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Meg: Why such hate?

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Meg's true speed average at 20/4 is 21.2 to Jill's 21.8.

I don't like this "true average" stuff; as seen here Meg has a 59% chance of having 22 Spd at 20/4, meaning a 41% chance of anything lower, and only 17% for 21 specifically. Just showing that she's more likely to have 22 than 21, but 21.2 makes it look like the other way around.

Edited by Red Fox of Fire

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That's not true at all. Aran's durability is pretty good since he can conceivably scrape a 3RKO from Tigers, and Resolve makes him very good against Cats.

By very good against cats, I guess you mean he's not doubled by them is all.

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I don't like this "true average" stuff; as seen here Meg has a 59% chance of having 22 Spd at 20/4, meaning a 41% chance of anything lower, and only 17% for 21 specifically. Just showing that she's more likely to have 22 than 21, but 21.2 makes it look like the other way around.

I think that the averages should take into account that Jill has a real, non-zero chance of having 23 SPD or more and that the same chance does not apply to Meg. After all, that is the purpose of averages.

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You mean a level 13 Edward, since Edward gets additional defense from his supports.

The most important thing the Brave Sword does is 1-rounded Bandits, which Meg can't do because she's too slow to double them and usually significantly weaker than Edward in terms of strength.

Edward has a fantastic STR growth, but suffers from the same problem Meg does with SPD. He caps it so...damn...early that he never really actually has a commanding lead over Meg. In fact, Meg's base STR is equal to Edward's at 9/--. Edward's STR doesn't exceed Meg's until 18/--. It's the same old story every tier -- Edward starts off ahead, and then Meg always catches up and exceeds his strength by the end. Perhaps it has something to do with his warrior-like STR growth with myrmidon caps.

Jill is also highly useful in performing rescue drops in every other Part 1 map she's in, since they all have terrain which often shits all over Meg (like those 1-6-1 Thickets).

I suppose. Highly useful is stretching it, unless you're gunning for pure efficiency and nothing else (and this game has enough Jaigan-like characters that's easy enough to do).

You are very optimistic if you think that Meg can close an 11 level gap in two chapters in which she is your worst character by far.

I never said she has to close the gap. For most of the game (i.e. before third tier caps dominate), an equal level Meg beats the crap out of Jill, particularly in first tier. Meg only needs to close the gap to 3-4 levels by 1-F to compare to Jill (and considering she's level 6-7 versus Jill's level 14 coming into 1-6-1 if you actually give Meg a chance, that's not hard at all).

Yes, my Jill is typically about say, 18/14 at the end of 3-6 in HM. There is truth in what you say, though: Meg is never going to see that kind of experience gain.

Methinks you might be feeding too many kills to Jill...because I do NOT remember anybody being that high. I remember Mickey being...like...20/10/-- to 20/12/-- on the first map she was in on part 4? I had her go into bushes and farm like 8-10 levels that map. Memory's a little foggy, since I last played HM on April of this year, right before I went to move (and after that, I've been focusing on Blazing Sword).

How so? Meg has a tiny speed lead assuming that they're both at the same level. But they're not at the same level since Jill has a huge speed lead. And Jill also gains experience faster. And in terms of "true" averages, Jill's averages are better, because while Meg has 0% chance of having 23SPD ever, Jill does have a chance. Meg's true speed average at 20/4 is 21.2 to Jill's 21.8.

I guess I can understand that, but that's not really that big of a difference. It's like half a stat point, and I'll easily say that second tier is easily Meg's worst for speed.

I've seen Jill gain four levels in 1-6 before in HM.

1-6-1? Or both 1-6-1 and 1-6-2? Because Meg gains 2-3 levels in 1-6-1 alone and then a few more in 1-6-2. Mainly because it's really easy for her to get tons of experience because of her low level.

Or you can just use units that are good against everything.

So...Ike? I mean, to be good against everything, you'd need near perfect stats all-around, with access to all weapon types, or just a stupidly broken mastery and abnormally high caps (*cough* Ike *cough*).

That's not true at all. Aran's durability is pretty good since he can conceivably scrape a 3RKO from Tigers, and Resolve makes him very good against Cats.

...Did you even read Integrity's post? Aran's pretty sad against cats without resolve. And his high-ish base SPD won't hold back that terrible speed growth forever, and he's probably going to be doubled a fair amount unless you start getting SPD levels from BEXP. And, wait, why are we assuming Aran gets resolve and Meg or Jill can't?

