Rate the Unit, Day 22: Jill

[Lord Raven]

no way is kieran better than jill

jill and marcia both jockey for their positions but i personally think they're better than titania in this game

Oh wow, I honestly didn't want to spew that in fear of a severe backlash- considering all the people who do hop on Titania like no other- but I agree with this heavily. I found no need for titania at some point in the game, because even if she only goes to "Average" towards the end, there is literally nothing special she does after the first 15 or 16 chapters. Jill and Marcia remain unique in any given playthrough, where Titania becomes outclassed and borderline obsolete halfway in.

Next to tits, Kieran is the most overrated unit in FE9.

Also, Jill gets a 9.5/10 because I am apart of the Jill = Marcia boat.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Mercenary Vergil

[Caliban of Sycorax]

I still vouch for Jill > Marcia. But hey.

Winged Titania. If I could give her 11/10 (+1 bias yay) I would.

Also, not gonna make arguments because I've argued Jill enough for a while. Unless I have to...

But 10/10 will have to do

Edited April 20, 2012 by Laurence Olivier

[Refa]

10/10 almost as good as Marcia and destroys the game when you pump bexp into her.

[Frosty]

Actually; I'd use the crazy axe people altogether... Touche?

Now, Jill is simply Tits on Wings; and that means she's ridiculous down from the start up to finish!

If only weren't for those meh-ish bases...

9.5

[BBM]

Oh wow, I honestly didn't want to spew that in fear of a severe backlash- considering all the people who do hop on Titania like no other- but I agree with this heavily. I found no need for titania at some point in the game, because even if she only goes to "Average" towards the end, there is literally nothing special she does after the first 15 or 16 chapters. Jill and Marcia remain unique in any given playthrough, where Titania becomes outclassed and borderline obsolete halfway in.

Next to tits, Kieran is the most overrated unit in FE9.

Also, Jill gets a 9.5/10 because I am apart of the Jill = Marcia boat.

It's not a question of who's unique. Fa is unique. IIRC dondon gave her a 0, and her average score couldn't have been more than a couple points higher. It's a question of who helps you beat the game more. Titania, like I said, is your best unit in the hardest portion of the game, a portion of the game where neither Jill nor Marcia even exist. And she's still better than them for at least 5 chapters after Jill comes in. There is no need for Titania lategame, yeah. But there is never a need for both Jill and Marcia. 2 flying units is obviously better than 1, but most jobs that need to be done by a flying unit can be done by just one of them.

And seriously, we give everyone dumps and dumps of BEXP and forges early-mid game to help them get going, we can't give Titania a +Mt forge lategame to help her out?

[Refa]

And seriously, we give everyone dumps and dumps of BEXP and forges early-mid game to help them get going, we can't give Titania a +Mt forge lategame to help her out?

I don't believe anyone has said otherwise.

[aku chi]

Oh wow, I honestly didn't want to spew that in fear of a severe backlash- considering all the people who do hop on Titania like no other- but I agree with this heavily. I found no need for titania at some point in the game, because even if she only goes to "Average" towards the end, there is literally nothing special she does after the first 15 or 16 chapters. Jill and Marcia remain unique in any given playthrough, where Titania becomes outclassed and borderline obsolete halfway in.

Indeed, there is nothing uniquely special that Titania "does after the first 15 or 16 chapters". And guess what? There's nothing that Jill does in the first 12 chapters. And there's similarly nothing "special" that Jill does in over half of her remaining chapters. You seem to be holding Titania to a higher standard than Jill or Marcia. Even when you ignore the fact that Titania's optimal resource bundle is just about zero and and Marcia's optimal resource bundle is huge, Titania still contributes more towards completing the game. Feel free to argue it in the tier list thread. I don't think any cogent case can be made for Titania < any other unit in FE9.

[Colonel M]

And there's similarly nothing "special" that Jill does in over half of her remaining chapters.

Umm... flying doesn't count as "special"?

we can't give Titania a +Mt forge lategame to help her out?

The only one who's ever stingy about it is the person who hates Titania or is pungent with resources.

Which leaves Snowy... and possibly smash. Though I think even smash would give her a forge late-game.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Colonel M

[Hawk King]

From the time of Jill's recruitment to the end of the game, Jill>Titania. In fact there are a couple characters you can say this about...

However, Titania's cotributions up to Chapter 11 make her the best in the game.

PROS:

-flying

-great growths

-great stats

CONS:

-needs Bexp because of average bases

-doesnt join in Chapter 1

Jill is a top 2 unit for her entire existence as long as she gets a decent Bexp dump. Give it to her! Only Marcia can do what she can do.

