Regarding Ike

[RNG Princess]

But how does Ike knew that Micaiah doesn't want this fight? For all he knows, Daein's current king and its Priestess of Dawn are cuckoo.

(Now, I know that they're not, but how does IKE know that?)

I think that Rafiel and Nailah told him and everyone in his army that Miccy is a good person ^^'. Yet that also happened in PoR with Ena and Jill's father but he didn't hesitate to fight them ^^'.

[Sunwoo]

I think that Rafiel and Nailah told him and everyone in his army that Miccy is a good person ^^'. Yet that also happened in PoR with Ena and Jill's father but he didn't hesitate to fight them ^^'.

In the case of PoR and Ena and Jill's father, in that case Daein WAS the enemy. Ena and Shiharam were good, but they were standing directly in Ike's path and wouldn't step down. They were fighting for Daein, who instigated the war against Crimea, and therefore they were a primary target.

Daein in RD, however, had absolutely no business (in the eyes of everyone who didn't know the truth) in the war against Begnion and the Laguz Alliance. I think Ike didn't want to fight Micaiah because the war is NONE OF HER DAMN BUSINESS while in PoR the war WAS Ena and Shiharam's damn business.

[Jedi]

I think that Rafiel and Nailah told him and everyone in his army that Miccy is a good person ^^'. Yet that also happened in PoR with Ena and Jill's father but he didn't hesitate to fight them ^^'.

This sounds right, and I think Tormod gave the Laguz Alliance info on them as well but it's been awhile since I played but if I recall in one of the narrations it mentions Tormod meeting up with the alliance briefly and he could have given them Intel because they were escorting Nailah and Rafiel out of Daein at the end of part 1. But then again I could be totally wrong.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Jedi

[RNG Princess]

This sounds right, and I think Tormod gave the Laguz Alliance info on them as well but it's been awhile since I played but if I recall in one of the narrations it mentions Tormod meeting up with the alliance briefly and he could have given them Intel because they were escorting Nailah and Rafiel out of Daein at the end of part 1. But then again I could be totally wrong.

Oh I don't remember Tormod's part ^^' but I do remember Rafiel's because in the next chapter they appear as NPC's and I thought they were re-recruitable in that chapter 3-13 o3o but they weren't.

In the case of PoR and Ena and Jill's father, in that case Daein WAS the enemy. Ena and Shiharam were good, but they were standing directly in Ike's path and wouldn't step down. They were fighting for Daein, who instigated the war against Crimea, and therefore they were a primary target.

Daein in RD, however, had absolutely no business (in the eyes of everyone who didn't know the truth) in the war against Begnion and the Laguz Alliance. I think Ike didn't want to fight Micaiah because the war is NONE OF HER DAMN BUSINESS while in PoR the war WAS Ena and Shiharam's damn business.

^^' Her army was still an obstacle in his way regardless if it was her business or not.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Maiden_of_Emblem

[Sunwoo]

^^' Her army was still an obstacle in his way regardless if it was her business or not.

Do you not get what I'm saying, though?

[RNG Princess]

Do you not get what I'm saying, though?

No i'm sorry ;A;. Could you explain?

[Sunwoo]

What I was trying to say was that in PoR, Daein is the main opposing enemy. Crimea has every reason to be at war with Daein, because they invaded and took over Crimea. Ena and Shiharam were good people who were fighting for Daein because of their own reasons (Rajaion and loyalty). Even if Ike saw that they were not bad people, they were fighting for Daein and would not back down. Ike can't back down either because in PoR Daein is the bad guy that needs to go down for Crimea to be free.

In RD, though, the main war is between the Laguz Alliance and Begnion's senators. Where in this equation does Daein fit in? They don't, in the eyes of everyone who didn't know about Pelleas' little deal with Lekain. Daein won independence from the hated Begnion, so why would they want to help Begnion? Likewise, why would Daein side with the laguz? Why should Daein involve themselves in a war they have no business in at a time when they should be rebuilding after the events of part 1 and before?

The difference between Micaiah in RD with Ena and Shiharam in PoR was that Ena and Shiharam had every reason to be fighting. They were fighting for Daein, the side that caused the war. However, Micaiah was fighting for a faction that should have never been involved in the war and had nothing to gain by doing so. That is the difference.

[Momo]

You suggest an alternative. I dare you.

"Ike, you have kitchen and and cleaning duties for the next two weeks"

Yes he does. He wants to figure out just what the hell is going on in Daein. You don't just free yourself from your captors and then rejoin them literally a couple months later. It's all apart of ending the war.

Except Micaiah has done nothing but antagonize Ike's army since this started. For all he knows, she's just Ashnard 2.0 and doesn't care about other people. Hell, even Micaiah herself knows what she's doing is terrible but doesn't care, as long as Daein is safe.

[Lord Raven]

"Ike, you have kitchen and and cleaning duties for the next two weeks"

"But unfortunately, we've got a lot of shit to do, so we can't put that into practice yet."

Except Micaiah has done nothing but antagonize Ike's army since this started. For all he knows, she's just Ashnard 2.0 and doesn't care about other people. Hell, even Micaiah herself knows what she's doing is terrible but doesn't care, as long as Daein is safe.

