To prove Titania hogs exp

[bottlegnomes]

In your opinion. I haven't read them so I can't say. In my opinion, your arguments for Tormod > Calill aren't very well backed up, but we're not getting into that again. I don't really see the point in jumping on him about a statement made in passing that was intended to stimulate discussion in the tier thread, thus actually accomplishing something, unlike insulting the TC, not that you've necessarily done that, but people have.

That said, I do think he's being a bit extreme in saying it hurts to even deploy her after chapter 11, because like dondon said, how many units are you ever actually deploying in a chapter that using Titania means someone better gets left out?

So let him have his PT and find his results.

Wow, I'm actually arguing against people being antagonistic. This is weird.

[Snowy_One]

No, they were wrong. It's one thing to have outdated standards, but as I recall, many older tier lists were atrocious at actually applying those standards in any rigorous way. I remember the days of bottom tier Syrene, of FE10 Soren being considered good, and so on. There are still people who defend characters that seem to us, undefendable under anything but the most warped tier list standards imaginable (like Wendy, who barely beats Treck in 20/20 stats).

It's fine to have different standards. The problem is that when you get down to the bones of the issue, most people really do apply efficiency standards, even if it's in a different way or inconsistently, or they don't call it that for fear of association with inflexible tier list standards. Killing enemies is good. Completing chapters is good. Not dying is good. Reaching objectives quickly is good. Even you agree with all of this.

I remember the days when Rolf wasn't near the bottom of the FE9 tier list ya young whippersnapper!

Joking aside, I agree. A lot of tier list standards/rulings were warped, applied incorrectly, inconsistently, and so-forth. However it is important to remember that such a thing MUST be kept guard for even when things seem set. All it takes is some new person bringing in some new idea that alters one aspect of the game in even a minor way to expose some inconsistency that was previously unknown and unnoticed. Maybe tomorrow someone will finally figure out how Shade works, or find some new strategy using provoke that allows turns that couldn't be shaven off previously to be removed, or one of many other things that can affect standings.

So basically, you want the scope of the tier lists to be even narrower, right after complaining that they're too specialised? You want the tier list to focus like a laser on the absolute minimum turncount possible, in which Titania is not useful because she lacks the weight to contribute meaningfully to a 2 turn strategy on 17-2? And really, Aeine is not the first person to consider Titania being below Marcia/Jill, so don't act like this is some dramatic paradigm shift.

Remember, to me, the current tier list which assumes specific strategies in order to complete the game as fast as possible is, already, a LTC tier. You can argue differently, possibly even be right, but my perception of it isn't going to change until something about the list does. Also, remember I've seen the 'Titania is da best' dogma for a long time now, even when she wasn't placed at the top of the lists. There has always been people who believe her to be the best unit in the game (and before you start saying I want her at the top, IMO Oscar or Ike is the best, not Mia) and, even if right, it's so nauseating to see people put her on some pedestal where questioning her as the best means your stupid. That's not science or testing, it's shutting down a heresy. It Titania is the best or not has become irrelevant as people who disagree with her position are tossed aside. Could be anything like 'Is Lyre the best' or 'Rolf the worst' or 'Mia is a better cook than Titania'. So long as it's considered stupid to question, something is wrong.

[Anouleth]

There has been little to no serious discussion about Titania being the top of the tier list in recent times, from what I can see in the FE9 tier list search for "Titania", so yes you are being stubborn and are completely conforming to an idea simply because it is like a time honoured tradition when frankly we haven't even discovered if the notion that Titania is best simply because of her earlygame matures like a fine wine or rots like a freshly picked strawberry.

Practical evidence is the best way forward for this tier list at this point as we've simply argued this game to death. Regardless of the result it will be useful to have this as a reference.

Even if Aeine proves this thing (and I don't see why it wouldn't be true), it would have zero impact on the tier list.

That being said, I have noticed that Titania actually is in her own tier on the tier list. I think that at least should change.

Why are we arguing about his methods for testing his Titania hypothesis before he has even outlined exactly what they are going to be, let alone tested them?

Oh, I don't fucking know, maybe because that's the whole point of this thread?

"If anyone has suggestions on how to make the playthrough's goal more valid, feel free to post. "

What Aeine said in the very first post.

Remember, to me, the current tier list which assumes specific strategies in order to complete the game as fast as possible is, already, a LTC tier.

No, it isn't. What specific strategy is assumed by the tier list? Please, do tell me, because I try not to assume specific strategies when talking about the tier list.