P.S. I've always found Edward harder to train than Meg in HM, basically since you have to baby Edward through the first few chapters (although the game kind of forces you to use him, if you would call that a "strength" in Edward's favor). I mean, level 5 Edward versus level 3 Meg:

Meg has 2.4 more strength, 5.65 more defense, and 5 more resistance, while having 4.65 less skill and speed and 0.5 less luck. Since I can avoid having Meg be doubled by giving her one level of BEXP (which, frankly, is a pittance, considering how much you get throughout the game).

I don't think you have enough to level Edward once before 1-4, so that puts a slightly better comparison as level 4 Meg versus level 5 Edward:

Meg has 3.1 more strength, 6 more defense, 5.5 more resistance, 0.25 more luck, while having 4.25 less skill and 4 less speed. I don't know -- I'm liking Meg here. Middle of the game, Meg becomes a much more durable character with less offensive capability, but late game, Meg's broken (come, we all know Luna's brokenly good) mastery and Edward's low STR cap (damn shame, tbh) means Meg pulls ahead in both offensive capability in anything that doesn't have Nihil and brute defense (8 more defense, WAY more resistance, and 5 more health), although Edward has better SKL (largely pointless considering Alondite's decent hit) and avoid (which isn't pointless by any means).

The way I see it, both have strengths and weaknesses, and you won't regret using either in the long haul, I just think saying Meg sucks just stems to her slightly low joining level and oddly high SPD growth for a general (although, as I said, nobody seems to complain about Edwards' near identical problem).

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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Edward has a fantastic STR growth, but suffers from the same problem Meg does with SPD. He caps it so...damn...early that he never really actually has a commanding lead over Meg. In fact, Meg's base STR is equal to Edward's at 9/--. Edward's STR doesn't exceed Meg's until 18/--. It's the same old story every tier -- Edward starts off ahead, and then Meg always catches up and exceeds his strength by the end. Perhaps it has something to do with his warrior-like STR growth with myrmidon caps.

Meg does not exceed Edward's tier 2 strength until something like 20/18, a level she is not going to reach for a very long time (by which point you will have promoted Edward with a Crown or something). In other words, Edward consistently matches and then beats her strength in tier 1, then beats her in tier 2, then beats her in tier 3.

I suppose. Highly useful is stretching it, unless you're gunning for pure efficiency and nothing else (and this game has enough Jaigan-like characters that's easy enough to do).

Highly useful is exactly accurate.

I never said she has to close the gap. For most of the game (i.e. before third tier caps dominate), an equal level Meg beats the crap out of Jill, particularly in first tier. Meg only needs to close the gap to 3-4 levels by 1-F to compare to Jill (and considering she's level 6-7 versus Jill's level 14 coming into 1-6-1 if you actually give Meg a chance, that's not hard at all).

I gave Meg a chance. I looked at her base stats. Sadly, she wasted that chance by insisting on having base stats that were not helpful to my goal of killing enemies.

Methinks you might be feeding too many kills to Jill...because I do NOT remember anybody being that high. I remember Mickey being...like...20/10/-- to 20/12/-- on the first map she was in on part 4? I had her go into bushes and farm like 8-10 levels that map. Memory's a little foggy, since I last played HM on April of this year, right before I went to move (and after that, I've been focusing on Blazing Sword).

Then you made a mistake, since training Micaiah is a waste of time.

But I did not feed too many kills to Jill. Thanks to Jill I was able to trivialise most of the rest of the game. You can go and find my playthrough: my Part 4 turncounts are very competitive.

I guess I can understand that, but that's not really that big of a difference. It's like half a stat point, and I'll easily say that second tier is easily Meg's worst for speed.

She's bad in first tier (gets doubled initiall and never doubles enemies), she's bad in third tier (24 speed at 20/1 is disastrous).

1-6-1? Or both 1-6-1 and 1-6-2? Because Meg gains 2-3 levels in 1-6-1 alone and then a few more in 1-6-2. Mainly because it's really easy for her to get tons of experience because of her low level.

It's really difficult for her to gain tons of experience because she's shit. Why bother waiting around for her to huff and puff and catch up to everyone else, only to be weak?

So...Ike? I mean, to be good against everything, you'd need near perfect stats all-around, with access to all weapon types, or just a stupidly broken mastery and abnormally high caps (*cough* Ike *cough*).

