Banzai's Archetypes

[General Banzai]

Dagda is not a leader of a group of mercenaries. In fact, he doesn't lead anything, even the Fiana Militia is commanded by Eyvel.

He's the leader of the Purple Mountain Bandits, although they've been (somewhat) reformed from banditry thanks to Evayle.

Zealot is also pretty clearly in it for the money. He's not a jovial, fatherly type either, and isn't hypermasculine, either. And he does have a pairing, and his A support with Yuno clearly explains that he would like nothing more than to spend the rest of his life with her. If Zealot doesn't spend a lot of time with Yuno, that's because he's trying to earn money for her. He also doesn't have an unsavoury past.

He's fatherly in his dealings with his men, especially Noah. Zealot's A support with Juno is him saying that he has to leave her and his child to make money. In fact he never says anything at all even hinting that he would "like nothing more than to spend the rest of his life with her."

Yuno: You're coming back to Edessa once the war ends, aren't you?

Zealot: Of course.

Yuno: Will you always stay with us after that?

Zealot: Probably not... I'll have to lead the mercenary knights around looking for work as usual. We can't support ourselves otherwise.

Yuno: But we've cultivated most of Ilia's lands now. If we put our best efforts in, we could produce enough food...

Zealot: But that wouldn't happen overnight.

Yuno: Well, yes, but...

Zealot: Besides, we wouldn't be guaranteed a good harvest every year. Where would the money for our food come from if the crops were to fail? How would we survive the winter if we were not prepared for a failure?

Yuno: ......

Zealot: I must lead the mercenary knights and collect money until we are able to support ourselves even in times when the crops do fail. I'll leave Edessa to you, so you should do your best to cultivate the land.

Yuno: Yes...

Zealot: But I have faith that there will come a time when we will have good harvests in Ilia as well.

Yuno: Yes, I have faith, too. I know that there will come a time when we will always be together as a family...

This is the entirety of their A support. Juno says that she would like them to be together as a family, but notice how we never see Zealot's response to that. The conversation ends before he can even say so much as "Yes, I agree." The most Zealot says to indicate your claim is his statement that there will come a time when there will be good harvests in Ilia--but once again, this is a detached, roundabout statement. It's talking about Ilia, Ilia, Ilia, never Juno or family. He mentions his mercenary knights more than his newborn daughter. Every time he uses "we" it potentially refers to something other than "you and I". "I must lead the mercenary knights... we can't support ourselves otherwise. We will have good harvests in Ilia..." Zealot's "we" is a we of collectivity, of Ilia itself--while Juno speaks of a more intimate "we", that of specifically Juno and Zealot. "We will always be together as a family... Will you alway stay with us after that?" It's family with Juno, the same way it's Ilia with Zealot--Ilia and his mercenary knights. Juno is Zealot's past, the past that he is trying to run away from. Will he stay with us after that? No, says Zealot. In his support with Noah he says:

Zealot: Neither of us will be able to meet our deaths peacefully in bed.

Zealot KNOWS that he will never "stay with Juno forever". He knows that his end will not be in his home, of peaceful causes--but violently, on the battlefield. He is aware of this and accepts it and does not think otherwise. The whole conversation is about letters sent to loved ones upon Zealot and Noah's potential deaths, and Zealot doesn't ONCE mention his family.

And look at Zealot's support with Tate:

Zealot: ...I have to thank you for helping us with the wedding. You set up the place and cooked for us... Oh, and Yuno was very pleased with the wedding gift you and Thany sent us.

Thito: Really...? I actually didn't want to send it... But Thany won't listen once she's made up her mind.

Zealot: Hahaha... That was an interesting gift, though. But... I have to apologize to Yuno about that wedding. If only I had more... If only our nation were wealthier, I could have given her a more proper and elegant wedding...

Thito: I doubt Yuno feels that way at all. I'm very grateful to you, General Zealot. Your wedding... I had never seen Yuno with such a happy face before. I want to thank you for what you've done for her.

The wedding is described by Zealot as something to make Juno happy; he never so much as mentions whether or not the wedding made him happy. In fact, he specifically shies away from any references to his own feelings towards the wedding, simply that it was not proper and elegant enough. He talks about a wedding as a gift, not as a unification of two people through love.

And look at Zealot's support with Thany:

Thany: Zealot!

Zealot: ...You won't let me go, will you?

Thany: But I'm family to you. I want to know about my relatives...

Zealot: Hm... All right, I suppose. ...We first met in battle in Etruria. Yuno's pegasus squad was hired by our enemy side.

Thany: Whoa...

Zealot: I attempted to settle things peacefully through discussion. Yuno was a beautiful and caring woman, so things went well. And then, things just progressed after that.

Thany: What were your proposal words?

Zealot: Y-You want me to tell you that much?

Thany: Yes. I'm your family...aren't I?

Zealot: Er...

Thany: Did you propose first? Or was it Yuno?

Zealot: Well...

