Rate the Unit, Epilogue!

[eclipse]

WHY would you want a unit that can shoot arrows on a horse and use magic? That makes no sense, stat-wise.

[Vicious Sal]

WHY would you want a unit that can shoot arrows on a horse and use magic? That makes no sense, stat-wise.

Diverse [異質さ]Str +1, Mag +1

Str +10%, Mag +10%Or

Recluse [隠遁者]-

Str +15%, Mag +15%

It kinda does. Nosferatu is incredibly helpful, and as I said, being able to do both would be helpful depending on what you need where. I know that other Units can do the same, but MU is stats wise the most powerful unit you have.

Didn't you make a Falcoknight with great magic once?

[eclipse]

Her purpose was Levin Sword while flying. I wasn't whining about "oh she can't go on a horse to shoot bows never mind the fact that Snipers have better stats". No unit in the game can go Horseman/Nosfertank, so does that mean that no unit deserves a 10? Hammerne's nice, but Malliesia's not the only unit that can use it.

[Vicious Sal]

Her purpose was Levin Sword while flying. I wasn't whining about "oh she can't go on a horse to shoot bows never mind the fact that Snipers have better stats". No unit in the game can go Horseman/Nosfertank, so does that mean that no unit deserves a 10? Hammerne's nice, but Malliesia's not the only unit that can use it.

Horsemen are infinitely better than Snipers in this game. Being able to handle both Brave bow, silver etc & Wyrmslayer is incredible, even more so on Lunatic. Having the ability to attack at 1 range is very important. And I already stated that, in my opinion, without Bias involved anywhere, no unit except for malliesia deserves a 10. Nosferatu is incredible, the horseman class, as well as berserker classes do not mix with Nosferatu, and they are great/amazing in their own right. Since no unit can make the combo, they do not deserve a 10. 9.9, yes, but ten, no. Hammerne is the exception.

And seriously, you brought lena into the argument? LENA? Are you really suing that malliesia's Hammerne utility isn't anything special because she isn't the only one who can use it? There is a difference between Chapter 1 and chapter 24...

[eclipse]

You're completely ignoring everything else that's wrong with Malliesia in favor of Hammerne. Even though Lena can use Hammerne, I don't see her sitting at the top of anything. Meanwhile, Malliesia can't reclas into Horseman/Berserker, no matter what, and Hammerne usage doesn't somehow negate the fact that you start off with a unit with decent bases/good growths/best availability, and then put even more bonuses on top of him/her. Thus, I think your perception of what should get a 10 is bullshit.

[Vicious Sal]

You're completely ignoring everything else that's wrong with Malliesia in favor of Hammerne. Even though Lena can use Hammerne, I don't see her sitting at the top of anything. Meanwhile, Malliesia can't reclas into Horseman/Berserker, no matter what, and Hammerne usage doesn't somehow negate the fact that you start off with a unit with decent bases/good growths/best availability, and then put even more bonuses on top of him/her. Thus, I think your perception of what should get a 10 is bullshit.

Malliesia has almost no shortcomings, and the ones that are there are redundant for what she does. she didn't earn that 9.5 for no reason. Hammerne is the strongest tool the is in this game. Considering no unit, ever, can manage to save that many turns. And I do not understand why you are now conflicting your own lena argument.

"Hammerne's nice, but Malliesia's not the only unit that can use it."

Doesn't this mean that you devalue Malliesia because she doesn't have a unique niche? If not, then tell me what it does, because that's what i got from it. The difference, MaL has an entire game to use that staff, and is the only one. Lena has one chapter, where she won't even get to use it most likely. I really don't understand the rest of that argument, explicitly this: "Malliesia can't reclas into Horseman/Berserker, no matter what, and Hammerne usage doesn't somehow negate the fact that you start off with a unit with decent bases/good growths/best availability, and then put even more bonuses on top of him/her"

I get the idea that you think that i'm devaluing malliesia from this. This isn't true, because I said that she is the only person in this game who in my opinion deserves a ten, without bias taken into consideration. I devalued MU for not being able to become Horseman/Berserker with nosferatu access, just like I would not give anyone else a ten because No One can do that. (once again, ignoring bias) I think we have a misunderstanding here, so please tell me what you is what I am thinking. Because i'm saying malliesia is the best unit in this game, but from what you just said, I get the idea that you think I think of her as a lousy unit.

