Aftergame replay suggestions

[I.M. Gei]

why use any GM when you have Ike, Titania, and Haar?

[Rapier]

why use any GM when you have Ike, Titania, and Haar?

They help kill moar

[Zanarkin]

They help kill moar

But everything is dying to ike/titania/haar anyway...

[Junkhead]

Not if Titania and Haar don't double.

[CrashGordon94]

Also, not everyone is an efficiency player who only uses three characters, people play their games differently.

[Rapier]

But everything is dying to ike/titania/haar anyway...

Inb4 they get swarmed and die.

[I.M. Gei]

Inb4 they get swarmed and die.

You have to be a special kind of incompetent to see those three die, even on HM. Really, they make the rest of the game pointless! Trivial! Bottom tier for everyone else!

I mean, do you get where we're going with this? Can you see how shaky your "herp derp unit X is overshadowed so she sucks" logic is?

Edited December 27, 2011 by Black★Rock Shooter

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i bet if Nephy was switched for Aran in this situration, noone would rush to defend him.

[Bryan]

i bet if Nephy was switched for Aran in this situration, noone would rush to defend him.

For one, she's got two chapters on him.

Two, you can have her being a tier three unit going into part three because of how much BEXP you get from 2-3. You can't have Aran as a Tier three unit without screwing over every other character in part one. (If even that.)

Three, who else are you going to use in part two? You pretty much have the Knights, who have 3 1/2 chapters to play in until endgame, Lucia one chapter before endgame. You have the laguz, and Marcia. Harr and Elinca are only there for 2-P and 2-F. And Brom is ugly. Heather's not to bad though, she does net you a bolting if you trained her.

In part one, I have Miccy, Sothe, Edward, Nolan, (I like to train Ilyana as well) Jill, Volug, then you get the BK and Naliah. Why would you ever want to use a solider that some people kill because they thought he was just some random?

That's three points in Neph's favor, and that doesn't even take stats into account.

Edited December 27, 2011 by Bryan

[Rapier]

You have to be a special kind of incompetent to see those three die, even on HM. Really, they make the rest of the game pointless! Trivial! Bottom tier for everyone else!

I mean, do you get where we're going with this? Can you see how shaky your "herp derp unit X is overshadowed so she sucks" logic is?

No. Every single one of your replies are about how godly chars like Ike pwn so there's no use for anyone else.

[I.M. Gei]

No. Every single one of your replies are about how godly chars like Ike pwn so there's no use for anyone else.

facepalm^infinity

^{Do you not see that this is pretty much an extension of your own logic, taken to its logical end? If Neph sucks because "she's overshadowed," then what stops every other character except the very best from being considered "bad units" as well?}

Edited December 27, 2011 by Black★Rock Shooter

[Rapier]

facepalm^infinity

^{Do you not see that this is pretty much an extension of your own logic, taken to its logical end?}

No, that's what YOU saw and assumed in my post. How many times do I have to say that leaving an unit behind because it isn't as good as X unit =/= leaving all units behind because X units pwn enough? It's the same logic you use to choose Shinon and Rolf instead of Leonardo.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

For one, she's got two chapters on him.

Two, you can have her being a tier three unit going into part three because of how much BEXP you get from 2-3. You can't have Aran as a Tier three unit without screwing over every other character in part one. (If even that.)

Three, who else are you going to use in part two? You pretty much have the Knights, who have 3 1/2 chapters to play in until endgame, Lucia one chapter before endgame. You have the laguz, and Marcia. Harr and Elinca are only there for 2-P and 2-F. And Brom is ugly. Heather's not to bad though, she does net you a bolting if you trained her.

In part one, I have Miccy, Sothe, Edward, Nolan, (I like to train Ilyana as well) Jill, Volug, then you get the BK and Naliah. Why would you ever want to use a solider that some people kill because they thought he was just some random?

