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"Gently Caress Bloodpacts!" Lets Play Radiant Dawn

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When she met Sothe, he was tiny as all hell, She does not look her age, she in fact looks exactly the age she does now when she first met him, and he's 12 in PoR, either the same age or older than Sanaki.

I find it a little bit hard to believe that Sothe is only 15 in RD.

30-40 is VERY likely.

Uh, why? We know that Micaiah is at least 23, but I'm leaning towards the lower end of 23+, since she has no memories of growing up in Sienne. If she were 12 when she was "assassinated", she would presumably remember her mother and grandmother. Unless you're suggesting that she conveniently lost her memories or something to fit your weird timeline.

Easy, in one we didn't need frigging god to come in to establish that Micaiah is someone who puts others before her, while if she simply hears the screams, and consciously makes the decision to double back, then it is all on her. It hurts Micaiah as a character to use the plot device. And if you can't see that then I don't know what to tell you.

Uh, why? How does it matter how Micaiah knows that something bad will happen? Whether she figures it out through farsight or by hearing screams, it's still her decision to double back and help those people.

He still dies, roasted alive by someone he called a friend, his two best friends and sisters murdered. I'm saying "One is as bad as the other" you're saying "This one is superior to the other"

It would be like if at the start of Part 3, Micaiah uses her farsight to immediately figure out that Daein was under a bloodpact orchestrated by the Begnion senators. i.e. lame. It's true that the visions aren't enough to save Sigurd, but in the same way, Micaiah's visions are rarely useful either; but at least they're not used for exposition dumps like Claude's is. They're usually used to set up minor encounters and scenes (such as the one with Nico), or to add an interesting element to conversations and Micaiah's interactions.

No but thanks for comically missing the point. The point is "Well we can't think of a way to make the villains sympathetic, might as well make them kitten killers".

Why do they have to make the villains sympathetic?

Let's sequence break for a bit, In 1-6 A Begnion commander orders them to stand down or they start killing hostages, so once the Dawn Brigade stands down they decide "Hey lets kill the hostages anyway, LOL!"

Well, I was talking about 1-1. Apparently, it's unrealistically evil for a soldier to attack a civilian. From my knowledge of history, I can tell you categorically that this kind of shit happened all the fucking time.

And yes, when a dumbass bandit did the same thing in Path of Radiance, IT WAS JUST AS STUPID. This is cartoonish, these figures I am fighting against aren't a frightening evil, their the bad guys of a cartoon, with no redeeming traits because Gawrsh, it would be hard to make the bad guys anything BUT unrepentant!

And Im' telling you, that this isn't cartoonish. You don't have to look at a cartoon to see soldiers killing civilians who are in their way. Just open a newspaper. Syria is a good modern example.

Tell me, of the Begnion commanders in the game, which of them have redeeming qualities. 3. Zelgius, Levail, and the Dark Mage working under them, and technically he doesn't count because he's not a commander.

Why does it matter if most of the begnion commanders don't have any apparent redeeming qualities? Why do they have to be redeemed?

Begnion in this game is cartoonish because they do not come across as a nation, they come across as the agents of Dr. Klaw, Again they are one fucking train track away from literally tying maidens to the train track. And the worst part is in Part 1? there's no subtlety to the evil, it's hammer in the face "We're assholes!" "They're assholes!" But don't you worry, I'll vent my frustration at this shitty writing next update.

They do come across as a nation. Nations have done horrible, horrible things. It's very believable for someone who has read real life accounts of people such as Amon Goth or Boudica to believe that commanders might do such terrible things.

Bullshit, she always choose what she see's right up until the flames of war start getting stroked and we have Chaos in the air. You know what a story that relies on coincidence and contrivance (Read: RELIES not, contains) is called? A bad story.

I don't think the story is really reliant on it.

Yeah I'm sure, Sothe, the War veteran with the custom Crit knife was going to have so much trouble with the troll who's main actions has been gunning down civilians and growing a snidely whiplash mustache in private.

Actually, a base level Sothe would only deal 4 damage per attack to Jarod and would probably get 3 or 4HKOed back. After all, Sothe is just a thief while Jarod is a real soldier. It makes sense in plot terms and in gameplay terms that the Dawn Brigade wouldn't be able to take Jarod on. And what if Jarod had more soldiers with him? Sothe can't kill Jarod on his own, let alone Jarod with some soldiers to help him.

Speaking of which, Sothe was the only one with her at the time. So even if she just told HIM, he could have easily handled the situation. This is a CONTRIVANCE.

I really doubt that Sothe could defeat Jarod and his guards on his own, either in story terms or gameplay terms.

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In my Knives only PT Sothe defeated not only Jarod but also Lethe, Mordecai and Ike on his own.

(for Ike he needed a lot of luck though 23% chance of surviving long enough for just Ike (so the crappy Laguz make that probably like 12-13% total)

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According to Naesala, Petrine also does this. He tells his subordinates to send a Daein soldier to bring the news, because she'll kill them if they do.

I said as much. Soldiers often operate in fear of Petrine's wrath. Interestingly, such wrath is never directly demonstrated.

Or they might even send a beorc instead of a Raven to send news, which would be slower...

Indeed. The writers of PoR at least thought this one through. There is a downside to Petrine's threats; her aura of fear. Not so in RD. The Begnion soldiers in 1-E are as loyal to Jarod as ever, it would seem. And while PoR features two major villains that approach cartoon quality (Petrine and Ashnard), they are the norm in RD. It isn't just Jarod, it's nearly every featured commader in the Begnion Occupation Army. Also, Valtome is willing to publicly execute Zelgius for disobedience. If he had done so, isn't it 100% likely that Levail and a large portion of the Begnion Central Army would have mutinied? Zelgius is described as being a beloved General. Politicians don't get away with executing such Generals.