Ashnard's goal wasn't to keep Daein safe though. And I doubt Ike would think she's Ashnard 2.0 or inherently bad if people from his army- Zihark, Sothe, Tauroneo, Ilyana, Jill- were fighting on her side. Zihark loves laguz and Tauroneo is honorable, as Ike knows. I think it's reasonable he'd assume she was level headed to some extent.

[Noktra]

phew... step by step I guess.... beware of the wall of text!

@BrightBow:

I think I was not making my point clear then.

I have no issues with characters saying stupid things. My problem is the "without ever being corrected about the bullshit he said" part.

He was talking nonsense - that's a given fact. But it's ok for him to do that if it's his feeling this moment. People are selfish and stupid and sometimes on the wrong track.

Having characters with such flaws is wonderfull.

But as a storyteller one alos have some kind of responsibility. A stroywriter just need to put in some counterpart, to show that those characters aren't neccesarily right in their way of thinking... That it's just their point of view.

One could argument that would be obvious, ...but... RD is a solitary game in a way... A player who only played RD and not knowing about PoR has no way to know Blondie-Guy talks shit. It's too easy to think of that statement as storyfact with no other character interfering.

It's convenieant to grow sympathy for Daein and point the finger on the evilevil Begnions, but defacto it's very very bad writing.

I'll give an example on what I mean.

Ike scolded Sanaki for making fun out of Ellincia. Ike gets scolded afterwards on how he was disresptecfull to the very way of Begnion's style of Life, with putting the Apostle above all else.

We get to know both sides now.

It's now up to us players to decide wether Ike was still in the right to rose up against Sanaki because her attitude was unmoraly and mean. Or if we come to think Ike was in the wrong because of his surrounding laws and the need to respect other people's way of living.

We have all information, we can choose for us. Good writing.

Back to the Blonde Merchant... if ... say his twin had stand up and said somethin like: "you're overreacting. Remember? we had to flee out of crimea back then because the daein soldiers were so vicious. It's still saddening to see things going down here now..."

Or anything else in the line... That would just have made this scene a lot better....

And that's what I meant with "just 1-3 sentences here and there would've just saved the story".

Tormod told him. It's mentioned in the extended script.

Tormod.... He's still in contact with Tormod....?? ... What's the big deal then with "we cannot talk to anyone! The senators will know! We cannot ask for help!" crap??

... Sorry it just went from a plothole to a plotcanyon for me.....

It's probably more a case that he didn't know anything about the Laguz until he was an adult. So he could take a look on those things things without prejudice

Maybe even that. But even with his deleted memory... maybe he still has some sublimental rememberings of living along with laguz. (Mist was too young I think)

She knows that the Daein people would kill her for simply...being. Why would she share their attitude when she is also it's victim? And in her endless wisdom, when she eventually connected to the people of Daein she immediately adopted their hatred for the guy who gave them a well deserved butt-kicking.

Hating Ike is one of the few good things about Micaiah characterwise...

And you may have a point with sharing the attitude... but... what makes her so special compared to other Branded? We know Soren... uh... yeah laguzfriend... not... / Petrine... pretty clear too.... / Even Stefan is very cynical and hurting at Mordecai first.

So what made Micaiah stand out?

Keep in mind: she lives in a land of constant Laguz-Hunting-Sport, where laguzhate is teached (!) in schools... where no one even considers Laguz having any human traits... Maybe Feral Ones are even used in Ashnards cruel collosseum games?

On that background... Why is Micaiah different? What gave her the needed experience to think of Laguz as humans?

To make her a plausible and well-written character that info would've been needed imho.

The Nasir thing at the ending:

I have to disagree.

The one thing that didn't change about Ike was his heart. His strong-willed heart and open mind, to see things in a clear way without prejudice.

And I pretty much think Nasir was referring to that.

Because pretty much everything else on Ike ...changed.

Someone here just said it: He learned to keep his emotions in check, and he learned to carry responsibilty, to listen to the advice of others and acting after it.

He lost most of his impulsivness and is much more collected and reasonable by the end of game.

And that's just a good charactergrowth for a maincharacter imho. Keep the thing which makes you stand out from the rest, but get rid of your childish and reckless attitude.

Micaiah on the other hand...

BTW Miccy isn't the same in the epilogue and the beginning. She was bitter and hateful especially of Ike but that changes so she's not the same ^^'. She also learns to face her fear of being branded and shows compassion for others whereas before she avoided people to the point of leaving Sothe. She's also not as obedient in later parts of the game as she is in Part 1 ^^', she becomes more stubborn throughout the game.

Micaiah learning to accept here branded nature is a thing that happend prior to the game (hence she and sothe are reunited....). We don't get to see that evolution... (I'll admit though that it is there).

In fact, in the game itself, she never opens up to any others besides sothe about her branded nature (at least not on her own motivation...). I see no further charcater change there...

And stopping to hate Ike... I don't tknow if that's an accomplishment for her or a Stu-ability of him.... (I tend to the latter...)

She's pretty stubborn right from the start... Even sothe says so... He says something in the line of "once you made your mind you're not gonna change it. And I will follow." (Around that desert/laguzbandit chapter)

Micaiah is from the very beginning very strong-willed (up to stubborness) and remains so the entire game (even leading to those nice things in part 3...) (So one could say she does at least have some flaws... lol But in my opinon flaws alone don't make a good character...)

She's loved by anyone who lies eyes on her(sans Soren, but Soren hates everyone who don't go by the name of Ike, so I don't think he counts XD). And that just... remains... the same... despite... everything... she... does.... - unplausisble.

