deuxhero Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Best: Get supplies in 5 turns Honorable mention: 80 deaths. Worst: Defeat Boss in X turns Defend Dishonorable mention: Seize. Nom Best/Worst Parent of a Lord Edited March 18, 2012 by deuxhero Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluedoom Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 ^Similar to his. Best: Get supplies in 5 turns. :3 Worst: FE10 ROUT! God, FE10 is the worst game to have the Rout condition, seriously. >.<(...perhaps it'd be worse in FE11 H5 or FE12 Lunatic Reverse, but eh) Nominate Best/Worst Partent of a Lord Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darros Posted March 18, 2012 Author Share Posted March 18, 2012 I understand why people dislike it since all of FE6/Akaneia games is seize and nothing else and it gets repetitive, but I don't see it as a painful objective by itself. Not to mention FE4, where you have to seize every castle except for the very last castle of each generation where the goal changes (Talk and Defeat Boss). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Actually, even the Final's objective is Seize. After killing Julius, you see Loptous disappear, and if they're still alive, Manfroy and his mages die, but the game continues until you seize Valhalla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rehab Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Favorite: FE10 part 4 (I think?)'s defeat enough enemies requirement (like a hundred?). BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD Least Favorite: Seizing doesn't entirely make sense to me. I don't see the point of the battle not just stopping when the fighting's done, unless I also get to control units outside of battles, and I don't usually see what difference one guy stepping on a chair or door makes, without them attaching a lot of symbolic importance. Edited March 18, 2012 by Rehab Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I myself am a big fan of FE5 escape maps. My least favorite objective is rout. Othin: do you know of any examples of (in your opinion) good defend maps from FE games? I have been thinking about how to design a defend map that can't easily be trivialized and I can't really even think of one from existing FE games. Edited March 18, 2012 by dondon151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I myself am a big fan of FE5 escape maps. My least favorite objective is rout. Why don't you like routs? I think "[bLEEP] seize" because some of the stupidest maps in the FE series are none other than seize maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Seize allows for some creative strategy space in getting units from point A to B. Rout is just boring and generally involves putting 4 OP'd units in different parts of the map and watching enemies die. It takes way too long. I don't agree that there are any "stupid" maps that are seize maps. Well, maybe FE6 chapter 24, because that involves 7 consecutive seizes. But there are many "stupid" rout maps, like FE7 HHM chapter 29, or any of the desert rout maps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Seize allows for some creative strategy space in getting units from point A to B. Rout is just boring and generally involves putting 4 OP'd units in different parts of the map and watching enemies die. It takes way too long. I don't agree that there are any "stupid" maps that are seize maps. Well, maybe FE6 chapter 24, because that involves 7 consecutive seizes. But there are many "stupid" rout maps, like FE7 HHM chapter 29, or any of the desert rout maps. I suppose it's a matter of perspective. There are like a crapton of seize maps I dislike, and seizing being boring does its case no favors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Seize allows for some creative strategy space in getting units from point A to B. Rout is just boring and generally involves putting 4 OP'd units in different parts of the map and watching enemies die. It takes way too long. I don't agree that there are any "stupid" maps that are seize maps. Well, maybe FE6 chapter 24, because that involves 7 consecutive seizes. But there are many "stupid" rout maps, like FE7 HHM chapter 29, or any of the desert rout maps. What about all those maps in FE12 where it's basically "warp shidda warp marth seize"? Yeah, tons of "creative strategy space". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) That's a matter of warp being OP'd though. If warp came a lot later with more limited uses and limited range, it'd just be a really good staff but not a total gamebreaker. If you don't play warpskip it's pretty alright. (and it's FE11 where you get like 4 warp staves with a fuckton of uses compared to its other game counterparts. FE12 warp comes pretty late and doesn't exist in Lunatic) Edited March 18, 2012 by Luminescent Blade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Othin: do you know of any examples of (in your opinion) good defend maps from FE games? I have been thinking about how to design a defend map that can't easily be trivialized and I can't really even think of one from existing FE games. Now that you mention it, the only one that comes immediately to mind is FE5 Chapter 14. But it's been a while since I've played it, and I remember finding that it turned out to have much easier ways to deal with it than what I encountered on my first playthrough. I also recall FE10 3-13 working out well with its defense of a wide area against rather tough enemies, but I haven't played that map in years, so I'm even less sure about my recollections of it. Hmm. I guess my ideas on this mainly stem from Berwick Saga, as well. One nice advantage it has is that the hex grid makes it much more difficult to block chokepoints, even when they exist. If you're blocking a bridge or something else where the chokepoint is only one hex deep, you either need one character in the chokepoint exposed to more attacks, or two characters right behind the chokepoint both able to take attacks. I'm guessing that's a bit more extreme than you're interested in, though. On a perhaps more relevant note, it also contains maps with more open-field defenses, like Anouleth suggested. One interesting way it makes a few of the open-field defenses work is that it adds some objectives involving defending NPCs, often from multiple directions. The NPCs are fortunately never the type to decide they can fight on their own, and they either remain still or move away from enemies to escape. This creates a more abstract and less localized defense target, similarly contributing to making it less easy to just block off a specific location and call it a day. Even if it's not strictly from the FE series, I think it's similar enough to serve as a demonstration of some strengths and weaknesses of these systems. So if you're interested in taking a look, it might give you some ideas. Edited March 18, 2012 by Othin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Now that you mention it, the only one that comes immediately to mind is FE5 Chapter 14. I thought you could beat that chapter fairly easily by abusing supports and the like to reduce the enemies to 0 avoid? But it's been a while since I've played it, and I remember finding that it turned out to have much easier ways to deal with it than what I encountered on my first playthrough. I