Regarding Ike

[Sunwoo]

One thing that I did like about Ike over other lords in other FE games I've played (only FE7-11, bear with me here) was that he actually had to WORK to gain the trust of some of his allies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn didn't seem like they had to really "work" for their potential allies to accept them and come to their side. Legault (longtime member of the Black Fang) was on his way to deserting. Nino was quite easily swayed. Jaffar joined for Nino, but he didn't seem to "mind" fighting with the lords. Heath was trying to surrender. Vaida joins up with them willingly because they saved Zephiel. Ninian and Nils seem a bit distant, but even earning their trust doesn't seem to be quite as difficult compared to stuff Ike had to do.

Ephraim and Eirika. Hmm ... well, everyone loves Eirika, I'm pretty sure. I've heard that in Ephraim's route, Ephraim does get some lectures from Seth, but I haven't played Ephraim's route in a while. Although ... not much stands out for me here.

Micaiah, oh Micaiah. I don't get you at all. You're Branded. You're raised in Daein. Why are you so accepting of laguz? Why do the wolves and Rafiel accept you immediately? Why is the entire Dawn Brigade all, "oh, Micaiah said it so it must be true"? Why does Daein worship you, when they never did the same for every other FE lord? What did you do to Sothe, Jill, and Zihark? Whywhywhy ... My point being that while Ike is a "spotlight stealer" in FE10, especially part 3, I think that Daein likes Micaiah a little - too - much.

Ike? The laguz don't immediately like him. Quite the opposite, actually, especially with the bird tribes. He had to - save Leanne - in a ridiculous 4-part chapter before the birds even so much as speak civilly with him. He has to earn Lethe's trust. (Mordecai seems to like everyone, so Ike's not an exception here.)

[Lord Raven]

Ephraim and Eirika. Hmm ... well, everyone loves Eirika, I'm pretty sure. I've heard that in Ephraim's route, Ephraim does get some lectures from Seth, but I haven't played Ephraim's route in a while. Although ... not much stands out for me here.

Innes hates Ephraim doesn't he?

Micaiah, oh Micaiah. I don't get you at all. You're Branded. You're raised in Daein. Why are you so accepting of laguz? Why do the wolves and Rafiel accept you immediately? Why is the entire Dawn Brigade all, "oh, Micaiah said it so it must be true"? Why does Daein worship you, when they never did the same for every other FE lord? What did you do to Sothe, Jill, and Zihark?

I thought Micaiah was an orphan in Daein. I think she knows of her mark and everything behind it, if anything subconsciously (thinking back to the fact that she sung the Galdrar at the end of 3-E despite the fact that she's never sang it before). A lot of it has to do with Daein people being idiots- they overthrow Begnion in a similar fashion to Ike.

In fact, a lot of FE10's characterization plot traces back to Ike's story, so people are far more willing to believe and fall for stuff like this because it's happened before. Part 1 and 2 presents two sides of the coin, and people are far more willing to respect the Mercenary that helps out as opposed to the ruler if Ike's of any indication. That, and the fact that people tend to be sheep as a whole.

[Sunwoo]

Innes hates Ephraim doesn't he?

I figured that was just a rivalry thing. Besides, Ephraim has King Frelia's trust and it's not like Innes wouldn't support Ephraim militarily if they were fighting for the same cause.

I thought Micaiah was an orphan in Daein. I think she knows of her mark and everything behind it, if anything subconsciously (thinking back to the fact that she sung the Galdrar at the end of 3-E despite the fact that she's never sang it before). A lot of it has to do with Daein people being idiots- they overthrow Begnion in a similar fashion to Ike.

In fact, a lot of FE10's characterization plot traces back to Ike's story, so people are far more willing to believe and fall for stuff like this because it's happened before. Part 1 and 2 presents two sides of the coin, and people are far more willing to respect the Mercenary that helps out as opposed to the ruler if Ike's of any indication. That, and the fact that people tend to be sheep as a whole.

Fair enough. I think that FE10 could have spent more time on character development than it did. I probably wouldn't be calling Micaiah a Mary Sue if she were better written.

