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Banzai's Archetypes


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What kind of debate is this ? I thought this disscusion was about archetypes in all the fire emblem games . Not 7 fucking pages about if a single through away character has homo eroitc or homosocial tendencies. How come every literal debate ends up being completely about the home eroticism clearly demonstrated by this character or that character . My god i haven't read this much bullshit since ap English back in high school .

Good job, we haven't been talking about homoeroticism since six pages ago

Navarre never interacts with Lena in FE1/3, and he doesn't get any sort of support bonus from her either. He also doesn't seem to have any interest in salvation or redemption considering he goes right back to working with bandits after the first war. The one thing that really stands out about him is that he refuses to harm women or children.

It's probably about time I brought this up, but because of the lack of much hard text in FE1 I've looked at the OAV for more insight into the characters. Whether or not we want to consider that fair game for discussion is another matter. Anyways, for those unfamiliar with the OAV: In it, Navarre joins with the Soothsires once he sees that they have captured Lena, after being reluctant before. He aids Julian in letting Lena escape and he professes to Lena that his hands are so stained with blood that nothing can save him--although an ambiguous flashback indicates something about a woman in his past being cut down by soldiers.

Hmm, I would say that Karla acts as Karel's Lena. Their support seems indicate that she's the catalyst for Karel's change at least.

That's actually a good point. I guess I'm reluctant to say Karla is Karel's Lena though because he begins the support with a dogged determination to kill her. You do bring up another good point about Volke and I must admit he seems much stranger in connection to the others. But other than the desire to change, he fits the bill quite well. I'd be willing to tango if anyone wants to take up the Volke argument.

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It's probably about time I brought this up, but because of the lack of much hard text in FE1 I've looked at the OAV for more insight into the characters. Whether or not we want to consider that fair game for discussion is another matter. Anyways, for those unfamiliar with the OAV: In it, Navarre joins with the Soothsires once he sees that they have captured Lena, after being reluctant before. He aids Julian in letting Lena escape and he professes to Lena that his hands are so stained with blood that nothing can save him--although an ambiguous flashback indicates something about a woman in his past being cut down by soldiers.

Banzai. If you're analyzing the games, then stick to the games. Don't use the OAV to support your evidence, unless you're only going to look at the OVA. Perhaps Lena redeems Navarre in the OVA. Does she redeem him in the games? PICK ONE. STICK WITH IT. Lumping the game and the OAV makes your argument look a tad weak. Because the OAV wasn't ever completed. Because sometimes characters change slightly when you transfer them from one medium to another. Take Harry Potter for example. Movie Hermione is quite different from book Hermione, and I dislike movie Hermione while I am ambivalent on book Hermione. Don't use OAV Navarre if you're trying to argue that game Navarre fits the "Navarre" archetype. The fact that OAV Navarre is redeemed by OAV Lena has nothing to do with game Navarre.

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Banzai. If you're analyzing the games, then stick to the games. Don't use the OAV to support your evidence, unless you're only going to look at the OVA. Perhaps Lena redeems Navarre in the OVA. Does she redeem him in the games? PICK ONE. STICK WITH IT. Lumping the game and the OAV makes your argument look a tad weak. Because the OAV wasn't ever completed. Because sometimes characters change slightly when you transfer them from one medium to another. Take Harry Potter for example. Movie Hermione is quite different from book Hermione, and I dislike movie Hermione while I am ambivalent on book Hermione. Don't use OAV Navarre if you're trying to argue that game Navarre fits the "Navarre" archetype. The fact that OAV Navarre is redeemed by OAV Lena has nothing to do with game Navarre.

Well we're already using English translations to substitute for original Japanese.

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I don't know shit about the OAVs, but they seem to me to be fair game. The only two problems are, I'm not aware if they're written by the people who wrote FE1? If not, it's possible they took some liberties with the characters. The other possible problem is just that, well, they aren't nearly as available as text that's on the site. I doubt we could even find a script(Unless you have one Banzai?), and to really understand the characters, their development, and their relationships might require watching as much of it as is available. For what it's worth, that's too much work for me to care about, especially with characters as dull as Navarre. I imagine it'd be the same for a lot of people.