You don't need all weapon types, only Axes. And most of the upper tier characters are good against everything.

...Did you even read Integrity's post?

I don't need to. I have been arguing about 3-6 for three years now, I don't need to read another post about it ever again, quite frankly.

Aran's pretty sad against cats without resolve.

5HKOed isn't "sad".

And his high-ish base SPD won't hold back that terrible speed growth forever, and he's probably going to be doubled a fair amount unless you start getting SPD levels from BEXP.

What's your point.

And, wait, why are we assuming Aran gets resolve and Meg or Jill can't?

When did I ever say they couldn't? Please, go on. Link me to the exact place where I said they can't take Resolve. Because I didn't. If I did, you could link me, but because I didn't say that, you CAN'T link me. You are just pulling accusations out of your ass, and I recommend you shove them back there.

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Wow, you're being rather belligerent in your responses. cool.gif

As for Meg's bases, I added an extra section in edit so as not to double post.

24 speed at 20/20/1 is not that bad. That's Haar's speed, Titania is 25, Jill is only 27, Gatrie is 25, Aran is 24, Rolf is 28. Actually, looking at most characters, you're seeing most of them fall in the 24-28 range, except for like myrms and pegasi. Meg's speed growth is so high that (of these) she exceeds Titania, Haar, and Aran by 20/20/10, and is within a couple points of everybody else.

...As for resolve, my point is that Meg's and Jill's avoid would shoot up to 80 before any effect from biorhythm and supports (which are certainly possible by this point in the game), meaning they'd dodge a fair amount. All it does for Aran is make it so he's like "So yeah, now I have a whole like 3 more DEF/STR than you Meg/Jill, and I don't get doubled by cats no more. But please ignore my still crappy dodge and the fact you'd probably be doubling everything on the map with resolve".

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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Wow, you're being rather belligerent in your responses. cool.gif

As for Meg's bases, I added an extra section in edit so as not to double post.

24 speed at 20/20/1 is not that bad. That's Haar's speed, Titania is 25, Jill is only 27, Gatrie is 25, Aran is 24, Rolf is 28. Actually, looking at most characters, you're seeing most of them fall in the 24-28 range, except for like myrms and pegasi. Meg's speed growth is so high that (of these) she exceeds Titania, Haar, and Aran by 20/20/10, and is within a couple points of everybody else.

Considering that Meg is reaching third tier around early part 4(and I'm being real generous here), 24 speed is actually quite bad. And I mean 'doubles absolutely nothing' bad. Granted, she isn't getting doubled, but still. Her offense is looking pretty bad here.

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Considering that Meg is reaching third tier around early part 4(and I'm being real generous here), 24 speed is actually quite bad. And I mean 'doubles absolutely nothing' bad. Granted, she isn't getting doubled, but still. Her offense is looking pretty bad here.

For a brief moment in time. Very brief. I'd like to remind you that she has a 65% growth rate in SPD, meaning that once she gets just a few levels (and by that I mean like 4-6) you barely even notice she had a poor second tier cap as she'll be mostly in line with most of the rest of your party, sans myrms and pegasi and their ilk.

And 32 SPD is very respectable for a cap. I'd have preferred 34 on third tier and 25 on second, considering both Gatrie's and Meg's growths, but I guess you can't have the best skill for a non-lord non-Black Knight unit AND no weaknesses besides move. wink.gif

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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It's not enough to just say "Hey look, Meg has 24 SPD at 20/20/1!" You have to look at the context. If that happens in Part 4, then Meg will suck no matter where she goes. She won't hit the 26 SPD needed to double the paladins in 4-P during the chapter (unless you shove her full of every single kill and stick Paragon on her). Forget about 4-1, since enemies are much, much faster there. Not to mention, her piss-poor 2nd tier Speed cap of 22 prevents her from doubling anything that isn't a Tiger or random General 1st-tier scrub in Part 3 (not that it's easy for her to even get there in the first place, mind you, and she still struggles offensively against Generals and Tigers).

Meanwhile, Titania can promote during Part 3; she's already just a few levels off anyway, and it's recommended to pop her with a Speedwing so she starts doubling and ORKOing for much of Part 3; it's easy for her to level since she kills just about everything. Haar? Speedwing (much like Titania, you also get a huge net benefit out of using it on him), and Crown once he hits his Speed cap of 24 in Part 3. Gatrie crowned once he hits 23 SPD in 2nd tier is an ORKOing maniac; he just kills, kills and kills. Oh, and lastly, Jill can level up very quickly during 3-6 (we have play logs on this site where she hit something like 20/17 by the end of the chapter); it's a wonder what flight and Canto can do for getting kills and you can use your knowledge of laguz movement to only expose Jill to as much flak as she can handle on Enemy Phase, unlike Meg, who is a foot soldier with, at best, 6 mov in a river: you have to be very careful not to overextend her, and she'll have to wait for enemies to come to her.

