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Eltoshen

Gender in Society

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Did a pair really matter that much to warrant bringing them up?

Seeing as someone else I know of wound up suspended for it. . .yeah.

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teehee This is gonna be an amusing thread. >w>

Any who.

Just depends how you're raised and what you observe in your surroundings. There's a reason why both genders gravitate toward gender "appropriate" things. It's just the way we were raised. After that it's up to the individual to decide what is and is not appropriate. Then again social pressures are a thing. I feel like I'm rambling on so whatevs.

Actually, that's not true. Gender identity is formed by more than just "the way you are raised": you can't raise a boy to be a girl. There have been cases of babies with genital abnormalities (almost always male) being given gender reassignment surgery and then raised as the opposite gender, and they usually end up identifying as their original gender.

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Actually, that's not true. Gender identity is formed by more than just "the way you are raised": you can't raise a boy to be a girl. There have been cases of babies with genital abnormalities (almost always male) being given gender reassignment surgery and then raised as the opposite gender, and they usually end up identifying as their original gender.

That really just goes to show that people have less control over things than they think is all.

To which I transition into my thought that basically biologically, socially, the idea of a gender role is kinda silly. I would even go so far as to say that trying to identify oneself as a specific gender is poisonous in and of itself. It instills a style of thinking that "f I act this way, I must be this". It's basically trying to think too hard on something like a title. It would be better to just derive what appeals to you and learn from it rather than try to fit into a mold.

Then again, I'm kind of an oddball as it is. So, maybe that's just me.

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Actually, that's not true. Gender identity is formed by more than just "the way you are raised": you can't raise a boy to be a girl. There have been cases of babies with genital abnormalities (almost always male) being given gender reassignment surgery and then raised as the opposite gender, and they usually end up identifying as their original gender.

Care to explain what this "identity" was, then? What was "it" that someone could actually believe they were?

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That really just goes to show that people have less control over things than they think is all.

To which I transition into my thought that basically biologically, socially, the idea of a gender role is kinda silly. I would even go so far as to say that trying to identify oneself as a specific gender is poisonous in and of itself. It instills a style of thinking that "f I act this way, I must be this". It's basically trying to think too hard on something like a title. It would be better to just derive what appeals to you and learn from it rather than try to fit into a mold.

Then again, I'm kind of an oddball as it is. So, maybe that's just me.

I agree with this. I find people should just act as what they're comfortable with instead of forcing themselves down the acceptable gender role that may as well do not suit them. I myself have a more "stereotypically male" mannerism despite being very much female biologically, and while I am perfectly fine with "Lumi's a dude" jokes and comments since it matters not to me (I make those jokes anyway myself since I find them harmless when I myself am the recipient of it), it's when people try to force me into the ascribed mannerisms of what people perceive to be feminine that it becomes a problem. I act the way I act because I'm comfortable with it, whether it's a architypically "masculine" or "feminine" act, it does not matter. I'm sick of people trying to sway me towards being "feminine" and feminine only. People should not be forced to act in a certain way just because they're born with a certain type of genitals.

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I agree with this. I find people should just act as what they're comfortable with instead of forcing themselves down the acceptable gender role that may as well do not suit them. I myself have a more "stereotypically male" mannerism despite being very much female biologically, and while I am perfectly fine with "Lumi's a dude" jokes and comments since it matters not to me (I make those jokes anyway myself since I find them harmless when I myself am the recipient of it), it's when people try to force me into the ascribed mannerisms of what people perceive to be feminine that it becomes a problem. I act the way I act because I'm comfortable with it, whether it's a architypically "masculine" or "feminine" act, it does not matter. I'm sick of people trying to sway me towards being "feminine" and feminine only. People should not be forced to act in a certain way just because they're born with a certain type of genitals.

I'd say this is true up until the most extreme of cases. If you have a guy that's more comfortable using the women's bathroom, should he be allowed in there, despite making most (if not all) the women in there uneasy? Or what about a woman who prefers walking around outside naked to the waist, despite certain states outlawing it?

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There's nothing in that article to suggest what the individual felt constituted its gender. Only that it chose, in the end, to be "male," as ambiguous as that sounds.

Because if Anouleth's case is meant to suggest that there are innate gender ideals in which an individual is based, they sure as hell better not be riddled with cultural affects of what constitutes male/female gender roles. Those are artificial constructs, ideals which are applied and taken from an outsider source, not from within. If an individual is to regress into an innate gender state, it should be something outside of acculturation, not within it.

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I'd say this is true up until the most extreme of cases. If you have a guy that's more comfortable using the women's bathroom, should he be allowed in there, despite making most (if not all) the women in there uneasy? Or what about a woman who prefers walking around outside naked to the waist, despite certain states outlawing it?