(And even Soren recognizes some ability in her... not liking her but still giving praise... urgh... but at least IS didn't throw Soren completely Out of Character with this...)

One could say willing to be seen as a monster just to help Daein, opposed to how caring and helping and goody Miacaiah was earlier, is a character growth... But I still have to disagree... That motivation still comes from her intention "to be loved", and she was taking immense risks to reach this goal even early in the game (endangering the whole dawn brigade just to help Laura). She didn't learn a bit!

onwards to more of Maiden_of_Emblem's Post

She never changed their character, they decide to stay with her and that's why they're recruitable for the opposite team

They decided .... that's excatly what I'm talking about. WHY should Zihark decide to STAY with a Laguzhunter? The Zihark I knew from PoR would just slice your throat and walk away to protect the hunted laguz if you'd ordered him to kill a laguz.

What makes Micaiah soooo loveable to change Ziharks very CORE of character....

Impulsiveness-made-in-flesh-Tormod just silently vanishes after finding out the source of all Feral Ones?? Just to comply to Micaiah??? Just because she want's to protect Izuka for Pelleas, Tormod does too? (Maybe it was Tormod's information that led Bastian on the trail of Izuka, we never know... But it's still very ooc for Tormod imho)

Kurthnaga... following Aimee's statement of: you were so silent I assumed you weren't speaking our language, I reckon Kurth never talked to Aimee nor Ilyana in this prison... Then Micaiah popps up and he is suddenly all open....what? she's branded....? Does he open up because she's branded or what? Then what makes her more likeable then Soren? (whom Kurth seems to despise... (his expression towards the finding of Almedha's true son, and those support types in game data giving soren and kurth a rather malus one).

Muarim is not friendly towards her? The only thing I can remember with him being rather harsh was that "watch what you say" scene. And to be frank... I would've scolded her the same way... Even if she were my best friend...

Vika feels uneasy around her, but doesn't put that into line with miccy being branded... She says she likes Miccy... ok... (I cannot say if that's Vika or not because we never see anything much about Vika)

Regarding the BlackKnight I have my own theory why he's attracted to her... She's the same as he, but she kept her caring heart and is capturing people with it. I think he envys her a bit.

It's ok with her capturing people's hearts... but please for story's sake... not of all characters and against all odds, that's too much -.-

(Blackie: ok, Sothe: ok, Pelleas: ok, Nailah and Rafiel: ok, random people of daein: ok, but fort he rest I had wanted... more... reason... to love Micaiah than just loving her for the sake of it.)

Having a caring heart is ok and all, but I don't think that's reason enough for the all the poeple in the world to suddenly love her. Mist is very caring too (In my eyes even more caring...) but she's not rallying thousands of people around her. Where's the difference?

Micaiah has many flaws too and some backfire on her. One of them is being unnecessarily stubborn by following Pelleas' orders because she knows she shouldn't but she does anyway, and it get's her boyfriend's life at risk by Tibarn ^^'

I'll admit you're right with that.

Her stuborness is a character flaw. But she never gets over it... She's even pushing things her way in the epilogue (Sanaki scene... That was pretty much a "you're signing a peace treaty with me of course? because I'm your sister!")

But somehow... the story seems to give her no need to change it at all... because she's reaching everything just fine with it in the end.

(And yes, the same applies to RD Ike...)

Both maincharacters are drawn to be "just likeable per default" from the way the RD story draws them out... without giving us players much choice or insight in why they are likeable.

Micaiah could've been a great character with tons of potential. (still not sympathetic for my taste but good characterwise)

But she's got screwed over with failed storywriting.

There's too much not told about her and her reasoning to make her a good character.

Micaiah just hops on from scene to scene saying and doing what is just needed to pull of the stoyr in the direction the writer wnated it to go in a cheap and easy way. (Pretty much the same way Blondie merchant guy worked as a tool to rise pro-Daien-Sympathy)

(I hadn't even the feeling she was consistent in her ways. She's caring and selfreflecting once... then impulsive and sponateous next..., dominant and stubborn there, ruthless the next time... understanding and sensibel here, than completedly "derp" and accidentally hurting next....)

With Micaiah I always have the feeling of a noodle-salad-mix of different characters *lol*

I see what IS wanted to make with Micaiah, but I don't think they succeeded...

(just 1-3 sentences here and there...)

BrightBow said: Personally I would say that if Ike is a Sue, he is the rare brand of a well written one you spoke of.

And now we need to discuss the cutting line between a maincharacter and a well written Mary Sue ;)

(Because a well developed Mary Sue can become the maincharacter of a new story XD)

For me it's definition. Mary Sue = Fancharacter / Ike = official Character

Micaiah is per definition not a Mary Sue but annoyingly close to a bad one because of failed writing.

ok onwards to the Zelgius thing.... (the wall of text aaaaaah)

Ike did "get over" Greil's death, but only after Zelgius is dead. All of his hidden emotions surfaced once all the anger left him

And I'd think something is terribly wrong in my head if I can find myself respecting a guy after I have his blood on my hands and calming my anger....

If I can find something strong enough in me to grow respect.... then my rage is not justificated at all in the first place.

Because if I would just cool down, maybe the anger wasn't there...

But maybe it's just my way of thinking....

I find it shocking enough that Ike wasn't more -bamm what?- upon discovering Zelgius' identity. I mean he respected that man, maybe even envyd him?