Edited by Black★Rock Shooter

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I think that the averages should take into account that Jill has a real, non-zero chance of having 23 SPD or more and that the same chance does not apply to Meg. After all, that is the purpose of averages.

That's fine. Meg is still more likely to have 22 than 21. Not being able to hit 23 doesn't change that.

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And 32 SPD is very respectable for a cap. I'd have preferred 34 on third tier and 25 on second, considering both Gatrie's and Meg's growths, but I guess you can't have the best skill for a non-lord non-Black Knight unit AND no weaknesses besides move. wink.gif
32 is respectable?

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It's not enough to just say "Hey look, Meg has 24 SPD at 20/20/1!" You have to look at the context. If that happens in Part 4, then Meg will suck no matter where she goes. She won't hit the 26 SPD needed to double the paladins in 4-P during the chapter (unless you shove her full of every single kill and stick Paragon on her). Forget about 4-1, since enemies are much, much faster there. Not to mention, her piss-poor 2nd tier Speed cap of 22 prevents her from doubling anything that isn't a Tiger or random General 1st-tier scrub in Part 3 (not that it's easy for her to even get there in the first place, mind you, and she still struggles offensively against Generals and Tigers).

Meanwhile, Titania can promote during Part 3; she's already just a few levels off anyway, and it's recommended to pop her with a Speedwing so she starts doubling and ORKOing for much of Part 3; it's easy for her to level since she kills just about everything. Haar? Speedwing (much like Titania, you also get a huge net benefit out of using it on him), and Crown once he hits his Speed cap of 24 in Part 3. Gatrie crowned once he hits 23 SPD in 2nd tier is an ORKOing maniac; he just kills, kills and kills. Oh, and lastly, Jill can level up very quickly during 3-6 (we have play logs on this site where she hit something like 20/17 by the end of the chapter); it's a wonder what flight and Canto can do for getting kills and you can use your knowledge of laguz movement to only expose Jill to as much flak as she can handle on Enemy Phase, unlike Meg, who is a foot soldier with, at best, 6 mov in a river: you have to be very careful not to overextend her, and she'll have to wait for enemies to come to her.

That's a fair argument, although I think most of the second paragraph comes down to one word: Availability. You have those characters available in situations where you can promote them readily and more maps to do so overall. I think that's a good point. I'm not sure what to say about how Jill can get so stupidly high in 3-6 -- you're basically forsaking everybody else to get her there, which just reeks to me of favoritism. You could probably do the same thing with any of the foot units, except probably not to that extreme of an extent. I don't agree that makes her good, though, just that people say "Hey, I'm just going to transform a unit into an artificial Jaigan for part 3 and toss everybody else in the trash...might as well make it the flying unit!" I mean, I know you can't do that whole with Meg as much since her speed cap is 22 as opposed to 25 (although, ironically, Meg still gains more stats per level up through much of the second tier), but I don't see this as a great reason to say Meg sucks.

Like I said, I've solo'd 4-5 with Meg (not trying to prove a point or anything...I was just blowing by NM and decided to have a bit of fun in killing her off and then resetting since I always heard everybody say she sucked...except she never died). I guess I'm having a hard time translating killing something like 100 laguz starting at 20/10/-- on NM (granted she started at like high biorhythm, to be fair) to being near unusable/terrible on HM.

...I should probably stop arguing for now, as I think I've caused enough people to hate me today. gee_wiz_emoticon.gif I will leave with this statement: Calling Meg terrible when she's not is an insult to really terrible units like Leonardo, who is completely outclassed by Rolf and who I could never get not to suck, despite trying like crazy to make an archer useful (if you haven't guessed by my portrait, I happen to be a fan of the class).

