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Rate the Unit Day 8: Marty


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Please, point it out to me. Oh by the way I notice that Dondon explicitly broke the "do not use "brings a warp staff"" rule, and yet you didn't say shit to him about it.

anyone from #feto who was around when i was SSS ranking FE5 gets the joke

i'm not going to pay any attention to papermate's non-warpskip rule, because i have never played this game without abusing staves to their fullest, and as such i cannot give an otherwise informed opinion. so i'm going to stick to my guns. but it seems like you're mad and being a contrarian just for the hell of it so lol

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Think of it this way. Warpskip = Scroll abuse. Occasional warp use = Scrolls as a fringe benefit.

Banning scroll use altogether is like saying you can't use Warp at all; not even, e.g. to use Warp to have Olwen talk to Reinhardt so Cyas will leave, to access the Secret Shop, in Final to move your units to the centre after that Dark Warlord has been defeated, etc. There's a difference between using Warp when it's useful and Warpskipping, yes? Just as there's a difference between strategic use of Scrolls, and Scroll abuse.

I'm not saying no scrolls, but they shouldn't affect people since everyone has the same caps and everyone can use them and everyone can just cap ram all day.

This quote is basically what I'm trying to say.

Edited by Papermate
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i don't quite get what that is supposed to mean

to put what i'm saying in perspective, i have never completed chapters 16 and onwards the conventional way (with the exception of chapters 18 and F, which necessarily require conventional completions even when SSS ranking). so i really can't judge most units based on their performance past that point in the game aside from certain combat units specializing in boss killing and staffing.

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His bld, HP, and def are really good, in fact the best in the game. There's nobody who can even compare to him in defensive terms. As such, he's an invaluable member of any team.

Please explain to me where in this quote I even mention scrolls

I mean, I guess I don't even know how to read so maybe Baldrick could be so kind as to point it out for me

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Hey, I've never played the game without using scrolls a lot on the weakest unit I expect to gain a lot of levels in a given chapter. I guess that means I can only give an informed opinion on unit ratings when using scrolls that way.

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My score is Five.

Best HP and DEF potential out of any character (80 HP is phenomenal with 20 defense), great unit if you give him hand axes and the wrath skill so he'll maul anything at any range minus long-range bitches and he'll be Dagda 2.0 when promoted even at level 10 with help from Odo and Baldo Scrolls.

Yet, competition is high, and he really have to face many good units in the long run. Still, if you want to use him because of the advantages he will get (near 80 Hp = near untirable) the go for him. He won't suffer double retortion as Dagda because as a Worriah, he wont' have duel as a skill.

Edited by marcus90
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Please explain to me where in this quote I even mention scrolls

I mean, I guess I don't even know how to read so maybe Baldrick could be so kind as to point it out for me

Let's talk about "defensive terms".

One of the primary attributes of a good tank, hell, an adequate tank, is a little thing called "not being doubled all the fucking time". (If you have such overwhelming defense that you're in the ballpark of 10HKO'd by the strongest enemies you can get away with being doubled, but 6.40%, with a cap of 20, is hardly overwhelming). You can pretty much cut that nice HP in half. But maybe his speed will improve? No such luck; with a 15% growth, improvement is going to be slow. If only there was some way to boost that growth... There are scrolls, but of course we can't count them. You never mentioned them, and as everyone knows, people say everything they mean, all the time. And let's not forget your entire argument consists of Marty's tankiness, a feature useful in all of 2 chapters out of 30 odd. How is that worth a perfect score?

In Tanya's thread, you were rather explicit as to your views on not considering the effect scrolls have on units. The very next day, you seem to have accepted the premise completely. A more naive person may marvel at your remarkable change of heart. I, on the other hand, can put two and two together. I can see the cute little strategy you're employing; even the terrible units get a high score because of scrolls other reasons, who mentioned scrolls? I sure didn't. The problem is this; base stats, class, and availability supposedly mean everything. Several units beat Marty at all three. The best you can do for them is put them equal to Marty. How does that make any sense?

You may not explicitly mention scrolls, but anyone with half a brain can see that is the context behind your rating of Marty.