Thany: I'm glad you turned out to be a good person. You and Yuno really looked perfect together.

Zealot: Thank you. I'm relieved that you didn't start hating me.

Thany: Why would I hate you? You strong, you're kind... And besides, you're the man Yuno fell in love with.

Zealot: By the way... What about you? Do you have someone in mind?

Thany: Sorry, that's a secret!

Zealot: W-What? After making me confess that much, you're not telling me?

Thany: We're family. Family members have to have some secrets!

Zealot: W-Wait, Thany...

Thany: See ya!

Where do Zealot on Juno meet? Of course, the battlefield. For Zealot, everything begins and ends on the battlefield. He forms relationships with comrades-in-arms, rather than friends in peace. That Juno was on the OPPOSITE side as Zealot when they first met only speaks more about their relationship. And in the next support, what does Thany say? Zealot is the man that Juno fell in love with--not the other way around.

Where you are right is in his joviality; he is definitely a macabre figure.

Raven doesn't fit anything. He's not a mercenary, not interested in serving employers of "good character", doesn't lead anything, isn't jovial or fatherly. He does have a relationship with a feminine woman that goes nowhere: but she's his sister. Nor is he hypermasculine: he's actually rather bishonen if anything. I guess he has the unsavoury past.

Already noted all this in the post

Gerik isn't hired by the main character (Innes hires him), nor is his past "unsavoury" since he's always been a mercenary.

Didn't say "main character", I said a "lordly character". Innes fits that. Otherwise, how would Ike be the Ogma? He hires himself. I'll continue with a response to the rest of your point on Gerik (I find it interesting, would like to pursue it more), but suddenly I am surrounded by people making annoying noises and I can no longer focus.

However this is good, really good. This is the kind of stuff I want to see

Edited March 3, 2012 by General Banzai

[Anouleth]

Dieck is a rough sort of Fatherly. He mostly scolds Thany/Ward for being reckless, then when they curb their attitude he praises them. He also does have Loyalty to Roy's cause through his A Support with Lot

Why don't you read? Banzai said that an Ogma picks their employer based on character, not money. While Dieck does eventuall develop respect for Roy, that's well after he begins working for him. Dieck is happy to fight for Roy even before he even meets him, and he fought for an evil employer at least once in the past.

Dieck to me always came off as someone who wasn't sure if he could trust attachment, even if he was considerably nicer than say Rutgar. He starts off Warning Thany/Ward/Klein not to do reckless things, but every time someone gets close he pushes them away (Thany, The Rigleys)

Dieck isn't really fatherly. He's more like an older brother. He's certainly not jovial.

Indeed, this personality (not trusting others) seems to be at odds with the personalities of other supposed "Ogmas". Zealot does not act this way. Ike and Greil do not act this way. Dagda does not act this way.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Anouleth

[General Banzai]

Why don't you read? Banzai said that an Ogma picks their employer based on character, not money. While Dieck does eventuall develop respect for Roy, that's well after he begins working for him. Dieck is happy to fight for Roy even before he even meets him, and he fought for an evil employer at least once in the past.

Dieck isn't really fatherly. He's more like an older brother. He's certainly not jovial.

Indeed, this personality (not trusting others) seems to be at odds with the personalities of other supposed "Ogmas". Zealot does not act this way. Ike and Greil do not act this way. Dagda does not act this way.

Ah, then perhaps I have to reword my initial definition! Ike isn't exactly fatherly either--but brotherly is a good word to describe his position. Meanwhile, though, we have Ogmas who ARE fatherly, like Greil and Dagda. It's a subtle difference in the type of relationship but a difference nonetheless. And perhaps I must also look more at my description of personality, especially the word "jovial".

[Anouleth]

He's the leader of the Purple Mountain Bandits, although they've been (somewhat) reformed from banditry thanks to Evayle.

Bandits aren't really mercenaries.

He's fatherly in his dealings with his men, especially Noah. Zealot's A support with Juno is him saying that he has to leave her and his child to make money.

And they also say that they hope that one day, he will be able to return and live in Edessa beside her.

In fact he never says anything at all even hinting that he would "like nothing more than to spend the rest of his life with her."

How about the bit where he's married to her? You don't marry someone when you don't love them.

This is the entirety of their A support. Juno says that she would like them to be together as a family, but notice how we never see Zealot's response to that. The conversation ends before he can even say so much as "Yes, I agree."

It's heavily implied that he does agree with her. Why the hell did he marry her if he didn't want to live with her?

The most Zealot says to indicate your claim is his statement that there will come a time when there will be good harvests in Ilia--but once again, this is a detached, roundabout statement. It's talking about Ilia, Ilia, Ilia, never Juno or family. He mentions his mercenary knights more than his newborn daughter.

So does Yuno. What's your point?

Zealot KNOWS that he will never "stay with Juno forever". He knows that his end will not be in his home, of peaceful causes--but violently, on the battlefield. He is aware of this and accepts it and does not think otherwise. The whole conversation is about letters sent to loved ones upon Zealot and Noah's potential deaths, and Zealot doesn't ONCE mention his family.