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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That's a fair argument, although I think most of the second paragraph comes down to one word: Availability. You have those characters available in situations where you can promote them readily and more maps to do so overall. I think that's a good point. I'm not sure what to say about how Jill can get so stupidly high in 3-6 -- you're basically forsaking everybody else to get her there, which just reeks to me of favoritism. You could probably do the same thing with any of the foot units, except probably not to that extreme of an extent. I don't agree that makes her good, though, just that people say "Hey, I'm just going to transform a unit into an artificial Jaigan for part 3 and toss everybody else in the trash...might as well make it the flying unit!"

No, we aren't. Jill's use of Paragon is far more efficient--she puts it to much better use--than pretty much every other DB unit in HM. I've already explained that most of the foot units cannot even touch the level of how well she can use the skill because of how she can fly, Canto, and thus easily grab kills that other members of the team weakens. She damn well delivers too in 3-12 (hey look, another chapter where Flying+Canto is goddamn awesome) and in 3-13 (hey look, another chapter where Flying+Canto is goddamn awesome) where she can put down Ike like a rabid dog after promoting. On another note, Nolan with only 18 STR OHKOs every single Tiger on the map; this lets him solo the entire north side of the map by himself, and all he needs to do on player phase is self-heal with a Concoction or preemptively blick a nearby dangerous tiger. Volug is, well, Volug; he gets 3RKO'd at worst and doubles absolutely everything on the map. All three of these units can tank everything that needs to be tanked on HM while gaining more levels than Meg could even dream of gaining, and they rape the hell out of 4-P, for starters; they double virtually everything on the map.

And really, [email protected] favoritism card. If Jill's ability to use Paragon blows every other unit's ability to use it out of the galaxy, I see no reason to deny the skill to her.

Like I said, I've solo'd 4-5 with Meg (not trying to prove a point or anything...I was just blowing by NM and decided to have a bit of fun in killing her off and then resetting since I always heard everybody say she sucked...except she never died). I guess I'm having a hard time translating killing something like 100 laguz starting at 20/10/-- on NM to being near unusable/terrible on HM.

Once you get out of Kindergarten Mode (aka Normal), you'll discover that pretty much everyone in the DB sucks; nobody is getting anywhere quickly without a significant investment of blood and treasure. Suffice to say, training Meg will only result in heartburn; her combat parameters are simply not up to the task.

Edited by Black★Rock Shooter

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I don't know why this guy is still arguing. Moreover, I don't know why the rest of us are still responding. Just by looking at this guy's choice of vocabulary, I can already tell that he's still somewhere back in 2006. There's not much that we can do to convince someone whose beliefs are deeply rooted into anti-Jeiganism.

Then again I suppose it's fun to have a guy occasionally walk into SF with a "kick me" sign pasted on his back.

Edited by dondon151

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No, we aren't. Jill's use of Paragon is far more efficient--she puts it to much better use--than pretty much every other DB unit in HM. I've already explained that most of the foot units cannot even touch the level of how well she can use the skill because of how she can fly, Canto, and thus easily grab kills that other members of the team weakens. She damn well delivers too in 3-12 (hey look, another chapter where Flying+Canto is goddamn awesome) and in 3-13 (hey look, another chapter where Flying+Canto is goddamn awesome) where she can put down Ike like a rabid dog after promoting. On another note, Nolan with only 18 STR OHKOs every single Tiger on the map; this lets him solo the entire north side of the map by himself, and all he needs to do on player phase is self-heal with a Concoction or preemptively blick a nearby dangerous tiger. Volug is, well, Volug; he gets 3RKO'd at worst and doubles absolutely everything on the map. All three of these units can tank everything that needs to be tanked on HM while gaining more levels than Meg could even dream of gaining.

...No, I'm right. You basically just confirmed what I said. "I'm going to make an artificial Jaigan to trivialize everything, might as well make it the flier." Jill could have notably worse stats than Meg (and, at equal level, she kind of does until late tier two, and only because of Meg's low second tier SPD cap) and you'd still prefer her simply because you'd go nuts over Flying+Canto. It works, not saying it doesn't.

Once you get out of Kindergarten Mode (aka Normal), you'll discover that pretty much everyone in the DB sucks; nobody is getting anywhere quickly without a significant investment of blood and treasure. Suffice to say, training Meg will only result in heartburn; her combat parameters are simply not up to the task.

I've done hard mode before, as well as normal, obviously. I was just trying it with Meg this time around (and ended up stopping it around 2-F, as I had to move, and never picked it up since because I ended up getting caught up in FE7). She's really not bad...at all.