It depends on who it was... because some of them did.

I made a distinction between executing civilians publicly, and executing civilians outside of the public eye.

From Wikipedia's entry on the Holocaust:

Opinions differ on how much the civilian population of Germany knew about the government conspiracy against the Jewish population. Most historians claim that the civilian population was unaware of the atrocities that were carried out, especially in the extermination camps, which were located outside of Germany in Nazi-occupied Europe. The historian Robert Gellately, however, claims that the government openly announced the conspiracy through the media, and that civilians were aware of its every aspect except for the use of gas chambers.[11] Significant historical evidence points to the idea that the vast majority of Holocaust victims, prior to their deportation to concentration camps, were either unaware of the fate that awaited them, or were in disbelief; they honestly believed that they were to be resettled.

There is always a limit to what those in power can get away with. Even the most heinous governments take efforts to hide civilian executions. And for obvious reasons. If civilians believe that they might be killed by their goverment, emmigration and rebellion become more attractive. Jarod, as the leader of an occupying force in a foreign nation, should be especially sensitive to this possibility.

Do you think that the Begnion Occupation Force should have broken out the tear gas and the water cannons? The Begnion Occupation Force firing on civilians is not "cartoonish", unless you think that the Rape of Nanjing or the Sharpeville Massacre are "cartoons". Armies fire on crowds of civilians. It really, really does happen. And it's not a joke, like you seem to think it is. If anything, it's unrealistic that the soldiers refuse to fire on the civilians later on.

You are correct; civilian deaths are not a light matter. They happen very rarely and under extreme circumstances. Generally (as in the Sharpeville Massacre), the situation emerges from an initially civil protest movement becoming hostile. The authorities attempt non-lethal responses to subdue the crowd. Eventually, and most unfortunately, individual soldiers/policemen act in contradiction to given orders and open fire with lethal force. Compare this to the civilian execution in 1-1. The crowd is nothing but civil. The soldiers attempt no non-lethal means to intimidation or suppression. And the commanding officer orders the execution and takes part in it himself. This makes light of civilian execution.

Why do they have to make the villains sympathetic?

Why does it matter if most of the begnion commanders don't have any apparent redeeming qualities? Why do they have to be redeemed?

Antagonists don't have to be sympathetic or likeable, but they should have plausible objectives, and take rational actions in pursuit of those objectives. And if they do not act rationally, there should be realistic consequences.

I really doubt that Sothe could defeat Jarod and his guards on his own, either in story terms or gameplay terms.

I agree. But if Micaiah foresaw her own capture (as she seemingly did in 1-3), why not ... evade it?

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Here's an idea for you Anouleth, if you don't like what's being said in this thread you can always leave and just let the rest of us enjoy Onmi's work

Edited by Eail

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explain to me what about this discussion is preventing you from enjoying onmi's work

i, personally, enjoy reading this kind of back-and-forth over the plot, so here's an idea for you

if you don't like what's being said in this thread you can ignore it

Edited by Camtech

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I know I said I wouldn't update today but I've got it sitting here ready for upload anyway.

Chapter 1-3: Oh hell it's you assholes again.

[spoiler=Pre Battle]

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We arrive at Glaive prison after... whatever the hell Chapter 1-2 was supposed to be. Regardless, Laura and Micaiah, the two most fragile characters we have are now isolated from the rest of the Dawn Brigade. Will this lead to a repeat of Fire Emblem 5, teaming up with other prisoners to escape? Yes and No. Radiant Dawn doesn't hate you NEARLY as much as Thracia 776 does.

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Laura, You were the one who grabbed the medicine, you were captured during the escape. I think your hope of the abbot being fine is deluded hope. He's most likely dead. Which made all of last chapter completely fucking pointless. Thanks again Radiant Dawn, if last chapters plot point was going to wind up being worthless anyway, why didn't you just have Micaiah captured when she went back to heal Nico and skip 1-2 all together? Laura could still be in prison here to keep Aran in line or something. I hate 1-2.

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It's time to reintroduce some old characters though, Aimee, the character who's sole defining trait is hitting on a 17 year old who never got the 'Talk'. Illyana, Who's sole defining trait is being hungry. And Kurth, who's sole defining trait is showing up in 1 cutscene in Path of Radiance and BEING A DRAGON! So yeah guess which of these characters I hate the most.

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The point of this scene however is to establish that 'Begnion is Evil™' and are just going around throwing random people into jail for "The general's pleasure." I'm confused, haven't we established this within the... first 3 chapters? Yes, they're evil, we get it! Regardless Micaiah trusts Kurth's medicine to help her, got no problems with this, but before we can actually start worrying about our predicament, Sothe shows up.

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See with no Ike around Aimee's reduced to hitting on Sothe, who's around the same age (Extensive checking reveals Sothe doesn't have an official age, but he's Tormods age, and both of them were kids in Path of Radiance, and it's only been 3 years. Given he's younger than Ike, who's 20 in this game, I'll put it at 15-17) so I guess it's alright? she's still a frigging one note character who's probably cougar age, but hey this is the same series with incest incest everywhere... also it's Aimee, so who cares?

Regardless Sothe mentions that he met Aimee during the war, and opens the door telling the occupants to frigging vamoose before the guards show up. Kurth reveals his name and we cut to outside.

