F is, as I've said again, slow-going or owned by a royal laguz.

Clearly you do not know how to use Jill. I mentioned she was higher priority for resources before, and a Seraph Robe is the first. Energy Drop also does wonders but is more debatable. This is justifiable because Jill actually becomes something capable of quickly clearing maps as opposed to Meg who can never reach enemies.

The sooner you realize that more Move is always better, the better.

Jill has neither better caps nor better growths than Meg -- they're both rather comparable (Jill's RES cap is TERRIBLE in comparison, for example).

She does, though, looking at them both together. Where Meg actually wins in cap (Str, for example) she can hardly reach and Jill wins in growth. The Spd especially is problematic, since Meg's 2nd and 3rd tier Spd caps constantly make doubling problematic for her, a problem Jill doesn't face nearly as badly. Lol @ Res caps.

Also, Jill's mastery is objectively worse than Meg's. The activation rate of both is equal until 20/20/14, and Jill's is 3% higher at 20/20/20. 32% of triple damage + defense ignore versus 35% of triple damage + comparatively useless effect; former wins.

No, they are objectively equal because Jill is never going to leave an enemy alive after hitting them for x3.

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If you're playing on HM, all of the BEXP obtained up through 1-5 is just around enough to give Jill 1 full level, and that's it.

A base level Meg requires just over 1/4 of the BEXP that Jill requires for a level up. If we assume the best case scenario for Meg, the player only gets enough BEXP to level up Meg exactly 3 times before 1-6. So BEXP is not an option to baby Meg.

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If you're playing on HM, all of the BEXP obtained up through 1-5 is just around enough to give Jill 1 full level, and that's it.

A base level Meg requires just over 1/4 of the BEXP that Jill requires for a level up. If we assume the best case scenario for Meg, the player only gets enough BEXP to level up Meg exactly 3 times before 1-6. So BEXP is not an option to baby Meg.

That answers a point I was unsure of in my favor. Thanks, Your Eminence.

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Taking a look at those comparisons, it really comes to show you that, Meg really does suck horribly.

Meg can't kill anything without massive favoritism, is in danger of getting ORKO'd, and you can't even use BEXP to save her. And as Fox said, her movement is an absolute detriment and she really can't be shoved or rescued(only mounted units are Jill and Fiona, nevermind that Fiona herself is a sack of shit. That and the only foot unit with enough weight to rescue Meg is Volug(and Muraim/Nailah, if you want to get technical)

Edited by darkandroid125

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Because I love the HM Enemy Stats threads, let's use one today. I know this is gonna get ninja'd because I took a break for dinner.

Let's use 1-6-1, 1-8, and 3-6 for our three comparisons today. Ring ring. I'm only going to use Meg, Jill, and Aran even though you're totally fucking ignoring Zihark.

I was originally talking about the competition for experience amongst unpromoted units. Zihark is second tier, which is why I'm not including him here. No other reason.

DOUBLING: 1-6-1, the slowest enemy around is 11AS. Average is more like 13. Fastest is 17.

Meg needs to have gained 10 (I'm not making this up) levels to double the other Armors. If you want to pour BEXP into her (which is okay if we're going for the double point and nothing else) she needs 7 levels of BEXP. And every level of BEXP is a guaranteed level of no STR. But let's ignore that for now. Damage is later. To double the average, Meg needs to be level 19, or have gained 16 levels (or 10 points of SPD).

Aran needs to promote (hilarious, actually) to double the Armors. Yeah, he's never doubling. Point ceded. But let's not take it out of context.

Jill is at base level right now, but she'll still double the slowest Armor. An extra point (from one level at a 65% growth) and she's doubling all the armors. Jill has to be, just like Meg, level 18 to double the average. But, again, she's base right now. I'm not pouring all the BEXP in the world into her.

I don't remember Meg doubling some enemies (not armors) until around 1-7 (she gains a fair number of levels in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2...it's been too long for a definite number, but I'd say it's probably in the early teens). When she can't double, she always has the option to use the brave sword for double damage (who the hell vendors this when you can buy every stat booster in the game and still end up with 30-50k gold left by the tower levels?), which serves her well for much of the time she's catching up in level. Edward obviously can also use it, but his very low DEF base in comparison to her makes it hard to level him in general (to put it in perspective, a level 3 Meg has the same DEF and I think RES as a level 20 Edward). Zihark is so awesome at this point of the game he doesn't need it (maybe it's the fact he's promoted or has a good affinity...gee_wiz_emoticon.gif). That leaves Meg as the best candidate for it.

