Feedback for 'A Good Critique'

[Anacybele]

Just post here if you have anything to say about the little essay I wrote. I don't expect much, as I don't believe I'm very good at those, but whatever.

It's right here.

[Jaybee]

You actually wrote a piece on critique because of how butthurt you were over Life and Furet's proper criticism in your other story?

Are you fucking serious?

I didn't even read the piece, but what the hell. I didn't think it was possible for someone to get so bitchy over a piece of writing that they tried to write something else just to get back at those people.

Oh wait, I did that. When I was 8 years old.

Grow up, realise Furet and Life were giving proper criticism, and get rid of this piece of crap.

[Anacybele]

I'll admit that I did it to counter Bblader's Ramblings piece, but I never wrote it to bitch at people. Just to teach others how to critique. :3

Edited December 2, 2011 by Anacybele

[Nanami Touko]

How can someone who doesn't know what proper critique is tell others what proper critique is?

[Anacybele]

Maybe because I do know what proper critique is.

[Jaybee]

Oh, I'm sure you wrote it to share your wonderful teachings to all of us. Those assholes who sound like they're flaming you (when they aren't, just telling the fucking truth) ought to read this to know how to critique your way!

That is, failing miserably.

[Inactive Account]

I see I need to cross-post what I put in the other thread, and perhaps elaborate.

I noticed a "if you can't write yourself then don't criticize" comment a while back. That's not a particularly productive view towards criticism. It is entirely possible to point out things that are bad (or good) about a work while having a lower skill level than the person who produced it, and such criticism is not rendered invalid by the lesser skill level. To make an analogy, I can't compose music worth beans, but I can tell when something really doesn't sound good.

Like others in the thread, I don't have much of a writing background, but I can still tell that run-ons liberally sprinkled with commas are not technically correct or stylistically good. (Style can sometimes but not always override correctness, but there is a time and a place and neither are here.) My skill level doesn't negate that.

Likewise, suppose for the sake of argument I don't know how to make a cake (I do, but this is a hypothetical). My friend puts salt in his cake instead of sugar. Is my criticism of "whoa dude I think you mixed up some ingredients there" negated by my lack of knowledge of baking?

It's entirely possible to know what is good or bad, or at least some examples of good or bad in a given medium without being experienced in it. Common, even. The best response to criticism from someone with a lower skill level is to examine what they said for potential truth (especially if it's a technical criticism, like grammar in writing or anatomy in a figure drawing) and then decide what to do about it-- not to throw it away simply based on skill level. My art classmates frequently call me on anatomy; some of them are better than me, some have strengths in different areas. I'm not going to turn to my friend who specializes in abstract and reflexively snap "you don't know anything about anatomy, don't tell me what to do" when she tells me my figure's legs are slightly different lengths, because she still might be on to something that I didn't catch on my own.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Kiryn

[Anacybele]

There's nothing wrong with telling the truth. Being a dick about it like they were is what's wrong.

EDIT: Kiryn, that would simply be a case of knowing what you're talking about. I realize I said that if you don't know how to bake a cake, don't critique someone else's cake, but that doesn't mean you can't leave a simple comment or point out an error that you CAN find, even with little knowledge on baking.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Anacybele

[Nanami Touko]

Maybe because I do know what proper critique is.

Your knowledge of proper criticism is proportionate to how short I am.

There's nothing wrong with telling the truth. Being a dick about it like they were is what's wrong.

Grow a spine, ya big baby.

[I.M. Gei]

EB, I'd suggest going to DeviantART where you'll find people not only far more tolerating of your hostility to criticism, but even willing to white knight you as well.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Black★Rock Shooter

[Life]

Challenge fucking accepted.

There are those who are great writers, great artists, or great at other things. They share their creations with all of us so we can see them. Then there’s us, the ones who are supposed to give the feedback and constructive criticism. What exactly is a good critique, though? I bet a lot of people ask that question. Thankfully, I’m here to answer it. I honestly feel I need to, but why? There are probably more critics out there than there are actual writers, artists, and other such people.

It's a two-way street. If you want constructive criticism, we can give it to you. If we give critique, you have to actually accept it. If something's good, the majority of people will say so. If it's crap, you can bet your ass that I at least will call you out on it.

Anyway, it doesn’t matter if you’re critiquing a piece of writing, a drawing, a recipe, or a comic about evil circus clowns who want to take over New York. The elements to a good critique are the same. You want to be firm and you want to be honest. You also want to know what you’re talking about and have good observation skills. Lastly, and most importantly, you want to encourage the person to keep doing what they do and improve further. It might sound simple, and maybe it is, but you still have to know exactly what to say, even while keeping all of this in mind.

