Fiona is terrible

[Dr. Silent]

^Yeah, you also highlighted the main issue when it comes to Fiona and Meg - effort. Why bother with the effort of training them up in Hard mode. Fiona is kinda like a lance-wielding Jill who can't fly, has crap base stats and crap growths, and joins under-levelled. Like practically all the unpromoted DB members in Hard mode, Meg will almost never double-attack anything, plus wielding swords and a 35% (or thereabouts) Strength growth means she won't be doing much in return from all the hits she's supposedly tanking.

DB chapters should be focussed around training up Nolan and Jill, especially in Hard mode. If you really want an unpromoted DB tank, pick Aran. He has better movement, awesome General-esque growths despite being a Soldier, and that 70% Strength growth + lances means he'll be doing much more damage than Meg.

[Talsian]

Not sure where to begin with that one. First off Fiona's growths are excellent. 45%HP 40%STR 15%MAG 40%SKL 60%SPD 55%LCK 55%DEF 50%RES

Second you train them up in hard mode because it is boring using the same characters all the time. It's a challenge. And it is satisfying to create a pretty good character from the little resources you get on hard. I wouldn't recommend it for a first game, but this game is so old, I'm assuming that the people here have played it at least once. By this logic you'd never use any non royal laguz on hard because they are so hard to train to a high level with SS strike other than Volug and Kurthnaga. I don't understand this. To extend this argument to it's most absurd, why bother with Jill or Nolan when there is Carneighis and Giffca?

Third, I laid out a strategy for each that gets them up to speed immediately without sacrificing the experience of others. Yes it takes time, but the point is variety. And really it's only about 10 minutes for meg and maybe 15 to 20 for Fiona. After that they are fine to use.

A lance using Jill? Meg uses swords? This brings me to my fourth point, you focus a lot of the weapon triangle, which doesn't exist in hard.

Lastly, the DB chapters should be about doing what you want and having fun, not leveling Nolan and Jill. I killed off Nolan and Jill on 3-12 when I had Jill rescue Nolan to try to go down and kill Sigrun (she's the general there). They both got swarmed and died after putting up quite a battle, but it was the most fun I had in the entire play through, so I think they both got used to their maximum potential on this game.

[Komeiji Koishi]

Having 45%hp and 40%strength growth is what passes as excellent? Sure her Res and Def are decent, but that doesn't excuse subpar HP and Str growths.

Also, you "bothered" with Nolan and Jill because if you didn't, you'd get curb stomped durin the DB parts (is it any wonder he's known by some as Chuck Nolan?).

And not everyone plays on hard with Failtastic units while killing off the good units.

Edited September 17, 2012 by Lieutenant Colonel Kalas

[Progenitus]

we all are capable of babying meg and fiona until they are capable fighters. The big question is, why bother? Yes, IS probably put them in (intentionally or unintentionally) so players can train them as a challenge. But that doesn't change the fact that they're bad units.

[Talsian]

Nephenee has the same hp growth and 5% less str.

It was a challenge game.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Talsian

[Dr. Silent]

Not sure where to begin with that one. First off Fiona's growths are excellent. 45%HP 40%STR 15%MAG 40%SKL 60%SPD 55%LCK 55%DEF 50%RES

Second you train them up in hard mode because it is boring using the same characters all the time. It's a challenge. And it is satisfying to create a pretty good character from the little resources you get on hard. I wouldn't recommend it for a first game, but this game is so old, I'm assuming that the people here have played it at least once. By this logic you'd never use any non royal laguz on hard because they are so hard to train to a high level with SS strike other than Volug and Kurthnaga. I don't understand this. To extend this argument to it's most absurd, why bother with Jill or Nolan when there is Carneighis and Giffca?

Third, I laid out a strategy for each that gets them up to speed immediately without sacrificing the experience of others. Yes it takes time, but the point is variety. And really it's only about 10 minutes for meg and maybe 15 to 20 for Fiona. After that they are fine to use.

A lance using Jill? Meg uses swords? This brings me to my fourth point, you focus a lot of the weapon triangle, which doesn't exist in hard.

