Rate the Unit, Day 22: Jill

[Lord Raven]

But you only responded to my point in a speedrun perspective. Jill and Marcia can destroy maps in the second half of the game a couple turns quicker because of flight, but you still have other units who can destroy the map- they'll just take a couple turns longer. No one can destroy maps like Titania can in the first half of the game- the harder half of the game, IMO. And I think Titania's ability to do that is more valuable than Jill/Marcia's contributions.

first thirds*

From a speedrun perspective, Marcia/Jill are valued for obvious reasons. From efficiency, they're still very valued for obvious reasons. For a slower playthrough, they give you the ability to be flexible by rescue dropping or giving you the ability to end the map whenever the hell you want, because they can reach things faster and have a lot of versatility. The point is that playstyle doesn't matter, and 90% of the time a unit who performs very well on a higher efficiency playthrough is still very good in a lower efficiency playthrough, where the gaps between units becomes very small.

Also, we can't just assume we're using the best units in the game and nobody else every playthrough. Just because Marcia/Jill make the best use of the BEXP doesn't mean dumping 1000 BEXP into them is not a cost- it still is. Just not as much of one as say, dumping it into Mia.

I see costs as working like this; if the output is incredibly good and is quite a bit better than the alternative, then it shouldn't penalize the unit very much at all. In this case, I don't see much of a reason why you should give it to other units unless you're in a less efficient/more casual-esque playthrough, in which case, as I said before, the gap between units narrows.

Vergil, netting a faster and more efficient clear in many cases only saves you turns/time. It doesn't make the chapter actually easier. Say the Shiharam chapter- Sure Jill can fly over and kill Shiharam 3-4 turns earlier than if you just lead your Pallies around the mountain- but the chapter doesn't become any more difficult. Remove Titania from earlygame, and those chapters become markedly more difficult. Maybe this is where we differ in opinions. I rate by who makes the game easier, not who takes lesser turns.

I've stated my case. This argument allows for a very narrow gap between units, which is not at that point determining the quality of a unit. It creates a great deal of uncertainty to say "makes it easier" as opposed to "makes it faster," because no matter what units you use you can clear the game quite easily. This isn't FE12, where "makes it doable" is a great factor; we have to supply a deal of rigidity that allows us to be more certain and, therefore, widen the gaps between units in rankings.

Remove Marcia/Jill from the mid/late game and the chapters become more difficult simply because you have to go through more sets of reinforcements due to less flying ability. You have to take more sleep staff shots and more of your units are in range of siege tomes at once, and they can't fly over their obstacles. It's doable, definitely, but flying makes the game *that* much easier.

[dondon151]

But you only responded to my point in a speedrun perspective. Jill and Marcia can destroy maps in the second half of the game a couple turns quicker because of flight, but you still have other units who can destroy the map- they'll just take a couple turns longer. No one can destroy maps like Titania can in the first half of the game- the harder half of the game, IMO. And I think Titania's ability to do that is more valuable than Jill/Marcia's contributions.

please learn to develop some ability of inference. i was not implying that marcia is good in a speedrun and should be above titania; i was implying that marcia has the ability to completely dominate the game and make the contributions of other units trivial, hence she is better than titania.

Also, we can't just assume we're using the best units in the game and nobody else every playthrough. Just because Marcia/Jill make the best use of the BEXP doesn't mean dumping 1000 BEXP into them is not a cost- it still is. Just not as much of one as say, dumping it into Mia.

if you could buy a gourmet dinner with $40 or buy shit in a can for $40, i think you'd go with the gourmet dinner. just maybe.

Vergil, netting a faster and more efficient clear in many cases only saves you turns/time. It doesn't make the chapter actually easier. Say the Shiharam chapter- Sure Jill can fly over and kill Shiharam 3-4 turns earlier than if you just lead your Pallies around the mountain- but the chapter doesn't become any more difficult. Remove Titania from earlygame, and those chapters become markedly more difficult. Maybe this is where we differ in opinions. I rate by who makes the game easier, not who takes lesser turns.

i could argue that the game is still trivially easy without titania early on despite taking a bunch more turns because i feel that it is easy, hence your argument is invalid. from a more technical standpoint, titania's dominance ends at chapter 8 when the base becomes available.

[BBM]

Rating units by how much easier the game is made rather than how many turns they save is uncertain. That's why I'm arguing it in a rating topic, where the metric doesn't need to be as clear-cut as in a tier list or something.

I also prefer killing everything I can in the BEXP turn limit and getting all the chests and items. It feels more complete than just rushing to the objective, and considering how good your units are, not actually very much more difficult. The Sleep Staffers, even if you don't have Restore, only disable one unit. You have more mounted units who have good combat and durability than the enemy has Sleep Staff uses. I suppose you would define this is casual play though.

