Regarding Ike

[Loki Laufeyson]

To be honest, this whole thing sounds really misogynistic. Ike does a bunch of awesome shit (and, as Cynthia pointed out, pretty much easily and without fault) and is a badass who deserves the praise he gets. But when Micaiah does similar things (the similarity of part 1 RD to PoR is even referenced in RD) and even makes mistakes along the way, she's a Mary Sue. If Micaiah were male, had her dialogue edited such that it sounded more "badass," and perhaps even used a physical weapon, but otherwise has the same effect on the plot...would people have any problem with this character?

Wtf? lol. Uhh no.

I've called out male characters on being Gary Stus before (although admittedly mostly in fanfic or other non-canon stories), and if Micaiah was a male character whose dialogue sounded more "badass" and used a physical weapon ... I'd still call him a Stu if pretty much nothing else was changed about him. The thing about Micaiah in part 1 of RD sometimes make it sound like no one else is allowed to shine. For example, who tells Izuka that attacking Talrega is a bad idea? Micaiah. Not Jill, the girl who lives there, but Micaiah. Who is worshipped by the country that she is saving, despite no other lord ever being "worshipped" the same way? That's right, Micaiah. Who boots Sanaki as the "true" apostle? You guessed it again.

Even if Micaiah were a male who sounded "badass", I'd still call him a Sue with his "unique healing-with-a-touch" powers, if Daein worshipped him to the point of ridiculousness (come on, no other FE lord got THIS much love from the people they were saving. NONE.), if he still didn't hate laguz despite being Branded and from Daein, if everyone in the Dawn Brigade was still like, "oh, Micaiah said it so it must be true" ... yeah. Again, I think the thing on Micaiah is not so much her abilities, but poor writing. I feel as if the writers didn't go in-depth about her enough, making her seem more like a Sue instead of a well-rounded character.

Basically this.

Micaiah's problem isnt because shes a female or anything like that. Its because she doesnt grow as a character and is really badly written. Arguably so is Ike in FE10 and most of the game in general. If Micaiah was a dude, the character would still be annoyingly Sue-ish. If FE9 hadnt happened, i would also think Ike is a Sue.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

eh i always thought of every fire emblem lord having sue traits and being pretty close to being sues/actually being one.

i will say that ike is more of a sue then micaiah though, just because while micaiah carries more traits, ike is more flawless and perfect inuniverse and ingameplay.

[Florete]

Wtf? lol. Uhh no.

Uh, yeah, the way what I quoted put it. People often call her out but give Ike a free pass. I'm not saying that anyone who thinks she's a sue is a misogynist, but sometimes people definitely seem to go that way. Clearly you are not one of those from what you said, but that doesn't speak for the others.

[Sunwoo]

If Ike were the female and if Micaiah were the male, I'd still feel the same way about them as I do now, if nothing else were changed.

[eclipse]

I'm not too fond of Micaiah because she has a lot of innate magical things that are specific to her - Ike wasn't born with the power to see the future and heal by touch, for example. She's made even more special when we find out that she had a goddess hanging out with her, and that she's a lost princess. Ike. . .we knew from the beginning that his father led a mercenary company; we later learn that his father used to be a really good swordsman. One was born with her gifts, the other had to put some effort into them.

EDIT: If Ike was as innately twinkly as Micaiah, I'd probably dislike him.

Edited August 2, 2012 by eclipse

[Jedi]

eh i always thought of every fire emblem lord having sue traits and being pretty close to being sues/actually being one.

i will say that ike is more of a sue then micaiah though, just because while micaiah carries more traits, ike is more flawless and perfect inuniverse and ingameplay.

Tell that to Ike in Chapter 8 of path or radiance when he nearly got his whole company killed or when Shinon and Gatrie left, or when he nearly got Rolf and Mist killed in chapter 2 due to his and Boyd's recklessness

He failed to defeat the Black Knight twice, he was on the run from Daein for almost a year. Perfect? Ha

[Florete]

If Ike were the female and if Micaiah were the male, I'd still feel the same way about them as I do now, if nothing else were changed.

I'm not saying otherwise, at least about you specifically. Some people would feel the same, some people think they would, and some people would not. Though there's no way to find out, I believe the number on those last two is surprisingly high.

[Jimmy_Smith]

let get it to the test.

mary sue test

I try to test Ike, and the result doesn't looking good, He get 48 score(very sue)

36+

Fanfiction authors, you might just want to start over. Role-players and original fiction authors, at this point your characters are likely to provoke eye-rolling and exclaimations of "yeah, right!" from your readers. (Well, at least from me.) Immediate workover is probably in order.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Jimmy_Smith

[Jedi]

let get it to the test.

mary sue test

I try to test Ike, and the result doesn't looking good, He get 48 score(very sue)

Now be fair and test every lord and see how they compare, don't restrict this BS just to Ike, why not spread it around

Oh wait being fair would complicate your point. I'm sorry.

Too much personal opinion on "test" that to really count

Edited August 2, 2012 by Jedi

[Rehab]

I got 38 for Ike on that myself, and could conceivably have gotten under 36 if I'd put slightly different, yet reasonable answers to some of the questions.