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Oh I see you gave really compelling evidence as to why I'm wrong

In fact, please point out to me which of the following rules I broke:

Please, point it out to me. Oh by the way I notice that Dondon explicitly broke the "do not use "brings a warp staff"" rule, and yet you didn't say shit to him about it. So stop being biased and count my vote, thanks :)

Even if you're not necessarily going to warpskip any individual chapter in the game, you could still do so, and even outside of warpskipping Warp staves are very useful (for example to get rid of Cyas in Chapter 22 or to stop Tina burning all her thief staff on you in Chapter 12x).

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Othin does make a bit of a point.

Anyway, Banzai, how about the fact that he has piss poor offensive abilities, struggles to survive for over half the game unless you grind him up, and even when 20/20 still has trouble doing anything other than taking hits, which he will take because he's not dodging the? Oh, and shitty weapon access and no skills. You said yourself that jointime, class, and bases matter more than raw stats. Seems like you should actually use your own criteria for rating a unit. Oh, then there's the fact that you're just trolling.

As for dondon, as he said, he didn't actually break the rule, since he said, "gets you a warp staff," not "brings a warp staff."

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Hey, I've never played the game without using scrolls a lot on the weakest unit I expect to gain a lot of levels in a given chapter. I guess that means I can only give an informed opinion on unit ratings when using scrolls that way.

oh, sure

but even then, bad characters are bad in ways that scrolls can't immediately fix, and the ability to use scrolls does benefit nearly all units - not by equal amounts, but rather similarly for units with closer join times. and you'd have to fit those units on a scale of 1-10, anyway.

in the end, it would still boil down to a matter of weapon ranks, class, and availability, and your score would maybe factor in how difficult it is to plow EXP into any given unit on a chapter, which would mean that characters like marty are still closer to the bottom of the ladder because it's harder to max out his stats than to max out othin's or halvan's stats (for one, it's much more difficult to get marty started).

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Did you guys know

If Marty leaves at the end of 3 with no weapons

He'll go to the Armory in 8 and buy one while he's an enemy

I don't know if it actually takes money or not though

Enemies have unlimited funds for that kind of trick.

Hmmmmm....that's wird. I'm pretty sur e that when I captured Shiva in 2x and took his stuff, then released him, he showed up in that later chapter where saphy can recruit him with another killing edge, or at least some kinda weapon.

As for dondon, as he said, he didn't actually break the rule, since he said, "gets you a warp staff," not "brings a warp staff."

The actual rule is "Similar to the "Recruits X" rule, do not use "she brings a warp staff" or any other justification as an argument."

The way it is worded, since you and others are trying to be strictly technical about what it says as opposed to what was probably intended, it essentially says "do not use any justification as an argument." That means that any rating which attempts to justify itself is invalid.

I rate Marty a 10/10 for no reason, since it is against the rules to give a reason.

(BTW, when you look at the rule, since it compares itself to the "recruits X" rule, which is an action taken by a character after joining, it is probably the case that the rule was intended to include getting as well as bringing a warp staff. However, that shouldn't invalidate Dondon's score, since he still rated Marty 1/10 - he offered a justification for possibly rating marty a few points and still gave him the lowest possible score.)

Edited by Hawkeye Hank Hatfield
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Hmmmmm....that's wird. I'm pretty sur e that when I captured Shiva in 2x and took his stuff, then released him, he showed up in that later chapter where saphy can recruit him with another killing edge, or at least some kinda weapon.

That's not the quite the same thing. Capturing and releasing doesn't really count as a death, so he'll eventually show up like normal in the next map he's supposed to. Galzus can't be released, but you can take away his Master Sword in chapter 6 and he'll be back in chapter 24 with his usual set.

We're talking about someone who can still act on his own but doesn't have any weapons, such as Marty with nothing on.

In maps without shops, they tend to flee or trade with other enemies, such as Chapter 18 Armorknights grabbing Xavier's Master Axe or Gustav's Master Lance. Edited by Dio
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Let's talk about "defensive terms".