1-8, oh who doesn't love this map. Mages are still hovering at 12AS. The average is about 15. Fastest enemy is 18.

To double the slow-ass Mages, Meg needs to have 16 SPD. That's level 16 or 8 levels of BEXP or some combination of the two. The average requires 19, which she almost precisely attains at 20.

Aran is looking at never doubling, still.

Jill has had time to gain levels by now. That magic 16 SPD to double the shitty units requires 1 (one) level of SPD. To play consistent with the averages (and therefore not favorite Jill over Meg unnecessarily), Jill needs to gain 2 levels or 1 BEXP level. That's a lot less investment. The average of 19 requires her to be, well, 20/1. Jill's average SPD at 20/-- is 18.9 which tempted me sorely to round up but I decided not to because, again, consistency.

You can't field Jill on 1-8, IIRC (same with Fiora or Tauroneo). For that reason, I'll not be quoting any other references to it. I wish you could, since that's the only map that screams flier (as it would trivialize saving the citizenry).

3-6 is the most fun. Lowest is 16, average is 20. 24 will get you doubling all Tigers and the slow Cats, which is fair to me.

Meg needs to be promoted to double the slowest Tigers. Hell, that's better than Aran and on par with Jill roughly. To reach 24 SPD Meg - OH WAIT, has to be a Marshall. Welcome to one of the times caps fucks somebody hard sideways. She gets her ass locked HARD at 22 SPD and won't raise until T3.

Aran, well, let's play a new game with Aran. To NOT GET DOUBLED by the slowest Cats, Aran has to be 20/4. We can safely count Aran out of the Speed game.

Jill has had a LOT of time to play around (with higher MOV than Meg, for later) and needs to be 20/2 to double the slowest Tigers. Sure, okay. To double the slowest Cats (something Meg physically cannot do until T3), Jill needs to be 20/8.

Results: Meg needs to be about the same level as Jill is (remember, please, for the love of God, her base level of 3) to double things. Aran is never doubling. Once 3-6 comes around, Meg sinks HARD and Aran struggles to not get doubled. Jill soars like a butterfly. I'd call Jill the far-and-away winner here.

A few things here. Unless I'm forgetting something, 3-6 is the first level the Dawn Brigade has after 1-E. Meg has to be 20/4 in order to start worrying about capping speed on average, which she might hit towards the end of that chapter (I honestly don't remember, but I do know it gives a fair amount of experience if you kill them properly), and it takes Jill until 20/6 to exceed that 22 SPD cap. Never mind that Jill caps speed at 25 (a mere 3 points higher) at 20/9, which makes her double slightly more than the average, as opposed to Meg doubling slightly less than the average, IN THE ABSOLUTE ALMOST-NEVER-GOING-TO-HAPPEN scenario where both are 20/9 by the end of that chapter. Remember, I said that my Meg was 20/10/-- going into 4-5, and that was on normal mode (better exp. gain), and I kept all of my dawn brigade t1 characters around the same level throughout part 3, so I seriously doubt they were hitting 20/9/-- going out of 3-6 unless they were massively favored. Meg wins the doubling game by default until 20/6 for sure, and then Jill takes a small lead, eventually capping out in speed herself a mere 5 levels or 3 SPD later. Meanwhile, Meg is leading in everything else but SKL.

DAMAGE: 1-6-1, let's check some durability numbers. Fighters and Armors are quite prevalent, we'll use them. 32/16 for the Armors, 30/9 for the Fighters. So presuming doubling, one needs 24ATK to 1RKO the Fighters and 32ATK to 1RKO the Armors.

Now, Meg. Let's presume Steel weapons for everybody, since they're buyable by this point. That's 9MT for a Steel Sword, requiring Meg have 15 STR to 1RKO the Fighters. She gets that at, uh, 18. The Armors? Ha, hahahaha. She'd need to be 20/16 for that. Chip damage, let's presume she's level 7 (source: you, even though I'm not so certain). That means she's not doubling anything and has an ATK of 20. So that's 1x11 to Fighters, and 1x4 to Armors. At 1-range. If you want 2-range, subtract 3 damage.