That's three points in Neph's favor, and that doesn't even take stats into account.

so he's inferior to other units so he's not worth using?

that sounds alot like what that dude is saying about Nephy, honestly both of them are worth using in thier own way.

you can't just say that "Nephy might be inferior to Ike and group but that doesn't make her worthless" then completely turn around and say something like "Zihawk is outclassed by Mia so he's worthless" (as an example, though i have a feeling thats inaccurate)

Edited December 28, 2011 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Kirisoul]

i bet if Nephy was switched for Aran in this situration, noone would rush to defend him.

I would! Just finished hard mode and brought him into the endgame team, he's actually awesome if you give him some attention. Training him in part 1 is hard (might need a speedwing to stop him from getting doubled) but it's very possible for him to cap def, str, and skl by promotion. Even in pt. 1, he's one of the more reliable damage dealers and can actually connect with a javelin. Once he's a halberdier he becomes as useful as Nolan, and caps those three stats again, but this time earlier making him excellent bexp material. I actually managed to cap his speed as a halberdier, and that essentially made Nephenee irrelevant, even though I had a radiance transfer in str, skl, and spd on her.

[I.M. Gei]

I would! Just finished hard mode and brought him into the endgame team, he's actually awesome if you give him some attention. Training him in part 1 is hard (might need a speedwing to stop him from getting doubled) but it's very possible for him to cap def, str, and skl by promotion. Even in pt. 1, he's one of the more reliable damage dealers and can actually connect with a javelin.

lolwut? He's still inaccurate as all hell, and why would most people here give Aran a Wing to save his sorry ass from getting doubled instead of, say, making Titania and Haar able to double?

Once he's a halberdier he becomes as useful as Nolan,

no. Nolan slams Aran quite soundly in Part 3 largely due to his superiority with Beastfoe (Aran with Beastfoe and a max-MT Steel Lance forge caps out at 71 MT; in other words, he fails to OHKO the 52 HP/20 DEF tigers no matter what leve he reaches in Tier 2); he's easier to raise in Part 1 because of his overall better bases and levelling circumstances.

and caps those three stats again, but this time earlier making him excellent bexp material. I actually managed to cap his speed as a halberdier, and that essentially made Nephenee irrelevant, even though I had a radiance transfer in str, skl, and spd on her.

How does that make Nephenee (T) irrelevant again? She's now trainwrecking her joining chapter and one SPD proc lets her continue her double/O-2RKO most everything into the next chapters and makes her far easier to raise during part 2 and 3. Aran, on the other hand, still has serious issues for Parts 3 and 4 even if you feed him a bunch of levels during part 1.

[Kirisoul]

lolwut? He's still inaccurate as all hell, and why would most people here give Aran a Wing to save his sorry ass from getting doubled instead of, say, making Titania and Haar able to double?

no. Nolan slams Aran quite soundly in Part 3 largely due to his superiority with Beastfoe (Aran with Beastfoe and a max-MT Steel Lance forge caps out at 71 MT; in other words, he fails to OHKO the 52 HP/20 DEF tigers no matter what leve he reaches in Tier 2); he's easier to raise in Part 1 because of his overall better bases and levelling circumstances.

How does that make Nephenee (T) irrelevant again? She's now trainwrecking her joining chapter and one SPD proc lets her continue her double/O-2RKO most everything into the next chapters and makes her far easier to raise during part 2 and 3. Aran, on the other hand, still has serious issues for Parts 3 and 4 even if you feed him a bunch of levels during part 1.

His accuracy isn't that bad, he can get around 70 with a javelin and 90 with regular lances... Titania is a valid choice, maybe it's just because I came from hard mode, but Haar can't really double anything past 3-3 anyway (24 speed can only go so far), except for mages and generals, and I usually save those for nephenee and soren respectively. He'll reach his cap or get 23 anyway, so it seems like a waste.