You can argue differently, possibly even be right, but my perception of it isn't going to change until something about the list does. Also, remember I've seen the 'Titania is da best' dogma for a long time now, even when she wasn't placed at the top of the lists. There has always been people who believe her to be the best unit in the game (and before you start saying I want her at the top, IMO Oscar or Ike is the best, not Mia)

I really don't see how anyone can think Oscar is better. Even at really high levels (like, 20/15 Oscar and 20/20 Titania), he doesn't beat her. Ike is meh in earlygame and midgame... and I wouldn't really consider him better until he gets Ragnell.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Anouleth

[Hawk King]

Aeine's theory is 100% correct. When playing for Maximum LTC, Titania just does not save any turns past Chapter 11, therefore, using her will actually "rob" other units of Cexp. She gets a tiny fraction of the Cexp that Oscar and Kieran get and she simply cannot rescue drop Mordy like they can. Lets look at each Chapter past 11.

12- Super Marcia flys out to the boss. Tits not necessary.

13- Defend map. can be done early in 7 turns. Tits not necessary.

14- Marcia go! Tits not necessary.

15- See above

16- Marcia takes Ike to the throne. Tits is only needed to get the full guard. No combat needed. Just her rescue, canto, and movement.

17- Lots of Marcia shove chains. Oscar and Kieran can rescue Mordy, Tits cant.

18- Hello Tanith, Stoned Reyson escorted by Marcia, Oscar, Kieran, and Tanith charge. Tits is the "odd man out"

19- Super Marcia 1 turn clear. Tits not necessary.

20- Siege tome the boss, Marcia arrives. Tits not necessary.

Shall I go on? When is Titania necessary for LTC past 11???

[Lord Raven]

No one is saying she is. Stop bring it up. She's just not a hindrance either if she is being used, despite the fact that other units get higher exp gains.

[Hawk King]

Well she kinda is a hinderance. If she is used too much, Oscar and Kieran will get less Cexp. If they get less Cexp, then they need more Bexp in order to promote in time for 17-2. If they use more Bexp then there is less Bexp to go around for all of your other units later on. Its a snowball effect.

Even though there is a ton of Bexp in this game, it's stupid to just piss it away.

Dropping Titania from the team after Chapter 11 is the most Exp efficient thing you can do in this game.

[Lord Raven]

I had them promoted by 17-2 and i used titania and a plethora of units that took bexp away from kieran/oscar (including but not limited to makalov, astrid, tormod, boyd, soren), your point is heavily exaggerated and false

i don't care if he does this run or not, but I did my own run and my main shortcomings were personal strategies, since levels were generally fine

[dondon151]

Well she kinda is a hinderance. If she is used too much, Oscar and Kieran will get less Cexp. If they get less Cexp, then they need more Bexp in order to promote in time for 17-2. If they use more Bexp then there is less Bexp to go around for all of your other units later on. Its a snowball effect.

but the question is if it makes any noticeable difference

and usually in these cases, the answer is no.

[Snowy_One]

No, it isn't. What specific strategy is assumed by the tier list? Please, do tell me, because I try not to assume specific strategies when talking about the tier list.

12- Super Marcia flys out to the boss. Tits not necessary.

13- Defend map. can be done early in 7 turns. Tits not necessary.

14- Marcia go! Tits not necessary.

15- See above

16- Marcia takes Ike to the throne. Tits is only needed to get the full guard. No combat needed. Just her rescue, canto, and movement.

17- Lots of Marcia shove chains. Oscar and Kieran can rescue Mordy, Tits cant.

18- Hello Tanith, Stoned Reyson escorted by Marcia, Oscar, Kieran, and Tanith charge. Tits is the "odd man out"

19- Super Marcia 1 turn clear. Tits not necessary.

20- Siege tome the boss, Marcia arrives. Tits not necessary.

If Marcia isn't used or screwed, if these units in general aren't used, if the strategies suggested here aren't used, the entire chapter and game changes. There is nothing 'wrong' with giving credit to Marcia for being able to complete these chapters faster (though I still highly question if speed-running the game should allow for rewards at all) but when Titania can't get credit because ANOTHER unit COMPLETELY unrelated to her *might* be beating the chapter fast, there is a HUGE problem in my eyes. Yea, I still think people worship her too much, but I won't sell out my ideals on how a list should be made over petty dislikes of a unit.

I really don't see how anyone can think Oscar is better. Even at really high levels (like, 20/15 Oscar and 20/20 Titania), he doesn't beat her. Ike is meh in earlygame and midgame... and I wouldn't really consider him better until he gets Ragnell.

The way I see it is that Titania is an average unit on the whole renowed for one thing alone, her starting. Later in the game Ike gains access to powerful skills (Aether or Wrath/resolve alone are impressive) and great avoid. Likewise, Oscar has superior avoid and manages to come out on top. As the early game chapters are fairly easy on the whole (Marcia's chapter is the only one I have trouble with thanks to Marcia), Titania's early game is worth less to me than the later game when things can become easier to screw up, making Oscar better than Titania.