P.S. Dondon, I always thought it was preferred to stick up for your position. That's hardly a "Kick Me" sign. Btw, long-time fan of your logs and constructive posts laugh.gif. Alright, done for tonight. Got a HHM run to do, a movie to enjoy, and sleep to get. Best of luck, all!

P.P.S. I hope I didn't get you all to hate me. Facepalm_emote_gif.gif Anyways, I don't get how Edward (and especially Aran) can be so much higher than Meg in a tier list. I guess I can see Jill now, considering how easy it can be to raise her with Paragon, but doesn't she get to those absurd levels by basically condemning everybody or almost everybody else in the DB to non-use? I suppose this is what I meant by the whole Jaigan thing, since it reminds me of somebody just using Marcus to basically solo early-game, only to find your party overall weaker from it later on (obviously RD isn't Blazing Swords, and there are significant differences). And yes, I find the general tactic distasteful, and I'd love RD to bits if it didn't make it so easy with units like Sothe p1/Nailah/laguz royals in tower/etc.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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That's hardly a "Kick Me" sign.

You're arguing in favor of a mindset that most members here at SF have long purged from their knowledge. You're arguing against tried and true strategies and conventionally accepted rhetoric. "Kick me" may be an understatement; perhaps "ream my anus with a thorny dildo" better describes what you're doing.

Btw, long-time fan of your logs and constructive posts

You sure about this? Because it looks like you didn't learn anything from them.

I also don't think I'm very constructive. I'm probably one of the meanest people here.

Edited by dondon151

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You're arguing in favor of a mindset that most members here at SF have long purged from their knowledge. You're arguing against tried and true strategies and conventionally accepted rhetoric. "Kick me" may be an understatement; perhaps "ream my anus with a thorny dildo" better describes what you're doing.

I'm probably one of the meanest people here.

While dondon could be a little more mindful of what he says (I'm serious), he has a point. A lot of these arguments you make have been...evolved, so to speak. We're in a different state of mind now.

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Guest Goldie

Meg is a special, wonderful unit! It is further of a remembrance for me that fellow human beings will forever be the lovely, silly, and entertaining fellow human beings I can continuously have my communications of fun fellow human being-isms with ohohohooo!

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While dondon could be a little more mindful of what he says (I'm serious), he has a point. A lot of these arguments you make have been...evolved, so to speak. We're in a different state of mind now.

I can tell. I'm stubborn, but I do try to be kind and fair when I get into a debate (which leads to a stupid conflict between a need to stand up for a position and the fact that debating goes against my nature in general).

I won't give in to this issue, because I know I'm not wrong. But I don't want to be ostracized and unable to be taken seriously and help out others on this forum as result of debating over something as silly as whether people use Meg, either.

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...Your still wrong e_e

Meg can't get where she needs to be. While on it's own, her movement detriment doesn't seem bad to you, keep in mind that everyone else has more movement than her AND take less penalties. She can't General. She can't speedy armor. She can't fight. You can use her to your own will, we're not saying you can't. Sophia is my favorite character, and I'll openly admit she's bad. You'd do well to do the same with Meg.

Edited by Joerachi

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...Your still wrong e_e

Meg can't get where she needs to be. While on it's own, her movement detriment doesn't seem bad to you, keep in mind that everyone else has more movement than her AND take less penalties. She can't General. She can't speedy armor. She can't fight. You can use her to your own will, we're not saying you can't. Sophia is my favorite character, and I'll openly admit she's bad. You'd do well to do the same with Meg.

I don't like her sprite, I don't like her personality. I like her because I find her a capable fighter in both NM and HM, especially when you compare her to only the DB, where you have to fight for much of the game choosing between Nolan, Jill, Micky, Aran, Meg, or the already promoted units. You can't tote around somebody like Aran in the upper portion of the middle tier while Meg is at low -- if Meg gets off the ground in 1-4 (i.e. level 5), she's pretty much better than him in general. Seriously, I dare anybody to get her off the ground using the technique I just said (which costs a grand total of 300 BEXP and less babying than Edward overall) on hard mode and come back and tell me she doesn't end up better than Aran on part 1 and probably most of part 3. Edward versus Meg comes down to SPD/SKL and better STR early tier and Astra versus durability and better/equal STR late tier and Luna. It seems I've underestimated Jill (apparently) when combined with Paragon and Canto, although I almost never promote her because I can never look past her horrible, horrible base STR (for her level) and her initial massive speed loss with Steel Axe/Hammer.