So as for the last segment, I have made crappy ratings in Fe10, but i've hardly rated here at all. My ratings were: Maliessia: 10/10, MU: 9.9, Catria 10/10(because bias). What is so bullshit about those? Does everybody actually hate me for not giving Mu a 10/10?

[bottlegnomes]

How about her low durability and inability to contribute offensively for over half the game?

I really don't see how 3 extra weapons, warps, whatever, makes her more useful than units who trivialize the game like Palla, Catria, Sirius, and MU.

It's bullshit because you're penalizing a unit for something that's literally impossible to attain in the game without hacking. It'd like me saying Seth shouldn't get a 10 because he can't have slayer and a horse.

Edited July 9, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Colonel M]

Seth may seem great, but he can't fly. Nor use Nosferatu. Haters.

9.9/10.

See how retarded this sounds?

[Vicious Sal]

Seth may seem great, but he can't fly. Nor use Nosferatu. Haters.

9.9/10.

See how retarded this sounds?

Yes, I completely see how retarded it sounds, because the wording makes it entirely different from what i'm saying.

If i were to use seth as an example, i'd say it like this: Seth IS AMAZING (No "seems" or whatever, since that implies he sucks/mediocrity), but he isn't a wyvern knight, which limits his movement. So he doesn't get a full 10/10. I'm leaving slayer out of this since there is a big difference between having reclass and not having it.

How about her low durability and inability to contribute offensively for over half the game?

Does it matter when the most important job is to repair a Staff that Bishop/Sage MU or Arran bring over to where it needs to be used? I've said before, Maliiesia has unique UTILITY, utility =/= attacking

I really don't see how 3 extra weapons, warps, whatever, makes her more useful than units who trivialize the game like Palla, Catria, Sirius, and MU.

I'll give you a very detailed list of where and how I used malliesia to get 99 turns without fe12 warpskip. (Which, btw isn't even optimal i have discovered.) It's impossible to get >100 turns without hammerne usage. Suck on that Palla, Catria, Sirius & MU

It's bullshit because you're penalizing a unit for something that's literally impossible to attain in the game without hacking. It'd like me saying Seth shouldn't get a 10 because he can't have slayer and a horse.

I ask you a simple question: If the nosferatu & berserker+horseman combo was possible, would MU be even more ridiculous?

If your answer to that is no, you are seriously retarded. MU would be even better, sadly, it isn't possible to have that combination, not for anyone, so I docked 0.1 point for it.

[bottlegnomes]

Yes, I completely see how retarded it sounds, because the wording makes it entirely different from what i'm saying.

If i were to use seth as an example, i'd say it like this: Seth IS AMAZING (No "seems" or whatever, since that implies he sucks/mediocrity), but he isn't a wyvern knight, which limits his movement. So he doesn't get a full 10/10. I'm leaving slayer out of this since there is a big difference between having reclass and not having it.

You're docking Seth for not being the absolute perfect unit. Going by that logic, no unit should ever be able to get a 10/10.

Does it matter when the most important job is to repair a Staff that Bishop/Sage MU or Arran bring over to where it needs to be used? I've said before, Maliiesia has unique UTILITY, utility =/= attacking

Yes. Because of that, there are places you can't put her. So unless you play perfectly or slowly, there are times where she can be a liability. When are Sirius, MU, Palla, or Catria ever a liability?

I'll give you a very detailed list of where and how I used malliesia to get 99 turns without fe12 warpskip. (Which, btw isn't even optimal i have discovered.) It's impossible to get >100 turns without hammerne usage. Suck on that Palla, Catria, Sirius & MU

And turns are clearly all that matters.