Disagree with me if you like, that's fine, but this is a matter of personal opinion. I outright said 'in my own opinion' when I said I considered Oscar better.

[Hawk King]

@ Lord Raven

No, you are the one who is exaggerating my point. This idea that Titania hogs Exp is true, however it is an extremely minor point and only amounts to a few hundred Bexp. However, if you can get identical turn counts, and use less Bexp why wouldn't you?

How can you play efficiently if you aren't using Bexp efficiently?

@ dondon

In terms of turn counts, it makes no difference. The difference is in the Exp gains, and Bexp consumption.

[Lord Raven]

@ Lord Raven

No, you are the one who is exaggerating my point. This idea that Titania hogs Exp is true, however it is an extremely minor point and only amounts to a few hundred Bexp. However, if you can get identical turn counts, and use less Bexp why wouldn't you?

How can you play efficiently if you aren't using Bexp efficiently?

Because you're playing fast and reliably. That's plenty efficient. Nobody is even commenting on BEXP, because you use BEXP on other units and not titania which is the point of what most of us are arguing anyway -_-

[Anouleth]

Aeine's theory is 100% correct. When playing for Maximum LTC, Titania just does not save any turns past Chapter 11, therefore, using her will actually "rob" other units of Cexp.

You know, this has pretty serious implications. If Titania saves no turns after Chapter 11, what does that mean for Kieran? Because that means Kieran only saves one turn, chapter 17-2, and needs a hefty chunk of BEXP/CEXP to do even that. Are you suggesting that Kieran needs to move down on the tier list?

[Hawk King]

I've never actually played for maximum LTC but im thinking there is at least 1 other time Kieran rescuing mordy is relevant.

Are you suggesting the tier list should be based off of how many turns a unit saves in a maximum LTC playthrough? Regardless, Kieran is useful in any Chapter where stoned Reyson is escourted by 4 paladin/fliers. Chapter 18 for example. Yeah sure, Titania handle the task but Kieran is going to have better stats.

The only tier list changes I could see would be removing the Titania tier, and having Titania in the same tier as Marcia. Well, Jill might need to fall... She costs turns and is never able to make them back up. Marcia saves 6 turns in Chapter 12 alone.

[bottlegnomes]

You know, this has pretty serious implications. If Titania saves no turns after Chapter 11, what does that mean for Kieran? Because that means Kieran only saves one turn, chapter 17-2, and needs a hefty chunk of BEXP/CEXP to do even that. Are you suggesting that Kieran needs to move down on the tier list?

Problem with that is that while that would be true of Kieran, it would be true of every other unit too. So Kieran might only ever save 1 turn, but everyone else would save even less.

I guess the tier list should go like this:

High (in no particular order)

Jill

Marcia

Titania

Low

Kieran and Oscar

Bottom

Everyone else

[Chiki]

BEXP data so far:

Chapter 8: 1510 points > 1383 points

Ike from level 5 to level 6

Mia from level 6 to level 7

Boyd from level 5 to level 6

Oscar from level 8 to level 9

Chapter 9: 1433 points > 1370 points

Ike from level 6 to level 7

Oscar from level 11 to level 12

Mia from level 7 to level 8

Ilyana from level 6 to level 7

Chapter 10: 1670 points > 251 points

Marcia from level 5 to level 18

Chapter 11: 571 points > 68 points

Marcia from level 18 to level 1

Ike from level 7 to level 8

Oscar from level 13 to level 14

Ilyana from level 8 to level 9

Kieran from level 12 to level 13

Not looking good so far. Ike is only level 8 and he needs to be near 20 by Chapter 17.

but the question is if it makes any noticeable difference

and usually in these cases, the answer is no.

At least 1 turn of difference in 17-2.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Sirius

[Hawk King]

How is it not looking good? You get 1500 Bexp for a pacifist clear of Chapter 15. And 7 turns to feed Ike kills in Chapter 13. Or are you planning on Ike getting 20 MAG again?

[Chiki]

How is it not looking good? You get 1500 Bexp for a pacifist clear of Chapter 15. And 7 turns to feed Ike kills in Chapter 13. Or are you planning on Ike getting 20 MAG again?

Ike can only get 1 or 2 kills in Chapter 13, unfortunately, because Oscar, Kieran and Marcia are going to get the vast majority of kills. The area needs to be clear so Volke and Sothe can safely open chests.

Oscar and Kieran need those kills more than Ike does.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Aeine

[Mekkah]

Well, Jill might need to fall... She costs turns and is never able to make them back up. Marcia saves 6 turns in Chapter 12 alone.