Lastly, the DB chapters should be about doing what you want and having fun, not leveling Nolan and Jill. I killed off Nolan and Jill on 3-12 when I had Jill rescue Nolan to try to go down and kill Sigrun (she's the general there). They both got swarmed and died after putting up quite a battle, but it was the most fun I had in the entire play through, so I think they both got used to their maximum potential on this game.

Yeah, it's satisfying to create a pretty good character on Hard with the limited resources you have. You know what's also more satisfying? Creating an excellent character in Hard using the limited resources you have. So I don't see your point. Oh, and 40% Strength growth for a unit with terrible base Strength is absolutely useless. Same goes for Skill and HP. She can't hit or kill anything, and will be destroyed on the counter.

Yeah, nothing wrong with a bit of variety in training up DB members. So, I think on one playthrough I'll train up Zihark. Or maybe Volug. Or Aran. Or Edward. Or even someone like Leonardo. They're all better than Fiona/Meg.

Uhh, you clearly didn't read my post properly. I said Fiona was a lance-using Jill who cann't fly, has rubbish base stats and poor growths. Nor did I focus on the weapon triangle whatsoever. How does mentioning weapons automatically relate to the weapons triangle. Perhaps you may wish to consider reading this post properly when/if you reply to it, in order to look less stupid. And yes, Meg uses swords, which are even worse in Hard mode because they have no weapons triangle advantage, so you're tripping over your own words. Congratulations.

Totally great strategy man! You're an absolute strategic wizard! Who ever thought that killing the two best beorc characters in the game in such an unnecessary manner would turn out to be the best way to make the most out of them?! Heh, now that I'm done being sarcastic, I'd just like to say that I agree about doing your best to enjoy the DB chapters (with 3-12 the best one to do so on because it's the easiest DB chapter in the game), but sending Nolan and Jill to commit suicide when they're vital in the upcoming chapter is not my idea of either fun nor efficiency.

Nephenee has the same hp growth and 5% less str.

It was a challenge game.

Yeah, except Nephenee joins with decent base stats (even better with PoR transfer data), can easily gain several level-ups in Part 2 (especially in 2-E with the 'Javelin rain' strategy...do ask if curious), joins Ike's team in Part 3, and will most likely cap Skill and Speed (and possibly Resistance) at around level 10, meaning BExp will skyrocket her Strength (which will most likely have gained two or three increases after ten normal levels up anyway). On the whole, her excellent availability and usefulness in ORKOing faster enemies with below-average Defence results in her being pretty damn easy to train up, even in Hard mode.

Still not satisfied with Nephenee? Want an awesome unit who uses lances? Use Aran. With uber growths in HP, Strength, Defence and Skill, he'll hit things, he'll hurt things, and he'll be able to take more than a couple of counter-hits in the process.

[MacLovin]

Aran isn't considered to be good in HM.

Decent at best, but his lolspeed kinda kills it.

Also, Fiona is just plain bad. HM DB parts can be such a pain, and not everyone is going to spend that time grinding Fiona/Meg/Vika up to par.

When units like Boyd/Nephenee/Soren/Edward/Zihark are already struggling to even float above "par"

[Talsian]

Yeah under leveled units are a pain on hard. Not much else to say about that... I said I would not reccommend her for a casual game. The point is sort of a dead horse.

Aran is difficult to fix on hard. There just isn't the BEXP to do it. I'm not too crazy about Nolan on hard either because ultimately it is hard to fix his strength. He has the same Str growth rate as Fiona. If we really want to get down to it Neph is the same.

I actually like Boyd. Ike has so many chapters that it isn't too bad bringing him up to speed even in a casual game.

I think Jill is the best DB unit if we want to go there, but every character is disposable.

Fiona isn't great I never claimed that. If you get her up to speed she is the best endgame paladin, but that isn't saying much. She is like so many other characters in this game, you have to go out of your way to make them useful. It seems like the designers are encouraging boss abuse.

Lol @ dr silent. Ok maybe I was a bit rude. Sorry about that. Maybe we could ratchet it down a bit.