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That's actually a good point. I guess I'm reluctant to say Karla is Karel's Lena though because he begins the support with a dogged determination to kill her. You do bring up another good point about Volke and I must admit he seems much stranger in connection to the others. But other than the desire to change, he fits the bill quite well. I'd be willing to tango if anyone wants to take up the Volke argument.

Well, he also lacks the 'dark past' portion, we don't know if Volke's ever taken disreputable work. Maybe he hasn't or maybe he doesn't care, but Volke's just so enigmatic that I find putting him in the Navarre archetype a little difficult. The closest we get to knowing Volke is the job he took with Greil, but while that tells us a lot about Greil, it involves nothing of Volke's past really.

Volke does have a nickname, but other than that seems to lack renown. Being a renowned assassin probably isn't too good for him career wise anyway, the other Navarres fight openly, Volke works from the shadows. Volke isn't so much pensieve and brooding as a utilitarian businessman.

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I don't know shit about the OAVs, but they seem to me to be fair game. The only two problems are, I'm not aware if they're written by the people who wrote FE1? If not, it's possible they took some liberties with the characters. The other possible problem is just that, well, they aren't nearly as available as text that's on the site. I doubt we could even find a script(Unless you have one Banzai?), and to really understand the characters, their development, and their relationships might require watching as much of it as is available. For what it's worth, that's too much work for me to care about, especially with characters as dull as Navarre. I imagine it'd be the same for a lot of people.

I'm not sure if the OAVs were created by Nintendo or not, but if they weren't then the OAVs shouldn't count. For example, if we were analyzing Lachesis' character, we wouldn't use the mangas as evidence, unless we were specifically analyzing manga-Lachesis, right? Unless the OAV had a scriptwriter who worked on the FE games or could attest to the authenticity to the character interpretations, I wouldn't count it. If it's merely fanmade but Nintendo endorsed, I wouldn't count it.

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The other problem is conflicting works, after all if we analyze FE4 there are no less than 2 FE4 manga handling the first generation, and having different views on the characters. Do we count Hasha no Tsurugi when talking FE6? I certainly wouldn't. Not unless they share writers.

Take this for example. Mobile Suit Gundam, written and directed by Yoshiyuki Tomino, The Mobile Suit Gundam novels? ALSO written by Yoshiyuki Tomino, therefore we can safely say that so long as neither source contradicts the other, we can take what we learn from it to be canon. But Bandai also has a policy that Animation outweighs Text, so information learned in Mobile Suit Gundam (TV) override conflicting info from Mobile Suit Gundam (Novel).

Now obviously we don't have any official word canon, but what we must do is make rules.

Rule 1. Nothing outside the games

Rule 2. Latest game in the series canon counts

Otherwise we wind up with really odd shit like Sothe going

(Astrid/Sothe C Support)

Sothe: Ah, well... Who am I to judge? As long as you feather some Daein scum, you're all right with me.

Really seems off when you consider RD doesn't it?

So the latest game to feature Navarre is New Mystery, in New Mystery he's protecting Feena and seems attached to her, he has no interaction or bonuses with Lena outside of chasing her down, and he's recruited by Sheeda.

In Short: He doesn't have a 'Leena' We do not count the OAV because 2 Games have come along since, and do not follow the OAV in anyway.

If you don't establish this rule, shit is going to become stupid and we should all just leave now. We either go by what's first (Dark Dragon, Mystery of the Emblem) or what's last. we do not pick and choose.

Edited by Onmi
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I disagree that Volke, Raven or Jaffar or Karel are Navarres. One of the hallmarks of the Navarre is even though his initial employer might be evil, he is an honourable person, but these characters are hardly honourable. Karel kills whatever he feels like; Volke works entirely for money and even let Izuka hire him at one point; Jaffar seems to only care about Nino and is perfectly happy to kill women (such as Leila); and Raven joins up with Hector's army purely so he can stab him in the back. You should probably remove the word "honourable", since as it is it fits less than half of these "Navarres".

