Brainstorm: The important of each stat.

[Jimmy_Smith]

What do you thinks each stat should be weight? in term of balance?

Let say, you will make FE game and you try to make 2 characters to be balance.

Character A has 1 more Spd but Character B has more HP, how much HP is a fair trade?

EX. My rough formula look like this, but what about your?

1 Spd = 1.5 Str, Def = 3 Skl, Luk = 4 HP, Res

[Parrhesia]

Try to balance them by how they actually perform. Just throwing up stats like that won't be helpful in the slightest; besides, stats don't exist in a vaccuum. For, say, a myrmidon, every point of skill and speed gets diminishing returns, and they really, really want strength. If you have a character facing crit rates from generics, they'd take 3 luck over 1 speed any day of the week.

[Jimmy_Smith]

Try to balance them by how they actually perform. Just throwing up stats like that won't be helpful in the slightest; besides, stats don't exist in a vaccuum. For, say, a myrmidon, every point of skill and speed gets diminishing returns, and they really, really want strength. If you have a character facing crit rates from generics, they'd take 3 luck over 1 speed any day of the week.

That why I need a "reasonable" trade formula (FE game really one)

If a character facing crit rates from generics, they'd take 3 luck over 1 speed any day of the week.

Then if the trade is 1 Spd for 2 or 1 Luk? Is that still ok?

I didn't want to prove I'm right or anything, If possible I prefer to be wrong in this manner and get a better formula from this brainstorm.

And thanks for your input Furetchen, I'm looking forword to your FE hack project in FEE3 and FE7 rebalance patch

[47948201]

1 speed for 1-2 luck doesn't necessarily make it better; a unit, then, getting DOUBLED by generics but that has no problem with criticals will gladly take the speed.

It would probably be best to, if anything, make a bunch of curves showing relative stats. Or, if nothing else, give different equivalents for different classes.

[CT075]

That why I need a "reasonable" trade formula (FE game really one)

it doesn't exist

you need to look at characters in context instead of just looking at them in a vacuum

it just doesn't work that way

for example

Character A is doubled all the time but hits really hard - one speed may be worth way more than two extra strength

Character B doubles everything has strength issues - much rather have strength since any extra speed is unnecessary

how do you intend to combine these two cases

(hint: you can't)

[Sunwoo]

To add onto Cam's example, let me throw two units at you: Guy and Oswin, both from FE7.

Guy's a swordmaster. He's dodgy and can double pretty much everything for pretty much forever, but his strength is ... far from great. Guy would rather have strength than any more skill and speed, because he can usually double 99% of enemies without needing to constantly get speed. If he had to decide between defense and luck, he would rather take luck because he wants to dodge, not get hit.

Oswin's an armor knight. He has speed problems, but he hits hard and can tank. But because his speed is low, he will generally only hit once. In early game, it's enough to 1HKO certain enemies, but later on he's going to not be able to 1HKO as reliably, if at all. He would rather take some extra speed to be able to double the slower stuff instead of taking more strength because it'd just be overkill. Also, Oswin would prefer to take defense over luck. Unlike Guy, who should be dodging, Oswin should be tanking. Critical hits from non-magic enemies? Who cares, when they do 0 damage normally anyway?

[dondon151]

Character A is doubled all the time but hits really hard - one speed may be worth way more than two extra strength

actually 2 extra str may bring him past an OHKO threshold

[I don't play for turns]

I agree with Furetchen. For Dart, one point of skill is worth equal to or more than one point of strength, where with Guy one point of strength is worth something like 3 points of skill, and both crave defense while Oswin could throw away five points in return for only 2 or 3 points of speed. Same with characters in other games. Also, it depends on what game. I've heard that skill is far more important in FE6 than any other game, and resistance in FE11 is less important, while you can ttrade whatever stats you want in FE8 because it's FE8.

Edit: Meh, what the heck.