[Komeiji Koishi]

... every character except Micaiah and Sothe is disposable

Fixed that for you, because if you 'disposed' of them, Game Over.

Edited September 18, 2012 by Lieutenant Colonel Kalas

[MacLovin]

Yeah under leveled units are a pain on hard. Not much else to say about that... I said I would not reccommend her for a casual game. The point is sort of a dead horse.

Aran is difficult to fix on hard. There just isn't the BEXP to do it. I'm not too crazy about Nolan on hard either because ultimately it is hard to fix his strength. He has the same Str growth rate as Fiona. If we really want to get down to it Neph is the same.

I actually like Boyd. Ike has so many chapters that it isn't too bad bringing him up to speed even in a casual game.

I think Jill is the best DB unit if we want to go there, but every character is disposable.

Fiona isn't great I never claimed that. If you get her up to speed she is the best endgame paladin, but that isn't saying much. She is like so many other characters in this game, you have to go out of your way to make them useful. It seems like the designers are encouraging boss abuse.

Lol @ dr silent. Ok maybe I was a bit rude. Sorry about that. Maybe we could ratchet it down a bit.

Point is, units that don't take excessive babying and resources to fix are the ones SF seems to like.

Like Nolan, TIts, Volug, maybe Oscar, HM!Mia, Shinon.

Fiona has this problem of availibility, bad bases, and lop-sided growths for bexp dumping.

Jill comes right before alot of CEXP, can take forges and etc. And flies and can go to GMs if one desires.

Aran is Haar reclassed as a soldier at tier one, he's even got the same res/spd problems. Only diff is having an "average" speed base. vs what Haar has.

[Dr. Silent]

Aran isn't considered to be good in HM.

Decent at best, but his lolspeed kinda kills it.

Also, Fiona is just plain bad. HM DB parts can be such a pain, and not everyone is going to spend that time grinding Fiona/Meg/Vika up to par.

When units like Boyd/Nephenee/Soren/Edward/Zihark are already struggling to even float above "par"

I agree. I tried using him on Hard once. Too slow! He was useful for tanking a few hits (although even he can't take all that much) but not much else. I was just saying that, as a lance user, he's easier to use than Failona.

Not sure I agree about Nephenee. I've found it depends how you play and how lucky you get with her Strength growth in Part 2. But then again, maybe that's what you were getting at? Agree on the others. Boyd/Zihark/Ed/Soren rock outside of Hard, but struggle in Hard.

Yeah under leveled units are a pain on hard. Not much else to say about that... I said I would not reccommend her for a casual game. The point is sort of a dead horse.

Aran is difficult to fix on hard. There just isn't the BEXP to do it. I'm not too crazy about Nolan on hard either because ultimately it is hard to fix his strength. He has the same Str growth rate as Fiona. If we really want to get down to it Neph is the same.

I actually like Boyd. Ike has so many chapters that it isn't too bad bringing him up to speed even in a casual game.

I think Jill is the best DB unit if we want to go there, but every character is disposable.

Fiona isn't great I never claimed that. If you get her up to speed she is the best endgame paladin, but that isn't saying much. She is like so many other characters in this game, you have to go out of your way to make them useful. It seems like the designers are encouraging boss abuse.

Lol @ dr silent. Ok maybe I was a bit rude. Sorry about that. Maybe we could ratchet it down a bit.

Well, the thing about Nolan is that aside from Str and Def his growths rock. He actually has 5% more Strength growth than Fiona, and at 45% it isn't likely he'll end up RNG screwed for Strength, although it can happen it is quite unlikely. His Speed and Skill growths are much more reliable than Boyd's, and as an axe user he needs both.

The problem with Boyd is his Speed. Even if you can buff it up with PoR transfer data (unlikely because he doesn't have a very good chance of capping Speed in PoR without BExp resets and Speedwing abuse) his base Speed isn't great and he won't double anything early on. Same goes for his Skill...it doesn't start off too great and his shite Biorhythm means he probably won't be able to hit much when you really need him to. Both can go either way depending on the RNG growth luck. It's nothing new though...Ike's team is uber but aside from Ike, Neph, Mia and Shinon, the Greil Mercs generally aren't great Speed-wise. Still one of the better units in Ike's team, though...I always use him until 4-E, but prefer Nolan to him in the Tower because Nolan's Res is much better.