I think you are reading waaaay too much into this. The obvious part is that Zealot can't talk about his plans with Yuno with other characters since all characters in FE6 can die except for Roy. It would be nonsensical given that Zealot doesn't necessarily even have a family for him to talk about his family.

The wedding is described by Zealot as something to make Juno happy; he never so much as mentions whether or not the wedding made him happy. In fact, he specifically shies away from any references to his own feelings towards the wedding, simply that it was not proper and elegant enough. He talks about a wedding as a gift, not as a unification of two people through love.

Again, you are reading too much into it. If anything, I get the impression that Zealot is angry with himself for not giving Yuno the wedding she feels she deserves. And weddings are usually more to please the bride than the husband anyway.

Where do Zealot on Juno meet? Of course, the battlefield. For Zealot, everything begins and ends on the battlefield. He forms relationships with comrades-in-arms, rather than friends in peace. That Juno was on the OPPOSITE side as Zealot when they first met only speaks more about their relationship. And in the next support, what does Thany say? Zealot is the man that Juno fell in love with--not the other way around.

So you're saying that Zealot doesn't love Yuno?

I think you are reading waaay too much into this. Just because Zealot never actually directly says that he loves Yuno doesn't mean he doesn't. Some men have difficulty articulating their feelings in that way. Clearly, Zealot has a similar problem to Treck and Noah in that he can't express his feelings, and that he finds it easier to express his love through supporting his wife financially. But that doesn't mean he's not in love with her.

Didn't say "main character", I said a "lordly character". Innes fits that.

Who else would hire mercenaries? It seems almost redundant to specify that every Ogma is hired by a "lordly" character, since in the course of Fire Emblem practically every mercenary is hired by some kind of lord or king. Is Eubans an Ogma by virtue of being hired by Marquess Darin? How about Schaeffer, hired by King Ashnard? I suppose that Caesar and Radd are hired by Port Warren, but it might have a lord figure in charge.

Otherwise, how would Ike be the Ogma? He hires himself.

He's hired by the extremely noble Elincia initially, and then hired by the even more noble Sanaki, and in FE10 he's then hired by the downright kingly Caineghis. Ike never hires himself.

I'll continue with a response to the rest of your point on Gerik (I find it interesting, would like to pursue it more),

I would like to see how you can construe their interaction as anything other than romantic.

[Onmi]

Again, you are reading too much into it. If anything, I get the impression that Zealot is angry with himself for not giving Yuno the wedding she feels she deserves. And weddings are usually more to please the bride than the husband anyway.

Confirmation for you from the Thite support

A Support

Zealot: ...I have to thank you for helping us with the wedding. You set up the place and cooked for us... Oh, and Yuno was very pleased with the wedding gift you and Thany sent us.

Thito: Really...? I actually didn't want to send it... But Thany won't listen once she's made up her mind.

Zealot: Hahaha... That was an interesting gift, though. But... I have to apologize to Yuno about that wedding. If only I had more... If only our nation were wealthier, I could have given her a more proper and elegant wedding...

Thito: I doubt Yuno feels that way at all. I'm very grateful to you, General Zealot. Your wedding... I had never seen Yuno with such a happy face before. I want to thank you for what you've done for her.

Also

B Support

Zealot: I was wondering... Yuno's...your parents... What were they like?

Thito: Haven't you heard from Yuno?

Zealot: No. All I know is that they were soldiers.

Thito: Yes, our mother was a Pegasus Knight. Our parents were killed together on the same battlefield when we were still young.

Zealot: ......

Thito: We had no other relatives to depend on... Yuno became our mother, when she was only a teenager...

Zealot: I see.

Thito: While an ordinary girl of her age would be concerning herself with romance, Yuno had to be our mother. But she never complained... She always looked after us with a smile on her face. That's why... That's why I always wanted Yuno to find happiness.

C Support

Thito: General Zealot, I'm sure you know already, but my mission has been accomplished. Still, I wish to remain in this army.

Zealot: All right. You know, fate can work in strange ways. We were hired by the Lycia Alliance Army, and you were hired by the Etrurian Army... I never would have thought that we would meet.

Thito: Yes. Although Etruria didn't seem to view us very highly, General Klein was caring.

Zealot: I see... Yuno was pretty worried about you and Thany. Knowing you, I would think you'd be all right. But you know Yuno, she's a worrier.

Thito: Yes, I understand. Our sister was often too soft on Thany and me. The day we left was a hectic one indeed. Yuno was constantly fretting over us, worrying about our meals, our clothes...

Zealot: Haha, that's Yuno.

For a woman he supposedly doesn't love or care about her, he sure talks about her with warmth, and beats himself up over not being able to provide for her.