His whole reaction was more like: what? zelgius is the BK? ok I go kill zelgius then.

(I'd be torn apart between hating him and respecting him if I were a part of the Tellius' crew)

But again... it maybe me.... I can find nothing in this battle-glory or duty to serve and all this shit... I would never harm a person I like or respect.

(One of the reasons I love Zihark so much, he's not fighting back on several occasions even when being attacked.)

If Ike wanted to just kill Zelgius "for the lulz", I doubt they would've spent such a long time talking about how awesome his father was.

Sadly it's the same for me to kill someone for plain entertainement or because I want to proof myself I have mastered the skill to do so...

It's selfenjoyment both ways.

And Zelgius wanting to fight doesn't make it better imho. Greil was wanting that fight too back then.... why else was he walking to that forest at all? (Greil even sounded like he knew he wouldn't survive)

So where's the difference between Ike and Zelgius?

And all those quotes... I know them... but sadly again they're all hardening my way of seeing RD Ike...

Ike even talks to sothe about "killing him with one blow, the least he can do" ... heck if you're so overpowered compared to Sothe than just smash him k.o. and wrap him up in a rope to keep him from doing stupid things >___>

(as Calill want to do with Tauroneo for example *love Calill btw*)

... I wish RD had a "capture" feature ....

But again... I don't see anything in "battleglory" .... so I have naturally no respect for it

Ah one thing at this Micaiah dialogue...

Yeah he literally begs her to talk to him. A complete stranger.... and he wanted to protect her out of the blue, while in the very same chapter he says: I have no mercy on my enemies, that goes for former allies too"

... Yeah that's one friend I want... not. I'm cool as I stand on his side but once we have a disagreement bamm? And not only that... he would cut down former friends and still want to protect a complete stranger just because she's Micaiah. eeeeek.

enough... tired... sleep =_=

[Baldrick]

Srs post this time.

"Ike, you have kitchen and and cleaning duties for the next two weeks"

How is that not a slap on the wrist as well? I doubt that normally the GM have servants waiting on them hand and foot.

I think it's reasonable he'd assume she was level headed to some extent.

He wouldn't even need to assume, since she tells Reyson she thinks the war is madness.

Tormod.... He's still in contact with Tormod....?? ... What's the big deal then with "we cannot talk to anyone! The senators will know! We cannot ask for help!" crap??

... Sorry it just went from a plothole to a plotcanyon for me.....

I think Tormod can give them intel, but they daren't tell Tormod about the blood pact in case the senators found out. (better to be safe than sorry, I guess).

(And even Soren recognizes some ability in her... not liking her but still giving praise... urgh... but at least IS didn't throw Soren completely Out of Character with this...)

Soren wouldn't last five minutes as a tactician if he ignored the threat posed by everyone he doesn't like.

One could say willing to be seen as a monster just to help Daein, opposed to how caring and helping and goody Miacaiah was earlier, is a character growth... But I still have to disagree... That motivation still comes from her intention "to be loved", and she was taking immense risks to reach this goal even early in the game (endangering the whole dawn brigade just to help Laura). She didn't learn a bit!

Micaiah doesn't want to be loved... and anyway, using tactics such as those is a dramatic change in her MO.

They decided .... that's excatly what I'm talking about. WHY should Zihark decide to STAY with a Laguzhunter? The Zihark I knew from PoR would just slice your throat and walk away to protect the hunted laguz if you'd ordered him to kill a laguz.

What makes Micaiah soooo loveable to change Ziharks very CORE of character....

Because Daein is vulnerable, he is conflicted between helping his country and following his ideals.

Impulsiveness-made-in-flesh-Tormod just silently vanishes after finding out the source of all Feral Ones?? Just to comply to Micaiah??? Just because she want's to protect Izuka for Pelleas, Tormod does too? (Maybe it was Tormod's information that led Bastian on the trail of Izuka, we never know... But it's still very ooc for Tormod imho)

What was he going to do? Slit Izuka's throat? Pelleas says it won't happen again, and he has an idea of the bigger picture. He avoids Izuka because he doesn't want to do anything rash.

Regarding the BlackKnight I have my own theory why he's attracted to her... She's the same as he, but she kept her caring heart and is capturing people with it. I think he envys her a bit.

Sephiran's plan needed Micaiah to survive to either sing the galdr of release, or bring Daein into the war so that Ashera would awaken.

And I'd think something is terribly wrong in my head if I can find myself respecting a guy after I have his blood on my hands and calming my anger....

If I can find something strong enough in me to grow respect.... then my rage is not justificated at all in the first place.

Because if I would just cool down, maybe the anger wasn't there...

...

I would never harm a person I like or respect.

You're misunderstanding the type of respect. Ike doesn't like Zelgius, or condone what he did. He acknowledges Zelgius' skill, and like him, desires to surpass his teacher. He also wants to avenge Greil, but Zelgius' death isn't ultimately what he wants. Because it is a fight to the death, and they're on opposite sides of the Ashera vs Yune fight, he can't afford to let Zelgius live.

His whole reaction was more like: what? zelgius is the BK? ok I go kill zelgius then.

His reaction is a long way from that.

And Zelgius wanting to fight doesn't make it better imho. Greil was wanting that fight too back then.... why else was he walking to that forest at all? (Greil even sounded like he knew he wouldn't survive)

Greil knew that the BK would follow him until they fought, and he didn't want Ike to become involved.

