Gender in Society

[Rehab]

On pay disparity between genders; some people perhaps persist in the view that it's justified due to (obv bogus) prejudice against women's potential capability, but others simply think women need money less. ( )

So, come a long way, got a long way to go etc. But one thing the topic's kinda dodged around is the issues transgender people face. It's not the biggest group out there, but I think how they're treated reflects wider gender issues, and they definitely don't have the acceptance they deserve yet.

Some people treat them like they're participating in a Looney Tunes gag, dressing up for fun or to mess with the rest of us, and that they should cut the shit. Some travel laws, for example, restrict people from doing something on the lines of boarding an airplane if their gender doesn't match their identification, which can be a hell of a lot harder to change than necessary. People who can have parts of their brain function more like their mental gender than their given one, who sometimes experience phantom limbs, erections and all, are too often effectively told they're big faking babies.

I personally knew a fem-to-m person in high school, who could at times be utterly miserable and down on themselves, despite their amazing artistic talent, a fair-sized group of close, loving friends, and a big ole' school club the equivalent or better of a support group, and I know they aren't alone. Hell, I didn't have the best frame of mind about it myself when I first heard of it, despite not being overtly hateful.

Dys4ia, flash game on the subject I'd be remiss not to mention

Edited August 3, 2012 by Rehab

[Original Alear]

I put "female" as my gender for a reason.

Same here.

[Celice]

Uh, what? Aliens didn't swoop down and give us gender roles. What is this "outsider source"?

What is this universal trait of gender, if it doesn't stem from culture? Gender roles are constructs by which we understand the world around us, but that does not mean they are natural roles or roles which exist outside of our understanding. They are tools, created, not found.

Why? David Reimer didn't grow up in a blank white room. He grew up in America, a place where there are cultural gender roles. He identified as a male: so he would have identified with the cultural associations of men too. Who the fuck knows what an "innate gender state" would even be? But we do know that some people identify as male, and some people identify as female, and it's not affected by what one they were brought up as.

Precisely why the person wasn't brought up in a blank room is why they had a modified disposition. The gender role didn't stem from themselves, but was a learned concept. There's nothing to revert to--just something to accept; because of this, it's not correct to say he reverted to an "original" gender, as you put it. Gender roles are an act individuals play out dependent on their surrounding culture, thus its artificiality.

It would be nice if you brought up the examples you depended on, rather than resort to someone else's evidence. Or explain yourself, for that matter.

[Rehab]

Being it was a chan post somewhere, I couldn't post the exact anecdote, but somebody once said that despite being born physically female, at one point they learned they had something resembling traces of a nearly-formed penis in their body, I assume meaning they were nearly born male. What exactly that means, I'm not sure- people obviously latch onto gender identities very strongly, and may be incapable of changing them voluntarily, but I couldn't say whether that particularly matters in anything other than how they identify their gender, or if it's 100% biologically innate, or if that might even point to genders specifically not being biologically absolute.

I also remember a story on genes called Wnt4 and Fox L2 (not the exact one, but it seems to be the same subject), found in mammals and experimented on in mice, that acted almost like a "gender switch;" tinkering with it (pardon the no-doubt inaccurate scientific euphemism) could cause male mices' sex organs to disappear and to then differentiate into female sex organs instead, and vice versa. My interpretation of the observations could easily be wrong here, particularly, but if I understand correctly, the body somehow constantly checked the "status" of what was keeping its physical gender in place, and acted to "fix" itself if prompted. What exactly that did to the mouse's mind isn't my guess, but I would indeed like to hope it points to genders being biologically uncertain mental constructs, personally.

That said, the whole "phantom limb" thing kinda throws me for a loop, when trying to decide whether to argue to myself that genders might not be "real."

Edited August 3, 2012 by Rehab

[Snowy_One]

I doubt that there will ever be true equality. There will always be certain expectations of men and of women that won't be put onto the opposite gender. We can make things as legally gender-neutral as possible, but a culture change is needed for true equality, and men and women are simply too different.