Aran isn't doubling. At all. So if Meg's gained 4 levels, I find it safe to say that Aran also gained 4 levels since he has an extra chapter to play in and her start is rocky. He's level 11, with 13 STR and a 10MT Steel Lance. That gives him 1x14 damage to Fighters - not much better than Meg - and 1x7 to Armors. Javelin is 3 worse than Steel Lance, but Aran's extra STR means for pure chip his 2-range = Meg's 1-range.

Jill isn't doubling except the slowest Armors. Weighing her down with a Steel Axe (hey, she's not doubling anyway) puts her at 22 ATK base. So subtract 1 from Aran's numbers and get 1x13 and 1x6. Hand Axe chip is equivalent to Aran's Javelin chip, except on a platform with Canto and higher MOV and flight. Oh, also, Jill picks up teh hammar this chapter, which she can sling to boost her anti-armor ATK to 50. That's 1xaLot to the Armors in this chapter, even if she probably won't use it so much.

Any advantage Jill takes on this chapter comes down to the 7 level disparity between Jill and Meg (so using your number, 20 versus 22 ATK, which isn't that big to begin with), which will close pretty damn fast simply because Meg is getting drastically more experience per kill. Meg might gain 3 levels throughout 1-6-1 if you'd let the unpromoted units mostly solo the HM map (yes, I've been sadistic enough to try it just for the challenge) or probably closer to 2 otherwise. Jill might hit level 15. This makes it 21 ATK versus 22.5 ATK, a slightly smaller gap, never mind Meg's 10 Hit advantage from swords. Plus Meg isn't weighed down at all, while Jill eats a 4 SPD penalty with a Steel Axe (which I KNOW I felt in 1-6-2, even in NM). And while Jill has the hammer, Meg has the brave sword, which literally doubles her damage (it's such a stupidly good weapon). Also, you have to be careful with Jill with a hammer, because she plummets to 9 AS holding it, bringing her to doubled range by your 13 AS average units in there. In other words, there had better be nobody near those armors, or Jill's going to be HURTING.

3-6, our favorite. 42/14 for Cats and 50/20 for Tigers. Suffice it to say, 1RKO is out of the question.

Meg's promoted now. I doubt there's any way we promoted her in time for 1-E the rate we were going, but we can say she promoted during 1-E and got a level. Off Jarod, I dunno. 18 STR isn't bad at all, at this point (for damn near 20 levels' investment, it better be) so we're calling an ATK of 27. And she's doubling the Tigers, score! That means 1x13 on Cats (remember, she can't double them period) and 2x7 on Tigers. 1x11 and 2x4 for Wind.

Aran is not doubling, still. Hell, he's getting doubled by cats. Let's promote him to 20/1. 30ATK with Steel, 27 with Javelins. That means 1x16 on Cats in melee, or a more respectable 1x13 at range unlike Meg. On Tigers, Meg's got a keen 14 damage to Aran's 10 in melee, and a keen 8 to Aran's 7 at range. She's solidly outdamaging him now, except on cats at range.

Jill, ah, Jill. If Meg promoted to General in 1-E, Jill promoted before the chapter. Jill's got a lead, we'll call her 20/4. That's only two levels up, and less than the gap should be. 21 SPD means anything Meg can double, Jill can. Jill's ATK, however, is a smokin' fine 28 in melee and a super foxy 26 at range. That means a whopping 2x8 in melee, and 2x6 at range on Tigers. Cats, she'll only be pulling 1x14 or 1x12. Except, unlike Meg, Jill can continue to gain SPD. Hell, from the kills she's getting (remember how much XP these things are worth) Jill may just start doubling some Cats for you.

Meg's usually 17 or 18 in HM (she can and has promoted in NM, though -- so you're partly right). I actually whipped out the brave sword a bit for the cats on this level (so 2x13, which is NICE), which made Meg a MVP of sorts on this level. I'm not quite sure why'd you want to use wind sword that often since it's a fog of war (night) map IIRC, and they're going to be coming to you if you're playing to stay alive, making the large portion of actual combat happen on enemy phase and thus making it a little silly to be holding such a low MT weapon like the Wind Sword. Also, Meg's doing 2x7 on tigers versus Jill's 2x8, and the former is mediocre while the latter is smokin'? And if the gap in levels closes to 2 instead of 3 (20/1 versus 20/4 is 3 level difference, not 2), we're all of a sudden looking at like a 1 damage difference in Jill's (after doubling, since it closes to like a 0.5 STR lead) for both, and Meg STILL has a lead on hit. And since SKL isn't too hot for either of them, it's probably relevent.