So where's the difference between Ike and Zelgius?

Apart from Zelgius not wanting revenge, and not having anything else to live for, nothing.

Ike even talks to sothe about "killing him with one blow, the least he can do" ... heck if you're so overpowered compared to Sothe than just smash him k.o. and wrap him up in a rope to keep him from doing stupid things >___>

What Ike means is that if he can't persuade Sothe otherwise, he won't hesitate in their fight.

Ah one thing at this Micaiah dialogue...

Yeah he literally begs her to talk to him. A complete stranger.... and he wanted to protect her out of the blue, while in the very same chapter he says: I have no mercy on my enemies, that goes for former allies too"

... Yeah that's one friend I want... not. I'm cool as I stand on his side but once we have a disagreement bamm? And not only that... he would cut down former friends and still want to protect a complete stranger just because she's Micaiah. eeeeek.

He gives the exact same terms to anyone who opposes him on the battlefield; surrender or die. He gives extra effort to Micaiah because he doesn't know why she's against him (in fact, he knows she doesn't want to fight) and he doesn't want to take any more lives than is necessary.

[HeroMystic]

Ashnard's goal wasn't to keep Daein safe though. And I doubt Ike would think she's Ashnard 2.0 or inherently bad if people from his army- Zihark, Sothe, Tauroneo, Ilyana, Jill- were fighting on her side. Zihark loves laguz and Tauroneo is honorable, as Ike knows. I think it's reasonable he'd assume she was level headed to some extent.

3-12 brings in a lot of perspective as well. Ike was held off by a decoy army (which he and the laguz promptly smashes through), and only catches the end of the scenario where the Apostle and her Pegasus Army was about to be torn to pieces by Archers and Mages. Tibarn grabs Sothe and puts him over the cliff and Micaiah just stops completely. I mean, at this point, Ike and the Laguz Alliance could've easily torn apart every single person in the Daein Army from that point on. But he doesn't because he wants to know why Daein is fighting for their former oppressors (as Xin Li stated), but whenever Ike demands for a reason, Micaiah can only say "We have no choice, we can't retreat". From that point forward, Ike should know Daein has no real purpose in the war (or their king is to blame). This can be further emphasized by the fact that Sothe dropped from the cliff and Micaiah just broke the fuck down right afterwards, which emphasizes her lack of experience as a soldier, let alone being a knight bounded by oath like Tauroneo.

Then there's also this:

Rafiel

General Ike. Please allow me to join you on the battlefield.

Ike

Shouldn't you be watching over the medallion with your brother and sister? Is it really a good idea for you to be away?

Nailah

I think it should be fine. However don't let Rafiel join the battle by himself. Let me come along as well.

Ike

Sure, I don't mind, but why?

Rafiel

They can manage without me for a while. I am here because I must see Micaiah. I want to save her. I can reason with her. I know it.

Ike

Even if you're up for it, if she doesn't want to listen, there's nothing we can do about it.

Rafiel

...Still, I'd like to try. Please.

Nailah

If we can talk to her face-to-face, maybe she will understand. It's also for our own peace of mind.

Ike

All right. No matter how you look at it, this battle is in our favour. I'll tell my men to avoid firing at Micaiah. Sound good?

Rafiel

Thank you, Ike.

Ike was also influenced by Rafiel to try to save Micaiah. If Rafiel, one of the purest of herons wanted to save Micaiah, then it's obvious for Ike to see there's more to Micaiah than what is shown.

@Noktra: It seems you have a personal dislike towards Ike's personality, and that's fine. However, just because you don't like him doesn't mean he's a Gary-Stu. I think a lot of people don't like Ike in RD if you take away PoR as context (I personally would've found him as bland).

Edited August 14, 2012 by HeroMystic

[Original Alear]

The difference between Micaiah in RD with Ena and Shiharam in PoR was that Ena and Shiharam had every reason to be fighting. They were fighting for Daein, the side that caused the war. However, Micaiah was fighting for a faction that should have never been involved in the war and had nothing to gain by doing so. That is the difference.

But Micaiah was fighting principally out of loyalty, the same reason that (according to you) Shiharam does - though I don't think there's any evidence that he's loyal to Ashnard, or that loyalty to anyone but his troops motivates his actions in "Defend Talrega" (certainly he wasn't as loyal to Daien as he was to his soldiers, since he opted to flood Talrega and damage the livelihoods of Daien citizens rather than put his soldiers at risk). Daien going to war with Crimea in FE9 wasn't any more justifiable than Daien going to war on the side of Begnion in FE10, and Micaiah, while having a major role in commanding the Daien war effort, wasn't nominally in control of whether or not Daien would go to war.

"But unfortunately, we've got a lot of shit to do, so we can't put that into practice yet."

"Even though we've been operating without you up until now."

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

^

so if you dislike ike, that doesn't mean he's a sue right?

if so then once again, why is it ok with people disliking micaiah because she's a "sue"?

this is the double standard thing i mentioned afew pages ago working in full effect again.

[Samias]

"Even though we've been operating without you up until now."

The years before, the Greil Mercenaries worked during more peaceful times. I can believe war causes a much greater demand for the Greil mercs because the royals cannot offer the same protections to the citizens anymore. Why is it so hard to believe that Greil needed all the hands he could get to manage the company's contracts when Crimea is in the midst of being sacked?