I agree about Jill. In my opinion, the best Beorc unit in the game. Becomes utterly uber in Part 4.

Yeah no prob, no hard feelings dude.

[PKL]

Well, the thing about Nolan is that aside from Str and Def his growths rock. He actually has 5% more Strength growth than Fiona, and at 45% it isn't likely he'll end up RNG screwed for Strength, although it can happen it is quite unlikely.

Say that to basically all my draft Nolans. One of them had 13 str in Tier 2 Level 1. Fun fact: He also had like 18 str by the end of 3-6. Thank God BEXP exists and that he capped skl spd res for some str BEXP fun. At the end of the game, he had 28 str in Tier 3 :/

Edited September 18, 2012 by CR-S0I

[Talsian]

It's hard to go wrong with either warrior. Boyd's bio bothers me more with him getting hit. He can't avoid worth a damn. Boyd ends out at about 34 speed which does the job for the end. You might need a speedwing to fix it but just bringing him up to nearly leveling and the giving him a few points of bexp to level after hittin a couple caps does the job generally. Nolan has so many levels he gets more time to drift off course. But generally Nolan is pretty excellent.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Fiona is actually pretty good when you get her up to speed, but is not worth the effort for a casual game. All this is a bit over the top, though the original post was amusing.

Yeah but even then, her strength on average doesnt get very high and shes gonna want an Energy Drop. Her base skill is also ass and a Secret Book may be necessary. Plus all the time it takes to level her. 1-E is the best place because Nailah can Glare those priests and Fiona can whack away at them. But the turns...ohhh the turns....

Once she is up to speed, she can tank pretty well and Paragon is her friend. But its a lot of work even on easy mode because she does best without BEXP dumps. Abuse, yeah but dumps, not so much. Fiona's part 1 maps are just not kind to her. D:

Hard mode, it goes something like Nolan, Sothe, Volug, Jill, Zihark (maybe), Edward (maybe) and Tauroneo.

[Talsian]

Well there's a difference, at least in my mind, between Fiona, who I can make something resembling useful and a character like Astrid. I've tried with Astrid and even up to a good level I still felt like she was a liability with poor speed, strength, and def. It's probably a lot easier in normal where there is a lot more BEXP to fix her stats.

Tauroneo?

[Loki Laufeyson]

Astrid requires a trick to get good too. Its not as time consuming as Fiona but it does require some love. Transfers work in Astrid's favor, plus a bit of babying in her chapters. But shes one of the only units that can use the magical Paragon/Blossom combo in her favor. Paragon negates the exp dip that Blossom gives, leaving Astrid to getting the normal amount of exp. Astrid is a lot like Fiona where BEXP dumps right out of the box arent that helpful, but abuse works pretty well. Hard mode, unless yer hardcore, i wouldnt bother though.

[Talsian]

It seems pretty obvious but I didn't think about the Paragon + Blossom for Astrid. I've used it on Kurth before though. I don't think I'd do anything like this again anytime soon.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Talsian

[Dr. Silent]

Well there's a difference, at least in my mind, between Fiona, who I can make something resembling useful and a character like Astrid. I've tried with Astrid and even up to a good level I still felt like she was a liability with poor speed, strength, and def. It's probably a lot easier in normal where there is a lot more BEXP to fix her stats.

Tauroneo?

You pretty much HAVE to use Tauroneo in 1-6-2. You just don't have enough good units to pull it off without him. Tauroneo solos the western bridge while Jill, Nolan, Volug and co. head north-east to fight the cavalry attacking Fiona.

[Talsian]

You pretty much HAVE to use Tauroneo in 1-6-2. You just don't have enough good units to pull it off without him. Tauroneo solos the western bridge while Jill, Nolan, Volug and co. head north-east to fight the cavalry attacking Fiona.