And no, Jill's not getting past 20/4 after 1-E (probably not 20/3 either, honestly). Meg probably won't exceed 19/--, unless she does the killing blow for Jarod (which, with her decent SPD, Fortune, STR, and DEF, makes her a good candidate, as he'll never one-hit you, even if RNG hates your guts), which might put her up to 20/--.

DURABILITY: Hopefully a short one. Let's check some enemy ATK! 24/12 atk/as for Fighters and Armors is a good average, 20/16 for Myrmen. To complete it (since RES is a strength of Meg's), Mages are ~17/12.

MEGGEH. We called her, what, 7? 23/10/11/7 HP/SPD/DEF/RES. Fighters aren't doubling her, but they're still hitting a cool 13 damage or a 2RKO. Ouch. That's a shitty armor. The Myrmidons are landing 2x10 which isn't a 1RKO, but is certainly a 3HKO. Ouch again. The Mages don't hurt too badly, 1x10. And Meg will do some decent damage in return.

Aran was 11. 26/11/13/3. Fighters, 1x11. That's a 3RKO vice Meg's 2RKO. Classy. Myrmen are doubling for a beautiful 2x7 - 4HKO instead of 3HKO, but still a 2RKO so whatever. Mages are gonna hurt, landing 1x14 for a 2RKO. So Aran wins at Fighters, loses at Mages. And does more damage on his one counter chip.

Jill's base! 24/15/13/3 is not great, but oh well. Everything is the same as Aran's parameters, except one detail: Myrmen don't double. That's 1x7 for a 4RKO. Whee! Mages, however, are effective. Add 6 ATK to - no, wait, they're still a 2RKO. They just do quite a bit more damage than to Aran or Meg.

Again, Meg's gap in base level is the big factor here, although I'm sure you can see that Meg's nice bases actually make the difference in durability between Meg and Jill are somewhat minimal outside of Myrms for Meg (and she might level out of being doubled by them, although I don't remember their SPD) to make it a 3RKO and mages for Jill (which she can't level out of).

3-6: 29/22, 27/20 and 39/16 41/18. You can guess which is which.

Meg was 20/2. 33/18/20. RES is out because it doesn't matter in this chapter, but it is notable that Meg's is higher than Jill's or Aran's. Tigers hurt, bad. ~20 damage is 2/3 of her health, poof, gone. That's to be expected. Slow Cats are only landing 1x7, which is very manageable. Fast Cats are landing 2x9, which is a solid 2RKO. So she can survive a single fight with anything plus one with a slow Cat.

Aran was 20/1? 32/15/21. Man, I fucked Aran here. Tigers are almost equal for him, landing ~19 damage hits for still a 2RKO. All Cats double, for 2x6 or 2x8. 2x6 is still a 3RKO, so Aran can go mano-a-mano with any one Laguz or two slow Cats. Worse than Meg, but comparable.

Jill's 20/4. 30/21/18. That DEF hurts a bit, doesn't it. Except Cats aren't ever doubling her. So let's see: Tigers are ~1x22 - same old 2HKO. Cats are 1x11 or 1x9, and she's still growing. That means Jill can take an unprecedented 2 Fastcats in a row, but should run when Tigers show. On par with Meg, probably, you can argue it both ways.

Verdict: Meg catches Jill in our scenarios. Jill's better early on, and the gap closes slowly.

It really doesn't close THAT slowly. I mean, Meg and Jill are fielded in 1-6-1, 1-6-2, 1-7, and 1-F before then. That's four maps, and if you'd do the same thing for 1-F, you'll probably find that any difference in durability there is also minimal. So while Jill does have the advantage in 1-6-1, 1-6-2, and 1-7, it basically disappears after that point, with Meg being about equal on physical units and having a notable advantage with casters (not only does Meg not have a weakness to thunder magic, SHE also gains 2 RES on promotion). And really, that's what I like about Meg -- she's a bit like a Myrm, except surprisingly durable even before her good avoid is put into play (I mean, she caps a 30 LUK stat halfway through second tier...her avoid is just great for a 20/10/-- and basically becomes near unhittable in good biorhythm).