[HeroMystic]

^

so if you dislike ike, that doesn't mean he's a sue right?

if so then once again, why is it ok with people disliking micaiah because she's a "sue"?

this is the double standard thing i mentioned afew pages ago working in full effect again.

Don't put words in my mouth. If you bothered reading my previous posts you would know exactly why I dislike Micaiah.

People have wrongly used the term "Mary Sue" on multiple occasions for characters they have a personal distaste for. Micaiah is not a Mary Sue. She makes a stronger case of it than Ike does, which I fully stand by, but I have never once said she is one.

[Sunwoo]

Can't we all just agree to disagree that Mary Sue is a rather subjective term and what one person sees as a Mary Sue others don't? Simply disliking a character doesn't make them a Sue. However, said character may have traits that are not very well explored or explained and makes a few people think s/he is a Sue, while other people feel that they're explored good enough so the character is not a Sue.

[Loki Laufeyson]

WHY should Zihark decide to STAY with a Laguzhunter?

To be fair, he can defect. Zihark and Jill are both exceedingly conflicted in part 3. They dont approve of what Micaiah is doing but they follow anyway because they feel she may be in the right in the long run. Which is kinda Suetastic by itself. But since Lethe or Mordy can talk to Zihark about the situation and he can turn on THEIR side, that also acts as a -1 on the Sue-o-meter for Micaiah. Same with Jill. Haar can convince her to change sides too. -1 on the Sue-o-meter for Micaiah again. Is this a +2 for Ike's Sue-o-meter? Well...it could thought of that way but Ike isnt the one that can convince these two to defect to his side.

[RNG Princess]

phew... step by step I guess.... beware of the wall of text!

Hating Ike is one of the few good things about Micaiah characterwise...

And you may have a point with sharing the attitude... but... what makes her so special compared to other Branded? We know Soren... uh... yeah laguzfriend... not... / Petrine... pretty clear too.... / Even Stefan is very cynical and hurting at Mordecai first.

So what made Micaiah stand out?

Keep in mind: she lives in a land of constant Laguz-Hunting-Sport, where laguzhate is teached (!) in schools... where no one even considers Laguz having any human traits... Maybe Feral Ones are even used in Ashnards cruel collosseum games?

On that background... Why is Micaiah different? What gave her the needed experience to think of Laguz as humans?

To make her a plausible and well-written character that info would've been needed imho.

Didn't you say a main character needed different traits to stand out? ^^'. Micaiah never lived through what Stefan did. I don't think she met many laguz before the game so maybe that's why she's not bitter about them and is more accepting to them than the other branded. She lives in Daein but that isn't a reason for her share all their feelings and thoughts. Zihark is similar in that sense he's surrounded by laguz hating environment in PoR and he doesn't share their feelings.

They decided .... that's excatly what I'm talking about. WHY should Zihark decide to STAY with a Laguzhunter? The Zihark I knew from PoR would just slice your throat and walk away to protect the hunted laguz if you'd ordered him to kill a laguz.

What makes Micaiah soooo loveable to change Ziharks very CORE of character....

That's no different than Shinnon and Soren being laguz haters and staying by Ike's side. Or Jill suddenly changing into a laguz lover in PoR because Ike influenced her to. ^^' I think Shinnon is a lot more questionable than both Zihark or Jill. We know Zihark and Jill want to help Daein, they were the main army who were fighting for Pelleas to rise back for king so they fight for Daein for a good reason. Shinnon is a lot more random. Why is he fighting with Ike if he hates him? And why does he fight for laguz if he hates them even more? The question applies to both games ^^'.

Edited August 14, 2012 by Maiden_of_Emblem

[Sunwoo]

Or Jill suddenly changing into a laguz lover in PoR because Ike influenced her to. ^^'

Ike didn't influence Jill changing her opinions on laguz. He let her stay with their troop, which led to her staying with the army and therefore getting to know more about the laguz, but he didn't influence her otherwise.

[HeroMystic]

That's no different than Shinnon and Soren being laguz haters and staying by Ike's side. Or Jill suddenly changing into a laguz lover in PoR because Ike influenced her to. ^^' I think Shinnon is a lot more questionable than both Zihark or Jill. We know Zihark and Jill want to help Daein, they were the main army who were fighting for Pelleas to rise back for king so they fight for Daein for a good reason. Shinnon is a lot more random. Why is he fighting with Ike if he hates him? And why does he fight for laguz if he hates them even more? The question applies to both games ^^'.

Shinon stays there for Rolf. Plus, he actually cares about the GMs as a whole. He has a lot of respect for Titania and doesn't seem to mind Oscar, and of course he's good friends with Gatrie. Personaly, I think he has a soft spot for kids, as he tells Mist to run away from him if she happens to talk to him.

Shinon is just extremely jealous of Ike since he inherited the GMs through his father's will. At first, he just didn't see Ike at the needed to level to run the mercs, which is why he left, but once he found out he's leading an entire army, it puts him off because Ike basically got everything Shinon ever wanted.

Edited August 14, 2012 by HeroMystic

[Noktra]

I think Tormod can give them intel, but they daren't tell Tormod about the blood pact in case the senators found out. (better to be safe than sorry, I guess).