I've already explained that Juno living happily with Zealot =/= Zealot living happily with Juno.

Except that is not what I'm saying. Yuno living happily with Zealot => Zealot settles down with her. Yuno could not be living happily if, as you claim, Zealot is constantly "drawn to the battlefield" and "cannot exist in the realm of domesticity".

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Next, you'll be attempting to dissect Treck/Gonzales for something meaningful.

Obviously, Treck/Gonzales explores the impersonal brutality of war and the futility of maintaining one's humanity in way. Each level depicts two different soldiers, the previous two having died uncerimoniously after their conversation. Both have trouble remembering each other's name; this is indicative of how it is impossible to form friendships and view your comrades as fellow human beings in a warzone. In the end, the A-Treck characters forgets his own name, symbolising in you survive long enough, you will be changed by the experience, to the extent that you are a different person and no longer know who you are.

On-topic:

I think the link between Navarre and Lena is tenuous at best. If you want a woman who redeems or provides a humanising aspect to the Navarre, try Feena.

Aira (FE4) and Marisa (FE8) would also be Navarres. I consider Pahn (FE5) kinda sorta a Navarre, but it's a stretch, since he doesn't have the personality for it.

Joshua would be a Levin archetype, if anything.

Also, in general I wouldn't worry too much about whether characters fit all the characteristics of an archetype, just most of them or the important ones. If every game had characters with the exact same personality, FE wouldn't be a very interesting series for characterisation.

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Okay, there's a lot to respond to.

1. We actually do know that at one point, Volke worked for Izuka. So he has taken on disreputable work before. As far as renown goes, he's worked for one of the generals of Daein and a duke of Crimea; I'd say that's pretty renowned.

2. My grasp on the story of FE3 is tenuous at best, and I know almost nothing about Feena (or as I like to call her, Vena). I will have to look into it.

3. If we want to discount the OAVs, that's okay. I feel we should figure out which secondary material is canon and which isn't. However, there is one other insight into Navarre's personality we may look into: That being the designer notes on his character. Let me post them here real quick:

"It seems Nabarl is travelling the continent in search for an unknown person, which might be related to why he's always silent around young girls in danger. He employs the dual wielding fighting style with eastern blades. He is in his mid 20's." That's apparently only a rough translation of the original, however, so I'm not sure how accurate it is.

4. I don't see how Ayra fits the archetype at all. Marisa I'm more willing to accept.

5. Karel does have some honor; somebody already posted his support with Karla. Jaffar definitely has some--that's the whole reason he joins.

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5. Karel does have some honor; somebody already posted his support with Karla.

What does his support with Karla have anything to do with honor?

Jaffar definitely has some--that's the whole reason he joins.

He joins because Nino, who he cares for, asks him to. I don't see the "honor" in that. From my understanding, an honourable person would at least:

-Not attack or fight anyone who was defenseless, or far weaker than them

-Protect innocents who cannot protect themselves

-Keep his word

I haven't really seen Jaffar or Karel do these things.

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Before joining the heroes' side (because of Nino), Jaffar was nothing but a ruthless killing machine who murdered a woman in cold blood and strung her up to play a cruel joke on the protagonists. How is any of that honorable?

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The thing to be considered with Jaffar is we don't know how old he is. His ruthlessness and cruelty has a lot to do with how old you actually think he is. Especially since Jaffar is one of the few characters who isn't even given a ballpark to how old he is. If you think of him as a teenager, how much of his cruelty is Jaffar as a person and how much of it is what he's been taught?

If we see him as an adult, how much of the killing does he actually enjoy He mentions in the script wanting to move up in the organization (That never made sense) but the divide is how much of it is just a job, and how much does he actually like doing what he does.