I have, however, softened my view on Jill after these arguments. I might start a new HM game and try to use her more seriously this time in place of Nolan.

Finally, MOBILITY.

1-6-1 is full of shrubs. They're not too bad, though, there's fighting to be done around them. Jill goes up and over, Aran and Meg have to go through. Jill wins.

3-6 has a happy island for Aran and Meg. Jill can fly around the little island or run off (she may not run off, ymmv).

Jill also has Canto. If Meg takes a swipe at somebody, she'll stay there. If Jill takes a swipe at somebody, she can just roll off behind somebody else for healing or whatever. End result is, thanks to mobility, Jill can be more reckless and so earn more XP.

1-6-1 isn't that bad with the shrubs. Meg CAN fall behind a little bit going around the shrubs, but normally I like to tread a little carefully towards the end of the map to avoid somebody getting killed to stupidity, which means Meg keeps up the vast majority of the time.

Won't argue 3-6, although I think canto'ing aggressively isn't going to net Jill significantly more experience than Meg since I question just how often one might do that with the uncertainty of fog of war.

What vastly different strengths and weaknesses? Everything either contributes to how well somebody kills things, or how well they enable somebody else to kill things. They have different purposes in the field of getting to the battle (mobility), doing their work (staves/combat parameters), and not dying (defensive parameters). That seems pretty damn quantifiable to me. Or is this going to be a rehash of my Lilina argument where she was special because she was "irreplaceable" or some bullshit?

Range, movement, are you balanced around doubling or not, weaker accurate strikes or strong inaccurate ones, evasion or sheer DEF like a brick, do you have severe weakness to certain weapons/magic? Do you attack DEF or RES? Do you heal? I mean, like I said, everybody's goal is to kill or help kill, but what classes you're strong/weak against is important. When building a team, wouldn't it make sense to have units good against mages and others good against slow, strong units like tigers, and others strong against swift, weaker units like cats?

...I'd like to say I loved your argument overall. Detailed, unbiased, and with a strong opinion. Everything a good debate should have.

P.S. You don't use BEXP to baby Meg. You only use the BEXP from the first few chapters to get her to level 4, where she won't be ORKO'd by laguz. This makes training her possible.

P.P.S. The numbers don't say Meg sucks. They say that Aran is mediocre overall and crashes and burns in durability once you hit 3-6 (ironic, I suppose), and that Jill's level makes her slightly better for everything until 1-F (ALL three maps), at which point Meg catches up, with 1 less ATK and 10 more hit than Jill, equal durability against melee, and much stronger durability versus casters -- Jill makes up the final weakness by being a flier.

P.P.P.S. In what damn universe is 10 STR, 8 SPD, and 10 DEF bad base stats for a level 3? Meg needs to be taken care of in 1-4, to get her SPD up to around 10. That's it. She'll hold her own without being favored from that point on. Period. I mean, look at Integrity's own numbers for 1-6-1 for proof. :>

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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I don't remember Meg doubling some enemies (not armors) until around 1-7 (she gains a fair number of levels in 1-6-1 and 1-6-2...it's been too long for a definite number, but I'd say it's probably in the early teens). When she can't double, she always has the option to use the brave sword for double damage (who the hell vendors this when you can buy every stat booster in the game and still end up with 30-50k gold left by the tower levels?), which serves her well for much of the time she's catching up in level. Edward obviously can also use it, but his very low DEF base in comparison to her makes it hard to level him in general (to put it in perspective, a level 3 Meg has the same DEF and I think RES as a level 20 Edward).

You mean a level 13 Edward, since Edward gets additional defense from his supports.

Zihark is so awesome at this point of the game he doesn't need it (maybe it's the fact he's promoted or has a good affinity...gee_wiz_emoticon.gif). That leaves Meg as the best candidate for it.

The most important thing the Brave Sword does is 1-rounded Bandits, which Meg can't do because she's too slow to double them and usually significantly weaker than Edward in terms of strength.

You can't field Jill on 1-8, IIRC (same with Fiora or Tauroneo). For that reason, I'll not be quoting any other references to it. I wish you could, since that's the only map that screams flier (as it would trivialize saving the citizenry).