[Lord Raven]

Yeah, that's more or less how I rationalized it in the end. I played FE9 again and FE10 right after, reading the dialogue- the ending to FE9 says that Ike will inspire ugly ambition, and FE10 says "We can do this! It happened in Crimea!" a fair amount, which gave a lot of sense to everything Sephiran said at the end of FE9.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Lord Raven

[Momo]

Ike's "flaws" never affect anything in any real way. Leading a company all by yourself is apparently a hard thing to do, but we never see any proof that Ike isn't completely up to the task. Saying "gee, this stuff is hard" doesn't really cut it. He's apparently sheltered and hates mobility, but he spends almost the entire first game with them and acts just like any other lord would. I'd say he's a Mary Sue in the same way all the protagonists are.

In this game I feel that, while it's true, it doesn't seem as apparent because Ike isn't really an important character as far as the plot goes. While he's the leader of an army, he's mostly around because he can fight really well, rather than being some kind of diplomat.

[Lord Raven]

can we all define what a mary sue is before randomly calling characters that? thanks

[Sunwoo]

All right, here's a question for all of you. What makes Ike (and Micaiah by extension, I guess) much more of a Mary Sue than all the other lords in the FE games?

I'm going to take FE7 as an example. Let's look at Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn. What makes these three less likely to be called "Mary Sues" than Ike or Micaiah? Eliwood: he's a kind, just ruler who fights Nergal not out of revenge but because he is a madman who must truly be stopped. That by itself makes him look "better of a person" than Ike, whose primary motivating factor against the Black Knight is revenge. Eliwood is forgiving, does not care for class, is a "good noble" through and through, and so on. What makes him less of a Sue than Ike? Same reasoning applies for Hector and Lyn and all lords of other FE games you've played.

[General Banzai]

Well, actually, we're supposed to see that leading a company is hard while we're playing the game. The actual leadership is typically delegated to us, the player--managing inventory, planning tactics, etc. It doesn't help, however, that PoR is very easy. This is a video game, after all; not a book or movie. We as the player are fulfilling part of the story.

It's kind of strange. PoR claims that what Ike does is difficult, when it really isn't; FERD Part 1 claims that what Micaiah does is easy, when it really isn't. There's a bit of a disconnect on both ends, but I think PoR's is less offensive because we as players are more likely to view the pre-written parts of the game as story, rather than the parts that are in control.

Meanwhile, I think Leaf is the least textbook Mary Sue; he's kind of a dope whose personal decisions typically lead to bad ends (let's charge into Manster! whoops captured ; let's charge into Alster! whoops Dorias is dead), and who is in a state of complete reliance on August to get anything done. Even at the end of Chapter 24, Leaf says something to the effect of "Okay, we need to go in, save Evayle, and end Veld's tyranny!" and then ends his speech with "...Right, August?"

Guess what, though: while this whole situation is very interesting from a plot perspective, Leaf himself has got to be one of the least impressive lords in the series (which is aided by his poor ingame performance; see the story/gameplay discussion at the beginning of this post).

[Anouleth]

Losing Shinon and Gatrie is a serious blow.

On the other hand, it's not really Ike's fault that they won't give him a chance. In the end, Ike ends up vindicated. It's not like they left because Ike screwed up a mission or made a serious mistake because of his inexperience.

You could argue that Ike's trusting nature is what allows Nasir to steal the Fire Emblem (a major consequence).

How was Ike supposed to know that Nasir was a spy? It's not like Soren shows him some evidence, and Ike dismisses it because he doesn't trust Nasir.

And although the game doesn't treat it as a flaw, Ike's quest for revenge against the Black Knight can have terrible consequences (by engaging the Black Knight in C11 or C24). But I completely disagree with your assesment of Ike's unthinking bluntness. It is not just an endearing character flaw.

But it is an endearing character flaw. It gives Ike lots of opportunities to bravely stick up for his friends and show off just what a great guy he is. In the same way, Bella's clumsiness in Twilight only serves to give Edward opportunities to catch and show off just what a great guy he is. Hence why everyone calls her a Mary Sue despite that token flaw.