[spoiler=Battle]

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Regardless, the rest of the meat shields DAWN BRIGADE show up and mention that a Begnion soldier let them in, which leads to some heavy handed foreshadowing of why a Begnion trooper would help. Pointing out that he's helping because of Laura and her wondering who could know her in the Begnion army.

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In the increasing list of coincidences, while raiding the armory Sothe managed to nick all of our old equipment and some thunder tomes for Ilyana, apparently despite being a close friend of Tormods, Sothe doesn't actually know what the various tomes are because he can't read the ancient language... because ya know they aren't colour-coded or anything. Anyway, I would be pretty pissed off if I lost out on my Thani tome, but was it too much to ask for a FE5 system where we retrieved our equipment? I'm not mad or angry, just... I dunno, curious? left wanting more?

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Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. Ha. KILL YOURSELF. Anyway it's time for the good part of Radiant Dawn, the Gameplay,

We start by moving Leonardo towards the Myrmidon and chipping him for a level, I had a better level on a different run, but I wasn't going to sit there for 5 hours reloading the battle save until everyone escaped. Also we got a much better level later on.

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Edward moves between the tree's in preparation for both the Sword Armor and the Fighter incoming, Micaiah stands behind him with Thani ready to bomb on Turn 2, Nolan comes up and finishes off the Myrmidon while Ilyana makes herself useful and nukes the Fighter. Sothe unequips his knife and throws himself into the fray, ready to laugh at literally anything coming his way. On turn 2, Nolan moves forward and weakens another Soldier while Laura keeps out of range but ready to talk to Aran on the next turn. Micaiah Thani's the Sword Armor and Edward goes to cut off the Fighter after a lucky dodge. By turn 3 our Formation looks like this when Aran is recruited by Laura

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She heals up Nolan for a level and-

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What the FUCK? It was at this point I Battle Save and decide "I'm not losing this level" not after all the other thrown out good levels. Thankfully my luck would continue.

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Leo chip kills the fighter which leaves Edward open for Operation: Keep Laura the fuck alive! After Ilyana heavily reduces an enemies HP Edward comes in for the level and-

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Edward, you're in my good books, if only everyone got level-ups like this, I wouldn't have a desire to slaughter you all. Nolans up next for killing a Javelin Armor, possibly with help from Aran, The short of it?

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Well it's not very 'Fightery' but turning down Skill, Speed and Res on a fighter? not likely.

There's a bit more murder undocumented by screen shots, but the plan during play was to get Micaiah to kill the boss (after Sothe looted the Discipline scroll), eventually we set it up just right.

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No it wont, and the Dawn Brigade has one of my favorite chapters in the game, a favorite of many I think. So I'm glad this wont be our last fight.

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Despite no speed, Micaiah gets a pretty nice level here, 3+ Stat level ups are all I ask for really, any less and I consider it a waste (unless it boosts a MUCH needed stat) regardless it's time to bring our 'Partner' units up, Just a turn before reinforcements are about to pour in, and I'm sure you've all spotted the mistake that will cost me in this battle.

Regardless Edward charges forward and kills off an Axe user for a decent level.

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More strength isn't bad on a sword user, neither is more HP and Luck.

Well it's time for Aran's debut in the levelling club as he hurls a Javelin through that guy head

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Welcome to the team you characterless son of a bitch.

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Now lets skip ahead in time to Turn 9. We've killed the enemies on the opposite side of the courtyard and Kurth and Aimee have been fleeing for their lives, unfortunatly we have a problem you would have caught earlier. Kurth wont make it to the gate in 10 turns and he's worth 100BEXP. That means I have to wait around to Turn 11 and not get the max BEXP from Turn Count. I'm not playing for speed but I don't like to take too long on chapters. eventually I decided it's more profitable to let the characters act as they will, rather than gimp my BEXP. Unfortunately if I had thought about it, killing the spawning enemies was worth more EXP than the Paltry 80 BEXP gotten from the 10 turn time limit. So it would have been more profitable to hang around murdering dudes and getting some EXP into Laura and Aran, rather than leave with enemies on the map, but hey Hindsights a bitch.

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All that EXP... Regardless we've cleared the map, so now I'm subjected to one of the scenes I hate the most in this game, This is the one time I will truly lose my cool, as in not just for a joke. I'm letting you know ahead of time so you can tell it's serious.

[spoiler=Post Battle]

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Aimee starts of the cutscene just fine, she thanks Micaiah for helping her get back to the Merchant caravan and says she's sorry to see Daein in the state it's in, and hey I actually don't mind this stuff, as much as I harp on "Yes we get it Begnion is evil" Daein really has been shitsville, even disregarding the cartoony nature of the bad guys, it still makes sense to feel this way. So the scene starts of fine, next we-