9.5/10 - Slight availability lead gives Marcia the edge over Jill. Otherwise they are equals.

Edited April 20, 2012 by Hawk King

[aku chi]

Umm... flying doesn't count as "special"?

It does, in those chapters where flying matters. Those are fewer than 50% of Jill's chapters. Titania can perform just as well as Jill in the remainder of those chapters where flying doesn't matter (with the possible exception of lategame chapter like 26, 27, and Endgame where Jill's superior stat potential becomes relevant).

[MacLovin]

Everyone who rated Jill under 8.5 has got to be a troll....

Seriously, those growths, class, and the fact that this is Fixed Mode

[Refa]

CONS:

-needs Bexp because of average bases

-doesnt join in Chapter 1

Neither of these are actual CONs.

[aku chi]

Neither of these are actual CONs.

How so? The perfect unit would have full availability and require zero resources. Like Titania. But Titania doesn't fly, so she too is imperfect.

[PuffPuff]

Too busy fapping to Gamble being useful and not realizing mounted units bend this game further than in half.

Metal King Slime and BigBangMeteor already pointed out in the Zihark topic that Gamble is worthless.

-----

Ah..yes. xD

Jill Sandwich time.

Support her with Mist and give her a forged weapon at the start of her joining time and she'll be good to go for the rest of the game as she will get stronger by the time your first forged weapon is gone. Mehish Luck and ok Res are her only flaws. But she's still a great unit. Especially with Savior.

NM

9/10

HM

8.5/10

Edited April 20, 2012 by リンダ

[PKL]

It does, in those chapters where flying matters.  Those are fewer than 50% of Jill's chapters.  Titania can perform just as well as Jill in the remainder of those chapters where flying doesn't matter (with the <i>possible </i>exception of lategame chapter like 26, 27, and Endgame where Jill's superior stat potential becomes relevant).

Let's see, flight is important in: Chapter 13 (getting the chests with the chest keys and bypassing some enemies with flight. Titania takes longer to get the chests), Chapter 15 (titania takes a loooooong time reaching muarim. Jill doesnt afraid of nothin and 2 turns it), Chapter 17-1 (bypassing enemy lines yet again to reach the north faster), Chapter 17-2 (lol swamp. Jill once again doesnt afraid of nothin), Chapter 17-4 (hand axe the adept halberdier then oliver in EP2. GG), Chapter 19 (an overleveled jill can 2 turn it while titania is starting to struggle), Chapter 20 (fly over mountain, kill her own father = profit?), Chapter 21 (pure water and fly over the pond to drop ike), Chapter 23 (fly over everything and has enough durability with a full guard to be able to withstand enemies while carrying Ike), Chapter 24 (Hint: boots fliers are stupid in this map), Chapter 25 (movement penalty for tits. Jill doesnt afraid of anything and ORKOs almost everything with forges unlike marcia and titania), Chapter 26 (better durability to rescue drop ike safely than titania or marcia), Chapter 28 (fly over mountain, drop resolve wrath ike and watch him destroy things apart) and endgame (see chapter 28). Thats far from 50% of her chapters. Flight is ridiculous in most chapters and still useful in those where it isnt ridiculous.

[dondon151]

when i think of marcia and jill in FE9, i think about my FE6 speedrun where i RNG abuse str level ups on thany and she caps str at like 12/7. except that you don't have to RNG abuse in this game to get a flying goddess.

and the thing is, FE6 marcus is absolutely ridiculous in that game on NM. he ORKOs basically everything at least up until chapter 8 and probably after that as well. but after chapter 8, a thany solo is so much better that marcus almost never sees use again. this is basically FE9 in a nutshell; just replace marcus with titania and thany with marcia or jill.

so i am perfectly convinced that marcia and jill are both "better" than titania. they break this game apart like in a speedrun except you don't even have to rely on absurd luck to get them there. probably the best part is that you can actually use both.