Sanaki shows some character herself by forgiving Ike's outburst in C14. But it is made very clear to Ike in C14 that, because Elincia and the fate of Crimea depend on Sanaki's mercy, his outburst was the wrong thing to do - and any future outbursts could lead to terrible consequences. Nobody applauds Ike for this particular outburst.

"Sanaki

Now then, Ike. I fully understand your feelings. Your passion for your employer is truly a beautiful thing. Would that my own fawning vassals shared your commitment."

"Elincia

No. I...What you said, you said in my defense and in my honor. It made me very pleased.

Ike

Huh?

Elincia

To see you so angry on my behalf...Your words filled my heart."

Sure fucking sounds like he's being applauded. Soren agrees that the customs are "madness". Nasir admits that him not being executed is a "miracle" (i.e. Ike is Special because he's just so darn shucks good and sticks up for Elincia). And he's fully justified. Ike's "flaw" is that he's TOO passionate in sticking up for his friends when they're being mocked and shat on by Sanaki. Some flaw. And who are the people who get angry? The eeeeeeevil Senators, of course.

So Ike reforms his behavior and never actually suffers consequences for this character flaw. That doesn't make the flaw (clearly identified as such in C14) any less real, it just demonstrates character growth.

¬_¬

Beyond Ike's character flaws (which, indeed, are few), Ike makes personal growth in his combat skills (aided by Stefan and his Titania/Lethe supports) and leadership ability (aided heavily by Soren, Titania, and Nasir). Ike's growth in both of these dimensions is evident throughout the game. It's easy to understate this, but few video game stories manage to pull this off. Ike believably grows in competence and confidence throughout FE9.

Wasn't one of Ike's "flaws" that he was too reckless and overconfident in earlygame? Tell me, when did Ike lack for confidence?

One can hardly find a piece of fiction without such heros. But Ike, like most fictional heros, needs to make some personal growth to overcome the obstacles in his story. This makes him an interesting character (in FE9).

Really? Please, is there any challenge that the Ike of Chapter 1 could not overcome due to a personality flaw? How is he different from the Ike of Chapter 28 in terms of personality? Oh sure, he's a better fighter and more knowledgeable and more respected, but how is he different, specifically, in terms of personality?

[Chiki]

Really? Please, is there any challenge that the Ike of Chapter 1 could not overcome due to a personality flaw? How is he different from the Ike of Chapter 28 in terms of personality? Oh sure, he's a better fighter and more knowledgeable and more respected, but how is he different, specifically, in terms of personality?

Confident?

Wasn't one of Ike's "flaws" that he was too reckless and overconfident in earlygame? Tell me, when did Ike lack for confidence?

Recklessness /=/ confidence. They're two different things.

Edited July 28, 2012 by Aeine

[Loki Laufeyson]

One thing that I did like about Ike over other lords in other FE games I've played (only FE7-11, bear with me here) was that he actually had to WORK to gain the trust of some of his allies.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Eliwood, Hector, and Lyn didn't seem like they had to really "work" for their potential allies to accept them and come to their side. Legault (longtime member of the Black Fang) was on his way to deserting. Nino was quite easily swayed. Jaffar joined for Nino, but he didn't seem to "mind" fighting with the lords. Heath was trying to surrender. Vaida joins up with them willingly because they saved Zephiel. Ninian and Nils seem a bit distant, but even earning their trust doesn't seem to be quite as difficult compared to stuff Ike had to do.

Ephraim and Eirika. Hmm ... well, everyone loves Eirika, I'm pretty sure. I've heard that in Ephraim's route, Ephraim does get some lectures from Seth, but I haven't played Ephraim's route in a while. Although ... not much stands out for me here.

Micaiah, oh Micaiah. I don't get you at all. You're Branded. You're raised in Daein. Why are you so accepting of laguz? Why do the wolves and Rafiel accept you immediately? Why is the entire Dawn Brigade all, "oh, Micaiah said it so it must be true"? Why does Daein worship you, when they never did the same for every other FE lord? What did you do to Sothe, Jill, and Zihark? Whywhywhy ... My point being that while Ike is a "spotlight stealer" in FE10, especially part 3, I think that Daein likes Micaiah a little - too - much.