I ask you a simple question: If the nosferatu & berserker+horseman combo was possible, would MU be even more ridiculous?

If your answer to that is no, you are seriously retarded. MU would be even better, sadly, it isn't possible to have that combination, not for anyone, so I docked 0.1 point for it.

Not appreciably. He curbstomps H1 so hard that he might as well be invincible. It's like saying Sigurd would be better if he started with Tyrfing. It's objectively true, but it makes so little difference that it doesn't matter.

For that matter, you can have paladin!MU, draco/falco!MU, and nosferatu!MU. Pally, Draco, and Falco all have the same or better attack range than horseman!MU (10 move + 1-2 attack range vs 9 move and 1-2 attack range). How many places are there that you need bows or berserkers in H1?

Plus it's not like you can have a mounted berserker!MU using nosferatu. You're just saying you want the option to have a berserker!MU in one chapter, then nosferatu MU in the next, and horseman!MU in the next. And honestly, no, it wouldn't ever be that useful.

[Vicious Sal]

You're docking Seth for not being the absolute perfect unit. Going by that logic, no unit should ever be able to get a 10/10.

Do you realize how contradictory that sounds? 10/10 means it's perfect, that it either has no flaws, or it has something so fantastic that the minor flaws pale to nothingness because of it. Also, I am docking Mu for not being perfect, hence i didn't give a 10/10. I know we used seth as an example, but i actually didn't rate him. If i would rate him, I'd probably give him a 9.8 or w/e, he's incredibly close to being perfect, he isn't however.

Yes. Because of that, there are places you can't put her. So unless you play perfectly or slowly, there are times where she can be a liability. When are Sirius, MU, Palla, or Catria ever a liability?

Yeah no. Hammerne is one range. And I can show you how to maximize usage of Rescue, Hammerne, Again, Thief and Warp. And trust me, it isn't hard to keep her out of combat. First time it was in a draft, that time she just fought as well, but later i sped through, and she is never in danger or keeping people waiting. You can say PEMN, but these are replica table strats.

And turns are clearly all that matters.

Yes, as long as it's reliable, and efficient. And Hammerne makes stuff way more reliable than not using it. As simple example: Chapter 19, people hate it. it's the wolf guard chapter. Normally, you are out of rescue uses and have to go the hard way round. 7 turns minimum iirc. Because hammerne provides extra rescue uses, you can 1 turn it easily. (I discovered rescueskipping as a loophole in the draft warpskipping rules) It is without doubt, the most reliable 1 turn that does not have marth being warped or being rescued by someone who has been warped previously in the chapter.

Not appreciably. He curbstomps H1 so hard that he might as well be invincible. It's like saying Sigurd would be better if he started with Tyrfing. It's objectively true, but it makes so little difference that it doesn't matter.

Thank you for the tiring example. You said it made a little difference, for you, it doesn't matter, for me, as reflected in my score, it does.

For that matter, you can have paladin!MU, draco/falco!MU, and nosferatu!MU. Pally, Draco, and Falco all have the same or better attack range than horseman!MU (10 move + 1-2 attack range vs 9 move and 1-2 attack range). How many places are there that you need bows or berserkers in H1?

Plus it's not like you can have a mounted berserker!MU using nosferatu. You're just saying you want the option to have a berserker!MU in one chapter, then nosferatu MU in the next, and horseman!MU in the next. And honestly, no, it wouldn't ever be that useful.

The 10 move is important on certain chapter, like 20x, can't deny that, but they are available in both sets. however, 3 mt hand axes and 2 mt javelins vs a silver of brave bow. It's a big difference. And yes, i'd like to have a MU that could be what i need in one chapter, and something else in the next. It is useful in H1, and vital in H3, especially the Horseman class.