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What. What. WHAT! ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? DID YOU SERIOUSLY JUST CROSS THAT LINE RADIANT DAWN? DID YOU SERIOUSLY JUST TRY TO SAY THAT ASHNARD IS ALMOST PREFERABLE TO BEGNION? DID YOU FOR A SECOND SUGGEST THAT ASHNARD DIDN'T TRY TO DESTROY CRIMEA AS A COUNTRY? SERIOUSLY? THAT JUST FUCKING HAPPENED? BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! A GIANT CROCK OF FUCKING BULLSHIT! WE NOT ONLY SAW CIVILIANS DRAGGED OFF TO WORK CAMPS TO BE BROKEN DOWN AND WORKED TO DEATH, BUT DAEIN SOLDIERS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED THAT THEY WENT AROUND TO TOWNS, UNDER ORDERS, TO BREAK THE PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH ASHNARD HAS CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY. ASHNARD WAS A MURDEROUS INSANE BASTARD WHO DIDN'T JUST TRY TO BREAK CRIMEA, BUT ALL NATIONS, WHO WANTED TO EXTERMINATE ANYONE WHO WAS WEAKER THAN HE WAS, OBSESSED SO MUCH WITH HIS DARWIN BELIEFS THAT IT DIDN'T ACCOUNT FOR THE PEOPLE! FUCK YOU JORGE YOU FUCKING WORTHLESS WASTE OF SPACE! HOW FUCKING DARE YOU THINK YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH THAT BULLSHIT?! BEGNION IS TREATING DAEIN AS A BUNCH OF SLAVES, I DO NOT DENY THIS, BUT TO TRY AND SAY THEY ARE WORSE THAN ASHNARD OR THAT HE NEVER TRIED TO DESTROY CRIMEA, OR INDEED ALL OF TELLIUS PEOPLE AND WHOLE, IS JUST SO FUCKING WRONG. NO GAME! NO YOU DO NOT GET TO PULL THAT SHIT!

FUCK YOU!

okay yeah i'm done.

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there's a rumor that ashnard has an heir and they could use him like crimea used elincia to win back the nation.

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micaiah activates farsight and pinpoints his general location, mentions that meeting him will change the shape of their future. all in all i have no problems with this plot point, drawing comparisons between the greil mercenaries and the dawn brigade are fine especially for when the game inevitably pits them against one another. the problem like almost everything is in the execution, but we can't properly go over that till like the near-end of part 1.

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I have no problem with this MVP selection, Sword & Bow inc. have been kicking ass throughout the game. Anyway, see you next time for 1-4, hopefully with more details of the battle.

Edited by Onmi

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Indeed. The writers of PoR at least thought this one through. There is a downside to Petrine's threats; her aura of fear. Not so in RD. The Begnion soldiers in 1-E are as loyal to Jarod as ever, it would seem.

So are Ashnard's and Petrine's soldiers.

And while PoR features two major villains that approach cartoon quality (Petrine and Ashnard), they are the norm in RD. It isn't just Jarod, it's nearly every featured commader in the Begnion Occupation Army.

Well, obviously the generic bosses are all pretty evil, but that's par for the course in Fire Emblem. I mean, is Laverton really more of a caricature than Schaeffer who even says that he should have brought some babies?

And really, all the commanders say the same crap. "oh i hate sub humans, oh i will crush the daein crimea army before me etc".

Also, Valtome is willing to publicly execute Zelgius for disobedience.

Such executions would be the norm. Militaries have to maintain a chain of command. Indeed, it would be very strange if Valtome had pardoned Zelgius' disobedience.

If he had done so, isn't it 100% likely that Levail and a large portion of the Begnion Central Army would have mutinied? Zelgius is described as being a beloved General. Politicians don't get away with executing such Generals.

I couldn't really guess what the Begnion Central Army might have done. We're told that the Senators are revered as being chosen by Ashera, much as Sanaki is, and Zelgius surely earned his punishment by disobeying orders.

I made a distinction between executing civilians publicly, and executing civilians outside of the public eye.

From Wikipedia's entry on the Holocaust:

Opinions differ on how much the civilian population of Germany knew about the government conspiracy against the Jewish population. Most historians claim that the civilian population was unaware of the atrocities that were carried out, especially in the extermination camps, which were located outside of Germany in Nazi-occupied Europe. The historian Robert Gellately, however, claims that the government openly announced the conspiracy through the media, and that civilians were aware of its every aspect except for the use of gas chambers.[11] Significant historical evidence points to the idea that the vast majority of Holocaust victims, prior to their deportation to concentration camps, were either unaware of the fate that awaited them, or were in disbelief; they honestly believed that they were to be resettled.

You're not telling me how Amon Goth shooting prisoners for sport in occupied Poland is any different from Jarod killing civilians in occupied Daein. No doubt, the majority of Germans were unaware of such atrocities; just as the majority of people in Begnion were unaware of the atrocities in Daein.

There is always a limit to what those in power can get away with. Even the most heinous governments take efforts to hide civilian executions. And for obvious reasons. If civilians believe that they might be killed by their goverment, emmigration and rebellion become more attractive. Jarod, as the leader of an occupying force in a foreign nation, should be especially sensitive to this possibility.

Just as Amon Goth was "sensitive" to the plight of the Polish? Just as the communist leaders in eastern europe were sensitive to the worries of their citizens? When the communists were worried about emigration, they didn't try to be nicer. They built a wall, and shot anyone who tried to cross it. When Hungary rebelled, they sent in tanks.

Do you know how many Russian civilians the Germans killed in occupied Ukraine at the start of Operation Barbarossa? 3 million. You think they gave two shits about emigration? or rebellion? It's true that they didn't shoot them... but that's only because they didn't want to waste the bullets. You think the Nazis tried to hide it? Maybe from their own population, true, but not from other Russians.

You are correct; civilian deaths are not a light matter. They happen very rarely and under extreme circumstances. Generally (as in the Sharpeville Massacre), the situation emerges from an initially civil protest movement becoming hostile. The authorities attempt non-lethal responses to subdue the crowd. Eventually, and most unfortunately, individual soldiers/policemen act in contradiction to given orders and open fire with lethal force. Compare this to the civilian execution in 1-1. The crowd is nothing but civil.

Actually, they're getting in the way of chasing after wanted terrorists. And the soldiers have already been attacked. They're probably edgy.