For example, I'm sure you all know of the idea that the man is supposed to go out, make the first moves on a girl, take her out on dates, buy her jewelry, and then be the one who proposed. That is 'norm'. When was the last time you heard of a woman doing those things? Especially without being mocked? Why was it wrong for Peter to be with another woman when he had amnesia in Family Guy, but okay for Lois to do certain things to him when he decided to be chaste?

It's more than just 'the unfair sex' trope though. But what that trope does highlight is that there are very real differences between the genders that are in our culture. How could we achieve true equality in our culture? I don't think it is possible, at least not in our generation.

[CrashGordon94]

I put "female" as my gender for a reason.

...Because you're female?

Sorry if I sound stupid, I just didn't quite understand the point you're making.

[eclipse]

...Because you're female?

Sorry if I sound stupid, I just didn't quite understand the point you're making.

That. . .was exactly my point, Crash.

Fine, Snowy. My mom did/appreciated NONE of that on all three. IIRC, the decision for her to go out with my dad was mutual, she insisted on paying her own way on dates, and she prefers a practical work shirt to a necklace. She's hardly a representative of all women, but she fights your stereotype pretty hard.

[Sunwoo]

For example, I'm sure you all know of the idea that the man is supposed to go out, make the first moves on a girl, take her out on dates, buy her jewelry, and then be the one who proposed. That is 'norm'. When was the last time you heard of a woman doing those things? Especially without being mocked? Why was it wrong for Peter to be with another woman when he had amnesia in Family Guy, but okay for Lois to do certain things to him when he decided to be chaste?

Not everyone believes that should be the way things are, though. In fact, I absolutely hate it when the guy makes the first move on me. If I like a guy enough, I'd rather ask him out first rather than waiting for him to come to me. Jewelry? No thanks, just get me birthday presents and stuff I'll actually like. If I knew I wanted to marry a guy, I'd propose to him first.

It's more than just 'the unfair sex' trope though. But what that trope does highlight is that there are very real differences between the genders that are in our culture. How could we achieve true equality in our culture? I don't think it is possible, at least not in our generation.

One thing I do agree with you to an extent is that I don't think it's possible to achieve true equality in our generation. But the least we can do is to stop perpetuating stuff that reinforces gender roles and stuff, harmful ones at least. Tell little girls that no, it's not okay to mock boys if it's not okay for them to mock you. Tell guys that no, not all women expect you to do everything and to take the first step. Maybe we can't change culture so that we enjoy the benefits of full equality, but society never got anywhere because people said, "oh, it's never going to change." If you want something to change, you stand up for it and you PUSH for it. You don't roll over and give up because you don't think you'll see it happen in your lifetime.

[CrashGordon94]

That. . .was exactly my point, Crash.

Ah, okay!

[marcus90]

True equality is when both male and female don't try to overwhelm each other or use the other as an item for various scopes. It won't ever happen and never did. So quit btching out this argument, it's pointless. To be like that, you need to be strong inside and try to convince others to be better persons and yourself too. Too bad that even if you tries, 99% of others don't grasp anything of an example out of you and prefer doing their way.

Both women and men killed Jesus and I'm not religious, just saying how people are retarded.

Edited August 14, 2012 by marcus90

[Thor Odinson]

For example, I'm sure you all know of the idea that the man is supposed to go out, make the first moves on a girl, take her out on dates, buy her jewelry, and then be the one who proposed. That is 'norm'. When was the last time you heard of a woman doing those things?

I don't know where you live, bruh, but I've personally asked out both my current and my ex, and many of my friends have made the first move as well. It's not uncommon and you must know a horribly narrow range of women if you still think no women actually does that.

And I hate it when people pay for my stuff. Unless I didn't bring enough money and absolutely had to, in which case I'd note it down and pay them back at a future date.

[Ein]

teehee

This discussion is just delicious~

Mostly because it hasn't done anything or gone anywhere.

[Original Alear]

teehee

This discussion is just delicious~

Mostly because it hasn't done anything or gone anywhere.

Ahaha I can't believe you're allowed to post in serious discussion.

Yes I can't believe I'm allowed to either.

Yes I can't believe that serious discussion still exists either.

Edited August 17, 2012 by L1049

[Eltoshen]

teehee

This discussion is just delicious~

Mostly because it hasn't done anything or gone anywhere.