And also, even when playing for turns, simply using the best units in the game every time is boring. I like bringing along different units every time, and I like giving them the resources they need to be good, and see the impact it makes. And if I just dumped the same amount of exp into Marcia/Jill and used the same tactics with them as I would normally, I'm really not playing the game any differently, and my experiment is moot, and the game loses most its replay value. To me, anyways.

Edited April 20, 2012 by BigBangMeteor

[dondon151]

blah blah blah i prefer, blah blah blah boring to me

ok that's nice. how does that tell me titania > marcia and jill?

[BBM]

ok that's nice. how does that tell me titania > marcia and jill?

I don't think you understand my point. You probably think that I don't understand yours. Maybe I don't. So this conversation doesn't have much value left to it.

[Esaka]

DAT SPEED!

It sucks.

When everyone doubles, even freaking Ilyana, you know you have probs.

But she gets better once enemies speed stagnates and she just keeps getting better.

8.5/10

Because lolflight

[aku chi]

well, no, because you're just going to throw around your "optimal resource bundle" jargon and pretend like you understand exactly how much better titania is than jill because you're an economics major.

Not needed in this case. Give Titania, Marcia, and Jill the exact same set of resources and Titania will handily contribute more towards completing the game than Marcia and Jill no matter the resource bundle.

what does the tier list topic have anything to do with this argument? do you arbitrarily lose all capacity to understand arguments outside of that topic?

No, but it would be better for tier-related debates to remain in one topic "for the sake of future generations".

i think my rhetorical argument is pretty clear, and i really can't be bothered to go on a chapter by chapter basis because it's impossible to convince you if i assert one thing and you just say otherwise.

I'm not sure if that statement reflects more negatively on you or me. One would hope that debates are, in part, truth-finding excercises. And I've certainly been convinced of FE9 tier-related matters in the past.

like, just writing chapters off as "flying important" and "flying irrelevant" doesn't exactly reveal how much better flying is than being grounded.

Like, that's what a debate is for: to establish facts and strive towards a common understanding. At least, that's what productive debates are for.

Chapters where any sort of mounted unit outclasses Titania: every chapter after Chapter 16 or 17

How can Titania be outclassed by herself?

Chapter where Titania starts to not be the best/most useful/flexible unit on the map: one chapter after you recruit Marcia

Titania has a strong case of being the most valuable unit in chapters 10 and 11. And why don't you hold some other units to this ridiculous standard of being hands-down, the best unit available in 7+ chapters? Only Titania rises up to that challenge. Her and Reyson, perhaps.

[Lord Raven]

How can Titania be outclassed by herself?

She's not, what the hell are you talking about?

Titania has a strong case of being the most valuable unit in chapters 10 and 11. And why don't you hold some other units to this ridiculous standard of being hands-down, the best unit available in 7+ chapters? Only Titania rises up to that challenge. Her and Reyson, perhaps.

Marcia/Jill rise to that standard after she becomes available, so...

[aku chi]

Chapters where any sort of mounted unit outclasses Titania: every chapter after Chapter 16 or 17

How can Titania be outclassed by herself?

She's not, what the hell are you talking about?

Premise: "Any sort of mounted unit outclasses Titania."

Premise: Titania is a mounted unit.

Conclusion: Titania outclasses Titania.

Marcia/Jill rise to that standard after she becomes available, so...

Concerning chapters where Marcia or Jill are, hands down, the most valuable units:

Marcia has C12. Maybe C15, C17-2, and C17-4.

Jill has maybe C17-1, C25, and C28 (all arguable).

That doesn't look like 7+ chapters to me.

[Lord Raven]

i'm a pretty powerful pedant, i'm also so arrogant i don't take raven seriously at all so raven is posting halfassed responses and i'm being condescending about my halfassed responses while i'm at it

oh cool

Concerning chapters where Marcia or Jill are, hands down, the most valuable units:

Marcia has C12. Maybe C15, C17-2, and C17-4.

Jill has maybe C17-1, C25, and C28 (all arguable).

That doesn't look like 7+ chapters to me.

except marcia+jill will have BEXPdump on them and therefore will have the best stats of everyone, thats 'most valuable' on top of flying utility

[aku chi]

i'm a pretty powerful pedant, i'm also so arrogant i don't take raven seriously at all so raven is posting halfassed responses and i'm being condescending about my halfassed responses while i'm at it

I legitimately laughed out loud.

except marcia+jill will have BEXPdump on them and therefore will have the best stats of everyone, thats 'most valuable' on top of flying utility

Getting good stats after a BEXPdump is not a trait unique to Marcia and Jill. In fact, most combat units can get great stats after a BEXPdump. The difference is, some units have good stats before a BEXPdump. In fact, I think we were just talking about such a unit. What was her name...? Oh, that's right: Titania.