Still doesn't make sense to me... As if the Senators would tolerate a laguzsupporting friend of the Apostle at the sides of the Daeins anyway... If no one in Miccys crew would know about Sanaki's personality... ok.... But heck they would know she wouldn't stick with senators in this, and Tormod would already be on the Senator's blacklist anyway, so why not trying to trust him?

Soren wouldn't last five minutes as a tactician if he ignored the threat posed by everyone he doesn't like.

That's the reason I said he wasn't ooc with it.

Micaiah doesn't want to be loved... and anyway, using tactics such as those is a dramatic change in her MO.

There's a conversation between Mic and Sothe. She told sothe the reason why she's helping the Daeins so much now is because of that feeling of "home" after the war against crimea. she got help from other daeins just for being daein. And that made her caring so much for them.

(can't find the script sadly)

Maybe I'm a bit cynical in my way of interpretation but that tells me she gives love, because she got love prior. And now she doesn't want to loose that love again. That's her very motivation to fight for Daein.

I don't think so... earlier when such cruel tactics were discussed, it would've hurt the people of Daein, the citizens she wants to protect (because of stated reasons).

With her tatctics now, she "just" endangers strangers, people who don't know her or don't care about her, people she can ignore in some way...

She's just as relentlessly following her own decicions as early in the game.

Because Daein is vulnerable, Zihark is conflicted between helping his country and following his ideals

strangely enough he didn't seem to have this conflict back in PoR

After the cirmean army walked through daein the land was down and vulnerable too, but that didn't stop him.

Pelleas says it won't happen again, and he has an idea of the bigger picture. He avoids Izuka because he doesn't want to do anything rash.

And since when is Tormod suddenly not rush anymore? He still seems pretty rush prior to meeting micaiah and in part 4 too... He's just not rush around her. why?

If he fumed or raged a bit more, or showed any signs of anger left, I wouldn't say a thing. But he was to ...darn ...calm for being tormod.

Sephiran's plan needed Micaiah to survive to either sing the galdr of release, or bring Daein into the war so that Ashera would awaken.

Yet so the Black Knight still continues protecting her even after reaching both goals. Even in the tower (when she's opposing his master) he had ordered his men to not touch her. why?

(And don't tell me it's because of "sephiran wants to meet her". Sephiran didn't want the death of greil, yet that didn't stop Zelgius... And Sanaki doesn't get that special treatment in the desert... to Micaiah: "you, and no one else!" I ask again: why?)

You're misunderstanding the type of respect. Ike doesn't like Zelgius, or condone what he did. He acknowledges Zelgius' skill, and like him, desires to surpass his teacher. He also wants to avenge Greil, but Zelgius' death isn't ultimately what he wants. Because it is a fight to the death, and they're on opposite sides of the Ashera vs Yune fight, he can't afford to let Zelgius live.

I'm not misunderstanding. I just have another approach.

And I have to disagree on that "cannot afford to let live" aspect. I think Zelgius is honorable enough to accept a defeat and not further interfere. (maybe when they are directly endangering Sephiran... that.. .would... be...a... critical point... I must admit that much...)

But I don't think we can come to terms with that. It's just my way of seeing things, and I cannot understand or respect Ike here. Sorry ^^

His reaction is a long way from that.

How so? It was my feeling left after that scene... (badly written again I guess)

Greil knew that the BK would follow him until they fought, and he didn't want Ike to become involved

Why not wait then untill he could be sure to be alone? Like on another solo mission?

*shrug* I don't know... as long as he's just following.... let that creepy shadow stalk you... He waited 17 years, he will wait some more I guess.

(And I have to say if it was "just to ensure Ike's savety" ... I would loose all respect on Greil... A parallel to Micaiah giving herself to jarod to (fail!)protect laura comes to mind... No clever action.)

What Ike means is that if he can't persuade Sothe otherwise, he won't hesitate in their fight.

And excatly that "won't hestitate to fight" is what's enraging me.

I would ask myself what the creeping hell is making this boy so desperate as running into his death against me. It would never cross my mind to kill that boy, not one second.

Rather smash and tie him up and have a nice long chat with him afterwards. (Ike could act similiar back in PoR ... (Ike: what? Ranulf: ehehehe... nice weather eh? Ike: we're going to talk. now. *love that scene*)

*sigh* what happend to Ike ...

extra effort to miccy:

It was clear enough at that time that she wouldn't stop. So to ensure there's no unnecessarily more death to count, why not smash her up as quickly as possibly?

He had no qualms against all others anymore too...

@Noktra: It seems you have a personal dislike towards Ike's personality, and that's fine. However, just because you don't like him doesn't mean he's a Gary-Stu.

I never said Ike was Gary Stu! Quite the opposite if I remember correctly. But maybe I didn't make it clear enough...

(I don't even think miccy is a 100% Sue... just an annoyingly bad written character that appears as almost one as bad as the common "Mary Sue")

Ike just suffers from RD a lot...

And yeah I dislike Ike's personalty growth. I had seen at least something in him in PoR. And in RD I was all like: what the hell happend to you, Ike? O_o

Maybe.... I feel... betrayed of my trust or something... In PoR I didn't like him much, but nonetheless if I were a character in Tellius, I had followed him (not out of respect... more like... a babysitter XD ...and to see what becomes of him)

Then RD ... I would never ever again fight by his side just for the sake of his interests. He's much too brutal in my eyes now... I can't put my finger on it... but what ever I saw in him vanished.