Hm, I didn't consider beastfoe in pt.3, that's a good point. Still, Nephenee does have some str. and def. issues through most of part 3. She also tends to cap spd, skl, and res which makes it a bit awkward to use bexp since you may get luck or mag over str, def, or hp, and Nephenee needs bexp since her str and def tend to fail compared to everyone else without it. Aran has issues in pt. 3 and 4 only if he somehow failed to cap his 3 key stats or no bexp was invested. If you give him a few levels or a wing, his speed can flourish, since he has a nice cap. Nephenee's 3rd tier speed cap is only one point higher than Aran's and if you gave him a wing or bexp, he can easily reach it, at which point he becomes a beast. Not saying that Nep. is bad (I used her in my first 2 runs+she can have radiance transfers) but just defending Aran from complete obscurity, since he can be great.

[I.M. Gei]

His accuracy isn't that bad, he can get around 70 with a javelin and 90 with regular lances... Titania is a valid choice, maybe it's just because I came from hard mode, but Haar can't really double anything past 3-3 anyway (24 speed can only go so far), except for mages and generals, and I usually save those for nephenee and soren respectively. He'll reach his cap or get 23 anyway, so it seems like a waste.

Haar only needs to hit 24 SPD around 3-5 or so; after that, you can crown him and he's golden up until Endgame, since he's doubling and 2HKOing most enemies with generic weapons.

Still, Nephenee does have some str. and def. issues through most of part 3.

That's hardly unmanageable, especially with transfers; STR transfer essentially mitigates the need for a Drop, and by 3-4, 3 Dracoshields have made themselves available (though I use the DB's on Nolan, personally). Moreover, the Drops and Dracoshields are far less contested than the Speedwing Aran desperately wants.

She also tends to cap spd, skl, and res which makes it a bit awkward to use bexp since you may get luck or mag over str, def, or hp, and Nephenee needs bexp since her str and def tend to fail compared to everyone else without it. Aran has issues in pt. 3 and 4 only if he somehow failed to cap his 3 key stats or no bexp was invested. If you give him a few levels or a wing, his speed can flourish, since he has a nice cap. Nephenee's 3rd tier speed cap is only one point higher than Aran's and if you gave him a wing or bexp, he can easily reach it, at which point he becomes a beast. Not saying that Nep. is bad (I used her in my first 2 runs+she can have radiance transfers) but just defending Aran from complete obscurity, since he can be great.

I dunno about you, but I'd much rather not save all the part 2 and part 3 BEXP--which can be used to keep the GMs up to par and making sure their combat parameters are where you need them to be--just so Aran won't fail horribly in part 4.What BEXP I have left after getting a couple of units ready for part 4 is usually spent on getting Nolan from, say, 20/16 to 20/20 and then crowning him. But hey, to each their own I guess.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Black★Rock Shooter

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

oh dear, i've started an Aran and Nephy debate when i was just using an example...

i should've said someone esle that isn't a soldier...like Boyd or Edward.

[Kirisoul]

Haar only needs to hit 24 SPD around 3-5 or so; after that, you can crown him and he's golden up until Endgame, since he's doubling and 2HKOing most enemies with generic weapons.

That's hardly unmanageable, especially with transfers; STR transfer essentially mitigates the need for a Drop, and by 3-4, 3 Dracoshields have made themselves available (though I use the DB's on Nolan, personally). Moreover, the Drops and Dracoshields are far less contested than the Speedwing Aran desperately wants.

I dunno about you, but I'd much rather not save all the part 2 and part 3 BEXP--which can be used to keep the GMs up to par and making sure their combat parameters are where you need them to be--just so Aran won't fail horribly in part 4.What BEXP I have left after getting a couple of units ready for part 4 is usually spent on getting Nolan from, say, 20/16 to 20/20 and then crowning him. But hey, to each their own I guess.

Yeah, 24 spd isn't too hard for Haar to reach normally anyway, so I find the use of a speedwing redundant. If you manage to crown anyone (at a high level) in part 3 they will beast to endgame. I usually use it on Titania or Shinon though, especially Shinon since he caps most of his useful stats without bexp.