The soldiers attempt no non-lethal means to intimidation or suppression.

I don't think tear gas and water cannons exist in Tellius, dear.

And really, so what? Sure, the events as seen in Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn are not completely accurate depictions of how medieval soldiers would deal with an unruly crowd. It's not a fucking documentary. But some inaccuracy does not make this into a cartoon or a caricature. A crowd of people piss off the soldiers and get in their way (and the soldiers know that failure isn't really an option when Jarod is commanding), and the soldiers attack them. That is not cartoonish.

And the commanding officer orders the execution and takes part in it himself. This makes light of civilian execution.

How so?

Antagonists don't have to be sympathetic or likeable, but they should have plausible objectives, and take rational actions in pursuit of those objectives. And if they do not act rationally, there should be realistic consequences.

Like Ashnard and Petrine who always act rationally... oh wait. It's true that they're eventually defeated, but so is Jarod.

I agree. But if Micaiah foresaw her own capture (as she seemingly did in 1-3), why not ... evade it?

I guess she wanted to let the others get away? It's not really exaplined very well; but it's not true that the whole Dawn Brigade could have overwhelmed even Jarod, let alone any soldiers he might have with him.

but was it too much to ask for a FE5 system where we retrieved our equipment?

I actually thought that was pretty annoying.

What. What. WHAT! ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? DID YOU SERIOUSLY JUST CROSS THAT LINE RADIANT DAWN? DID YOU SERIOUSLY JUST TRY TO SAY THAT ASHNARD IS ALMOST PREFERABLE TO BEGNION? DID YOU FOR A SECOND SUGGEST THAT ASHNARD DIDN'T TRY TO DESTROY CRIMEA AS A COUNTRY? SERIOUSLY? THAT JUST FUCKING HAPPENED? BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! BULLSHIT! A GIANT CROCK OF FUCKING BULLSHIT! WE NOT ONLY SAW CIVILIANS DRAGGED OFF TO WORK CAMPS TO BE BROKEN DOWN AND WORKED TO DEATH, BUT DAEIN SOLDIERS SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED THAT THEY WENT AROUND TO TOWNS, UNDER ORDERS, TO BREAK THE PEOPLE, EVEN THOUGH ASHNARD HAS CONTROL OF THE COUNTRY. ASHNARD WAS A MURDEROUS INSANE BASTARD WHO DIDN'T JUST TRY TO BREAK CRIMEA, BUT ALL NATIONS, WHO WANTED TO EXTERMINATE ANYONE WHO WAS WEAKER THAN HE WAS, OBSESSED SO MUCH WITH HIS DARWIN BELIEFS THAT IT DIDN'T ACCOUNT FOR THE PEOPLE! FUCK YOU JORGE YOU FUCKING WORTHLESS WASTE OF SPACE! HOW FUCKING DARE YOU THINK YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH THAT BULLSHIT?! BEGNION IS TREATING DAEIN AS A BUNCH OF SLAVES, I DO NOT DENY THIS, BUT TO TRY AND SAY THEY ARE WORSE THAN ASHNARD OR THAT HE NEVER TRIED TO DESTROY CRIMEA, OR INDEED ALL OF TELLIUS PEOPLE AND WHOLE, IS JUST SO FUCKING WRONG. NO GAME! NO YOU DO NOT GET TO PULL THAT SHIT!

Actually, many of the common people in Crimea were left untouched as we saw in Chapter 11. Ashnard never cared about killing civilians or anything, just about starting a war to release the dark god.

And it's doubtful that Jorge, a merchant, would know anything about the plan to unlock the dark god from the medallion and destroy the world, or ashnard's obsession with social darwinism or anything.

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I actually thought that was pretty annoying.

Actually, many of the common people in Crimea were left untouched as we saw in Chapter 11. Ashnard never cared about killing civilians or anything, just about starting a war to release the dark god.

And it's doubtful that Jorge, a merchant, would know anything about the plan to unlock the dark god from the medallion and destroy the world, or ashnard's obsession with social darwinism or anything.

Anouleth, Chapter 11

Makoya

There are no problems whatsoever. I've nothing to report, save the tedium of it all. The farther west we travel, the weaker the Crimean fighting spirit becomes. Each town displays less and less resistance--now they literally throw wide the gates at first sign of our approach! With duty as humdrum as this, I worry that my troops may become sloppy and lose their edge.

Black Knight

As a fellow warrior, I can sympathize with your plight.

Makoya

I thank you for your understanding.

Black Knight

This town was not scheduled for subjugation until much later...Tell me, why are you here now?

The army was still marching on towns, Soren mentions the camps later on.

Soren

There's no way for them to know that. They do know what their army did to the people of Crimea, however. If they fear they will be punished for that, I'm sure they decided to err on the side of caution.

Elincia

What? What happened to the Crimean people? Surely only the soldiers were imprisoned or killed...

Soren

...You truly have no idea how to rule a nation. Do you know what happens to a country that loses a war? Everything is destroyed. Homes, land, crops...everything. And the citizens... They're not even treated as human. Crimeans, especially those near the capital where Daein's presence is strongest, are treated worse than sub-hum...than laguz.

Elincia

That's... Why would they...That's horrible...

Soren

The people understand this, which is why they pay for protection in the form of taxes. For the royals and nobles who are charged with protecting the people, there is no greater sin than to be defeated in war.

It is the ultimate betrayal of the people's trust.

Elincia

Sniff... Ah, by the goddess, I am a fool......Sniff...

Ike

Soren! Enough!