I think I've seen that test before, and it's true it isn't 100% exhaustive or impartial, but I think it's a good effort, being that I think what it's trying to test is impossible to define perfectly.

Personal test: is Ike a self-insert fan character? No? welp

[Just call me AL]

I honestly think those Mary Sue limitus tests are bogus anyways. A character could have any number of so-called "Mary Sue traits", and still be considered a well-written character. Conversely, a character could have none of the traits that are supposedly associated with Mary Sues, and still become a Mary Sue himself/herself. All of the listed traits on those tests are just traits that pop up in fiction every now and then, and are only listed on Mary Sue limitus tests by the authors of the tests in question in hopes of eradicating characters with those traits regardless of whether they really are a Sue or not.

[Jimmy_Smith]

Now be fair and test every lord and see how they compare, don't restrict this BS just to Ike, why not spread it around

Oh wait being fair would complicate your point. I'm sorry.

Too much personal opinion on "test" that to really count

Testing other lord don't get as much as Ike.(except Michiah, she may has more score than Ike)

And maybe Ike is being in 2 game, he has more time to correct the sue score.

Ike get most of "Sue score" for

-being the best at anything he try(consider "The best" swordsman ever walk on earth, other lord don't get this).

-His view about Laguz (has unusally free, enlightened, or "liberated" views on topics such as sex and equality for his time/place)

-fuck up with authority but walk away unscratch.

-his crash with Black Knight (oh man, he get maybe 10 scores for this alone)

main villian who kill his father? check. Witness his father dead? check. The villain spare him despite can kill him with little afford? check. Main villain has personal obsession with him? check. AND obsession because of his family not himself? double check.

PS. I will try Sigurd with this test, soon and let see the result.

Edited August 2, 2012 by Jimmy_Smith

[eclipse]

The test isn't meant to be taken super-literally. It's meant as an indicator, with the "ratings" being arbitrary. Saying "include flaws, and try not to make your character omniscient and omnipotent" isn't something that all writers can grasp - thus, the test.

[Rehab]

The Black Knight also butt owned him first fight, predictably. Ike's not the best at everything he "tries," imo, like he doesn't do something silly like pick up the violin and zip through a world-renowned solo, he's just top tier at what he trains to do, and is molded by experience.

Theoretically, Ike doesn't do anything that nobody else in the game's universe could do, given all the same experience in the same position, and he's not the only badass (screw you firefox that's totally a word*) in town. He's not a freak of nature, even if he is a bit larger than life.

*and no I don't have to capitalize your name if I don't wanna

Edited August 2, 2012 by Rehab

[bottlegnomes]

I honestly think those Mary Sue limitus tests are bogus anyways. A character could have any number of so-called "Mary Sue traits", and still be considered a well-written character. Conversely, a character could have none of the traits that are supposedly associated with Mary Sues, and still become a Mary Sue himself/herself. All of the listed traits on those tests are just traits that pop up in fiction every now and then, and are only listed on Mary Sue limitus tests by the authors of the tests in question in hopes of eradicating characters with those traits regardless of whether they really are a Sue or not.

I have to agree with this. I wrote a story for class this year and was curious so I put the main character through. He ended up getting a 49, so higher than Ike (if I wasn't sure on a question I went with yes). That being said, most people liked him and the people who didn't like him didn't because they either didn't like him at a personal level, felt like he was too apathetic, generally the opposite of a Sue by my understanding, or kind of missed the point of the story, and I legitimately mean that (a lot of other people completely got it). There were also a lot of questions that I couldn't honestly say no to despite them being very important parts of the story, as in the story wouldn't exist without them, and they didn't exactly make the character seem perfect. Another part of it was that I largely based the character off myself. Basing a character off yourself or someone you know is perfectly acceptable because it simplifies creating a believable character. Also, some of those questions are also just silly. LIke does the character have a job that he/she picked because he/she thought it sounded neat? Most people pick jobs because the jobs interest them, so unless your character has a job he/she thought sounded awful or was apathetic towards before taking, you'd have to say yes to that question.

EDIT: Being somewhat lax, the same character got 17. So yeah, the test has some issues.

Edited August 2, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Jimmy_Smith]

I test Sigurd with that sue test.

And he get only 8 score.

[Ciarre]

The test is stupid. You could put yourself or a real life person through the test and they could possibly score off the charts. It only has traits, not the effect of the character on the plot, which is the most important thing.

This site deconstructs the test question by question, and you don't have to read it all, but the majority of the questions can be justified in a story context.

[Jimmy_Smith]

The test is stupid. You could put yourself or a real life person through the test and they could possibly score off the charts. It only has traits, not the effect of the character on the plot, which is the most important thing.

This site deconstructs the test question by question, and you don't have to read it all, but the majority of the questions can be justified in a story context.

I agree that we shouldn't take the sue test much seriously.

But the counter-argument at that side is very weak.(if not lame)

[Rehab]

This site deconstructs the test question by question, and you don't have to read it all, but the majority of the questions can be justified in a story context.

"Perhaps your name is Michael"

h-hello?