Ike? The laguz don't immediately like him. Quite the opposite, actually, especially with the bird tribes. He had to - save Leanne - in a ridiculous 4-part chapter before the birds even so much as speak civilly with him. He has to earn Lethe's trust. (Mordecai seems to like everyone, so Ike's not an exception here.)

Arr. Theres a lot of squabbling with the Laguz and Ike in the early part of the game and when dealing with the bird tribes. If Ike was a true Sue, Reyson would be all "Oh youve come to save me! Im so grateful even though yer a beorc!" Instead hes all "Screw you, human!" and shouts about the massacre and flies away. Lethe really hates him and the rest of the lot for a good while. Most of that is actually discussed in her supports with Ike. (and Jill)

As for the FE7 lords, the only one who seems to have to work at junk is Hector but even then its debatable. The guys at the beginning are following Hector because Uther said so. The rest, because Eliwood. People bark at Hector all the time. The only problem is that we dont really see many consequences of Hector's actions. The only thing that comes close is the business with Uther and his death. So i do feel Ike is better written in FE9 than those guys.

I figured that was just a rivalry thing. Besides, Ephraim has King Frelia's trust and it's not like Innes wouldn't support Ephraim militarily if they were fighting for the same cause.

Fair enough. I think that FE10 could have spent more time on character development than it did. I probably wouldn't be calling Micaiah a Mary Sue if she were better written.

Ephraim does stupid junk and is praised for it. So yeah. And his thing with Innes is a rivalry. Innes doesnt hate Ephraim.

Arr about Micaiah. Girl had a lot of potential to be a pretty solid character. There was a lot of room for character development even as is. The writers chose not to do that. She reminds me of a really terribly written Daenerys. (only without the royal bit) Goes from being nigh powerless to having an entire nation thinking of her as a savior. If they focused a bit more on Micaiah's faults and the consequences of her actions, and had a better reveal about her true nature, (and character development) she would have been a pretty cool character.

It's kind of strange. PoR claims that what Ike does is difficult, when it really isn't

Gameplay and Story segregation here.

[Sunwoo]

But it is an endearing character flaw. It gives Ike lots of opportunities to bravely stick up for his friends and show off just what a great guy he is. In the same way, Bella's clumsiness in Twilight only serves to give Edward opportunities to catch and show off just what a great guy he is. Hence why everyone calls her a Mary Sue despite that token flaw.

I just wanted to say that clumsiness isn't a flaw. Not unless being clumsy leads to other things that are TRULY flaws, such as if you are a ninja but you're so loud and clumsy that you always sabotage your mission? Bella's clumsiness, in her situation, isn't exactly a flaw.

Also, while we're on Bella, I think the reason she is a Mary Sue is because she is self-centered, manipulative, whiny, everyone-dependent, and so-fucking-special that all the boys and vampires want her ... but we as the readers cannot see what i so likable about her. Basically, we can't find one thing good about her, and yet everyone in-universe loves her. Huh?

Getting to Ike stuff later.

[Loki Laufeyson]

In Bella's case, shes not the only Sue in that series but yeah. Shes horribly judgmental, downright mean to many people (including her father), and yet everyone loves her anyway. But shes not alone. Everyone loves Edward and the rest of the Cullens too. Despite Edward being a creeper and a dick, hes still regarded as the better match than the nice guy Jacob. Lets not forget the ridiculous amount of plot armor everyone in that series gets. Come on, Meyer, you couldnt even ice your villain? Pussy...

Even Micaiah is more believable than Bella.

[Ciarre]

I think Edward's an even worse Sue, but that's just me.

[General Banzai]

Gameplay and Story segregation here.

No such thing

[CrashGordon94]

No such thing

Uh, YES THERE IS! It's a widely acknowledged concept! It even has a flipping TV Tropes page!