You like Sophia as a character (I take it), not as a combat unit. That's where we differ. I, for example, like Lilina, but I don't go around saying she's rocking hard mode FE6.

...Damnit, I'm doing it again.

P.S. I hate Oswin in FE7, but FE10 seems to make move a hell of a lot less important, mainly because 5 move versus 6 seems way less noticable than 4 move versus 5 and because the actual fighting in many RD maps seems to take place in a concentrated area as opposed to maps like Cogs of Destiny or Victory or Death or Four Fanged Offense, which are huge.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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You can't tote around somebody like Aran in the upper portion of the middle tier while Meg is at low -- if Meg gets off the ground in 1-4 (i.e. level 5), she's pretty much better than him in general. Seriously, I dare anybody to get her off the ground using the technique I just said (which costs a grand total of 300 BEXP and less babying than Edward overall) on hard mode and come back and tell me she doesn't end up better than Aran on part 1 and probably most of part 3.

I think most of us have trouble taking you seriously because of statements like this.

Let's say that Meg gets a dream BEXP level up (str, spd, def) and gets a perfect CEXP level up in 1-4. She now has basically equivalent parameters to Aran at base (but still -1 move). This is with a substantial amount of effort and luck; in a 6 turn clear of 1-4, Meg probably won't even see combat, much less get a kill or two.

Aran at least has good growths in salvageable parameters. At the rate the player completes part 1 chapters, Meg's spd growth will not yield significant results due to a mediocre base and insufficient level ups. This is a point that you are stubbornly refusing to admit. A unit like Edward with occasionally passable offense has trouble reaching promotion naturally by the end of part 1, and Edward also has a level lead. What makes you think that Meg can even reach 20/1 by 3-6 in order to achieve passable offense against tigers? She's probably lucky to even reach 14/1 by 3-6.

Please keep in mind that we don't sandbag Meg or anything because we don't like her. We judge units using a variety of fairly clear criteria:

Does the unit have good base stats? Meg's bases are bad; Jill's bases are mediocre.

Does the unit provide immediate utility? Meg is a 5 move armor. Jill is an 8 move draco.

Does the unit have future potential? Meg is forever a 5-6 move armor with mediocre growths - she'll always have trouble getting to places and she'll always have trouble killing enemies. Jill is an 8-9 move draco with good growths - she has the potential to reach places on the map faster than anyone else in addition to the potential to wipe out enemies.

In the end, it's in the player's best interest to beef Jill up as much as possible. It's not unfair for Jill to get more favoritism than Meg because the result of such favoritism is much more pronounced in Jill's case. I personally think that it's perfectly legitimate for a player to pump a Seraph Robe, Energy Drop, Dracoshield, 1 level of BEXP, a Master Seal, and Paragon on Jill in her joining chapter because it helps her get to rape status that much faster.

FE10 seems to make move a hell of a lot less important, mainly because 5 move versus 6 seems way less noticable than 4 move versus 5 and because the actual fighting in many RD maps seems to take place in a concentrated area as opposed to maps like Cogs of Destiny or Victory or Death or Four Fanged Offense, which are huge.

Movement has been and always will be a big deal. This is something that has been proven empirically time and time again.

Edited by dondon151

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I think most of us have trouble taking you seriously because of statements like this.

Let's say that Meg gets a dream BEXP level up (str, spd, def) and gets a perfect CEXP level up in 1-4. She now has basically equivalent parameters to Aran at base (but still -1 move). This is with a substantial amount of effort and luck; in a 6 turn clear of 1-4, Meg probably won't even see combat, much less get a kill or two.

All Meg has to do is get 1 point in SPD to not get doubled and ORKO'd. That's it. You just need to feed her enough kills in 1-4 to get her to 5 (6 if you're lucky), which, in a chapter filled with transformed laguz, I think most people can handle, 6 turns or not. If I decided to try for the Master Seal and Beastfoe and the Angelic Robe (I think...been 6 months, forgive me), it usually ends up around 9 turns for 1-4, which is plenty enough for me to have Meg killing blow a couple of laguz and one of the bosses. And with her high speed growth, she's seeing steel sword territory without being doubled by most enemies quickly enough.

Aran at least has good growths in salvageable parameters. At the rate the player completes part 1 chapters, Meg's spd growth will not yield significant results due to a mediocre base and insufficient level ups. This is a point that you are stubbornly refusing to admit. A unit like Edward with occasionally passable offense has trouble reaching promotion naturally by the end of part 1, and Edward also has a level lead. What makes you think that Meg can even reach 20/1 by 3-6 in order to achieve passable offense against tigers? She's probably lucky to even reach 14/1 by 3-6.

