Tryhard Posted April 21, 2019 Share Posted April 21, 2019 (edited) you brought up how terrible things are there, i don't doubt it - but how terrible things are there does not mean anything. there are no good solutions. and then you say you don't know what I'm arguing about? I mean, okay. I suppose I mostly agree that criticising Guaido is not a good focus of anger. but if you want to talk about the economic problems, from my understanding: wasn't hugo chavez mostly the same sort of iron fisted dictator type who slammed the opposition, but he lifted many people out of poverty in venezuela and is still regarded as the most popular Venezuelan president? I understand it's probably a lot more complicated than that but the huge economic fuckery surrounding Maduro is probably not a good start. Edited April 21, 2019 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Tryhard said: but if you want to talk about the economic problems, from my understanding: wasn't hugo chavez mostly the same sort of iron fisted dictator type who slammed the opposition, but he lifted many people out of poverty in venezuela and is still regarded as the most popular Venezuelan president? I understand it's probably a lot more complicated than that but the huge economic fuckery surrounding Maduro is probably not a good start. Yeah, and he was already a problem back then, and a huge one for Venezuela, but people weren't dying, so it was not as urgent. The elections were at least partly free back then (the 2018 one was the "fake one") and he hadn't stripped the parliament out of their powers, which were the boiling points IMO. Had Chavez not been authoritarian, as soon as things had gone bad, he or Maduro would've been replaced, and different policies would've been applied. The sort of crisis Venezuela is in is not a simple "economic" crisis, it's deeply political. Take its inflation of over a million percent a year. It's not something that naturally happens. The way Chavez and maduro "tried" fighting inflation was freezing prices. This leads to shortages, due to the fact that you're not going to produce something if it doesn't give you money. This might seem like the "evil elite refusing to produce because they won't profit", but the thing is, with prices frozen, farmers and the like would literally have to spend more money than they earn, It's not sustainable, even for the most willing person. The same thing happened here in Brazil during the late 80s (to a much lesser extant), and since the president at the time wasn't a dictator (Sarney, the first president after the dictatorship), it was taken back before things got worse. In a dictatorship, there's no accountability. They also tried to fund everything through oil, so obviously when prices went down, they couldn't keep up with the funding. It's not primarily an economic crisis if basically the only reason it's so bad is political. Had they had a center left government rather than Chavez (something like PT, for exemple lol), when the prices crash happened, the most that would've happened to them would've been a big recession and then a stagnated decade as we're having here in Brazil, which is a billion times better than what's happening there right now. I'm not suggesting any solution, because if I had a solution for that mess I'd be a respected political scientist, I'm arguing against misdirected anger and victim blaming. Edited April 22, 2019 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 2 hours ago, Nobody said: I said I'd not bother anymore but it's stronger than me How is this an economic crisis only when Maduro is a DICTATOR who forbid people from running on the past election, stripped the parliament out of its powers and keeps opressing people? The Venezuelan parliament (which was STRIPPED OF ITS POWERS) is the only democratically elected body remaining in Venezuela. Had Bolsonaro done 1/3 of what Maduro did, you'd be here (rightfully) bitching for anyone to take him out of power, so you should just shut up and listen to what venezuelans have to say (most of them want maduro gone anyway) How is it an economic crisis? Well, because the country started to go to shit in the beginning of the decade years before Maduro got elected. He won the elections in 2013 fair and square (by a very small margin, too!), and things took a turn for the worse circa 2015, when oil prices were horribly low, thus breaking Venezuela's economy basically beyond repair. That's why I say it is an economical crisis first and foremost, because it preceeded the current political tensions, and the clear oversight during the Chavez years planted the seeds to that. We must not forget that Venezuela has a recent history with coups, and those still happen today. Chavez tried one in the 90s and failed. His opposition (read: economical elites and big media corporations) actually managed to detain him for two days in 2002, just two years after he got democratically elected - in fact, it is what led him to be more of a militaristic figure. Guaidó, whether you liked Maduro or not, tried a coup - you can't just be an autoproclaim yourself to be the president and not expect any repercussions. But, there was some upside in Chavez' government, economically speaking. I always have to say this because Maduro is logically a controversial figure and there are tons of foreign actors involved, as well as misinformation, but I don't like him at