I asked because I was thinking that Jon Snow was referring to Tauroneo as more of a long term character.

[MacLovin]

Well there's a difference, at least in my mind, between Fiona, who I can make something resembling useful and a character like Astrid. I've tried with Astrid and even up to a good level I still felt like she was a liability with poor speed, strength, and def. It's probably a lot easier in normal where there is a lot more BEXP to fix her stats.

Tauroneo?

Astrid gets access to a team with more resources and a possibly higher bexp lot.

Astrid requires a trick to get good too. Its not as time consuming as Fiona but it does require some love. Transfers work in Astrid's favor, plus a bit of babying in her chapters. But shes one of the only units that can use the magical Paragon/Blossom combo in her favor. Paragon negates the exp dip that Blossom gives, leaving Astrid to getting the normal amount of exp. Astrid is a lot like Fiona where BEXP dumps right out of the box arent that helpful, but abuse works pretty well. Hard mode, unless yer hardcore, i wouldnt bother though.

You pretty much HAVE to use Tauroneo in 1-6-2. You just don't have enough good units to pull it off without him. Tauroneo solos the western bridge while Jill, Nolan, Volug and co. head north-east to fight the cavalry attacking Fiona.

1-6-2.

Resolve!Volug

Resolve!_______

Or Jill dropping Sothe too.

I asked because I was thinking that Jon Snow was referring to Tauroneo as more of a long term character.

Tauroneos problem is bad bases for his level.

[Talsian]

Not that it's a major point, but you could pull it off with an unequipped Sothe (you could throw a Resolve on Sothe if you're feeling paranoid) and a sturdy unit like Nolan equipped with a weapon next to him (you could put a shade on Nolan if you're feeling paranoid). I generally have Sothe up there unequipped with Tauroneo and Sothe gets the vast majority of the attacks and he can dodge enough of them to pull it off (assuming that Micky is in range with the A support). If I equip Sothe then almost all of the attacks go to Tauroneo, but Sothe does end up getting some kills and I generally don't like that waste.

[Dr. Silent]

^Why? Sothe is very mediocre character who simply can't hack it by 3-13 on Hard.

[Talsian]

Oh, Sothe doesn't get any kills. If I remember correctly I had 4 kills with him the last game I played and I ended out wondering when that could have happened. He's just an evasion tank while other characters that I may be trying to level (like Micaiah or Jill) are standing in the back soaking up kills. All Sothe does is stand there, dodge, and shove others out of the way of ranged users.

I generally only send Zihark and Volug up north. They can handle the few stragglers.

I generally don't even have weapons in Sothe's inventory in the earlier parts of the game in case his inventory gets full from thieving and he has to trade with someone which of course would equip a weapon on him and he might accidentally kill something.

Edited September 19, 2012 by Red Fox of Fire

[Silith]

Sothe can solo all the DB chapters he's in. (I've done it so I know)

Sothe can also use a forge'd knife to 2-turn 1-6-2.

Zihark is actually pretty bad because he requires to build up his support to get a still iffy dodge. Also his base stats aren't great. You are better ff trtainign Nolan and Aran (or even Edward if you are a bit of a Masochist)

Not having weapons on Sothe in part 1 slows you down a lot. Concidering you are using Zihark I can imagine you just like to take it slow and wait out all the reinforcements.

At least it's a great way to get Fiona usable at all.

[Florete]

Oh, Sothe doesn't get any kills. If I remember correctly I had 4 kills with him the last game I played and I ended out wondering when that could have happened. He's just an evasion tank while other characters that I may be trying to level (like Micaiah or Jill) are standing in the back soaking up kills. All Sothe does is stand there, dodge, and shove others out of the way of ranged users.

I generally only send Zihark and Volug up north. They can handle the few stragglers.

I generally don't even have weapons in Sothe's inventory in the earlier parts of the game in case his inventory gets full from thieving and he has to trade with someone which of course would equip a weapon on him and he might accidentally kill something.

Triple posting: this is bad. Please use the Edit function in the future.