First of all, there should be no comma after "or" in the first sentence. And, you, still, overuse, commas, in, sentences. Last sentence to be exact. This is fucking Grade 9 English. I shouldn't have to tell you that.

Ok, elements of critique. Be firm. Oh, I was firm. Be honest. You bet your ass I was honest; your writing stank. Know what I'm talking about. Well, I'm going to study English Lit when I go back to school so I think I do. Good observation skills. Have tons of them. Encourage the person to keep doing what they do and to improve further. Hmm, problem arising.

See, I would encourage you to try over but you're so resistant to taking criticism from anyone that it's really wasted on you. You are absolutely determined to stay a shitty writer, no matter the cost. Why? Because in your fucked up little brain of yours, you actually consider yourself a good writer.

Nobody wants to feel like a miserable failure, so don’t go saying things that will make them feel that way when critiquing. Be honest, be firm and polite, know what you’re talking about, observe well, and once again, be encouraging. I can’t stress these enough. Now get out there and critique without being a jerk!

To be honest, if I didn't recognize that you have no fucking clue how to use commas, I'd think that you plagerized this entire essay. And besides, your definition of constructive criticism isn't the same as ours. If it was, you wouldn't be twisting my words and trying to turn everything into a personal attack.

Edited December 2, 2011 by Bblader

[Integrity]

Hell, this one's easy enough I'll even get in on the fun with a short bit.

Next, be good at observing and for goodness sake, know what you’re freaking talking about. If you don’t know much about baking a cake, don’t critique someone else’s cake.

False. I know a lot about EATING cakes, so I criticize people who bake cakes poorly. I know a lot about READING fantasy, so I criticize people who write fantasy poorly. I never have to claim that I can bake the perfect cake to say "wow this cake tastes like ass".

I could do more, but I suspect I'll become obsolete very shortly.

/tips hat, leaves

[Parrhesia]

Yo dawg, I heard you like critique.

A Good Critique

There are those who are great writers, great artists, or great at other things.

Critiquers?

They share their creations with all of us so we can see them. Then there’s us, the ones who are supposed to give the feedback and constructive criticism. What exactly is a good critique, though? I bet a lot of people ask that question. Thankfully, I’m here to answer it.

HEAVENS BE PRAISED

I honestly feel I need to, but why? There are probably more critics out there than there are actual writers, artists, and other such people.

...Good?

Anyway, it doesn’t matter if you’re critiquing a piece of writing, a drawing, a recipe, or a comic about evil circus clowns who want to take over New York. The elements to a good critique are the same. You want to be firm and you want to be honest.

Yes. A good example was provided in the 'Dawn of Darkness' fanfic feedback page, where its flaws were pointed out repeatedly and very, very firmly.

You also want to know what you’re talking about and have good observation skills.

Sure.

Lastly, and most importantly, you want to encourage the person to keep doing what they do and improve further.

'Improve further' is more important than 'keep going'. Trust me. If they keep going, they better fucking improve.

It might sound simple, and maybe it is, but you still have to know exactly what to say, even while keeping all of this in mind.

The first element is be firm and be honest.

And to repeat your points. Repeatedly.

Even if you’re a friend of the person you’re critiquing, don’t be afraid to point out the bad parts of whatever he or she created. I get sick of seeing people say that friends only tell you what you want to hear and that they only want to make you feel good. It’s nonsense. A true friend would always be truthful and help a person improve. They would never lie.

The question remains; who are these 'true friends,' and how does the writer know?

There are ways to point out the negative without hurting the other people’s feelings.

...But they aren't as fun.

It’s all about tone of voice and choice of words. Still, even when giving positive feedback, critique isn’t all sugar and candy.

It's like an extended bondage session, and all authors are masochists in the end.

Being too nice can cause a person to believe that they’re better at something than they really are.

Again; prime example in Dawn of Darkness.

That’s why you must be firm, as well as truthful and polite.

Polite? I don't follow.

Next, be good at observing and for goodness sake, know what you’re freaking talking about. If you don’t know much about baking a cake, don’t critique someone else’s cake.

"This pie tastes like horseshit."

"YOU'VE NEVER BAKED A PIE IN YOUR LIFE"

"It tastes of fucking horseshit, ma, I know what I'm fucking talking about."

It’s common sense. Good observational skills let you easily spot typos and grammatical errors in writing as well as anatomical or proportional issues in drawings.

You don't need to be an artist or a writer to find this in others.

This is even essential to being a writer or artist or whatever yourself. If you can spot your own mistakes well, excellent. You’re already on your way to being a good critic or artist, writer, etc.