The entire Ilian Merc knight supports are about how they handle the mercenary life, Noah is a fatalist, doesn't let himself form attachments to people, but finds himself seeing Zealot as a father and falling in love with Fir. Treck just takes the day by day AS the day by day, but even he dreams of a more peaceful time. Zealot beats himself up over not being able to provide for his family and country, not being able to give Juno the elegant wedding he wanted for her. Yes he's tied to the battlefield, but that's not Zealot, that's ILIA.

Zealot is the man who becomes the first king of Ilia for crying out loud, he clearly got that role because he loved his country, and did his very best for it.

Zealot - Leader of Knights

Zealot returned to Ilia, where he worked to rebuild the ruined land. He eventually united the Knights' Union of Ilia into the Kingdom of Ilia, and he left his name in history as the nation's first king.

Yuno - Legendary Flightleader

After returning to Edessa, Yuno worked to reunite the divided Pegasus Knights of Ilia. Later, she was asked to lead the newly united Pegasus Knights, but she refused and led the rest of her life happily with Zealot. After her death, she was named the "Grand Flightleader" and is remembered to this day.

There it is, plain as day in Juno's ending, she lived happily with Zealot wait what happens to her ending if he's dead I'm fairly certain this can not be argued with. he loves his wife, he loves his nation.

[Helios]

Gerik isn't hired by the main character (Innes hires him), nor is his past "unsavoury" since he's always been a mercenary. Plus, you must be nuts if you think that his relationship with Tethys isn't explicitly romantic:

Tethys: Good. You know, Chief, I'm really happy.

Gerik: Yeah, me, too. I've got a life I enjoy and good companions. All that and a wonderful woman to love. Everyone should be so lucky.

Tethys: Oh! Chief!

Gerik: Whoa! ... Hey now... This is a battlefield. This isn't the place for that...

Tethys: No one's looking...

Not only does Gerik directly say he loves Tethys, Tethys instantly responds with a mid-battle blowjob.

Damn this made me lol so hard.

I was going to post something about the whole "homoerotic/homosexual" assumption, but I think a few people here took care of that fairly well. All in all though, not too bad of a list of archetypes Banzai :)

[Anouleth]

Damn this made me lol so hard.

I was going to post something about the whole "homoerotic/homosexual" assumption, but I think a few people here took care of that fairly well. All in all though, not too bad of a list of archetypes Banzai :)

I still think his description of Cain/Abel is very flawed, given that for every pair that seems to fit, there's another that doesn't. And what's with the mention of Abel as usually being an outsider? That was only ever true for Lance.

[General Banzai]

I still think his description of Cain/Abel is very flawed, given that for every pair that seems to fit, there's another that doesn't. And what's with the mention of Abel as usually being an outsider? That was only ever true for Lance.

Oscar, Alva... Sain even is only the sub-commander, while Kent himself is the true commander.

There it is, plain as day in Juno's ending, she lived happily with Zealot wait what happens to her ending if he's dead I'm fairly certain this can not be argued with. he loves his wife, he loves his nation.

Cannot be argued with? You are a long way from Kansas.

Note how it is JUNO who spends the rest of HER life with Zealot. Zealot's ending doesn't even mention Juno. Not once. It mentions his country, not his wife, not his child. Again we have another instance where Juno's happiness with Zealot does not equate to Zealot's happiness with Juno. The marriage, I again point to--it was all to make Juno happy, but Zealot's feelings towards the marriage itself are irrelevant outside of his ability to provide it.

Zealot does not speak of Juno with love and fondness. He speaks of the marriage as a gift, their meeting as a battlefield excursion. There is no domesticity with Zealot. None whatsoever.

You're right to contest my claims, but you cannot say that your claims are inarguable. Because I'm willing to argue them.

Edited March 4, 2012 by General Banzai

[Onmi]

Oscar, Alva... Sain even is only the sub-commander, while Kent himself is the true commander.

Cannot be argued with? You are a long way from Kansas.

Note how it is JUNO who spends the rest of HER life with Zealot. Zealot's ending doesn't even mention Juno. Not once. It mentions his country, not his wife, not his child. Again we have another instance where Juno's happiness with Zealot does not equate to Zealot's happiness with Juno. The marriage, I again point to--it was all to make Juno happy, but Zealot's feelings towards the marriage itself are irrelevant outside of his ability to provide it.

Zealot does not speak of Juno with love and fondness. He speaks of the marriage as a gift, their meeting as a battlefield excursion. There is no domesticity with Zealot. None whatsoever.

You're right to contest my claims, but you cannot say that your claims are inarguable. Because I'm willing to argue them.

Except you're ignoring what I posted. He does not refer to the marriage as a gift, he refers to an actual PHYSICAL GIFT THAT THANY AND THITE GOT FOR HIM. And secondly, say you're right, that he has no attachment to Juno, Why marry her? Their not nobles, it's not an arranged marriage, Zealot oft mentions that Ilians killing one another is the norm, so what do you think he married for? Appearances? why would he need to keep up appearances? So you're essentially saying he Married, slept with, had a child with, and remained married to, a woman he does not love.