Yes, he should, actually. Ever heard of in-transition patients? Genetically men, but identify more with females and are in the process of taking hormones to change their gender (or visa verse)? Where should they go to use the restroom?

The purpose of restrooms it to take shits and piss, afterall; not to come to the decision as to whether you identify as a certain sex. The whole idea of separate rooms for 'males' and 'females' shouldn't exist. The whole basis of it assumes that all men are interested in is soliciting a female when really all they want to do is piss.

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Yes, he should, actually. Ever heard of in-transition patients? Genetically men, but identify more with females and are in the process of taking hormones to change their gender (or visa verse)? Where should they go to use the restroom?

The purpose of restrooms it to take shits and piss, afterall; not to come to the decision as to whether you identify as a certain sex. The whole idea of separate rooms for 'males' and 'females' shouldn't exist. The whole basis of it assumes that all men are interested in is soliciting a female when really all they want to do is piss.

Go where you'll end up creating the least amount of ruckus?

Part of using the bathroom involves undressing certain parts that aren't shown to the general public. If you honestly feel that you don't care if anyone sees your junk, more power to you. I'm not interested in dropping my pants in a bathroom with men, thankyouverymuch. Also, sources on that restroom assumption please.

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Stalls in America are designed such that you can see in them even if the door's closed.

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Stalls in America are designed such that you can see in them even if the door's closed.

That's a flaw with american restrooms in general. And I don't know what you identify as so I can't say I understand your position and opinions towards men, but that sounds just like straight men feeling uncomfortable around gay men.

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I put "female" as my gender for a reason.

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Stalls in America are designed such that you can see in them even if the door's closed.

That is still no reason to oppose people that are in-transition to enter the bathroom they feel most comfortable in. Besides, if they are in transition, then I'd assume they wouldn't be interested in women in a sexual way.

Also in the case of mixed bathrooms (as i can see it being the way of public bathrooms in the near future are likely to have doors that you can't see through them.

Edited by SlayerX

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Besides, if they are in transition, then I'd assume they wouldn't be interested in women in a sexual way.

While I'm gonna reserve on the bathroom discussion, this is not necessarily true. Being in transition isn't a sexuality thing. It's an identity thing. If a person was born a woman, and is attracted to men, but sees herself as a man and transitions to such biologically, he'd end up being a gay man.

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That is still no reason to oppose people that are in-transition to enter the bathroom they feel most comfortable in. Besides, if they are in transition, then I'd assume they wouldn't be interested in women in a sexual way.

Also in the case of mixed bathrooms (as i can see it being the way of public bathrooms in the near future are likely to have doors that you can't see through them.

I'm think I'm being misrepresented. ;/

I'm of the opinion that people in-transition should go where they're least likely to make a ruckus. If a woman's taking testosterone to the point where she has facial hair, she'd probably blend in better on the men's side. If someone can go either way, then whereever they're most comfortable.

I'm opposed to bathrooms being unisex.

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While I'm gonna reserve on the bathroom discussion, this is not necessarily true. Being in transition isn't a sexuality thing. It's an identity thing. If a person was born a woman, and is attracted to men, but sees herself as a man and transitions to such biologically, he'd end up being a gay man.

Alright my mistake, that still does not mean that people that feel they are women/men (not talking about homosexuals here just in general because not all homosexuals feel part of the opposite gender) should be excluded from entering the bathroom they feel most comfortable in. Should lesbian women be excluded from entering the women's bathroom? Should gay men be excluded from the men's bathroom?

Edit: I see your point now Eclipse. And i guess that paragraph i just wrote is rather redundant.

Edited by SlayerX

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Those are artificial constructs, ideals which are applied and taken from an outsider source, not from within.

Uh, what? Aliens didn't swoop down and give us gender roles. What is this "outsider source"?

If an individual is to regress into an innate gender state, it should be something outside of acculturation, not within it.

Why? David Reimer didn't grow up in a blank white room. He grew up in America, a place where there are cultural gender roles. He identified as a male: so he would have identified with the cultural associations of men too. Who the fuck knows what an "innate gender state" would even be? But we do know that some people identify as male, and some people identify as female, and it's not affected by what one they were brought up as.

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Should lesbian women be excluded from entering the women's bathroom? Should gay men be excluded from the men's bathroom?

No, lesbian women/gay men are still women/men and no one will know unless you shout it out at every bathroom you enter. Unless you're talking about transsexuals/transgender people, but that gets really complicated.

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No, lesbian women/gay men are still women/men and no one will know unless you shout it out at every bathroom you enter. Unless you're talking about transsexuals/transgender people, but that gets really complicated.

It was more or less a comment to respond to Eclipse's comments, which i was misinterpreting.

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