Jill is also highly useful in performing rescue drops in every other Part 1 map she's in, since they all have terrain which often shits all over Meg (like those 1-6-1 Thickets).

A few things here. Unless I'm forgetting something, 3-6 is the first level the Dawn Brigade has after 1-E. Meg has to be 20/4 in order to start worrying about capping speed on average, which she might hit towards the end of that chapter (I honestly don't remember, but I do know it gives a fair amount of experience if you kill them properly), and it takes Jill until 20/6 to exceed that 22 SPD cap.

You are very optimistic if you think that Meg can close an 11 level gap in two chapters in which she is your worst character by far.

Never mind that Jill caps speed at 25 (a mere 3 points higher) at 20/9, which makes her double slightly more than the average, as opposed to Meg doubling slightly less than the average, IN THE ABSOLUTE ALMOST-NEVER-GOING-TO-HAPPEN scenario where both are 20/9 by the end of that chapter.

Yes, my Jill is typically about say, 18/14 at the end of 3-6 in HM. There is truth in what you say, though: Meg is never going to see that kind of experience gain.

Remember, I said that my Meg was 20/10/-- going into 4-5, and that was on normal mode (better exp. gain), and I kept all of my dawn brigade t1 characters around the same level throughout part 3, so I seriously doubt they were hitting 20/9/-- going out of 3-6 unless they were massively favored. Meg wins the doubling game by default until 20/6 for sure, and then Jill takes a small lead, eventually capping out in speed herself a mere 5 levels or 3 SPD later. Meanwhile, Meg is leading in everything else but SKL.

How so? Meg has a tiny speed lead assuming that they're both at the same level. But they're not at the same level since Jill has a huge speed lead. And Jill also gains experience faster. And in terms of "true" averages, Jill's averages are better, because while Meg has 0% chance of having 23SPD ever, Jill does have a chance. Meg's true speed average at 20/4 is 21.2 to Jill's 21.8.

Any advantage Jill takes on this chapter comes down to the 7 level disparity between Jill and Meg (so using your number, 20 versus 22 ATK, which isn't that big to begin with), which will close pretty damn fast simply because Meg is getting drastically more experience per kill. Meg might gain 3 levels throughout 1-6-1 if you'd let the unpromoted units mostly solo the HM map (yes, I've been sadistic enough to try it just for the challenge) or probably closer to 2 otherwise. Jill might hit level 15.

I've seen Jill gain four levels in 1-6 before in HM.

Range, movement, are you balanced around doubling or not, weaker accurate strikes or strong inaccurate ones, evasion or sheer DEF like a brick, do you have severe weakness to certain weapons/magic? Do you attack DEF or RES? Do you heal? I mean, like I said, everybody's goal is to kill or help kill, but what classes you're strong/weak against is important. When building a team, wouldn't it make sense to have units good against mages and others good against slow, strong units like tigers, and others strong against swift, weaker units like cats?

Or you can just use units that are good against everything.

Moreover, why would I use units that are good against mages when mages are the easiest things in the world to kill, and you don't even fight enemy magic users in DB Part 3?

P.P.S. The numbers don't say Meg sucks. They say that Aran is mediocre overall and crashes and burns in durability once you hit 3-6 (ironic, I suppose)

That's not true at all. Aran's durability is pretty good since he can conceivably scrape a 3RKO from Tigers, and Resolve makes him very good against Cats.

P.P.P.S. In what damn universe is 10 STR, 8 SPD, and 10 DEF bad base stats for a level 3?

It doesn't matter what level she is. The game does not "go easy" on lower levelled units because it feels bad for them. I do not feel there is any reason to forgive a unit for being crap because underlevelled units are supposed to be crap. My thought process goes like this:

-Meg gets 1-rounded by a significant proportion of enemies, has poor movement and unimpressive offense

-Don't let the door hit you on the way out!

It is painful enough to train units like Edward or Aran who have significantly less rocky starts. Meg takes far too much time for not enough payoff. Great, she's more durable than Edward but with inferior offense and mobility, when Edward is not a particularly good character in the first place so Meg is still getting like 2 or 3HKOed, and durability isn't as important as the other two in the first place. And Meg is waaay harder to train. If Edward isn't level 8 or 9 by the beginning of 1-4 in HM, he should probably be ditched. The same applies for Meg.

Edited by Anouleth

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