Just to make someone happy? "hmm I'm going to marry someone to give them happiness, despite it not being what I want. This is also why I'm interested in her family, because I don't love her at all, and also why I stick with the marriage, because I don't love her."

Dear god, do you know how counter productive it would be for a mercenary constantly selling their life to marry someone for their happiness? And you keep trying to take them as separate, but they aren't separate at all. They are a married couple. Do you have any idea what that is like? any at all? let me clear this up for you. If one is unhappy, both are unhappy. If Zealot was cold, detached, and didn't show her love, how the flying fuck would she have lived out the rest of her life in happiness as his wife, which is what her ending states.

Zealot only mentions going out with the mercenary knights because A. he's their leader and B. He's a patriot. Which really separates him from the Ogma archetype anyway. Zealot doesn't do what he does for the Knights or for himself. He does it for Ilia, he's a patriot who will continue to sell his sword so long as it means providing for the nation he loves. He doesn't care about Roy's goals outside of his Ilian loyalty (unlike Dieck, Zealot never brings up trusting or believing in Roy)

Treck: ...Zzz...

Zealot: Treck...

Treck: ...Zzz...

Zealot: ......

Treck: Owww!? Uh... General Zealot? Yawn... Good morning, sir.

Zealot: Treck... There are rumors going around in the army about you. They say that the Ilian knight Treck is swinging his sword in his sleep!

Treck: I have yet to accomplish that, sir. But...that does seem like fun.

Zealot: ...... Treck, you've got talent. Why don't you do your job properly?

Treck: Well...

Zealot: We are members of the proud Ilian Mercenary Knights. This is a battle that will determine the world's fate... And to us, that isn't all. The reputation of the Ilian Mercenary Knights will be determined by our actions and how we fight in this battle. That shall have a great impact on the future of Ilia, and thus...

Treck: ...Zzz...

This is the reason Zealot does what he does.

Again, the Thite supports have Zealot refer to Juno with familiarity

Zealot: I see... Yuno was pretty worried about you and Thany. Knowing you, I would think you'd be all right. But you know Yuno, she's a worrier.

Thito: Yes, I understand. Our sister was often too soft on Thany and me. The day we left was a hectic one indeed. Yuno was constantly fretting over us, worrying about our meals, our clothes...

Zealot: Haha, that's Yuno.

Zealot: Hahaha... That was an interesting gift, though. But... I have to apologize to Yuno about that wedding. If only I had more... If only our nation were wealthier, I could have given her a more proper and elegant wedding...

Thito: I doubt Yuno feels that way at all. I'm very grateful to you, General Zealot. Your wedding... I had never seen Yuno with such a happy face before. I want to thank you for what you've done for her.

Again, if Zealot doesn't love her WHY DID HE MARRY HER?!

[General Banzai]

Indeed, why did he marry her, since he doesn't love her? An insight into his character, perhaps.

Zealot's "Haha, that's Juno" line has been particularly troubling for me, as it is the only time he ever does refer to her with any sense of familiarity. Also, about him referring to the physical gift that Tate and Thany got him. That's true, he does say that, but that doesn't mean he doesn't also refer to the wedding as a gift he game to Juno. He says it even in the quote you posted in your last post.

Zealot: Hahaha... That was an interesting gift, though. But... I have to apologize to Yuno about that wedding. If only I had more... If only our nation were wealthier, I could have given her a more proper and elegant wedding...

Gift, see?

[Sunwoo]

Indeed, why did he marry her, since he doesn't love her? An insight into his character, perhaps.

Zealot's "Haha, that's Juno" line has been particularly troubling for me, as it is the only time he ever does refer to her with any sense of familiarity. Also, about him referring to the physical gift that Tate and Thany got him. That's true, he does say that, but that doesn't mean he doesn't also refer to the wedding as a gift he game to Juno. He says it even in the quote you posted in your last post.

Zealot: Hahaha... That was an interesting gift, though. But... I have to apologize to Yuno about that wedding. If only I had more... If only our nation were wealthier, I could have given her a more proper and elegant wedding...

Gift, see?

This part is not really making sense to me, Banzai. I believe someone else mentioned that weddings are mostly to please the wife more so than the husband. Technically, don't all husbands want to "give" their wives an elegant wedding.

[Aethereal]

Indeed, why did he marry her, since he doesn't love her? An insight into his character, perhaps.

I don't see indications that Zealot doesn't love Juno. He clearly wants to make her happy, and unless there's some other reason for them to get married, I can only imagine that he loves her. I get that he's not incredibly open about his feelings for her, but being distant/guarded doesn't imply a lack of love.

[Lord Raven]

is banzai seriously trying to somehow twist Zealot into being slightly gay/"homosocial" or am I missing something... and is he doing it by proving that he's in a loveless marriage he doesn't care about

[Onmi]

No, I don't see. I don't see because Zealot always assumes the worst, E.G. He assume Thany would hate his guts

Thany: I'm glad you turned out to be a good person. You and Yuno really looked perfect together.