The tier list does not factor in recruitment costs, nor does it strictly care about turns.

Btw if Titania hogs EXP past Ch11 that Oscar and Kieran need, we should also penalize Oscar for hogging EXP that Kieran needs and vice versa, as well as any other unit that's seeing combat. ~_~

[Chiki]

The tier list does not factor in recruitment costs, nor does it strictly care about turns.

Btw if Titania hogs EXP past Ch11 that Oscar and Kieran need, we should also penalize Oscar for hogging EXP that Kieran needs and vice versa, as well as any other unit that's seeing combat. ~_~

Why? Oscar and Kieran are both necessary for chapters like 17-2 and 27. They work as a duo to be successful, not as lone units.

It's perfectly possible to use both of them and get both of them promoted by 17-2, but it's impossible to use Titania, Oscar and Kieran and have them promoted. That's what I'm trying to prove.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Aeine

[Lord Raven]

Ike can only get 1 or 2 kills in Chapter 13, unfortunately, because Oscar, Kieran and Marcia are going to get the vast majority of kills. The area needs to be clear so Volke and Sothe can safely open chests.

Oscar and Kieran need those kills more than Ike does.

You'll be alright. I used Makalov, Astrid, Tormod, Boyd, Soren, and Jill on top of who you're using and Ike made it to Level 20 by 17-4. I did have the stealth BEXP but giving Makalov, Boyd, and Astrid that BEXP completely burned it off. Ike was Level 10 or something coming out of chapter 11 for me as well.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Chiki]

You'll be alright. I used Makalov, Astrid, Tormod, Boyd, Soren, and Jill on top of who you're using and Ike made it to Level 20 by 17-4. I did have the stealth BEXP but giving Makalov, Boyd, and Astrid that BEXP completely burned it off. Ike was Level 10 or something coming out of chapter 11 for me as well.

Sorry, but your playthrough is totally different from mine and they can't even be compared. I've done this same playthrough twice before and couldn't even get Ike to level 20 in either of them, and barely got Kieran and Oscar promoted by 17-1.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Aeine

[Anouleth]

Problem with that is that while that would be true of Kieran, it would be true of every other unit too. So Kieran might only ever save 1 turn, but everyone else would save even less.

I guess the tier list should go like this:

High (in no particular order)

Jill

Marcia

Titania

Low

Kieran and Oscar

Bottom

Everyone else

Pretty sure Calill, Mist, Mordecai, Tanith, Haar, Reyson, Elincia, Muarim, Boyd, Shinon, Gatrie, Ike, apparently Ilyana, and Volke all save a non-zero number of turns, and Oscar certainly saves more turns than Kieran does.

Why? Oscar and Kieran are both necessary for chapters like 17-2 and 27. They work as a duo to be successful, not as lone units.

It's perfectly possible to use both of them and get both of them promoted by 17-2, but it's impossible to use Titania, Oscar and Kieran and have them promoted. That's what I'm trying to prove.

If you use Titania, Oscar, and Kieran, and in Chapter 17, Kieran is still unpromoted (level 19 let's say) is that Titania's "fault" or Oscar's "fault"? How do we assign blame? What about the other units that took experience?

Edited July 29, 2012 by Sirius

[Chiki]

If you use Titania, Oscar, and Kieran, and in Chapter 17, Kieran is still unpromoted (level 19 let's say) is that Titania's "fault" or Oscar's "fault"? How do we assign blame? What about the other units that took experience?

Titania's fault, because:

1. Oscar needs the exp, unlike Titania. Oscar + Kieran need to work as a duo for the turn cut.

2. It's perfectly possible to use Kieran and Oscar and have both of them just be ready to promote by 17-1. But it's not possible to use Titania, Kieran and Oscar and have both of them be ready to promote by 17-1.

And as for the other units that take the experiience, Mia/Ilyana/Ike only take the leftover ones that Kieran and Oscar wouldn't bother to get, while Marcia makes up for it by cutting an absurd amount of turns just by herself.

[bottlegnomes]

Pretty sure Calill, Mist, Mordecai, Tanith, Haar, Reyson, Elincia, Muarim, Boyd, Shinon, Gatrie, Ike, apparently Ilyana, and Volke all save a non-zero number of turns,

Meh.

and Oscar certainly saves more turns than Kieran does.

BUT IF TITANIA'S SOLOING EVERYTHING HOW IS OSCAR EVER GOING TO DO ANYTHING SO HOW COULD HE POSSIBLY SAVE MORE TURNS THAN KIERAN!!1!111!!1!!1!11!11!1!!1!!1!!

[Florete]

Has the amount of turns Titania saves by "stealing" this experience been taken into account yet?