Sorry to say, I maintain my call of bullshit. Though I will say that the Darwinist aspects of Ashnards personality were probably not known, not the whole plan with the medallion.

As we'll see later on in Part 2, the townsfolk talk about their villages having been destroyed and that the restoration wasn't simply around the capital.

Edited by Onmi

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Anouleth, this back and forth has diminishing returns. Allow me to close the matter (from my end) with the following:

  • The portrayal of the Begnion Occupation Army in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn was over-the-top. While there do exist some historical examples of military forces openly murdering civilians, these instances are rare and shocking. Even more rare are historical examples of a military officer executing its own soldiers for minor (or non-existent) misconduct openly and without a court-marshal. The fact that Begnion Occupation Army officers, from the commanding General on down, casually commits these acts and more, destroys the plausibility of the game world (for me, at least). I prefer a little bit of subtlety in my storytelling.
  • You correctly point out that Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance features some "just plain bad" antagonists. But some restraint in their portrayal is demonstrated - as contrasted with RD. Are Petrine and Ashnard my favorite kinds of villains? No. But their portrayal did not destroy the plausibility of the game world as Jarod did in RD (again, for me). This is a distinction of degree and not of kind.

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Black Knight

This town was not scheduled for subjugation until much later...Tell me, why are you here now?

And tell me, how many villagers do you see them execute? They throw a few into hard labour, true, but they're exceptions... and it's clear that the daein occupation is very different to the begnion occupation. Most of the villagers seem to be left alone, in fact.

Sorry to say, I maintain my call of bullshit. Though I will say that the Darwinist aspects of Ashnards personality were probably not known, not the whole plan with the medallion.

Really? Because we never actually see any of this slaughter that Soren warns about. Are we just supposed to take his word for it that the daein army is slaughtering everyone and throwing them into camps?

As we'll see later on in Part 2, the townsfolk talk about their villages having been destroyed and that the restoration wasn't simply around the capital.

And how many of those villagers had their homes destroyed by opportunistic bandits (who practically come out of the woodwork in Fire Emblemverse)? Tell me; is the destruction of a few villages really the same as what we see in Daein? You can rebuild villages, but you can't bring people back to life.

Anouleth, this back and forth has diminishing returns. Allow me to close the matter (from my end) with the following:

  • The portrayal of the Begnion Occupation Army in Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn was over-the-top. While there do exist some historical examples of military forces openly murdering civilians, these instances are rare and shocking.
The purpose of these scenes is to establish the occupation as being cruel and exploitative, and it does so. Perhaps not perfectly accurately, but it's a stretch to call it a cartoon when worse things have happened in the past. True, such things are rare. Evil people rarely are in a position to do stuff like that. But it would hardly be much of a game if there were no villains.

Even more rare are historical examples of a military officer executing its own soldiers for minor (or non-existent) misconduct openly and without a court-marshal.
Yes, I concede that Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn is not perfectly historically accurate.

The fact that Begnion Occupation Army officers, from the commanding General on down, casually commits these acts and more, destroys the plausibility of the game world (for me, at least). I prefer a little bit of subtlety in my storytelling.
I would have liked it to be more subtle too; but perhaps you should be more subtle in your criticism rather than declaring it to be a caricature and saying that the plausibility is "destroyed". Stretched, perhaps, but not destroyed.

You correctly point out that Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance features some "just plain bad" antagonists. But some restraint in their portrayal is demonstrated - as contrasted with RD. Are Petrine and Ashnard my favorite kinds of villains? No. But their portrayal did not destroy the plausibility of the game world as Jarod did in RD (again, for me). This is a distinction of degree and not of kind.

And it's your personal opinion. I don't really agree.

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And tell me, how many villagers do you see them execute? They throw a few into hard labour, true, but they're exceptions... and it's clear that the daein occupation is very different to the begnion occupation. Most of the villagers seem to be left alone, in fact.

Really? Because we never actually see any of this slaughter that Soren warns about. Are we just supposed to take his word for it that the daein army is slaughtering everyone and throwing them into camps?

And how many of those villagers had their homes destroyed by opportunistic bandits (who practically come out of the woodwork in Fire Emblemverse)? Tell me; is the destruction of a few villages really the same as what we see in Daein? You can rebuild villages, but you can't bring people back to life.

Anouleth here's something you need to grasp, you've been failing it for two pages now but hopefully if I put it bluntly it will sink in. When telling a story you do not explicitly need to show everything to the player, you know how I've been constantly pointing out "yes we get it, Begnion is evil"? It's because once a point is made, through words and through actions, the point doesn't need to be made again.

Point 1. The Black Knight mentions the subjugation of towns despite the fact that Daein has taken the capital and all but wiped out the army.

What do you think Subjugation is? you think the soldiers just ride into town and then have a few brewski's with the townsfolk? do you need to see a soldier steal someones candy before you go "Gasp! He's evil!"?

Point 2. After two civilians hand over information, Norris sends them off to the work camps.

Where do you think these work camps came from? do you think they popped up just for soldiers/these citizens? Do you explicitly need to be shown these camps? we're never shown any camps in Daein, and of the prisons we see, we only have Aimee, Kurth and Ilyana to serve as 'innocents' the only other prison contains Daein soldiers. Guess that must mean these magical work camps where the citizens are sent to have their spirits broken don't exist!