Zealot: Thank you. I'm relieved that you didn't start hating me.

Thany: Why would I hate you? You strong, you're kind... And besides, you're the man Yuno fell in love with.

He assumed that Thany would hate him for marrying Juno. Why would he assume that? There are two equally valid reasons, because it could be seen as taking her big sister and mother figure away from her, or it could be seen as Zealot berating himself. He's not rich so she can't live in luxury, he's always out all the time making ends meet for Ilia as a whole. He's just as wholly devoted to his country as he is to his wife (In fact I would say his country moreso, I think Zealot needs to be reclassed simply because his patriotism is a major part of his character)

He does actually bring up their daughter

C Support

Zealot: Yuno, um...

Yuno: Yes? What is it, Zealot?

Zealot: Our daughter... Is she all right?

Yuno: Yes, I'm sure she is. I've entrusted her to a good friend.

Zealot: Oh...

Yuno: Is something wrong?

Zealot: No, it's just... What is she like? Does she look like you or me?

Yuno: Oh, you haven't seen her yet, have you.

Zealot: No. I've always been out working.

Yuno: We shall go pick her up once the war ends.

Zealot: Yes...we shall.

He starts the conversation here, he is genuinely interested in the daughter he never gets to see. Juno senses something is wrong, and Zealot pretty much says "I know nothing about my own daughter" which again fits in with the idea that he feels inadequate as a husband and father.

B Support

Zealot: Yuno, I was thinking...

Yuno: Yes?

Zealot: I don't think it's a good idea to leave a newborn baby to someone else. You should go back home and take care of her...

Yuno: It's all right. I've entrusted her to a very good friend of mine.

Zealot: But you're her mother.

Yuno: I'm fighting because I'm her mother. I want to raise her in a peaceful time without war.

Zealot: But...

Yuno: I might have told you this before, but it would be impossible to find a completely safe place until we end this war.

Zealot: Well, that's true...

Yuno: In that case, let's focus on ending the war. All right, Zealot?

Zealot: Hm...

Here we learn a little bit more about Zealot, he doesn't think his daughter should have no parents. Now on it's own you could take this to mean, he really doesn't want Juno around while leaving their daughter alone but, back to Thite for a second

B Support

Zealot: I was wondering... Yuno's...your parents... What were they like?

Thito: Haven't you heard from Yuno?

Zealot: No. All I know is that they were soldiers.

Thito: Yes, our mother was a Pegasus Knight. Our parents were killed together on the same battlefield when we were still young.

Zealot: ......

Thito: We had no other relatives to depend on... Yuno became our mother, when she was only a teenager...

Zealot: I see.

Thito: While an ordinary girl of her age would be concerning herself with romance, Yuno had to be our mother. But she never complained... She always looked after us with a smile on her face. That's why... That's why I always wanted Yuno to find happiness.

Thite's told Zealot that Juno lost both her parents, meaning she had to raise her sisters as their mother. Now, I of course operate under the assumption that Supports like this tend to canonically happen so long as they don't contradict other supports. But here we have Zealot learning what happened, realizing the same possibility exists for him, and asking Juno to go back to their daughter. Not because he feels indifferent to her, but because he doesn't want what happened to Juno to happen to his own kid.

If I had to put Zealot in an Archetype, I would say he's more of a Harken character type. Someone who's fiercely patriotic and loyal, but that's also gotten in the way of their personal feelings. And even that's not 100% accurate

[-Cynthia-]

Zealot even suggests Noah get a girlfriend at one point- why would he do this if Zealot himself were stuck in a loveless marriage?

There really seems to be no incentive for Zealot to marry Juno either than A. Because he loves her or B. To make her happy...which is pretty much the same thing as A. Unless Juno were somehow able to guilt trip him into marrying her or something, but Zealot never shows any sign of regret at actually marrying Juno, just that he is unable to provide for her.

As for Juno not being in Zealot's ending this probably comes from gameplay more than anything else- she doesn't ever show up ingame if we go Sacae route. Maybe she dies if you go Sacae, maybe the developers felt that mentioning a non-introduced character would be odd, but given the general laziness of the endings (lack of paired endings for anyone but Roy for instance) Zealot's ending is likely just meant to be uniform, not indicative of his lovelesness for Juno.

[Onmi]

Zealot even suggests Noah get a girlfriend at one point- why would he do this if Zealot himself were stuck in a loveless marriage?

There really seems to be no incentive for Zealot to marry Juno either than A. Because he loves her or B. To make her happy...which is pretty much the same thing as A. Unless Juno were somehow able to guilt trip him into marrying her or something, but Zealot never shows any sign of regret at actually marrying Juno, just that he is unable to provide for her.

As for Juno not being in Zealot's ending this probably comes from gameplay more than anything else- she doesn't ever show up ingame if we go Sacae route. Maybe she dies if you go Sacae, maybe the developers felt that mentioning a non-introduced character would be odd, but given the general laziness of the endings (lack of paired endings for anyone but Roy for instance) Zealot's ending is likely just meant to be uniform, not indicative of his lovelesness for Juno.