I say we close this discussion now about this 0.1/10 difference. I believe i have explained my vote sufficiently for it not to be cast out. If you'd like i'll pm you a list of where i used which staff, although the 99 turns clear isn't even optimal.

Deit: rage @ autocorrect... >__<

Edited July 9, 2012 by Vicious Sal

[bottlegnomes]

Do you realize how contradictory that sounds? 10/10 means it's perfect, that it either has no flaws, or it has something so fantastic that the minor flaws pale to nothingness because of it. Also, I am docking Mu for not being perfect, hence i didn't give a 10/10. I know we used seth as an example, but i actually didn't rate him. If i would rate him, I'd probably give him a 9.8 or w/e, he's incredibly close to being perfect, he isn't however.

@bold, so MU singlehandedly trivializing the game doesn't count as that? Or Seth doing the same? Or Sigurd?

Evidently only staffbots can ever be "perfect units."

Yeah no. Hammerne is one range. And I can show you how to maximize usage of Rescue, Hammerne, Again, Thief and Warp. And trust me, it isn't hard to keep her out of combat. First time it was in a draft, that time she just fought as well, but later i sped through, and she is never in danger or keeping people waiting. You can say PEMN, but these are replica table strats.

It's still a flaw she has to potentially deal with and one you're completely ignoring. One Palla, Catria, Sirius, and MU don't.

Yes, as long as it's reliable, and efficient. And Hammerne makes stuff way more reliable than not using it. As simple example: Chapter 19, people hate it. it's the wolf guard chapter. Normally, you are out of rescue uses and have to go the hard way round. 7 turns minimum iirc. Because hammerne provides extra rescue uses, you can 1 turn it easily. (I discovered rescueskipping as a loophole in the draft warpskipping rules) It is without doubt, the most reliable 1 turn that does not have marth being warped or being rescued by someone who has been warped previously in the chapter.

You don't understand sarcasm, do you?

Thank you.

You're welcome.

The 10 move is important on certain chapter, like 20x, can't deny that, but they are available in both sets. however, 3 mt hand axes and 2 mt javelins vs a silver of brave bow. It's a big difference. And yes, i'd like to have a MU that could be what i need in one chapter, and something else in the next. It is useful in H1, and vital in H3, especially the Horseman class.

I say we close this discussion now about this 0.1/10 difference. I believe i have explained my vote sufficiently for it not to be cast out. If you'd like i'll pm you a list of where i used which staff, although the 99 turns clear isn't even optimal.

10+1=9+2. You can use a brave lance draco any time you'd want a brave bow horseman and have the same attack range. The only advantages a horseman has then are avoiding a counter and higher speed, neither of which matter for MU since this is H1.

By the way, thanks for being so kind as to take the time to show me how to use staves. There's no way I could ever figure it out by myself.

Edited July 9, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Vicious Sal]

I'll really make this my last reply about this, I had only two things to react to:

"it has something so fantastic that the minor flaws pale to nothingness because of it."

And In my rating and explanation i tell you why for every single character in the game i find it a serious enough issue to deduct 0.1 from the score. This isn't just MU. it's every unit. The only unit who has a niche so great it makes even that combo redundant is Hammerne.

and:

"By the way, thanks for being so kind as to take the time to show me how to use staves. There's no way I could ever figure it out by myself. "

MU and a lo of the characters bend the game over their knees, true. But hammerne is something that doesn't only do that, it allows it to be done more often, more reliable, more efficient, and faster.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Vicious Sal

[bottlegnomes]

And In my rating and explanation i tell you why for every single character in the game i find it a serious enough issue to deduct 0.1 from the score. This isn't just MU. it's every unit. The only unit who has a niche so great it makes even that combo redundant is Hammerne.

Evidently only staffbots can ever be "perfect units."

MU and a lo of the characters bend the game over their knees, true. But hammerne is something that doesn't only do that, it allows it to be done more often, more reliable, more efficient, and faster.

I think you missed the point of that sentence.