Karel WAS a good person growing up, and we know that it was basically the way his family grew up (the men all basically being set against one another) that turned him into the blood thirsty monster that he was. While he doesn't join necessarily seeking redemption, getting to know people causes Karel to try to push those people far away (Guy, Karla) Because even he sees himself as a monster. But always keep in mind what Karel says in FE6

Karel: I was like a demon back then...possessed by the sword. I was aimlessly wandering around, looking for people to satisfy my lust for blood. As long as I could cut, as long as I could kill, it didn't matter who it was. ...Even if that were an infant in a village I happened to stop by at.

Noah: !

Karel: You have no reason to thank me. They call me the Sword Saint... It is but a false name.

Noah: ...... But... I can't imagine that what you say is true when I look at you now. You, standing before me now, are the Sword Saint that I had always pictured in my mind. What... What happened...?

Karel: ...Some things you will realize only after you have lost something else. However, by the time my foolishness had left me...it was already too late.

Edited by Onmi
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I read somewhere that Jaffar is 18-19, but I can't find the source to check whether it's one worth listening to. Thought it was listed here, but it doesn't seem to be.

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I can't find Jaffar's age anywhere either. For some reason, I heard that he was 16 but I have no idea whether this is true or where I heard it from or if there even is a source.

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[spoiler=That Zealot topic we're all sick of discussing but I found something while doing my Hard Mode run and my OCD wouldn't let me not post it]

Conversation (Zealot, Yuno)

Zealot:

"Yuno!"

Yuno:

"Zealot!"

Zealot:

"Are you all right? You're not hurt? They didn't do anything terrible to you?"

Yuno:

"Oh, Zealot, I am no child. I am the ex-flightleader of the Pegasus Knight Fleet, you know."

Zealot:

"That's true, but..."

Yuno:

"I'm all right. I'm not hurt or anything."

Zealot:

"Good..."

Yuno:

"Why are you in the Etrurian Army? I thought you were with the Lycia Alliance."

Zealot:

"Well, it's a long story... Anyway, this is the Etrurian Army only by name. It is actually made up of troops from the Lycia Alliance Army."

Yuno:

"Oh... I see."

Zealot:

"I'm sorry. I couldn't be at the castle when I was needed the most..."

Yuno:

"There's no point in dwelling on the past."

Zealot:

"But you had to go out and fight..."

Yuno:

"Oh? Don't you like my flightleader outfit?"

Zealot:

"Of course I do! But..."

Yuno:

"Then there's no problem. You'll be seeing a lot of it from now on."

Zealot:

"What! Do you mean..."

Yuno:

"Yes. I will fight alongside you as well."

Zealot:

"No! No no no. You retired long ago. So just leave the fighting to us..."

Yuno:

"Even after I retired, I had to fight anyway. Zealot, there is no safe place in the world any more."

Zealot:

"Well..."

Yuno:

"So I will fight, so I can help bring a time of peace all the more quickly."

Now onto less... spergy things (But not by much)

Jaffar was that young (16) in my mind, otherwise the whole Nino thing quickly becomes... VERY creepy.

I think with Karel it's less that he sought out redemption, more that redemption sought HIM out. We're never given a hint as to what caused his drastic personality shift, other than "By the time I had realized what I had lost, it was too late."

His 'Redemption' however seems to have cost him everything

C Support

Zeiss: You're the Sword Saint...?

Karel: ...They gave me that name against my will. Just call me Karel.

Zeiss: Master Karel, I am a Dragon Knight of Bern.

Karel: ......

Zeiss: ...You're not going to say anything? My father said you fought against Bern in the past. He saw you in a rain of blood, slicing all those who crossed your path...

Karel: ...I am through with this world. Bern, Etruria... They are meaningless words to me now. I am only here for my family.

Zeiss: ...I see. If only I could think like that... But I can't...not even after Bern has fallen...

I take it his mental shift happened after Karla's death, since his A Support with Bartre says that he believed he left the impression of a terrible brother, but Bartre believed otherwise from Karla's stories.

Bartre: ...After she fell sick, my wife starting telling me about her family for the first time. She talked about her heritage, about you, and...about herself.