(Good link, I think it provides a good deal of fair counterpoints)

Edited August 2, 2012 by Rehab

[Jedi]

I agree that we shouldn't take the sue test much seriously.

But the counter-argument at that side is very weak.(if not lame)

Ok stronger argument against Ike being a sue coming right up

Ike has leadership thrown onto him from a young age, but he nearly gets the company killed [see my post on chapter's 2 and 8 for examples], his rashness and blunt nature also almost get the group not allowed in Bennion if Ike were a mary sue wouldn't they beg him to take over? Or bow to him due to his "Greatness" that everyone on the "Ike is a sue lol" argument keeps preaching about? and the Senate doesn't like him OR Sanaki

He gets defeated twice by the Black Knight and he learns from both encounters.. I fail to see what makes Ike so DAMN different from the other Lords who get sympathy and have everyone join them the instant they talk to them unless they are vile and foul.

He isn't a noble his parents aren't either, every other FE lord till that point HAD ROYAL CONNECTIONS. Does Ike? No he gets given a title which he tosses away because he HATES It. So why don't we call EVERY single lord a sue? Huh? Tell me I want to hear this

He becomes INFAMOUS in Daein. When they could have written them loving Ike due to him "saving" them from Ashnard, do they? Hell No.

Edit: Also his parents being dead and/or gone and related to the story... Um.. just about every FE Lord has that

Edited August 2, 2012 by Jedi

[Florete]

The arguments for Ike being a Stu are pretty much always RD-related, not PoR, and all that is from PoR except:

No he gets given a title which he tosses away because he HATES It. So why don't we call EVERY single lord a sue? Huh? Tell me I want to hear this

1. I'd say the title thing makes him even more of a Stu. "I'm so special and got this awesome title despite having been a lowly mercenary, but I'm too cool for it so I threw it away."

2. Every single lord is a Sue.

Hey, you wanted to hear it.

In all seriousness, I do think most FE lords are about as Sue as each other, but it never really bothers me. FE isn't exactly high literature, and video games as a whole often intend for the players to insert themselves as the main character, so it's no surprise that most FE lords have Sue traits.

And Ike is sort of tied to Daein nobility. At least, if his father had never left his position at Daein, Ike would probably be some sort of duke or something. Or he may even have ended up inheriting his dad's title as one of whatever-Greil-was.

[Jedi]

The arguments for Ike being a Stu are pretty much always RD-related, not PoR, and all that is from PoR except:

1. I'd say the title thing makes him even more of a Stu. "I'm so special and got this awesome title despite having been a lowly mercenary, but I'm too cool for it so I threw it away."

2. Every single lord is a Sue.

Hey, you wanted to hear it.

In all seriousness, I do think most FE lords are about as Sue as each other, but it never really bothers me. FE isn't exactly high literature, and video games as a whole often intend for the players to insert themselves as the main character, so it's no surprise that most FE lords have Sue traits.

And Ike is sort of tied to Daein nobility. At least, if his father had never left his position at Daein, Ike would probably be some sort of duke or something. Or he may even have ended up inheriting his dad's title as one of whatever-Greil-was.

Ok fair enough points there, I should have thought a bit more before I threw that line out there. I just see Ike singled out for being a sue so much and I have no idea why, people could bring up the various other lords.. But then again Tellius seems to cause nothing but arguments..

Edited August 2, 2012 by Jedi

[Momo]

Because these two games are the most prominent ones most fans of the series have seen, and probably in the series. They clearly intended for Radiant Dawn to be really "epic", so it's easy to see where it goes wrong.

[Just call me AL]

In all seriousness, I do think most FE lords are about as Sue as each other, but it never really bothers me. FE isn't exactly high literature, and video games as a whole often intend for the players to insert themselves as the main character, so it's no surprise that most FE lords have Sue traits.

Same could be said for quite a few other video game characters. Only difference is that a typical Mary Sue usually exists for the author's wish fulfilment, while video game characters, as well as other fictional characters out there, serve as a sort of escape from reality to the reader/viewer/player. They're often listed as Escapist Characters because of this.

And Ike is sort of tied to Daein nobility. At least, if his father had never left his position at Daein, Ike would probably be some sort of duke or something. Or he may even have ended up inheriting his dad's title as one of whatever-Greil-was.

Didn't Daeinese rulers choose their top knights by strength? Or was that exclusive to Ashnard's rule only? Edited August 2, 2012 by Little Al

[Florete]

Same could be said for quite a few other video game characters. Only difference is that a typical Mary Sue usually exists for the author's wish fulfilment, while video game characters, as well as other fictional characters out there, serve as a sort of escape from reality to the reader/viewer/player. An Escapist Character, if you will.

Yeha, that's why I said "video games as a whole." After all, the idea behind characters like Link and Mario never talking is all self-insertion/escapism. And most video game protagonists are male because the target demographic is mostly male (and when you want a female protagonist, Lollipop Chainsaw comes along). Although there's no saying that an author's wish fulfillment won't also be their reader's; that's how Twilight got so popular.

Didn't Daeinese rulers choose their top knights by strength? Or was that factor exclusive to Ashnard's rule only?

Eh, I don't remember that far. Even if that's the case, Ike would probably still make it if RD is any indication.