On offense:

1. Enough attack to take away half of most opponents HP stat.

2. Enough speed to double.

3. Enough skill to hit.

you can now ORKO effectively, making you an offensively good unit

For defense, it's tricky. As said before, avoid or defense varies depending on the character. however:

1. Defense so that most enemies won't do up to one third of your HP

2. HP so vice versa with defense.

3. Luck that can complement the speed mentioned before so you can dodge, say, 1 out of every three or four shots.

4. enough resistance so that mages don't take away half of your HP (I believe this is where a normal teen would say "LOLresistance)

I don't know if these defenses would be poop, amazing, or whatever, they're just random numbers. I didn't include speed because it had already been mentioned in offense. These numbers can be replaced to make it realistic.

Edited July 26, 2012 by I don't play for turns

[Progenitus]

this whole topic is highly dependent on stats for other PCs and enemies. there's no real formula, but there is a general pecking order for stats, point for point, which usually follows...

Spd til you can double > Damaging stat (Str/Mag) > Def > Excess Spd > Str until you don't lose AS on casters > Lck > Skl > Res > HP > Extra Str/Mag on casters/physical respectively

[Paperblade]

this also falls apart when you consider stats aren't the same from game to game

Skill is a much better stat in FE5 because it gives Crit at a 1:1 ratio and PC raises that further, whereas it's pretty bad in FE11 because weapon hit is through the roof anyway

Plus as mentioned above stat values change. For example, Def/Res get better the more you have of them due to the way damage works (and as a result are worse when enemy attack is higher like in FE12)

Edited July 25, 2012 by Paperblade

[Anouleth]

this also falls apart when you consider stats aren't the same from game to game

Skill is a much better stat in FE5 because it gives Crit at a 1:1 ratio and PC raises that further, whereas it's pretty bad in FE11 because weapon hit is through the roof anyway

In FE5, there's also a 1RN system, so you don't get dramatically diminishing returns on skill like you do in other games. And it affects some skills too, like the sword skills.

[marcus90]

To me a good character is this:

High HP

High Attack

Low skill

High Speed

Moderate Luck

Moderate Defense

Moderate Resistance

Weapons: Sword + Axe

Precision + Power

[47948201]

To me a good character is this:

High HP

High Attack

Low skill

High Speed

Moderate Luck

Moderate Defense

Moderate Resistance

Weapons: Sword + Axe

Precision + Power

I'm sorry, but I don't understand.

[arvilino]

Another problem in correlating them is the interactions between stats. For example Skill is better when speed is also higher as the chance for a critical in a round of combat will be higher when the unit is doubling and on the same case higher skill makes speed better as your unit as it makes the unit more likely to hit both times.

[Original Alear]

Jimmy, most of this topic is just hordes of mindless zombies with the same opinion, parroting off various examples as though more than one post was needed to inform you of their erroneous opinions regarding this important question. Take the advice of a real FE pro. The authoritative tradeoffs for stats are:

FE1/3:

4 STR = 5 SKL = 6 SPD = 7 LCK = 3 DEF = 7 RES = 9 HP = 4 MOV

(also may equal 5 Weapon level but the wlvl manual is not as liquid an asset)

FE4:

3 MOV = 5 any others

FE5:

2 MAG, DEF, MOV = 3 LCK, SPD, STR, BLD, SKL = 7 HP

FE6-8, 11:

2 All others including CON = 7 HP

FE9-10, FE12:

2 All others including CON, WPN rank up = 7 HP

FE13:

Haven't played

Edited August 7, 2012 by L1049

[marcus90]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand.

A good character needs to survive the field and be powerful against the enemies, it doesn't care if he is not very precise, but if he gets sword that are very precise as a secondary weapons, that is good. Heroes are good to me, even if they get low skill.

[MacLovin]

I agree with Furetchen. For Dart, one point of skill is worth equal to or more than one point of strength, where with Guy one point of strength is worth something like 3 points of skill, and both crave defense while Oswin could throw away five points in return for only 2 or 3 points of speed. Same with characters in other games. Also, it depends on what game. I've heard that skill is far more important in FE6 than any other game, and resistance in FE11 is less important, while you can ttrade whatever stats you want in FE8 because it's FE8.