Karel: I'm sure my sister was happy to be with you when she left this world.

Bartre: Around that time was when we first met each other as well... You resembled my wife when we first met. You were inhumanly strong... Dangerous, and forbidding.

Karel: ...Yes. That time, I left you two without saying a word. You must have thought what a terrible brother I was.

Bartre: No, not at all. While she was dying, my wife told me about her childhood with you... She would tell me over and over again, with a smile on her face.

Karel: ...... Yes...I see...

RED ALERT though because this story is inconsistent with FE7... well an FE7 that considers Karel's recruitment canon. I wonder is it possible to be in the same army and yet never meet?

Ike

What the...? Um...who are you? How long have you been a member of my troop?

Apparently.

With Rutgar, the driving motivation isn't Redemption, but Revenge and Guilt. He wants revenge on Bern for slaughtering those who showed him kindness, and he feels guilty that he survived when others died. As you can see from his A Support with Dieck.

A Support

Dieck: Rutgar, you all right? You don't look well.

Rutgar: ...I'm having trouble sleeping.

Dieck: Is it about the leader of the Bulgar attack you saw the other day?

Rutgar: ...No. Well...maybe. Even after I see him dead, my nightmares still persist. At that attack... They left only me alive... The reason was because I...didn't look like a Sacae native.

Dieck: Tough to kill someone with the same colored skin. But you do have Sacaean blood in you, don't you?

Rutgar: Yes. My father's mother and my mother's father were Sacaean. Bulgar is near Bern's border, so there are a lot of mixed people there. But usually the Sacaean side is stronger in mixed childrens' appearanaces. But I... Only in me did the Bern side come out more, so I was kept alive... The people of Bulgar...they were kind to me, even though I looked different... But they...they were killed, so brutally! I must destroy Bern...! That one man isn't enough to satisfy my revenge...

Guilt defines him, because no matter who he kills or what he does to Bern, that guilt for surviving is there, constantly gnawing at him.

I think to redefine the Navarre, it's less that they seek redemption, but more that they are driven by a purpose and/or defined by a moment in their past. The original Navarre didn't have it until Mystery of the Emblem, and it's revealed in his character notes that something happened with a Woman in the past to define who he is.

Aless of course seeks vengeance for his father and is defined by the hatredhe grew up with, Shiva seeks redemption in Safy though I'm not sure of his past, Rutgar is defined by his guilt, Karel by his blood lust and then his world weariness, Volke is the odd one out, because we really don't know anything about Volke beyond him being a 'Fireman' and accepting any job for money (And being unintentionally hilarious) But if we accept that the Navarre isn't defined by a need for redemption but rather by their past, the Zihark fits well, defined by his loss.

Edited by Onmi
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You better be being sarcastic .how could I not know point is only thing he really has been talking about is whether or not zealot is gay or not and that isn't the title of topic . I understand literal analysis Ive had to write quite a few essay and read an utter load of various literary criticisms and analyses and I can safely say this just retard . The only thing I agree with him on is how the placement of commas effects the meaning anyone who's even taken any college level English course should know the effect syntax can have on the meaning of a sentence .

I'm surprised that you've written papers considering how awful your grammer in this paragraph was. Is English not your first language?

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Must reconsider Zealot.

Now about the redemption aspect. I don't feel we need to redefine the Navarre in terms of "goal-oriented" versus "seeking redemption". I feel instead that there are two distinct categories of Navarres. Both categories are united by similar personality and status as a renowned killer, but are differentiated by the Lena/Redemption connection.

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Obviously, Treck/Gonzales explores the impersonal brutality of war and the futility of maintaining one's humanity in way. Each level depicts two different soldiers, the previous two having died uncerimoniously after their conversation. Both have trouble remembering each other's name; this is indicative of how it is impossible to form friendships and view your comrades as fellow human beings in a warzone. In the end, the A-Treck characters forgets his own name, symbolising in you survive long enough, you will be changed by the experience, to the extent that you are a different person and no longer know who you are.

That made my life.