Edited April 20, 2012 by dondon151

[aku chi]

Let's see, flight is important in: Chapter 13 (getting the chests with the chest keys and bypassing some enemies with flight. Titania takes longer to get the chests), Chapter 15 (titania takes a loooooong time reaching muarim. Jill doesnt afraid of nothin and 2 turns it), Chapter 17-1 (bypassing enemy lines yet again to reach the north faster), Chapter 17-2 (lol swamp. Jill once again doesnt afraid of nothin), Chapter 17-4 (hand axe the adept halberdier then oliver in EP2. GG), Chapter 19 (an overleveled jill can 2 turn it while titania is starting to struggle), Chapter 20 (fly over mountain, kill her own father = profit?), Chapter 21 (pure water and fly over the pond to drop ike), Chapter 23 (fly over everything and has enough durability with a full guard to be able to withstand enemies while carrying Ike), Chapter 24 (Hint: boots fliers are stupid in this map), Chapter 25 (movement penalty for tits. Jill doesnt afraid of anything and ORKOs almost everything with forges unlike marcia and titania), Chapter 26 (better durability to rescue drop ike safely than titania or marcia), Chapter 28 (fly over mountain, drop resolve wrath ike and watch him destroy things apart) and endgame (see chapter 28). Thats far from 50% of her chapters. Flight is ridiculous in most chapters and still useful in those where it isnt ridiculous.

C13: Flight is theoretically slightly important, but claiming that Jill is more valuable than Titania here is laughable.

C14: Flight not important to clear.

C15: Flight important.

C16: Flight irrelevant.

C17-1: Flight slightly important.

C17-2: Flight important.

C17-3: Irrelevant.

C17-4: Flight important.

C18: Flight generally not important.

C19: Flight irrelevant to clear.

C20: Flight important.

C21: Flight important.

C22: Flight irrelevant.

C23: Flight slightly important.

C24: Flight generally irrelvant to clear.

C25: Flight super important.

C26: Flight irrelevant.

C27: Flight irrelevant.

C28: Flight important.

Endgame: Flight generally irrelevant to clear.

Flight is at least slightly important in ~9-10/20 of Jill's chapters. Hence <50%. But it's close, so I'll concede to flight being important in about half of Jill's chapters.

so i am perfectly convinced that marcia and jill are both "better" than titania. they break this game apart like in a speedrun except you don't even have to rely on absurd luck to get them there. probably the best part is that you can actually use both.

Convince me by posting an argument in the tier list topic.

[Snowy_One]

What the heck?

NO ARGUING AGAINST ANYONE WHO ISN'T ME IN THESE TOPICS!

Jeez! Do you realize how improper that is?

[Refa]

How so? The perfect unit would have full availability and require zero resources. Like Titania. But Titania doesn't fly, so she too is imperfect.

OK, the "doesn't join in chapter 1" complaint is silly. I know it's for a comparison to Titania, but it doesn't work on that level either. Joining at Chapter 1 doesn't have any intrinsic value in itself. A better argument would be saying that Titania's early game contributions saves more turns than Jill/Marcia. But w/e on this one, I'm just being pedantic.

And needs a lot of BEXP to function is silly because that's what makes them your best units. They are literally the best source of that BEXP to begin with, why is this a downside? Who are they taking BEXP from? People who can't use it as competently as them? It's as much of a cost as Celice getting all of his stuff dumped on to him by Sigurd, which is to say, high cost for best returns. I think we should put more value on the returns than complaining about how Jill is stealing BEXP from Mia or someone.

A resource exists to be used, and we shouldn't penalize the units that make the best use of it.

Like you keep bitching about flight and where/when it's not important but, the point is besides an arrow weakness (which isn't really that bad lol 2x damage multiplier), there's no advantage Titania has over a BEXPed Marcia/Jill. I mean sure, better weapon ranks, but they can ORKO with forged weapons of lower weapon ranks so even that's not of much consequence. Also, those arm scrolls exist for a reason just in case you do need some Silver Forges (although chances are they'll be able to wield them by that time anyways).

Edited April 20, 2012 by Refa

[Hawk King]

@ Refa

Ummm, yeah I know those are trivial CONS. Did you read what I had to say about her? I said that she should get as much Bexp as she can get because it is worth it. And the "doesnt join in Chapter 1" was tongue in cheek, hence the 9.5 that I gave her...

[Refa]

@ Refa

Ummm, yeah I know those are trivial CONS. Did you read what I had to say about her? I said that she should get as much Bexp as she can get because it is worth it. And the "doesnt join in Chapter 1" was tongue in cheek, hence the 9.5 that I gave her...

Well for the Chapter 1 comment, like I said, pedantic. For the BEXP it seemed a little forced. I guess I elaborated on it too much haha.

[Loki Laufeyson]

The reason i gave Jill a final score of 8 is because, while she is really amazing, i can actually go many runs without using her. When she is used, she does amazing junk but i just didnt feel her COMPLETELY and utterly necessary to finish the game. Unlike guys like Titania (in the beginning) and Oscar and Marcia and shiz. Also i really like Marcia better. Soooorry guys.