all. However, I really wouldn't call him a dictator (the very fact that there is a parliament full of opposition members in a dictatorship is weird, and Guaidó wouldn't really be breathing right now), but instead a really authoritarian figure. As of today, not a dictator. Going back to Guaidó, let's just say that protesting isn't, in this particular context, an isolated act. Like Tryhard said, he is pretty clearly backed by the US government (and since we mentioned Bolton, a while ago he mentioned the Monroe Doctrine, which of course means some horrible shit is going down). Furthermore, economic sanctions don't help AT ALL - how is sanctioning an already fucked country, with ridiculous inflation, helping or solving anything? How is someone like Guaidó, who's barely an unanymous figure among the opposition, going to govern in a way that is that much better? Things can get worse. Tensions getting higher in Brazil, with the presidential family (at this point, it is this) saying tons of interventionist remarks, and the ELN (the biggest guerrilla group post-FARC) also supporting Maduro in Colombia, which doesn't have the best of diplomatic relations with Venezuela, can lead to actual conflict. Global powers like the US and Russia/China are directly involved in this region, as they were involved in other regions of the planet. The deposition of authoritarian/dictarorial leaders doesn't always leads to progress. Libya is the prime and maybe most extreme example of this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Яei Яei said: I always have to say this because Maduro is logically a controversial figure and there are tons of foreign actors involved, as well as misinformation, but I don't like him at all. However, I really wouldn't call him a dictator (the very fact that there is a parliament full of opposition members in a dictatorship is weird, and Guaidó wouldn't really be breathing right now), but instead a really authoritarian figure. As of today, not a dictator. The parliament was stripped of power and he appointed a fake parliament, unelected, with only supporters. In a democracry, the legislative is as important as the executive. How is strippring a parliament out of power anything other than being a dictator? Also, as I said, the Venezuelan constitution isn't worth absolutely anything now, but there is an article on it that says that in case the governement tries to seize power for themselves, it's the role of the president of the parliament (i.e. Guaido) to become interim president and call new elections. So he's doing exactly what the long dead Venezuelan constitution predicted. "(the very fact that there is a parliament full of opposition members in a dictatorship is weird, and Guaidó wouldn't really be breathing right now)" "Como o governo militar foi uma ditadura? Só 300 pessoas morreram e elas eram criminosas e terroristas. Tinha até uma oposição no congresso, o MDB" This is literally, not taking or adding anything, the military dictatorship apologist argument. Read it again, compare it to what our country lived in the 70s and notice how ridiculous this quote is. Then take the fact that the venezuelan parliament doesn't have any power left whatsoever and it becomes even more ridiculous. Edited April 22, 2019 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Not being able to edit my post, on the venezuelan oposition controlled parliament and the new one the government created to replace it "On 8 August 2017, the Constituent Assembly declared itself to be the government branch with supreme power in Venezuela, banning the opposition-led National Assembly from performing actions that would interfere with the assembly while continuing to pass measures in "support and solidarity" with President Maduro.[13] On 18 August 2017, the Assembly gave itself the power to pass legislation and override the National Assembly on issues concerning “preservation of peace, security, sovereignty, the socio-economic and financial system” [14] and then stripped the National Assembly of its legislative powers the following day.[15] The opposition-led National Assembly responded, stating it would not recognize the Constituent Assembly.[16]" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 on unrelated notes https://outline.com/mNAgfy lmao literally sarney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, Nobody said: "(the very fact that there is a parliament full of opposition members in a dictatorship is weird, and Guaidó wouldn't really be breathing right now)" "Como o governo militar foi uma ditadura? Só 300 pessoas morreram e elas eram criminosas e terroristas. Tinha até uma oposição no congresso, o MDB" This is literally, not taking or adding anything, the military dictatorship apologist argument. Read it again, compare it to what our country lived in the 70s and notice how ridiculous this quote is. Then take the fact that the venezuelan parliament doesn't have any power left whatsoever and it becomes even more ridiculous. As I've said, he IS authoritarian. You aren't wrong at all when you mention the measures he took. But here is the thing: they actively tried to take him down, like they did so in recent times, and did so years prior. It isn't an "consensual opposition", like MDB was during most of the dictatorship, and that's how the comparison kinda falls apart, even though I understand where you are coming from. When MDB started gaining traction as a legit opposition, Figueiredo made sure to weaken them as much as he could. Another difference is that the Venezuelan opposition is weak because there isn't a cohesive unit, instead of purely because of Maduro's actions. Some are Chavists, some deny it altogether, some think is a weak movement, for example. Guaidó himself is far from being a strong political figure, and the decision he made to proclaim himself president was surprising to many, including Henrique Capriles, another opposition figure (who actually ran against Chavez, and later Maduro - and came very close to beating them), who made similar criticisms about the lack of cohesion or strong action. Quando Macri vai parar de mitar? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 fuckin' state of Ukraine, man Poroshenko lost to a comedian smh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Oh yeah, heard about that. That reminds me. Didn't another comedian already tried to run for president in like... Guatemala or somewhere around there? I'm probably getting the region wrong, as it is... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julius Nepos Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 3 hours ago, Nobody said: Also, as I said, the Venezuelan constitution isn't worth absolutely anything now, but there is an article on it that says that in case the governement tries to seize power for themselves, it's the role of the president of the parliament (i.e. Guaido) to become interim president and call new elections. So he's doing exactly what the long dead Venezuelan constitution predicted. That's not quite true. Article 187 says that the President of the National Assembly shall act as Acting President in the case of a vacancy of the Presidency. The article is written for circumstances such as the sudden death or resignation of a President, not for coups. Guaidó is pulling an extensive interpretation of the article by saying that Maduro is not President because the elections were fake. It's a possible interpretation, but it's quite a stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 Oh shit there was an Earthquake in Manilla @Karimlan are you ok Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted April 22, 2019 Share Posted April 22, 2019 (edited) Oh man. I recently read an earthquake hit Taiwan a few days ago. Think there is a relation? Aw man, hours ago it quaked over in southern Mexico... and now I just felt one over here in the northwest. Edited April 23, 2019 by Acacia Sgt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 I voted for Tabata Amaral but holy shit her fanboys are horrible. Any criticism, as well founded as it may be, is met with some lazy distortions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted April 23, 2019 Share Posted April 23, 2019 LULA SOLTO AMANHÃ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 https://www.politico.com/story/2019/04/17/trump-bolton-sanctions-latin-america-1279709 dude just wants to be the most evil fuck in the US government Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Yes, please sanction Cuba while they are making actual progress and turning into a more open society. Fuck Bolton. The USA has been nothing more than a fucking vulture over this continent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) I do think he's legitimately the worst US official right now. In terms of being evil, at least. The fact he was too extreme for even the Bush administration is just scary. Mike Pompeo is probably up there as well for going around talking about the Rapture casually as a true believer and dictating policies around a fundamentalist death cult philosophy of allying with Israel so the Rapture can happen. And Gina Haspel for taking personally part in torture of individuals and then covering it up by destroying tapes. Real nice work draining the swamp Trump when I can think of three of the worst US officials in recent memory in the same administration, and probably a lot more I'm forgetting. Edited April 24, 2019 by Tryhard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 (edited) feeling weirdly nostalgic for persona 5 ? Edited April 24, 2019 by Nobody Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MisterIceTeaPeach Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Same I could say for Smash Ultimate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 ha ha ha stupid gaijins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rei Rei Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Gamers are the most oppressed minority Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acacia Sgt Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 Debating on the exact nature of select changes to history through time travel are a headache and half... and I'll leave it like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tryhard Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 18 hours ago, Nobody said: feeling weirdly nostalgic for persona 5 ? is smt v even still being worked on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted April 24, 2019 Share Posted April 24, 2019 2 minutes ago, Tryhard said: is smt v even still being worked on? i hope so Atlus might have forgotten about it tho btw bought sekiro yesterday (finally), now I have to wait for it to arrive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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