The last and most important thing is to encourage the person.

We've been through this and it sounded unimportant then.

Tell them to keep at it and keep improving. Or even better, you can tell them to keep up the good work or something similar.

A requirement for 'keeping up the good work' is to have good work in the first place. Most fanfic writers don't.

The nicest thing any writer or artist or whatever could hear is someone telling them not to give up on pursing their dream of being a master at what they do.

Unfortunately, most writers and artists aren't good enough to pursue their dreams without a lot of work. This is what critique is for.

Whether it’s to be a published author, a famous artist, a cartoonist, or something else I’m not thinking of. Saying something similar to “this looks good, but I think there are things that could be improved” is also quite helpful.

This fails to account for things that don't look good.

It tells the person that they have potential.

Some people don't.

It’s truthful, yet not hurtful or discouraging. In fact, it’s more encouraging than anything.

Nobody wants to feel like a miserable failure, so don’t go saying things that will make them feel that way when critiquing. Be honest, be firm and polite, know what you’re talking about, observe well, and once again, be encouraging. I can’t stress these enough. Now get out there and critique without being a jerk!

I think there needs to be an essay on TAKING critique. With lines like "Don't let someone who's trying to help you make you feel like a miserable failure." Or "don't feel insulted when someone tries to make your work better."

[Life]

I'll admit that I did it to counter Bblader's Ramblings piece, but I never wrote it to bitch at people. Just to teach others how to critique. :3

Hi. That thing isn't about you. It's not designed to be a story or anything. It's not even supposed to be coherent. It's literally thoughts that pass through my mind.

[Anacybele]

First of all, there should be no comma after "or" in the first sentence. And, you, still, overuse, commas, in, sentences. Last sentence to be exact. This is fucking Grade 9 English. I shouldn't have to tell you that.

There is no comma after "or" in that sentence. And the last one only has three commas, same as in the first one. You really have poor observational skills, my friend.

Ok, elements of critique. Be firm. Oh, I was firm. Be honest. You bet your ass I was honest; your writing stank. Know what I'm talking about. Well, I'm going to study English Lit when I go back to school so I think I do. Good observation skills. Have tons of them. Encourage the person to keep doing what they do and to improve further. Hmm, problem arising.

See, I would encourage you to try over but you're so resistant to taking criticism from anyone that it's really wasted on you. You are absolutely determined to stay a shitty writer, no matter the cost. Why? Because in your fucked up little brain of yours, you actually consider yourself a good writer.

To be honest, if I didn't recognize that you have no fucking clue how to use commas, I'd think that you plagerized this entire essay. And besides, your definition of constructive criticism isn't the same as ours. If it was, you wouldn't be twisting my words and trying to turn everything into a personal attack.

Haha, you think I plagiarized this? Wow. Just wow. You are hilarious.

[Original Alear]

Just a thought: criticism is often evaluative, not instructive. It is not necessarily the job of the critic to tell you how to write. It is more their job to express the effect of how you write. If someone pointed this out already I apologize.

[Jaybee]

Haha, you think I plagiarized this? Wow. Just wow. You are hilarious.

Haha, that's the only thing you picked up from those 3 paragraphs? Wow. Just wow. You are really fucking retarded.

[Anacybele]

Actually, I ignored most of it. ;)

[Life]

There is no comma after "or" in that sentence. And the last one only has three commas, same as in the first one. You really have poor observational skills, my friend.

My bad about "or". But that last sentence STILL has too many commas especially since I can trade it out for some brackets (because that's what it needs). Try to restrict yourself to... let's say ONE per sentence. Maximum.

[Parrhesia]

Actually, I ignored most of it. ;)

That isn't a good thing.

[Anacybele]

I have never seen brackets used in fiction and I've read a lot of fiction in my life.

[Life]

Actually, I ignored most of it. ;)

FUCKING HELL, HERE'S MY POINT.

How can you ignore criticism on an essay ABOUT criticism? That's what we call hypocritical.

[Anacybele]

Simple. I don't believe you gave me good criticism. Guess what, though? You're going on my ignore list now. So bub-bye! ^^

[Life]

Simple. I don't believe you gave me good criticism. Guess what, though? You're going on my ignore list now. So bub-bye! ^^

Took long enough.

But you're still a hypocrite. Can't change that.

[I.M. Gei]

Simple. I don't believe you gave me good criticism. Guess what, though? You're going on my ignore list now. So bub-bye! ^^

Which, in turn, gives us a good measure of your maturity. Not even that you use the ignore list, but that you publicly announce it.