Aran's speed is terrible. Absolutely horrible. I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of a unit that gets doubled by a large portion of enemies, which you basically have to BEXP to remedy. And his DEF at 20/1 compared to Meg's 20/1 is something like a 3 point lead, which would be nice if Meg didn't end up having like a 20-30 avoid lead on him and the ability to not be doubled. You can give Resolve to Aran or you can slap on Meg and watch as her speed is so stupidly high that she's looking at 81 avoid when Resolve procs BEFORE supports/terrain (unless I'm misunderstanding the resolve mechanics somehow). And, unlike Edward, she has the DEF/RES to take a hit (although mages aren't exactly common for DB) very well even if something did manage to connect. Now imagine supports + terrain bonuses, and you can see why Meg would fare well in combat. And I'm not sure what you're doing in part 1, but I generally have enough experience to get two or three unpromoted DB units to level 16-18 on HM and 19-20/1 on NM going into 1-E, one of them being Meg.

Also, Edward's offense is barely passable? I mean, it takes his STR a while to come up from a meh base, but I wouldn't call it barely passable...it's rather decent. Aran has like 3 STR more than Edward at comparable levels, but, you know, Edward can double a fair number of enemies, and he always has access to the Brave Sword if you're not going to give it to Meg to deal with cats. In short, Aran's offense is the definition of mediocre, although he probably moves ahead of Edward on tigers (but behind on cats) when both have access to Resolve.

Movement has been and always will be a big deal. This is something that has been proven empirically time and time again.

Means more in some FE games than others. And FE10 tends to be one where I think it means less. And if you're especially concerned about it, Meg has plenty of capacity for celerity, if you choose to go that route.

Edited by Kngt_Of_Titania

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All Meg has to do is get 1 point in SPD to not get doubled and ORKO'd. That's it. You just need to feed her enough kills in 1-4 to get her to 5 (6 if you're lucky), which, in a chapter filled with transformed laguz, I think most people can handle, 6 turns or not. If I decided to try for the Master Seal and Beastfoe and the Angelic Robe (I think...been 6 months, forgive me), it usually ends up around 9 turns for 1-4, which is plenty enough for me to have Meg killing blow a couple of laguz and one of the bosses. And with her high speed growth, she's seeing steel sword territory without being doubled by most enemies quickly enough.

Sothe takes maybe 70% of the kills in 1-4 in a 6 turn clear (or faster) and Nolan basically takes the rest. There's also no point in using Steel Swords when you can just forge an Iron Sword. A 6 turn clear also has a modest reliability at getting all of the items (Sothe needs to hit both of his 80% chances to dig up a Master Seal and a Beastfoe).

Aran's speed is terrible. Absolutely horrible. I don't know about you, but I'm not a fan of a unit that gets doubled by a large portion of enemies, which you basically have to BEXP to remedy.

It's honestly not that terrible. Aran's base spd lasts him fine through 1-6 (he may need +1 on base for 1-6-1) and he'd like +2 on base for 1-7. We're pushing favoritism territory to have him not get doubled in 1-E, but it's still less than what you suggest for Meg.

And his DEF at 20/1 compared to Meg's 20/1 is something like a 3 point lead, which would be nice if Meg didn't end up having like a 20-30 avoid lead on him and the ability to not be doubled.

You're missing a level lead and a +def affinity.

Also, Edward's offense is barely passable? I mean, it takes his STR a while to come up from a meh base, but I wouldn't call it barely passable...it's rather decent. Aran has like 3 STR more than Edward at comparable levels, but, you know, Edward can double a fair number of enemies, and he always has access to the Brave Sword if you're not going to give it to Meg to deal with cats. In short, Aran's offense is the definition of mediocre, although he probably moves ahead of Edward on tigers (but behind on cats) when both have access to Resolve.

Edward's AS is not always sufficient for him to double consistently. If Edward is not slightly spd blessed going into 1-4, there's not much of a future in store for him.

Means more in some FE games than others. And FE10 tends to be one where I think it means less. And if you're especially concerned about it, Meg has plenty of capacity for celerity, if you choose to go that route.

You're talking to the guy who is largely responsible for trailblazing low turn runs in FE10. I think I know what I'm talking about.

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