One of the primary attributes of a good tank, hell, an adequate tank, is a little thing called "not being doubled all the fucking time". (If you have such overwhelming defense that you're in the ballpark of 10HKO'd by the strongest enemies you can get away with being doubled, but 6.40%, with a cap of 20, is hardly overwhelming). You can pretty much cut that nice HP in half. But maybe his speed will improve? No such luck; with a 15% growth, improvement is going to be slow. If only there was some way to boost that growth... There are scrolls, but of course we can't count them. You never mentioned them, and as everyone knows, people say everything they mean, all the time. And let's not forget your entire argument consists of Marty's tankiness, a feature useful in all of 2 chapters out of 30 odd. How is that worth a perfect score?

In Tanya's thread, you were rather explicit as to your views on not considering the effect scrolls have on units. The very next day, you seem to have accepted the premise completely. A more naive person may marvel at your remarkable change of heart. I, on the other hand, can put two and two together. I can see the cute little strategy you're employing; even the terrible units get a high score because of scrolls other reasons, who mentioned scrolls? I sure didn't. The problem is this; base stats, class, and availability supposedly mean everything. Several units beat Marty at all three. The best you can do for them is put them equal to Marty. How does that make any sense?

You may not explicitly mention scrolls, but anyone with half a brain can see that is the context behind your rating of Marty.

Nope

I personally feel that defensive stats are so much more important than speed and skill stats as to make them utterly irrelevant. It is my firm belief that Marty's defensive advantages are so high that his other disadvantages don't hamper him in the slightest way whatsoever.

You may disagree with that, sure, but you can't throw out my vote. I gave a reason taking into account gameplay mechanics and took care not to break a single rule. If you throw my vote out it's merely because you disagree with me and not for any legitimate reason, and thus, as usual, we see that this entire RTU farce is nothing more than a joke where units are only allowed to get a score similar to what the person running it believes that unit should get. Hell, even in the PoR RTU the people running it are "retallying" certain units in order to make it so Rhys > Soren and Mia > Soren.

Honestly, at this point we need to re-evaluate the point of this thread, and that is so people can give their opinion of the unit. If you want the scores to wind up just like a tier list, then... why don't you just make a tier list?

The only rule stating how much I need to discuss a unit's gameplay performance is:

- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted. If somebody else said what you want to already, quote them explicitly.

"Some". That's an ambiguous term, sure, but I'm fairly certain that I discussed Marty's gameplay performance more than:

The Marty Party never stops.

That is, unless you need a good unit. 1/10.

Nothing special, but not bad either. I'll toss on a bias point for sharing my name and give him a solid 6/10.
Nothing beyond a capture bot really

2.5/10

Marty is... well Marty. He does have some use by capturing enemies... IF HE CAN CAPTURE THEM.

1.5/10

he gets you a warp staff 1/10
he's useful at getting me more weapons early in the game 3/10

Unlike any of these people, I actually went into a discussion on Marty's stats, in which I brought up the (absolutely true) point that Marty has the highest HP, Def, and Bld in the game. Yet the instant I made my post, immediately people jump on me saying "lolno" or what you will. Why is it that "The Marty Party never stops unless you need a good unit" is a completely acceptable discourse on Marty's gameplay performance but what I posted isn't?

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They're retallying the PoR just to see what the scores would have been without bias points. They're not replacing the endgame scores, just resolving debates about which character should be ranked higher by taking bias points out.

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@Hawkeye, it's called a joke.

Nope

I personally feel that defensive stats are so much more important than speed and skill stats as to make them utterly irrelevant. It is my firm belief that Marty's defensive advantages are so high that his other disadvantages don't hamper him in the slightest way whatsoever.

Well you'd be wrong, but that's nothing new.

And like BBM said, they're retallying it to take out explicit bias, so your statement is complete bullshit.

Edited by bottlegnomes
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oh, sure

but even then, bad characters are bad in ways that scrolls can't immediately fix, and the ability to use scrolls does benefit nearly all units - not by equal amounts, but rather similarly for units with closer join times. and you'd have to fit those units on a scale of 1-10, anyway.

in the end, it would still boil down to a matter of weapon ranks, class, and availability, and your score would maybe factor in how difficult it is to plow EXP into any given unit on a chapter, which would mean that characters like marty are still closer to the bottom of the ladder because it's harder to max out his stats than to max out othin's or halvan's stats (for one, it's much more difficult to get marty started).