[Lord Raven]

FE9 MM was pretty hard, it wasn't like Lunatic/etc levels of hard but it is generally fairly hard

[bottlegnomes]

No such thing

Yes there is. Unless a character is capable of doing everything in the gameplay he or she can in the "story segments" there's a separation. Ike can't actually use both of his hands to wield his sword, despite scenes showing him doing so. Another example is how Lethe and Mordecai literally ran through half a dozen enemies each, killing them all, in a cutscene while the can accomplish no similar feat in actual gameplay. That's story/gameplay segregation. That segregation arises from a combination of the hardware being unable to match the CG in gameplay (eg Dante having more than 10 ways to swing his sword in the CGs) and problems that would arise from sticking too strictly to the story for gameplay (eg

Aerith dying from a stab in the back but being able to resurrect dead people with an item that can be bought relatively cheaply at any store

). Denying its existence is stupid. Whether you feel it's acceptable or not (obviously the latter for you) is perfectly fine.

As for Ike, I don't actually remember the last time I payed attention to the story of a fire emblem game, so I can't really speak on it. But from what I remember and what people have said, I'm willing to go with him not being a Sue in 9 and a Sue in 10.

Also, Ano, any character can be caricaturized into a bad character easily enough. Ike shows growth throughout the game, like getting out of his father's shadow and becoming less impulsive. Most recent FE lords do. Hector does. Lyn does a bit, but not in the main story. Ephraim does. Don't honestly remember Eirika. Eliwood not so much. Fuck FE10's shit, since next to no one develops. Marth is probably the flattest lord in the series.

Banzai, most early FE lord has been pretty reliant on a tactician. Marth doesn't make any decisions without Malledus in book 1 and Jagen in book 2. Sigurd doesn't do anything without Oifey. Celice to Levin. Roy to Merlinus, though I do recall you saying something about Roy disagreeing with him once. But if that's all, that's not much. I would really consider Leaf special in that regard.

[General Banzai]

No, you merely bring up other examples of gameplay and story contradiction. However, there is no separation.

Edited July 29, 2012 by General Banzai

[Baldrick]

So you're saying pressing button on the controller of a video game console is the same as leading an army into battle, killing enemy soldiers, etc.?

[Bryan]

Recklessness /=/ confidence. They're two different things.

Actually, recklessness can spring from overconfidence. Just look at the examples with Leaf, he tries and fails to capture key points because he thinks he can.

As to the whole "Laguz and such and so hate Ike" I personally don't feel that being hated for the sins of your fathers is a character flaw. If anything, it would serve to make us like Ike more. "People hate him not for something he did, but for something his grandparents did" He didn't do anything wrong!

[Anouleth]

Confident?

Really? Ike is not confident in earlygame? So when Ike had no problem with becoming the leader straight after Greil died (despite his inexperience), that wasn't confidence in his own ability to lead? If Ike didn't think he was up to becoming Commander, why did he accept the position? Can you show evidence that Ike did not think he could command?

"Ike

I'm not saying that to gain anyone's pity. It's the truth. But even so, I have no intention of giving up command of this company."

[Baldrick]

^^ One of the primary characteristics of a Mary Sue is that they are loved by people who, according to the plot, should detest them. The fact laguz hate Ike at first doesn't signify anything about Ike; it's meant to demonstrate the state of beorc-laguz relations. Of course, I'm going off hearsay, so I may be way off.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Baldrick

[Momo]

What laguz hate Ike? Are you talking about Lethe? She doesn't like Ike because she's an intolerant bitch. Do you mean the ravens? They're just dicks in general, they didn't do it because of Ike or anything.

Likewise the dragons helping them wasn't because of Ike's Mary Sueness either. They were just glad someone new showed up.

Edited July 29, 2012 by Momo

[Sunwoo]

The non-raven bird laguz didn't seem to like Ike or the other beorc much. Reyson calls him a human and runs away after Ike tries to help him. Tibarn, Janaff, and Ulki are only persuaded to help after they see Ike and his crew trying to protect Leanne. Forget about them?