In perfect example mode

A Support

Fir: !

Noah: Wait, Fir! Don't go. I need to talk to you.

Fir: I-I... I swore to myself that I would live by the sword. But... I find my mind wandering, and I'm always thinking about you!

Noah: Fir...

Fir: G-Goodbye!

*Fir tries to leave*

Noah: Fir!

Fir: Wha-...

Noah: Do you remember the first time we met?

Fir: Yes...

Noah: Ever since then, I've wanted to tell you something. But I couldn't muster up the guts to do so. Even after we said goodbye to each other, I've been regretting that I didn't tell you how I felt.

Fir: ......

Noah: I honestly thought it was a miracle when we met again on that island. And... Although I've still been keeping it in until now, I won't hesitate any more. I have to tell you.

Fir: S-Sir Noah...

Noah: Fir, I... I love you.

Noah - Vagrant Knight

Wanting to test his ability, Noah left Zealot's group and traveled the world as a lone mercenary knight. Although several nations offered him positions in their militaries, he turned them all down. Many people have been inspired by his strength to live life by just being himself...

Fir - Heir to the Sword Saint

Fir set out again to travel around the world in training. Her name eventually spread throughout the continent as the next Sword Saint, and her legends were to be told for centuries to come.

This is ALWAYS their endings. despite the fact that they are very clearly in love with each other by A Support, this is just a fault of FE6

[Dark Sage]

Apparently Zealot needs to say "LOL I love my wife and want to have buttsex with her and I love my child" every two seconds for Banzai to accept that yes, Zealot loves his wife and child.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Dark Sage

[Narga_Rocks]

Apparently Zealot needs to say "LOL I love my wife and want to have buttsex with her and I love my child" every two seconds for Banzai to accept that yes, Zealot loves his wife and child.

I doubt that would work. If he said that, then wouldn't Banzai just be all the more convinced that Zealot is gay?

Edited March 4, 2012 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

zealot practicing contraception

cuz one child is already enough

also i thought my previous post was particularly clever and pertinent to the topic of homosexuality but someone in a position of power obv. disagrees

Edited March 4, 2012 by dondon151

[Dark Sage]

I doubt that would work. If he said that, then wouldn't Banzai just be all the more convinced that Zealot is gay?

Believe it or not it is possible for straight people to enjoy having buttsex.

[Onmi]

In an act I'm going to regret, I'm going to throw something for the Ike situation. Just an interesting Tidbit, I'm still not committing to any argument about Ike's sexuality (Personally I believe he's Asexual and just doesn't think about anything sexually) Someone said earlier on that Ike didn't have any connections to female characters, that's pretty blatantly wrong. In PoR Ike constantly refers to Elincia by title and never just as 'Elincia' when talking to her. This continues right up until their A support.

A Support

Elincia: ...

Ike: We finally reach the capital tomorrow.

Elincia: Yes...

Ike: How are you feeling about it?

Elincia: More than a little anxious... But... We've finally made it. I'm home. More than anything, I feel relief.

Ike: You've grown strong, Princess.

Elincia: That's only because I had such a great role model.

Ike: Hah! I think you meant to say bad role model, right? By the way, do you remember what you said to me on the southern sea?

Elincia: W-what did I say? Hopefully, it was nothing too embarassing.

Ike: You said, "Give them a sound thrashing!"

Elincia: Oh...er...that? That was...um... I was trying to fit in, my lord Ike. To be rough and capable like the rest of you.

Ike: You caught me off guard with that one.

Elincia: Hee hee! It brings back memories.

Elincia: When I fled the capital and was told about Crimea's defeat in Gallia... I prepared myself to live in crushing, colorless despair for the rest of my days. But when I look back, I can see there were some warm rays of hope...poking through.

Ike: You're right...

Elincia: Tomorrow, I will face King Daein and reclaim Crimea...or die in the attempt. It is the only thing on my mind.

Ike: You employed me as a mercenary. I'll give you your money's worth! ...No. It means more than that... To my last breath, I will do all that I can to ensure your dream...Elincia.

Elincia: Oh, Ike...

Now what does this mean? only what it says, that Ike has stopped seeing Elincia as 'Princess' he see's her as a person,as Elincia the woman not Elincia the princess. Does this mean he loves her? No, but it does imply that he's grown and looks at her as much more than his employer.

Now I'm going to direct people to Radiant Dawns death quotes. I love the Death Quotes in RD it's like someone accidentally allocated the support budget to the death quotes department

• In Part 3: Chapter 10 (as NPC)

Elincia: Sir Ike... Please... Look after Crimea.

Ike: Elincia! Open your eyes, Elincia!

(Elincia dies, Game over)

• In Part 4: Endgame

Elincia: Ugh...aaah... Sorry... I... I'm...