There are only glimpses left (like the way he talks to yune in epiloge)

but they don't outweight all the sh** he's talking and doing throughout the game imho ^^;

I have a similiar problem with Micaiah. I quite liked her at first. ( the first 3-4 chapters, she was kinda annoying but I could see ...something...)

Then she got some powers and position and goes all crazy (showing stubborness to an extend of being relentless, kinda dominant and whatnot.) She was all that from the beginning, but I was wondering why the hell no one ever spoke up to her and scolded her?

Micaiah's not as caring as it seems. She makes people think that.

She would've been a great villian.

But as a maincharacter... I either had wished for a turning point in her character (which doesn't happen) or at least some people seeing through her and scolding her... just... some... point of counterpart....

(Tanith is scolding her once as "stupid girl" but come on, Micaiah deserved more than -one-)

Longblahblah short:

emotional way of seeing Ike: I felt he wasn't worth of my respect anymore, I grew to dislike him.

analyzing his character storywise: great in PoR, poor in RD (but still halfway acceptable, at least he has some "counter", Nailah scolding him, yune hating him first, Kurthnaga stomping inbetween etc.)

emotional way of seeing Miccy: not a so-nice person but would-be loveable if she'd had just some part of turning over...

analyzing her character storywise: uuugh... horrible... no "real" counterparts, giving too much change to other characters in too short time / with no aparent reason. making ridiculous silly decisions to press on the story in a forced way. and so on...

All of it could've been great though if her character was just somemore fleshed out...

She had the potential to become great but imho it went to waste. I hate her even more because of that but I should blame it on IS ... poor Miccy

(But still think Miccy had even more potential as a villian instead of a mainchara... hmm playing the villian? wut.... )

To be fair, he can defect. Zihark and Jill are both exceedingly conflicted in part 3. They dont approve of what Micaiah is doing but they follow anyway because they feel she may be in the right in the long run. Which is kinda Suetastic by itself. But since Lethe or Mordy can talk to Zihark about the situation and he can turn on THEIR side, that also acts as a -1 on the Sue-o-meter for Micaiah. Same with Jill. Haar can convince her to change sides too. -1 on the Sue-o-meter for Micaiah again. Is this a +2 for Ike's Sue-o-meter? Well...it could thought of that way but Ike isnt the one that can convince these two to defect to his side.

But we don't really see that struggle. We know why they want to defect, but what's keeping them on Daein's side for now aynway?

Either something changed in Daein (not visible to us) to make them more attached to their home by now or it's Micaiah's suetastic powers...

And to be frank, it's no -suepoint to have them be able to defect at all. It's similiar with Soren aknowledging a dangerous foe - it would be completely out of character to not been able to defect. It's bad enough as it is now... If they weren't recruitable to Ike's side it would make the sue-o-meter explode imho XD

Didn't you say a main character needed different traits to stand out? ^^'. Micaiah never lived through what Stefan did. I don't think she met many laguz before the game so maybe that's why she's not bitter about them and is more accepting to them than the other branded. She lives in Daein but that isn't a reason for her share all their feelings and thoughts. Zihark is similar in that sense he's surrounded by laguz hating environment in PoR and he doesn't share their feelings.

You're mostly saying it yourself. Stefan was mistreated by laguz. we know why he hates them. Zihark had a relationship with a cat(?)-Laguz once (would love to know how that happened though...), but at least we know why he is laguzloving now.

At least we got hints with those two... Micaiah is... out of the blue.

I'm not saying it's weird because it's impossible, it's weird because we aren't given any hint on what made her character up to this point. (IS is leaving every explanation to the fans or what?)

Ike has dialogue with Zihark regarding laguz-tolerance in PoR and Ike hismelf says it may be because he was raised in Gallia even if he don't remember it. It's now up to us players to decide wether this could be or not. At least, it's a hint.... Micaiah is just tolerant out of nowhere.

(Or was this all due to that awesome granny who raised her? Then that Granny is the best mary sue! XD *just kidding*)

That's no different than Shinnon and Soren being laguz haters and staying by Ike's side

Do I really need to explain Shinon and Soren?

Soren says it himself in PoR epilogue (without Ike support): he has no other place to go. Ike was the only one who helped him as a kid (I smell Stu.... XD *kidding*). Soren idolizes Ike and is totally clinging to him (Soren seriously needs help imho.... - don't get me wrong I love Soren ^^)

And Shinon was discussed already: Rolf, GM in the whole

I fear the wall of text again... hell... XD;

[FionordeQuester]

And excatly that "won't hestitate to fight" is what's enraging me. I would ask myself what the creeping hell is making this boy so desperate as running into his death against me. It would never cross my mind to kill that boy, not one second. Rather smash and tie him up and have a nice long chat with him afterwards.

Do you really think you're going to be able to reliably do that against someone who's trying to kill you, all while trying to lead an army? That kind of thinking would interfere with your fighting ability.

[bottlegnomes]

Adding to that, wouldn't Ike have to afford the same to everyone? It'd be incredibly difficult to keep everyone in the enemy army as prisoners. Why treat Sothe differently? Ike probably feels it would be an insult to Sothe to go easy just because they know each other.

[Lord Raven]

"Even though we've been operating without you up until now."

"But unlike last time, we seriously got a lot of shit to do"

If we keep this up we might rescript Greil as a character who lives through Chapter 7. might.