Keep in mind I'm talking about hard mode here, Nephenee can realistically be in the mid teens by the time you get her, unless you managed to epically baby her in part 2 (difficult even with transfers.) That means even with a drop she hits about 21 str, which the only things she'll be 1RKOing is the mages. Tie that in with low defense, and she isn't a reliable frontliner (unless she has a great avoid support.)

I also think the impression that Aran must have a speedwing to survive is being exaggerated, the speedwing will allow him to double once he grows, and will prevent him from getting doubled by the cats and myrmidons, but it's not a problem that's unworkable. If you train him (without bexp or wing), he can hit 17 or so by the time he's a halberdier, meaning only the cats can double him and he won't be fazed due to his defense which will probably already be capped at 25. And if you do invest a bit, he can start doubling the 16 spd tigers.

Honestly, he doesn't even need too much bexp. His spd gets to 31 (looking at the RD average stats page) by just leveling normally, so just 2 levels of bexp can cap it, and with the rate that he caps his other stats, it's not unreasonable to do so in pt. 3 or even pt. 1 if you're willing to part with a chapter or two's bexp. And if you actually invest a more than 2, when he's a sentinel he'll be untouchable, especially if you abuse his excellent thunder affinity for support. He's really not as bad as some like to think of him. I just tried him for the heck of it since hard mode is awful with only nolan and sothe to reliably take hits (volug actually can be owned by fire mages there and his dodge is bad) and I was surprised by the results. Mine has capped everything but mag and luck and I didn't pay particularly special attention to him.

[I.M. Gei]

Yeah, 24 spd isn't too hard for Haar to reach normally anyway, so I find the use of a speedwing redundant. If you manage to crown anyone (at a high level) in part 3 they will beast to endgame. I usually use it on Titania or Shinon though, especially Shinon since he caps most of his useful stats without beep.

He has base 20 SPD and a 30% growth. He's not getting to 24 SPD reasonably without a Wing, give me a break.

Keep in mind I'm talking about hard mode here, Nephenee can realistically be in the mid teens by the time you get her, unless you managed to epically baby her in part 2 (difficult even with transfers.) That means even with a drop she hits about 21 str, which the only things she'll be 1RKOing is the mages. Tie that in with low defense, and she isn't a reliable frontliner (unless she has a great avoid support.)

...no. Nephenee with a STR and SPD transfer doubles everything in her joining chapter, ORKOs all but 5 enemies (boss included), and those 5 enemies left, she 2RKOs. Enemy density isn't high enough in 2-1 to be a problem for her; now that she pwns the face off of everything at one-range in her joining chapter (and even for much of 2-2), she at worst has to move to the next group of enemies, pop a Vulnerary, and sit back and watch the enemies suicide into her. Seriously, here is the HM enemy stats topic. Do tell me what 33 ATK/21 AS can't 1-2RKO in 2-1. Of course, even with normal Nephenee, she still needs some favoritism in order to get ready for part 3, but it's not babying (she's not getting O-2RKO'd by anything, much unlike Aran who gets 2RKO'd by the whole map just one chapter after he joins, and she generally 2-3RKOs in her joining chapter until you can ferry her a Steel Lance in 2-2).

I also think the impression that Aran must have a speedwing to survive is being exaggerated, the speedwing will allow him to double once he grows, and will prevent him from getting doubled by the cats and myrmidons, but it's not a problem that's unworkable. If you train him (without bexp or wing), he can hit 17 or so by the time he's a halberdier, meaning only the cats can double him and he won't be fazed due to his defense which will probably already be capped at 25. And if you do invest a bit, he can start doubling the 16 spd tigers.

"Once he grows." Giving a Speedwing to Aran still has a significant opportunity cost attached to it; it's going to a recipient who needs it to stop getting doubled instead of a recipient who uses it to double and ORKO instead. And here, we use averages; at 20/1 (assuming you get him there), Aran averages 15.55 SPD (hell if you want to play the "he can hit 17 or so SPD" game, I can just as easily say "He can only have 14 AS at 20/1, get doubled by a Tiger, then good fucking game). He's literally at an arms race to not get doubled for much of the part, and as early as 1-5, 15 AS Myrmidons can double and 4HKO--2RKO--him, for example (without the 1-4 Seraph Robe). Do bear in mind that the Speedwing doesn't come until the tail end of 1-E.