[Darros]

10/10 means it's perfect, that it either has no flaws, or it has something so fantastic that the minor flaws pale to nothingness because of it.

...no it doesn't. 10/10 means the best in the game, as in there's nothing better. Even by your logic MU should get a 10/10, how is berserker/horseman not having Nosferatu a minor flaw? You're basically saying "MU breaks the game and is amazing but he doesn't break the game in X way"

[Vicious Sal]

...no it doesn't. 10/10 means the best in the game, as in there's nothing better. Even by your logic MU should get a 10/10, how is berserker/horseman not having Nosferatu a minor flaw? You're basically saying "MU breaks the game and is amazing but he doesn't break the game in X way"

Even by my logic Mu should get a ten? No he doesn't, by 10/10 = best in the game MU still gets his 9.9, because Malliesia = 10/10. You can reread my ratings for those.

Oh, and for this:

Evidently only staffbots can ever be "perfect units."

A few ratings taken from the Malliesia thread.

"Breaks the game. 10/10 Haar but with staves. "

"10 because she shatters the game in a tiny' date=' fat little hand with her staffery,"[/size']

"10/10 Hammernes your goddamn Rescue and Warp staves"

"She is indeed the Cleric counterpart to Haar."

None were mine, left the bias parts out since i didn't use bias at all here anyway in the rest of my posts.

Also, why again did this end up being such a big discussion about 0.1 point? It's not like I have been arguing Malliesia > MU for in the thread, although I do think that myself off, but i know i'm alone in that anyway. But it's just been me defending my opinion, we haven't done a single thing about the thread except arguing about that 0.1 point.

So I now really am not going to argue about it anymore. Let's actually start with debating if units are to high/low.

[bottlegnomes]

crap from Mal's rating

How does that in any way respond to my comment?

So I now really am not going to argue about it anymore. Let's actually start with debating if units are to high/low.

You keep using that [phrase]. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Edited July 9, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Bryan]

I'm wanting to up him one point because 9.99 looks stupid, not because I don't think your vote matters.

I personally prefer to keep my units in the same classes. Weapon ranks are aweeeesome.

Personally, I think MU should be one of the only units to have a 10.0 rating, but that's just my opinion.

[Peppy]

Okay... I may put up a Poll whether MU Stays 9.99 or is bumped up to 10.00. The one with more votes wins...

[Bryan]

Okay... I may put up a Poll whether MU Stays 9.99 or is bumped up to 10.00. The one with more votes wins...

Aweeeesome.

FE13's MU will probably get a 10.0 rating too. I don't think there's a better unit.

[Peppy]

All right. I put up the poll. The voting ends on July 13th, 2100-2200 EST!

[Vicious Sal]

All right. I put up the poll. The voting ends on July 13th, 2100-2200 EST!

For starters, I'm done with debating with you bottle, I must I had fun doing that as well, now my attention is more to richter

Cheers man, so you don't want to throw my vote out on your own, so you just want to have other people back you up for this. You know that I am the only one who gave a 9.9. I gave a page and a half long discussion about why I supported my rating. And now we are holding a poll that isn't even going to change the position of characters on the list.

That's just a fucking low blow. MU is rated the highest on the list. and the reasoning for changing the score? 9.99 doesn't seems pretty.

"I'm wanting to up him one point because 9.99 looks stupid, not because I don't think your vote matters."

Thanks for just saying "I actually want to just throw his vote out, but i want to do it in the most immature way possible"

It's a topic for debating whether or not units are supposed to be lowered or highered. Not some fucking poll to change a score that was tallied right.

"- Votes need some explanation regarding their gameplay performance to be counted."

I think i gave about 1.5 pages of explanation, i was going to say "dare you not count my vote", but as a i can see, you aren't even holding by your rules of "- I withhold the privilege to tell you your rating is bogus and demand you revise it if it breaks any of the above. I will not throw out votes anonymously, you will be informed and given a chance to revise.". You just don't answer me and go ahead and open a poll.