All depends on how we define the scale. If we choose to use a more universally calibrated scale where 3/10 or less is reserved for units that are utterly unfeasible to use for much of anything, and scrolls mean FE5 has none or virtually none of those characters, then it makes sense that someone rating units that way would rate few or no units at 3/10 or less and would instead choose higher ratings. Therefore the trend towards higher ratings compared to other games would be an accurate reflection of FE5's existing tendency to have units be more feasible to use than in other games.

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All depends on how we define the scale. If we choose to use a more universally calibrated scale where 3/10 or less is reserved for units that are utterly unfeasible to use for much of anything, and scrolls mean FE5 has none or virtually none of those characters, then it makes sense that someone rating units that way would rate few or no units at 3/10 or less and would instead choose higher ratings. Therefore the trend towards higher ratings compared to other games would be an accurate reflection of FE5's existing tendency to have units be more feasible to use than in other games.

Units are usually rated relative to each other. However, I suppose it's also true that whether Marty has a 0/10 or a 5/10, as long as he's near the bottom of the ratings, it's ok.

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You thinking I'm wrong doesn't mean anything.

My vote should still be counted, as I still haven't violated a single rule in the first page.

While your vote never violated a rule your points are irrelevant. High HP, Build, and Defense do not make a unit great (as your 10/10 implies) unless they make him useful. If high HP and defense do not keep him from being killed as often as other units, and high build does not help you capture units frequently because of low skill, then what do they do for the player? Give you bigger numbers to look at? If you really want to make an argument that he's a good unit, you should do so with actually relevant information and combat stats, as opposed to numbers that you don't give any context for. Individual stats in a void are about as relevant as the color of the player's hair.

Anyways, 2/10. He dies easily, has terrible offense, is dreadfully inaccurate, and is annoying to train when you have other great units that you could be putting the EXP into anyways. +2 for helping a little with early game captures.

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Whoa whoa whoa so I have to go and bring in even more stats and write paragraphs while Dondon gets away with "he gets you a warp staff"?

How is this fair? Why do I need to defend my claim so much while others can just say "sucks 1/10" and not get questioned at all? Who are you to decide which aspects of gameplay are relevant and irrelevant?

Why isn't my vote being counted, while several people who said less (and even less relevant) things than I did are counted, no question?

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Banzai, has anyone with the power to decide such actually said your vote wasn't being counted? All I see is the person making the thread saying he needs to review things.

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Whoa whoa whoa so I have to go and bring in even more stats and write paragraphs while Dondon gets away with "he gets you a warp staff"?

marty sucking is implicit; i do not have to say that marty has bad bases, growths, and/or weapon ranks if that evidence is fully available on the main site

furthermore my reasoning is a clever joke because marty's role in SSS playthroughs is to bring corple back home in chapter 3, thus netting you a warp staff (i.e., you need marty to rescue people)

also i demand a legitimate reason for why my posts keep getting deleted; why am i the one getting warned for flaming/trolling when there is clearly a worse offender in this thread

Edited by dondon151
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Whoa whoa whoa so I have to go and bring in even more stats and write paragraphs while Dondon gets away with "he gets you a warp staff"?

How is this fair? Why do I need to defend my claim so much while others can just say "sucks 1/10" and not get questioned at all? Who are you to decide which aspects of gameplay are relevant and irrelevant?

Why isn't my vote being counted, while several people who said less (and even less relevant) things than I did are counted, no question?

I don't really give a shit who's vote is counted... I was just pointing out how terrible your points were. It's obvious you submitted your vote to cause an argument, act like you're the victim, and try to point out your problems with dondon's posts. You could have just done so in a much less annoying and passive aggressive way.

Also: I didn't decide which aspects of the game are relevant or irrelevant, the game designers did. If you can't see how HP is irrelevant if you still get your ass kicked in one round, you're an idiot. But I'm completely confident you are aware, and are just trying to make me out to be elitist or trying to push my ideas of "good", or something of that nature.

Edited by Aethereal
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