Honestly, he doesn't even need too much bexp. His spd gets to 31 (looking at the RD average stats page) by just leveling normally, so just 2 levels of bexp can cap it, and with the rate that he caps his other stats, it's not unreasonable to do so in pt. 3 or even pt. 1 if you're willing to part with a chapter or two's beep.

Thing is, I can't even pump any BEXP into Aran for much of part 1 without seriously screwing his SPD, and in part 1, when I need to pump BEXP into Jill and Nolan to keep them up to par (and get them ready for part 3), I can do it without seriously hurting their SPD. It also helps that they start at a higher level and with better bases than he does (and in Jill's case flies), and that they too can tank everything that needs to be tanked in part 3 while gaining more levels than Aran could dream of.

And if you actually invest a more than 2, when he's a sentinel he'll be untouchable, especially if you abuse his excellent thunder affinity for support. He's really not as bad as some like to think of him. I just tried him for the heck of it since hard mode is awful with only nolan and sothe to reliably take hits (volug actually can be owned by fire mages there and his dodge is bad) and I was surprised by the results. Mine has capped everything but mag and luck and I didn't pay particularly special attention to him.

Volug? He starts with absolutely overkill HP to go along with his good base Defense and great base 26 ATK/19 AS. Yes, Fire Mages are quite dangerous for him, but it's a good thing they aren't all that common, and for part 3, you can finally remove the chain around his neck (Wildheart); now he doubles everything under the sun for part 3 and is only 3RKO'd by Tigers in 3-6; 26 AS, additionally, is enough to double the loladins in 4-P. This doesn't even consider how Volug has been blowing Aran out of the galaxy for all of their previous shared chapters. Regular Jill needs only a Robe, Drop and Forge (not a huge issue, you have more than enough money for a Knife forge and 2 Axe forges at this point) to get going, and for part 3, she can take Paragon, fly, take just as much flak as you can expose her to, and come out 20/15 at chapter's end.

And because I think you've never heard this before, Personal Experience Means Nothing. For your absolutely epic Aran, I could have an Aran with 12 AS at 20/3 coming into Part 3.

Edited December 28, 2011 by Black★Rock Shooter

[Kirisoul]

He has base 20 SPD and a 30% growth. He's not getting to 24 SPD reasonably without a Wing, give me a break.

30% nets him about 1 point every three levels, and he has 9 to go, so 23 would be his average, so already 1 point from the wing goes to waste. This is however, assuming the worst, that he gains a point after those 3 levels. It's perfectly possible for him to gain one on the first level or the 2nd one. Example: gains one on lv. 12, to 21, now he has 8 levels to gain 3, which is very possible. If this happens once in the three 3 level cycles, then he will probably reach 24. So unless you assume you will be unlucky, the wing is at least better off going to Titania, who can then cap spd quickly and use bexp.

...no. Nephenee with a STR and SPD transfer doubles everything in her joining chapter, ORKOs all but 5 enemies (boss included), and those 5 enemies left, she 2RKOs. Enemy density isn't high enough in 2-1 to be a problem for her; now that she pwns the face off of everything at one-range in her joining chapter (and even for much of 2-2), she at worst has to move to the next group of enemies, pop a Vulnerary, and sit back and watch the enemies suicide into her. Seriously, here is the HM enemy stats topic. Do tell me what 33 ATK/21 AS can't 1-2RKO in 2-1. Of course, even with normal Nephenee, she still needs some favoritism in order to get ready for part 3, but it's not babying (she's not getting O-2RKO'd by anything, much unlike Aran who gets 2RKO'd by the whole map just one chapter after he joins, and she generally 2-3RKOs in her joining chapter until you can ferry her a Steel Lance in 2-2).