"This was such a long RTU Series but it's finally done. Bitch about the ratings in this thread, It's over!"

BITCH ABOUT THE RATING. AND YOU OPEN A POLL.

Fuck you man, that's just low. Cant even say in my face you want to throw my vote out.

Edited July 11, 2012 by Vicious Sal

[Bryan]

[bitching]

Fuck you man, that's just low. Cant even say in my face you want to throw my vote out.

Wow, you don't have to get so heated about this. I don't need you attacking me and the topic creator because you feel personally violated because you were the only person who didn't give him a ten. Fun fact, I didn't even know who you were. I didn't know only one person voted anything less than a ten.

MU can be anything you want him to be. Fem!Myrm, sure! Male!DarkMage, sure! Beserker, sure! Staffbot, sure! You can customize his growths to make the game easier. You want him to use tomes? You want him to use Swords? You want him to use Bows? He can do anything you want at base. I don't see how that deserves anything less than a ten. Why should any unit get punished because they need to be a magic/melee hybrid? This isn't FE13 with unlimited leveling. Characters only have 40 levels. And when you have 40 levels with amazing growths + amazing bases, AND you can use any weapon in the game? (Sure, other units can reclass, but MU gets to pick at the beginning.)

Please, this is the internet. I suggested moving MU up to a 10 as a joke mostly, and I only reposted it because I saw others agreed. Please, don't hate.

[Vicious Sal]

Wow, you don't have to get so heated about this. I don't need you attacking me and the topic creator because you feel personally violated because you were the only person who didn't give him a ten. Fun fact, I didn't even know who you were. I didn't know only one person voted anything less than a ten.

MU can be anything you want him to be. Fem!Myrm, sure! Male!DarkMage, sure! Beserker, sure! Staffbot, sure! You can customize his growths to make the game easier. You want him to use tomes? You want him to use Swords? You want him to use Bows? He can do anything you want at base. I don't see how that deserves anything less than a ten. Why should any unit get punished because they need to be a magic/melee hybrid? This isn't FE13 with unlimited leveling. Characters only have 40 levels. And when you have 40 levels with amazing growths + amazing bases, AND you can use any weapon in the game? (Sure, other units can reclass, but MU gets to pick at the beginning.)

Please, this is the internet. I suggested moving MU up to a 10 as a joke mostly, and I only reposted it because I saw others agreed. Please, don't hate.

It's not as to that i don't find it okay for him to be pumped up to a ten, but if that's happening, Elieson should follow it by his own rules through debate. By setting up a poll I just find that insulting towards me. I had a discussion, a fun one at that, and now, this topic, which is meant for debate and arguing, throws in a poll. In my opinion, that's just... no.

I'm ok with MU getting a ten, as long as the reason behind it is good, opening a poll in a debate topic... I hope you can see what is wrong about that.

I'm not going to discuss anything about MU, you can read yourself why I didn't give him a ten, and i'm not reciting that.

It's like.. you have a discussion in school, if you should have a 5 or a 6, you have this great argument with the teacher, you both give good reasons. And then he just grabs a kid from the halway and says: Should he get a five or a six? It makes the entire discussion redundant, which isn't supposed to happen in a topic designed for discussion. And the way you get whatever grade it is is just wrong.

Edited July 10, 2012 by Vicious Sal

[Bryan]

It's not as to that i don't find it okay for him to be pumped up to a ten, but if that's happening, Elieson should follow it by his own rules through debate. By setting up a poll I just find that insulting towards me. I had a discussion, a fun one at that, and now, this topic, which is meant for debate and arguing, throws in a poll. In my opinion, that's just... no.

I'm ok with MU getting a ten, as long as the reason behind it is good, opening a poll in a debate topic... I hope you can see what is wrong about that.

I'm not going to discuss anything about MU, you can read yourself why I didn't give him a ten, and i'm not reciting that.

A poll is the perfect way to decide which side of the debate won. You debated, they debated, now there's the decision, which is done with a poll.