[dondon151]

Convince me by posting an argument in the tier list topic.

well, no, because you're just going to throw around your "optimal resource bundle" jargon and pretend like you understand exactly how much better titania is than jill because you're an economics major.

what does the tier list topic have anything to do with this argument? do you arbitrarily lose all capacity to understand arguments outside of that topic? i think my rhetorical argument is pretty clear, and i really can't be bothered to go on a chapter by chapter basis because it's impossible to convince you if i assert one thing and you just say otherwise.

like, just writing chapters off as "flying important" and "flying irrelevant" doesn't exactly reveal how much better flying is than being grounded.

Edited April 20, 2012 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

Chapters where any sort of mounted unit outclasses Titania: every chapter after Chapter 16 or 17

Chapter where Titania starts to not be the best/most useful/flexible unit on the map: one chapter after you recruit Marcia

I was referring to Titania becoming obsolete in Chapter 16-17, but she still gets outclassed earlier. Why use a unit that's no longer unique and grows slowly in the last thirds of the game over a character that will get better stats than her? She can't ORKO without a forge (Steel Axe forge isn't hard to get but she won't be doing much with it; enemies can be difficult to ORKO at points) and stuff to that extent.

It's not a question of who's unique. Fa is unique. IIRC dondon gave her a 0, and her average score couldn't have been more than a couple points higher. It's a question of who helps you beat the game more. Titania, like I said, is your best unit in the hardest portion of the game, a portion of the game where neither Jill nor Marcia even exist. And she's still better than them for at least 5 chapters after Jill comes in. There is no need for Titania lategame, yeah. But there is never a need for both Jill and Marcia. 2 flying units is obviously better than 1, but most jobs that need to be done by a flying unit can be done by just one of them.

And seriously, we give everyone dumps and dumps of BEXP and forges early-mid game to help them get going, we can't give Titania a +Mt forge lategame to help her out?

Therefore, at any given time, the one with more resources/Boots has a unique contribution. Two is better than one, but if you use one of them buffed- that one has a unique function for 2/3 of the game, whereas Titania stops being unique once BEXP units roll around.

And this is unique in a good way, bringing up Fae in an argument against uniqueness is dumb. And the hardest portion of the game varies by a lot- the early game is not particularly hard (admittedly due to Titania), but she isn't necessary past that, and Marcia/Jill net you some of the more faster and efficient clears in chapters after Marcia is recruited.

I'm on the Jill = Marcia boat because Marcia has some chapters of availability + some resistance (there are points where Resistance is very valued, namely against siege tomes and sleep staffs in Without a King) vs superior offense for some of the later chapters.

[BBM]

when i think of marcia and jill in FE9, i think about my FE6 speedrun where i RNG abuse str level ups on thany and she caps str at like 12/7. except that you don't have to RNG abuse in this game to get a flying goddess.

and the thing is, FE6 marcus is absolutely ridiculous in that game on NM. he ORKOs basically everything at least up until chapter 8 and probably after that as well. but after chapter 8, a thany solo is so much better that marcus almost never sees use again. this is basically FE9 in a nutshell; just replace marcus with titania and thany with marcia or jill.

so i am perfectly convinced that marcia and jill are both "better" than titania. they break this game apart like in a speedrun except you don't even have to rely on absurd luck to get them there. probably the best part is that you can actually use both.

But you only responded to my point in a speedrun perspective. Jill and Marcia can destroy maps in the second half of the game a couple turns quicker because of flight, but you still have other units who can destroy the map- they'll just take a couple turns longer. No one can destroy maps like Titania can in the first half of the game- the harder half of the game, IMO. And I think Titania's ability to do that is more valuable than Jill/Marcia's contributions.

Also, we can't just assume we're using the best units in the game and nobody else every playthrough. Just because Marcia/Jill make the best use of the BEXP doesn't mean dumping 1000 BEXP into them is not a cost- it still is. Just not as much of one as say, dumping it into Mia.

Vergil, netting a faster and more efficient clear in many cases only saves you turns/time. It doesn't make the chapter actually easier. Say the Shiharam chapter- Sure Jill can fly over and kill Shiharam 3-4 turns earlier than if you just lead your Pallies around the mountain- but the chapter doesn't become any more difficult. Remove Titania from earlygame, and those chapters become markedly more difficult. Maybe this is where we differ in opinions. I rate by who makes the game easier, not who takes lesser turns.