also recall FE10 3-13 working out well with its defense of a wide area against rather tough enemies, but I haven't played that map in years, so I'm even less sure about my recollections of it. You remember it incorrectly, then. 3-13 can be defended merely by blocking 2 chokepoints and using the ballista to kill the few hawks on the field. It looks like a large map, but the laguz can't attack up ledges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) I thought you could beat that chapter fairly easily by abusing supports and the like to reduce the enemies to 0 avoid? Haven't tried it, but I wouldn't be surprised. You remember it incorrectly, then. 3-13 can be defended merely by blocking 2 chokepoints and using the ballista to kill the few hawks on the field. It looks like a large map, but the laguz can't attack up ledges. Well, that changes things. Edited March 18, 2012 by Othin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Now that you mention it, the only one that comes immediately to mind is FE5 Chapter 14. But it's been a while since I've played it, and I remember finding that it turned out to have much easier ways to deal with it than what I encountered on my first playthrough. I had a feeling you'd say that. FE5 chapter 14 is very easily trivialized by just having 3 unarmed mounted units block 3 chokepoints near the defense tile and waiting out all 10 turns. I had a base + promo Fin with Nanna and King Sword Leaf nearby making him virtually unhittable (blocking the 3-way chokepoint near the center of the map), and Glade and Fred blocked the sides by only facing 1 attack per turn with no chance of a critical hit. This method of defense is counterintuitive for less experienced players but it's generally extremely effective at completely trivializing any defense map that offers chokepoints to the player's advantage. The other thing is that defense maps where the player has to defend a single tile are similarly trivialized by placing an unarmed bulky unit on the defense tile and just waiting out x turns. So consequently, a defense map that cannot be trivialized this way must take place in an open space, offer few chokepoints, and provide more than just a single tile as a defense objective. Doing it FE7 HHM chapter 26 style doesn't really work where you just simply have to survive because it's really easy to just deploy a handful of your strongest units and tank through everything. What you suggested about NPC defense objectives sounds like a good idea. I also like the hex tile system, but that's probably never coming to Fire Emblem. Edited March 18, 2012 by dondon151 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) One interesting way it makes a few of the open-field defenses work is that it adds some objectives involving defending NPCs, often from multiple directions. The NPCs are fortunately never the type to decide they can fight on their own, and they either remain still or move away from enemies to escape. This creates a more abstract and less localized defense target, similarly contributing to making it less easy to just block off a specific location and call it a day. This actually sounds really interesting. I somewhat like the FE7 Merlinus chapter(13x? I think? And even that one I don't think is well done) because of having to defend a ton of space with few available units good at it. An open field with a moving defense point would be a nice change of pace, especially if there were side goals involved. Edit: The main thing with that chapter is that it too can be easily trivialized. I'd imagine a changing defense point with a lot of open space could keep that from happening. Don't know if that point was well conveyed, but whatever. Edited March 18, 2012 by Aethereal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swordsalmon Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Othin: do you know of any examples of (in your opinion) good defend maps from FE games? I have been thinking about how to design a defend map that can't easily be trivialized and I can't really even think of one from existing FE games. Chapter 13 on Eirika's route in Sacred Stones is probably the best example. It's all open fields, and you have to remain the whole chapter to recruit Cormag. Killing Aias does end the chapter, but he's not exactly an easy boss. I want to see more Defend chapters like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Chapter 13 on Eirika's route in Sacred Stones is probably the best example. It's all open fields, and you have to remain the whole chapter to recruit Cormag. Killing Aias does end the chapter, but he's not exactly an easy boss. I want to see more Defend chapters like that. On the contrary, I think that's one of the easiest defense chapters in the series. I've always viewed the map as primarily a bosskill map because Aias is extremely easy to defeat. But even if you were to hold out however many turns you were required to, the majority of the enemies on that map must pass through the 2-tile wide chokepoint on the right side of the map, and there are a couple of conveniently placed forts there as well. You can block the northwest reinforcement spawn by parking a couple of units on those forts. The tricky part is when Pablo and a group of enemies ambush you from behind, but I've never actually played that map to its full length, so I don't know if they are difficult or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted March 18, 2012 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) Most of FE's defend maps are too easy, yeah. Take C30 HHM for example. I was able to completely rout the map several turns before the turn limit is up, so my last few turns was literally just pressing the wait button until the time is up. BBD too if Jaffar's AI/RNG doesn't feel like being a dick that day. Seriously, the defend maps are easier to rout than the actual rout maps. Edited March 19, 2012 by Luminescent Blade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bishop Rodan Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Best: FE5 Escape Honourable mentions: Defend, Killcount (FE10 3-E) Worst: Seize Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaMonkey Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 (edited) NM has been offline for 11 days, and I don't want this topic to die, so I guess I'll do it for this week. You know, I once went two weeks without internet and the (then) current B/W topic was still within the top 10 threads... Anyway, Best: Rout Worst: Seize Edited March 19, 2012 by NinjaMonkey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just call me AL Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 You know, I once went two weeks without internet and the B/W topic was still within the top 10 threads... Where were you anyways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaMonkey Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 In hospital, being treated for pneumonia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-land-I-used-to-love Posted March 19, 2012 Share Posted March 19, 2012 Best: Rout Worst: Defeat X enimies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted March 20, 2012 Share Posted March 20, 2012 Best: Seize Worst: Survive for X turns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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