I was talking about her joining in pt 3, how can she be in the mid-teens at 2-1? But yeah, she is pretty awesome in 2-1, certainly made my run easier, especially since Brom is so slow. Bonuses should also be a sidenote, since technically she doesn't start with them regularly.

"Once he grows." Giving a Speedwing to Aran still has a significant opportunity cost attached to it; it's going to a recipient who needs it to stop getting doubled instead of a recipient who uses it to double and ORKO instead. And here, we use averages; at 20/1 (assuming you get him there), Aran averages 15.55 SPD (hell if you want to play the "he can hit 17 or so SPD" game, I can just as easily say "He can only have 14 AS at 20/1, get doubled by a Tiger, then good fucking game). He's literally at an arms race to not get doubled for much of the part, and as early as 1-5, 15 AS Myrmidons can double and 4HKO--2RKO--him, for example (without the 1-4 Seraph Robe). Do bear in mind that the Speedwing doesn't come until the tail end of 1-E.

Thing is, I can't even pump any BEXP into Aran for much of part 1 without seriously screwing his SPD, and in part 1, when I need to pump BEXP into Jill and Nolan to keep them up to par (and get them ready for part 3), I can do it without seriously hurting their SPD. It also helps that they start at a higher level and with better bases than he does (and in Jill's case flies), and that they too can tank everything that needs to be tanked in part 3 while gaining more levels than Aran could dream of.

Alright, I won't assume things then, let's just say 16 spd. That's still decent enough to avoid being doubled, and that arms race won't exist if you give him a bit of bexp (no speedwing is fine), which is significantly easier as a halberdier since he caps str def and skl very early (around lv. 7-8). Jill Tanks? Not from my experience, unless you baby her or give her a shield... Aran on the other hand, even with no special investment can take a hit and dish a strong one back out. And he doesn't suck when you level him. That's more than you can say for most of the dawn brigade (except Nolan who is awesome.)

Volug? He starts with absolutely overkill HP to go along with his good base Defense and great base 26 ATK/19 AS. Yes, Fire Mages are quite dangerous for him, but it's a good thing they aren't all that common, and for part 3, you can finally remove the chain around his neck (Wildheart); now he doubles everything under the sun for part 3 and is only 3RKO'd by Tigers in 3-6; 26 AS, additionally, is enough to double the loladins in 4-P. This doesn't even consider how Volug has been blowing Aran out of the galaxy for all of their previous shared chapters. Regular Jill needs only a Robe, Drop and Forge (not a huge issue, you have more than enough money for a Knife forge and 2 Axe forges at this point) to get going, and for part 3, she can take Paragon, fly, take just as much flak as you can expose her to, and come out 20/15 at chapter's end.

And because I think you've never heard this before, Personal Experience Means Nothing. For your absolutely epic Aran, I could have an Aran with 12 AS at 20/3 coming into Part 3.

In part 1 he actually will get hit fairly often in hard mode, making him unreliable because he sure isn't a general and "good defense" doesn't quite cut it when you're getting hit 70% of the time. He needs constant healing, not to mention he's an exp hog if you actually use him in pt. 1. Of course, the resolve beastfoe tactic in 3-6 is still viable. Robe should go to micaiah imo, but I guess if you beef Jill up that much she's great. I usually only use her if I had good transfers, but I guess if you like her go ahead.

My "epic" Aran was made with one speedwing and 3 or four levels or bonus experience... Doesn't seem like much of an investment compared to an energy drop, a seraph robe, and custom weapons. Anyway, I never meant to say Aran is better than Nephenee, just that he isn't bad, and if you get lucky with his speed (or give him a wing) he can come out awesome. As the original post said "I bet no one would come to DEFEND him" I'm not claiming he's superior in any way, just defending him. I hope I didn't offend, I also do like using Jill and Nephenee by the way. This is getting out of hand, so I don't want to argue anymore, let's get back on topic...

You could try an all female run, or a Ike solo challenge, that's always fun.