Not that it matters. I asked for opinions about the issue; there is no answer.

[Life]

For example, I'm sure you all know of the idea that the man is supposed to go out, make the first moves on a girl, take her out on dates, buy her jewelry, and then be the one who proposed. That is 'norm'. When was the last time you heard of a woman doing those things?

Most women enjoy being paid attention to. Most men don't need this kind of attention.

[eclipse]

Most women enjoy being paid attention to. Most men don't need this kind of attention.

I can generalize and say that most men get salty when people they care about stop paying attention to them. People are people; some people function well with lots of attention/materialistic things, others don't. I think gender is irrelevant, because "attention whore" swings both ways.

[Rehab]

That is 'norm'. When was the last time you heard of a woman doing those things? Especially without being mocked?

My ex :B she was way more outgoing/social than me, and way better at making friends. I was actually kind of jealous of girls for a bit because, looking at her group, I thought they were flat-out better at making friends than me, having had 1.5 really good guy friends through most of high school. Even positive stereotypes can serve to downplay somebody's successes, though, and then of course their weaknesses are either ignored or forced to fit a stereotype themselves. Post-relationship, I kinda came to the conclusion idealizing her and girls made it hard to get over her flaws, which made it harder than it should've been to think of her as her own person.

That, and during the relationship I met a lot of girls who were all over the spectrum of social adjustment. Personal reality usually has a way of catching up.

[Esau of Isaac]

I don't know where you live, bruh, but I've personally asked out both my current and my ex, and many of my friends have made the first move as well. It's not uncommon and you must know a horribly narrow range of women if you still think no women actually does that.

It's the norm for the male to ask the female out, however, and society deems a man on the receiving end of these to be weak in most situations.

[Thor Odinson]

Society can suck it then because men should not have to feel ashamed of a woman asking them out. Relationships should be give and take one both ends, not horribly one-sided giving and the other side just taking. I don't care if it's the norm, but many women I know have no problems asking a guy out and have done so and their actions should not be counted as nonexistent just because some stupid norm dictates otherwise.

[1st Mate Bob]

It's the norm for the male to ask the female out, however, and society deems a man on the receiving end of these to be weak in most situations.

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing we still live with the standards of the 1950's in place.

[CrashGordon94]

And more importantly, being the "norm" doesn't make things right in the first place.

[Kiriane]

Say not that it's the norm then. Say rather that it's generally more accepted in certain circles of society. Or if you will, say that it is more widely accepted than the other way around. And for goodness's sake please try to recognise that just because you don't subscribe to an opinion doesn't necessarily make it stupid, either. It just makes it something you disagree with. Though in this case I do believe that the idea of the guy having to ask out the girl, rather than the other way around, is...a bit dated at best. Nonetheless, I'll go along with the norm of the society I grew up in, which is that the guy asks out the girl and not the other way around. No point making more people uncomfortable than I have to. And that's another point. If you're going to campaign for equality, at least do it in a way that means something - rebelling against the dating convention, of all things, only makes you seem impotent.

And yes, that actually is the norm here. I recognise that it is not the norm within your group of friends, but in the first place, the statement was not about you in particular, and it was not made to specifically talk about your situation. It obviously doesn't apply to your little select group of friends, big deal, do you really think that makes it inapplicable to other parts of the country/world? Really? Get over yourself and just respond to the point made. Which is that whatever you personally think of such a viewpoint, IT STILL EXISTS.

As for actual gender-and-society roles, my perspective is that society shapes the people who grew up in it; therefore, women who grew up in (insert male dominated society here) are most probably going to run for office/become CEOs/whatever in smaller proportions than men, because of the way they were raised. So the overall effect is still that women occupy less positions of power than men, and it's not because of unequal opportunities. The opportunities could very well be equal in practice, they often are, it's simply that relatively less women are going for them. Is that really such a bad thing? They got to decide, and they decided not to. Really, where do you get off saying that women MUST occupy 50% of positions of power? Is it really a problem if they don't? I think rather that it's only a problem if the disproportion is caused by a dearth of opportunities or by existing discrimination (favouring men over women for a position, rather than evaluating on competence). So okay, it's a problem right now in some parts of the world, some worse than others. But I think this is an important distinction to make: can not versus will not.