Point 3. Yes we are supposed to take Soren at his word, here's a RULE of storytelling for you, I'm going to put it in bold letters so you remember it, Everything told to the viewer is true, unless it is to be directly contradicted at a later date to draw contrast with beliefs/the truth. Example is early on in PoR when Shinon talks about the Laguz and calls them sub-human, and then they aren't anything like he describes. If all we have to go on is words, and nothing contradicts those words in the game? then the words are true. You can not use Chapter 11's village as an example because A. The Black Knight says they weren't scheduled to subjugate it for a while (due to it's far out location) and B. We do see two people hauled off to work camps (the ones that you seem to think must have magically sprung out of the ground) when they sold out Ike and Co.

You can debate "Well maybe they don't exist because we don't see it" or "Maybe their villages were destroyed by bandits" but then we have Occams razor. What's the simplest explanation? What we have been told is the truth, because nothing contradicts that truth. You can try to argue it, you can propose a billion other scenarios where it's all tea and biscuits, but the fact of the matter is nothing in the game supports that and it is nothing more than self-delusion and self-justification. See the difference between my argument (Directly show evidence from the script itself) and your counter (Claiming that just because we don't physically see it, it doesn't happen) is mine is supported by the narrative and text. Yours isn't. But hey if you're so self-deluded that you're going to deny the script itself, and violate the laws of narrative themselves, we aren't going to get anywhere.

The first thing I had to accept, 6 years ago when I first took steps to becoming a writer was "I must be able to admit that there is a flaw" and for the past 6 years I have refined that talent, I can now spot the flaws in my own writing, I can tell what is garbage and what is not. I study this professionally, for 3 years it's been at university, I've studied under actual writers, I've been lectured by actual editors, and these rules have been hammered into my head for those 3 years. Your thought process violates those rules, it is wrong. I rarely flat out state to a person "You're wrong" usually it's just "Well that's your opinion"

No Anouleth, this is not your opinion. This is wrong. Period. If you want to seriously continue this discussion, use proof, use the script as source, don't come at me with "Oh but we aren't SHOWN" because that shit does not fly here. I will no longer be responding to posts with this kind of grade school level of argumenting.

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itt - onmi becomes general banzai

while to some degree i do agree with your criticisms of this plot, you are seriously overreacting here. Discussion is discussion, for the love of god calm down

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I'm almost serious when I say that your rant reminds me of Banzai. A tl;dr version of that paragraph-long rant could be "I'm an english major and i'm good at spotting flaws" which I can respect, to a certain degree; this is the rant that made Banzai famous for the third time (the first time was for his balls to say to the RD tier list that their criteria was wrong after like 60 pages of discussion).

at least it's not an 11,000-word essay on the plot holes, this time it's entertaining

Edited by Camtech

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I'm almost serious when I say that your rant reminds me of Banzai. A tl;dr version of that paragraph-long rant could be "I'm an english major and i'm good at spotting flaws" which I can respect, to a certain degree; this is the rant that made Banzai famous for the third time (the first time was for his balls to say to the RD tier list that their criteria was wrong after like 60 pages of discussion).

at least it's not an 11,000-word essay on the plot holes, this time it's entertaining

Well I was very seriously trying to hold that back, also I'm not an english major I'm a professional writing major The tl;dr was more "Don't counter the script with speculation because the script is god and these are rules of narrative. I wasn't actually trying to lord my status over anyone just saying I'm not making up 'Laws of Narrative' to try and win an argument.

Still that was harsh comparing me to Banzai, I mean... dude. I have feelings ya know.

EDIT: Though at least your entertained, I've fulfilled one criteria of this thread.

Edited by Onmi

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Alright. I'm sorry.

just... we get it already. you're a english writing major who's used to spotting flaws in writing; enough is enough. on the other hand, this fact alone does not make you infallible; other people can come up with equally valid criticisms without that schooling.

I'm gonna restate that I do agree with you to some degree, but the argument is getting a bit ridiculous

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Alright. I'm sorry.

just... we get it already. you're a english writing major who's used to spotting flaws in writing; enough is enough. on the other hand, this fact alone does not make you infallible; other people can come up with equally valid criticisms without that schooling.

I'm gonna restate that I do agree with you to some degree, but the argument is getting a bit ridiculous

Certainly doesn't make me infallible, I've made quite a few mistakes.

Anyway I'm going to go work on 1-4 now. Lets see how many resets Meg costs me.

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Anouleth here's something you need to grasp, you've been failing it for two pages now but hopefully if I put it bluntly it will sink in. When telling a story you do not explicitly need to show everything to the player, you know how I've been constantly pointing out "yes we get it, Begnion is evil"? It's because once a point is made, through words and through actions, the point doesn't need to be made again.

Point 1. The Black Knight mentions the subjugation of towns despite the fact that Daein has taken the capital and all but wiped out the army.

What do you think Subjugation is? you think the soldiers just ride into town and then have a few brewski's with the townsfolk? do you need to see a soldier steal someones candy before you go "Gasp! He's evil!"?

Subjugate means to forcibly impose obedience. But most of the people of Crimea are already obedient and don't seem to do much in the way of resisting.

It's true that storytelling where the same point is hammered over and over again is bad. But equally bad is lazy storytelling where we're merely told that the Daeins are evil and are destroying the country but never actually see it.

Point 2. After two civilians hand over information, Norris sends them off to the work camps.

What camps? Do we ever see any camps? Are camps ever mentioned? No, instead he tells his soldiers to find them some hard labour. i.e. not in a camp, or he would have said, "take them to a camp".

"Get these two worms out of here. Find the hardest physical labor in this town and get these fools started."

He says 'in this town'. As in, there is no camp. In fact, this is evidence that occurences like this are rare; if they were not rare, there would be camps to put them in! But because cases like this are rare, they just have to find whatever hard physical labor is nearby.