Edit: Meh, what the heck.

On offense:

1. Enough attack to take away half of most opponents HP stat.

2. Enough speed to double.

3. Enough skill to hit.

you can now ORKO effectively, making you an offensively good unit

For defense, it's tricky. As said before, avoid or defense varies depending on the character. however:

1. Defense so that most enemies won't do up to one third of your HP

2. HP so vice versa with defense.

3. Luck that can complement the speed mentioned before so you can dodge, say, 1 out of every three or four shots.

4. enough resistance so that mages don't take away half of your HP (I believe this is where a normal teen would say "LOLresistance)

I don't know if these defenses would be poop, amazing, or whatever, they're just random numbers. I didn't include speed because it had already been mentioned in offense. These numbers can be replaced to make it realistic.

Dart doesn't realy need +skl to growths, he just wants to take a skill book or two.

HHM Dart, not worth it.

I'm sorry, but I don't understand.

I don't either, swords are generally horrible in fe7 and afterwards.

[47948201]

@Marcus: I know I'm going a teeensy bit off-topic here, but you gave that unit low skill and axes, then called it "precise" (okay, you used the nominal form, but whatever), but now you're saying you don't care about precision?

I think precision is very important. Just ask almost any red units.

[Lord Raven]

Fe13 loves defense and resistance because enemies hit like a truck and magic users dominate the last couple chapters.

[Original Alear]

I'm not sure that the people posting in this topic understand what precision is in terms of statistics, which is presumably relevant when we are talking about the importance of stats. A unit that can never hit is as precise as a unit that never misses. One of the most precise units of all time in terms of damage in FE is the FE7 fire dragon, due to the piercing nature of flametongue. Dancers are extremely precise, as their dances never miss and (IIRC) never have any uncertain effects. Staves are by and large the most precise weapon type. Bronze weapons have high precision, not only because of high accuracy - which could occasionally reduce precision, though for PCs not often - but also because they cannot crit. A killer sword is probably frequently less precise than a steel axe, due to the critical bonus. As critical rate against an enemy increases, the precision of the units damage decreases until the 50% mark, after which precision increases as critical increases. While I'm not sure it's particularly relevant to Fire Emblem, any sort of unexpected offensive peak in a strategy game with a turn order divided between "all allies move" and "all enemies move" can result, especially in a situation where unit formations or terrains allow chokepoints and the enemy force includes weaker, but more numerous and less costly, in a unit eating more attacks than expected and dying.

That's not to say that accuracy, which is what is actually being discussed, is irrelevant.

Edited August 7, 2012 by L1049

[47948201]

But the unit described was both inaccurate and imprecise. I personally value precision over accuracy, though FE is somewhat founded on chance highs and lows :V

But I'm getting more off-topic with each post so I'll shut up now :X

[marcus90]

People here don't understand.

Why heroes ARE good classes usually?

Because they have high skill and power and speed, so they hit like trucks, while not being tanks to balance them out.

They have axes, that are not very precise, but are powerful, so if they have high skill that's better, but if they have low skill but high power? Go for swords, damnit.

Or warriors, too, way better than berserkers, cause they are the best archers around with the whopping strenght they have and bows are very precise so Steel Bow + Moderate/Low skill + High attack = Rape

[Refa]

Heroes usually don't use swords because they're accurate, well besides FE5 and possibly FE6 anyways.

[marcus90]

Heroes usually don't use swords because they're accurate, well besides FE5 and possibly FE6 anyways.

What do they use sword for then?

[Original Alear]

What do they use sword for then?

In FE6, accuracy is more important than it is in a lot of other games. In FE5, weapon might matters less for a number of units since they proc criticals quite easily. Also, while axes and lances have javelin and hand axe and ranged master weapons, ranged, magic melee weapons are quite good and locked to swords.

(NOTE-I might have totally blown it XD)

Edited August 7, 2012 by L1049