Must reconsider Zealot.

Yep. I'd say throw him in with Harken and Astram. People who are incredibly dedicated to everything in their lives, both country and loved ones, but have trouble with the more personal things due to unpleasant circumstances.

Now about the redemption aspect. I don't feel we need to redefine the Navarre in terms of "goal-oriented" versus "seeking redemption". I feel instead that there are two distinct categories of Navarres. Both categories are united by similar personality and status as a renowned killer, but are differentiated by the Lena/Redemption connection.

If that's the case, you shouldn't combine them into one archetype. That is a very big difference between the two, to the point that they are very dissimilar. If you just do the motivation, then they can remain as one point, but making the motivation redemption causes issues.

As for the technical stuff, I haven't payed attention to the stories enough in a long damn time to actually say anything. And I have an English paper I should be working on :dry:

EDIT: Also, and I don't mean this offensively, though it probably will sound this way, but this reminds me of class when we're workshoping someone's story and someone (Banzai here) comes up with an idea that no one else likes or thinks has any validity. The only difference is, in class, the person will stop trying to defend it after about the third person, at most, disagrees, while Banzai keeps going.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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I think Rutgar does want to be redeemed, or at least not be the person he is now (he wants to hear the wind of Sacae again or whatever hippie stuff). Other Navarres* don't seek redemption, but they seem to end up finding it.

*Well not Volke. He doesn't seem to have anything he want be redeemed for, nor does he have a desire to change. He's stoic and has a nickname, but that seems to be about it.

Edited by -Cynthia-
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Also, and I don't mean this offensively, though it probably will sound this way, but this reminds me of class when we're workshoping someone's story and someone (Banzai here) comes up with an idea that no one else likes or thinks has any validity. The only difference is, in class, the person will stop trying to defend it after about the third person, at most, disagrees, while Banzai keeps going.

Being the minority doesn't automatically mean I'm wrong, and if we thought like that there would never be any change ever.

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I'll make my case for Aira.

We first see her working as a mercenary for Verdane, a country both at war with the player's army (like Aless and Rutgar), and comprised of earlygame bandit exp fodder (like Navarre and Shiva). As with Rutgar, her employer notes that she's not very pleasant, but a renowned swordmaster. (Incidentally, she is the first ever unit to have the Myrmidon -> Swordmaster class typically used by Navarres; FE1 and FE3 Navarre was a Mercenary -> Hero). She's seeking revenge against Grandbell rather than redemption, but she does have a clear purpose in protecting her nephew, Prince Shanan, until he's old enough to fend for himself. In her recruitment conversation, she says she'll trust Sigurd because he trusts her, showing she is an honourable warrior.

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Being the minority doesn't automatically mean I'm wrong, and if we thought like that there would never be any change ever.

Well, that depends. Short story time: I played in marching band for all four years of high school. For our field positions we had what we call "dots" that represent the spot we need to be standing on the field at any given time. However, more than that, we needed to be in form; since I'm naturally precise, I almost always hit my dot accurately, but others that might be in the same line as me - or were supposed to be - may have all followed one other person, usually in the front of the line (I'm probably at the back and can't be seen in this situation), who was wrong, and so everyone was off their assigned dot by at least a few paces. But then even though I could point to the dot sheets and show that I'm in the right spot, I'd still be wrong because I need to stay in form until one of the marching techs comes by and fixes everyone together. This is necessary because, in a competition, judges won't necessarily know that all but one are off the dot; they'll only see one person out of form and we get marked down for it.

Lesson: sometimes being the only one that's right does, in fact, make you wrong. Now I haven't been following this topic at all, but the nature of it seems like it could be the kind of thing where this lesson may apply (this isn't something like Math with set-in-stone answers, after all). And remember: if you really are right, the truth should come out eventually. Kieran > Ike.

If everyone disagrees with you but you still can't see why, you should at least consider taking a step back and trying to consider the possibility that you're wrong. You may make a new discovery. Knowing how to be wrong has gone a long way to helping me be right.

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