Ike: Elincia! You don't have to do this! Just get out of here!

Elincia: My noble Ike... All...your plans...

Ike: Don't speak. Leave it all to me. You use all your strength to make sure that you survive. Do it for the people of Crimea.

Elincia: All right, Sir Ike. ...I know you can do it. I'll be waiting.

(Elincia retreats)

---

The Soren quotes are all based around needing to keep him in the story even as he dies, so Ike always tells him that he needs him as a strategist. I'm not underminding his relationship with Soren, being the guys only friend and Soren being the one he trusts to lead the Greil Mercenaries along side him speaks a lot about their friendship. I just don't see anything particularly romantic or sexual in ANYTHING Ike says or does.

Like whenever Aimee hits on him, he's not disgusted or annoyed, he's just confused as to why, Greil apparently never gave him the talk. Again I'm not throwing in my hat anywhere, just saying that Ike does have a friendship relationship with a girl, otherwise he would keep referring to Elincia as 'Princess Elincia' like he used to

[BBM]

While Holyn isn't a leader of a mercenary group, he is a mercenary who originally fought for money and then decides to join Sigurd because he wants to be part of something real for a change instead of just fighting for money. Does this make him an Ogma? Or is he more of a Navarre? I don't really know the archetypes very well.

[Onmi]

While Holyn isn't a leader of a mercenary group, he is a mercenary who originally fought for money and then decides to join Sigurd because he wants to be part of something real for a change instead of just fighting for money. Does this make him an Ogma? Or is he more of a Navarre? I don't really know the archetypes very well.

None of FE4's characters are really Ogmas, Holyn's closest on account of being a Hero

[Othin]

While Holyn isn't a leader of a mercenary group, he is a mercenary who originally fought for money and then decides to join Sigurd because he wants to be part of something real for a change instead of just fighting for money. Does this make him an Ogma? Or is he more of a Navarre? I don't really know the archetypes very well.

Holyn really isn't anything. He's just a guy who happens to have a mercenary-style class.

[General Banzai]

Zealot: Yuno, I was thinking...

Yuno: Yes?

Zealot: I don't think it's a good idea to leave a newborn baby to someone else. You should go back home and take care of her...

Yuno: It's all right. I've entrusted her to a very good friend of mine.

Zealot: But you're her mother.

Yuno: I'm fighting because I'm her mother. I want to raise her in a peaceful time without war.

Zealot: But...

Yuno: I might have told you this before, but it would be impossible to find a completely safe place until we end this war.

Zealot: Well, that's true...

Yuno: In that case, let's focus on ending the war. All right, Zealot?

Zealot: Hm...

Glad somebody brought this up. Look how Zealot phrases everything. "You should go back home and take care of her..." "But you're her mother." You look at this and say "aw, he cares about his daughter" but look closer and really you see just how detached he is. He says someone should take care of a newborn--but not him, not the father, it's always you, you Juno, you mother, not me, not the man.

Zealot: Yuno, um...

Yuno: Yes? What is it, Zealot?

Zealot: Our daughter... Is she all right?

Yuno: Yes, I'm sure she is. I've entrusted her to a good friend.

Zealot: Oh...

Yuno: Is something wrong?

Zealot: No, it's just... What is she like? Does she look like you or me?

Yuno: Oh, you haven't seen her yet, have you.

Zealot: No. I've always been out working.

Yuno: We shall go pick her up once the war ends.

Zealot: Yes...we shall.

And look at how everything is being said here. "Oh, you haven't seen her yet, have you." Under what circumstances would someone be compelled to say that? Not only has Zealot not seen his own daughter, but Juno doesn't even know at first whether he has or not. That is how detached and transitory Zealot is in his family's life. Just someone drifting back in and out without explanation, unanchored by standard notions of time. And look how Zealot hesitates when he says "Yes... we shall." No enthusiasm whatsoever. I am again reminded of the end of A support--Juno says that they will live together as a family, and then what? Nothing. Zealot says nothing. The conversation ends. He can't even formulate a response to the prospect of living together as a family. For him no such life exists; could possibly exist. He will die on the battlefield, not in a peaceful bed. Note, of course, the symbolism behind the specific use of the word "bed," a word which brings to the fore images of sex and matrimony; the bed is a typical symbol of marriage. Yes, maybe he means it as a symbol of rest. But these alternative meanings are not to be ignored.

While Holyn isn't a leader of a mercenary group, he is a mercenary who originally fought for money and then decides to join Sigurd because he wants to be part of something real for a change instead of just fighting for money. Does this make him an Ogma? Or is he more of a Navarre? I don't really know the archetypes very well.

When I thought of the Ogma of FE4 my mind first jumped to Holyn. He fits some characteristics (former pitfighter, mysterious past), but mostly he's just nothing. I mean, I suppose I could put him on with a notation explaining which of the common archetypal elements he just doesn't conform to, not by any explicit contradiction but rather by simply barely existing. But I don't see the point.