[Lord Raven]

Titania can't fly though, she has nothing aside from good bases to set herself from the other paladins- the other paladins will have surpassed her by chapter 16 or 17, and marcia/jill will have far surpassed her. she is obsoleted, in other words she's not the best nor is she unique any longer.

[aku chi]

Titania can't fly though, she has nothing aside from good bases to set herself from the other paladins- the other paladins will have surpassed her by chapter 16 or 17, and marcia/jill will have far surpassed her. she is obsoleted, in other words she's not the best nor is she unique any longer.

I haven't argued to the contrary (though I do take exception to the claim that Marcia "will have far surpassed" Titania by chapter 17). My point is: being uniquely the best unit is not a common thing to be. Titania clearly satisfies that criteria for at least 7 meaningful chapters. The only other unit that might be able to make as strong a claim is Reyson (who is completely absent for more than half the game). Marcia can claim that she is uniquely the best unit in 1-4 chapters, and Jill can claim that she is uniquely the best unit in 0-4 chapters. In all other chapters, they compete with each other, Reyson, Tanith, Haar, the Paladins, occasionally sieging Sages and Mist/Elincia - and often lose outright. Granted, Titania faces less competition in her earlier chapters, but considering how handily she dominates, I don't see how this can be held against her. It's not like Edward in RD's 1-P, where he is merely the best of a few poor options. Titania is ORKOing just about everything with near invincibility and the best movement in the game. None of the other units in these early chapters comes close.

[Anouleth]

It would be interesting to actually see playthroughs that didn't use Titania or Marcia/Jill to see what their impact on turncount was.

ok "interesting" was probably a huuuuuge exaggeration

Edited April 21, 2012 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

I think you mean "long".

[aku chi]

It would be interesting to actually see playthroughs that didn't use Titania or Marcia/Jill to see what their impact on turncount was.

Marcia and Jill are two seperate units. But I'll go out on a limb and say that an efficient playthrough without Titania would still take more turns than an efficient playthrough without Marcia and Jill. On the other hand, I'm not sure how fair that would be to Marcia and Jill, because a turn saved in C1 is presumably less valuable than a turn saved in C25.

[The_Purple_Knight]

I rate by who makes the game easier, not who takes lesser turns.

Yes this is the center of every argument I ever had with an LTC player . I've just never been able to articulate it . I rate by the same criteria .

[Sunwoo]

It would be interesting to actually see playthroughs that didn't use Titania or Marcia/Jill to see what their impact on turncount was.

I've done playthroughs without Titania and Jill just for the heck of it. Of course, I wasn't playing for LTC anyway, so ...

[Loki Laufeyson]

I've done playthroughs without Titania and Jill just for the heck of it. Of course, I wasn't playing for LTC anyway, so ...

Same here. They werent that low in turns but hey, its doable and kinda fun sometimes.

[Refa]

An ike solo is also doable.

I dont get what your point is tbh, noone's saying the game would suddenly become impossible to beat without titania and jill/marcia.

Edited April 21, 2012 by Refa

[Camus The Dark Knight]

7/10

Jill is probably the best flyer when used, but Haar can accomplish what Jill can without much trouble on easier difficulties. Her score for me comes from maniac where she will wreck the overpowered enemies if given a forged axe, prior to promotion things can be a little rough, but she isn't too bad even before then (Unlike garbage units like Mist and Rolf, in my opinion anyway).

An ike solo is also doable.

I dont get what your point is tbh, noone's saying the game would suddenly become impossible to beat without titania and jill/marcia.

I did a Titania solo on normal (Had to use the royal Laguz for Ashnard obviously) as well as an Ike solo on normal as well. Although I think Jill/Marcia is mandatory for maniac mode. At least if you want to get everything, if you don't care about villages and stuff then even then you could probably do it.

[Eail]

IMO Jill is one of, if not the best unit in this game. Flying tank of death and promotes to get axes.

10/10

[Espinosa]

It would be interesting to actually see playthroughs that didn't use Titania or Marcia/Jill to see what their impact on turncount was.

ok "interesting" was probably a huuuuuge exaggeration

It's not too interesting when one unit solos the entire game, either. We can't forget about characters being self-sufficient in tier list discussions and whatnot, but I doubt people actually play every run that way.

[marcus90]

Jill: Feed her Bonus Exp, annhialate your zombie foes!

9/10

[Snowy_One]

It would be interesting to actually see playthroughs that didn't use Titania or Marcia/Jill to see what their impact on turncount was.

ok "interesting" was probably a huuuuuge exaggeration

You would see a higher turncount in the earlier chapters as you have to do without Titania but probably after 5 or 6 you would start to see your units preforming better than they otherwise would have done and, maybe, shave a turn or two off.