And finally, I'll point out that the particular economic situation of a person, his/her community, and the country in general plays a large part in what exactly men and women decide to do.

((Edit: I can't believe I'm doing this, but here it is. I'm agreeing with Crash's post above mine.))

Edited August 27, 2012 by Kiriane

[Esau of Isaac]

Society can suck it then because men should not have to feel ashamed of a woman asking them out. Relationships should be give and take one both ends, not horribly one-sided giving and the other side just taking. I don't care if it's the norm, but many women I know have no problems asking a guy out and have done so and their actions should not be counted as nonexistent just because some stupid norm dictates otherwise.

In all honesty I like the idea of gender roles, or at least some of them. The concept of the male being the breadwinner while the female is the caretaker is charming in its own way, and feels...comfortable. I will say though that I sometimes think of how it would be to be the exact opposite. I mean, would it be nice to flip the switch and have roles switch for awhile? Sure. But I'm not simply going to suffer relationship-wise by refusing to be forward because females today generally react rather initiate dating situations. Believe me, I've thought "fuggit" once or twice and let the fish jump themselves into this handsome boat, and it's not a very efficient process for catching fish. Err, ladies.

Sorry, but I have a hard time believing we still live with the standards of the 1950's in place.

I don't know what to tell you. Are you saying it is not the norm for the male to take the initiative in beginning relationships in today's society?

I mean that's great if that's how it is where you're coming from, but around here and in general today, relationships still have that traditional tinge in that sense. Personally, I have never been in any relationship as the result of a woman asking me out, only the other way around, and I have never met a female that said "Hey, you wanna go see a movie?" or its like to a man (at least not in memory). And I've known some fairly forward women. They just fell into their gender roles like they do with practically everything else. I wouldn't say that's necessarily bad, but it can be frustrating for some people who want to break the mold.

And more importantly, being the "norm" doesn't make things right in the first place.

There is no wrong or right here. I mean, you can't really paint any specific group as perpetuating gender roles in society. It's a general thing, with its own various eccentricities depending on where you live.

[1st Mate Bob]

I don't know what to tell you. Are you saying it is not the norm for the male to take the initiative in beginning relationships in today's society?

I mean that's great if that's how it is where you're coming from, but around here and in general today, relationships still have that traditional tinge in that sense. Personally, I have never been in any relationship as the result of a woman asking me out, only the other way around, and I have never met a female that said "Hey, you wanna go see a movie?" or its like to a man (at least not in memory). And I've known some fairly forward women. They just fell into their gender roles like they do with practically everything else. I wouldn't say that's necessarily bad, but it can be frustrating for some people who want to break the mold.

I would point out that since there are many same sex couples out there nowadays, the entire concept of "the man takes initiative" falls flat. But I'm afraid that getting into that area will derail the current line of discussion. (or maybe it won't, I don't know. maybe I'm thinking too much) Regardless I felt it was worth mentioning.

Since you shared your personal experiences, I'll share mine. I've been asked out on more dates by women than the other way around. Maybe that's because I just happen to be in a very open or liberal part of the country, or maybe it's a sign that the concept of the gender role is evolving into something different. In my opinion, the "norm" is now "the person who has the courage to ask someone out is the one who makes the move."

Or maybe I wasn't taking any hints and they just got tired of waiting for me to make a move. I don't know. :P

Edited August 28, 2012 by 1st Mate Bob

[Rothene]

But I'm not simply going to suffer relationship-wise by refusing to be forward because females today generally react rather initiate dating situations. Believe me, I've thought "fuggit" once or twice and let the fish jump themselves into this handsome boat, and it's not a very efficient process for catching fish. Err, ladies.

You should consider yourself the fish in that situation, and that there are many other fishes(guys/girls) out there. What makes you so special that they should approach you? How will they know you are a worthy catch unless you present something that justifies them taking effort. Just because you were not approached does not mean the girls weren't taking initiative, you probably just didn't display any trait that would warrant them taking the effort to approach you. Although I do not discount the fact there are people who prefer being approached as they feel insecure.