Where do you think these work camps came from? do you think they popped up just for soldiers/these citizens? Do you explicitly need to be shown these camps? we're never shown any camps in Daein, and of the prisons we see, we only have Aimee, Kurth and Ilyana to serve as 'innocents' the only other prison contains Daein soldiers. Guess that must mean these magical work camps where the citizens are sent to have their spirits broken don't exist!

Except that we DO see the camp in Daein; in fact, the entirety of 1-7 is you going into a prisoner camp to break people out of there!

Point 3. Yes we are supposed to take Soren at his word, here's a RULE of storytelling for you, I'm going to put it in bold letters so you remember it, Everything told to the viewer is true, unless it is to be directly contradicted at a later date to draw contrast with beliefs/the truth.

Really?

You can debate "Well maybe they don't exist because we don't see it" or "Maybe their villages were destroyed by bandits" but then we have Occams razor. What's the simplest explanation? What we have been told is the truth, because nothing contradicts that truth.

Well, we're also told by a villager in Chapter 11:

"Yeah, I know. And honestly? That doesn't really affect us common folk, ya know? The truth is, we don't care who sitson the throne. To us, they're all just faceless beings who rule from on high. If they tried to raise taxes or something, you better believe we'd protest, but

otherwise...I mean, take the king of Daein. He's just another man, right? If we keep working, he can keep living the high life. So it's not like he's going to treat us poorly or anything. As long as we can live our lives and have a little happiness,we aren't going to[nl]

worry about it all too much. Oh, but if we were invaded by Gallia, well, that's a different story altogether. If our country were overrun by those savage beasts, who knows what could happen? Now THAT scares me!"

So who is right? The villager, or Soren? Because Soren says "oh no everyone will surely die", and the villager says "no they'll let us live". It seems to me, that this is a contradiction; and there's remarkably little evidence for either side. After all, we don't get a scene in Chapter 24 where they see devastated villages in Crimea. The village we see in Chapter 11 seems intact, but the army only just reached it.

And yes, it's true that in the fighting, villages were probably destroyed. However, we're told (and this apparently makes it incontrovertable fact) that Begnion is trying to wipe out Daein as a country, obliterate it entirely. That seems to me to be an order of magnitude worse than what Ashnard did to the people of Daein, and it would indeed seem to justify Jorge's words, when he says that the actions of Begnion almost make him wish for the return of the Mad King, which was what this was all about in the first place.

Moreover, there are several points where you refuse to believe Micaiah's words. Micaiah tells us that she can't choose what she sees through foresight. But you disagree. Certainly, it's very lucky that she usually sees stuff that's relevant to her situation, but why would she lie?

You can try to argue it, you can propose a billion other scenarios where it's all tea and biscuits, but the fact of the matter is nothing in the game supports that and it is nothing more than self-delusion and self-justification. See the difference between my argument (Directly show evidence from the script itself) and your counter (Claiming that just because we don't physically see it, it doesn't happen) is mine is supported by the narrative and text. Yours isn't. But hey if you're so self-deluded that you're going to deny the script itself, and violate the laws of narrative themselves, we aren't going to get anywhere.

The first thing I had to accept, 6 years ago when I first took steps to becoming a writer was "I must be able to admit that there is a flaw" and for the past 6 years I have refined that talent, I can now spot the flaws in my own writing, I can tell what is garbage and what is not. I study this professionally, for 3 years it's been at university, I've studied under actual writers, I've been lectured by actual editors, and these rules have been hammered into my head for those 3 years. Your thought process violates those rules, it is wrong. I rarely flat out state to a person "You're wrong" usually it's just "Well that's your opinion"

No Anouleth, this is not your opinion. This is wrong. Period. If you want to seriously continue this discussion, use proof, use the script as source, don't come at me with "Oh but we aren't SHOWN" because that shit does not fly here. I will no longer be responding to posts with this kind of grade school level of argumenting.

blah blah blah i'm so great you are the suck blah blah

also I think that you need to chill out

think of your blood pressure

Edited by Anouleth

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I for one find this to be pretty funny, if you don't nobody is making you stay here.

Also i just checked chapter 24

Visit the northern village

Woman

Oh, thank the goddess! The Crimean army has arrived. We who have suffered so much under Daein's rule will finally be free! We can put our faith in that, can't we? If there's anything we can do to help, we'll do it. Please, rescue our beloved Crimea.

Edited by Tangerine

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@ Eail's edited content: Enough is enough. If you can't participate in a discussion without getting overly aggressive or insulting the users involved, then it doesn't belong on this forum. Take it to PM if you want to continue with that.

Surely if someone is going to make a thread for the purpose of criticizing a piece of work, they should be prepared to be criticized themselves. He doesn't need someone to defend him that way.

That goes for you as well, Onmi. Chill out. It's not worth getting worked up over, it is certainly not Anouleth's intent.

Edited by Tangerine

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Surely if someone is going to make a thread for the purpose of criticizing a piece of work, they should be prepared to be criticized themselves. He doesn't need someone to defend him that way.

And if someone is going to criticize someone's criticism, they should be prepared to be criticized themselves, should they not? He doesn't need someone to defend him that way.

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Yeah, calling someone a Fuckface is great constructive criticism. I mean Anouleth is basically doing nothing different than that right, I should treat both situations the same.

I can tell this thread is great and I haven't read any posts before Tangerine's

It's not that good, I got here too early. Sorry :P:.

Edited by Madam Red

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