Regarding Ike

[Rehab]

I think it's just fantasy characters. Or fictional characters. Let's face it, the life of Joe Blow isn't often going to make for an interesting read, unless the author takes it in an uncommonly contemplative direction. Even real people have lived lives that would fly off the charts on that test- as the response CR posted makes a point to say, over half the world is "above-average," so I think the term 'Stu loses its meaning quickly when the story isn't just blatantly poorly written.

[Loki Laufeyson]

but give Ike a free pass.

Yeah because of FE9! Where he goes from common green boy sellsword to a war hero. With all sorts of perilous roadblocks and bumps along the road. It has nothing to do with him having a member! Ike's character growth happens in FE9. I expected Micaiah's growth to go a similar way. It didnt happen and she was pumped full of weird powers and stuff (and three different titles!) but never grows as a character. Leaving her rather static and seems incredibly Sue-ish. I also think Sothe got a really short end of the stick too. His character smells worse than week old unwashed smallclothes.

Yes, Ike could have used more development in FE10. I dont think anyone will dispute that. But i think Ike is one of the more well rounded lords in the series.

It is accurate to put the title of Escapist Character on Micaiah. Because thats exactly what she is. The writers pumped her full of powers, made her have striking features, everyone fawns over her, etc. But the writers went too far i think. She had wayy too many people falling into line at the beginning of Part 4. Escapist Characters are not always Sues. Harry Potter isnt a Sue despite having a great deal of traits. (and the first two books do make him look very Sue. Until character development and conflict happens.)

[Lord Raven]

1. I'd say the title thing makes him even more of a Stu. "I'm so special and got this awesome title despite having been a lowly mercenary, but I'm too cool for it so I threw it away."

The fact that he's humble makes him a Stu? I think a lot of people from Ike's sort of upbringing would hate that sort of title and the attention that comes with it.

[Jimmy_Smith]

Ike has leadership thrown onto him from a young age, but he nearly gets the company killed [see my post on chapter's 2 and 8 for examples], his rashness and blunt nature also almost get the group not allowed in Bennion if Ike were a mary sue wouldn't they beg him to take over?

- Agree at this point, this is not sue.

Or bow to him due to his "Greatness" that everyone on the "Ike is a sue lol" argument keeps preaching about? and the Senate doesn't like him OR Sanaki

- getting hated by selfish and/or evil persons is common sue trail(and Sanaki is end up liking him)

He gets defeated twice by the Black Knight and he learns from both encounters.. I fail to see what makes Ike so DAMN different from the other Lords who get sympathy and have everyone join them the instant they talk to them unless they are vile and foul.

-getting spare by villain and come back to kicking his butt in the end is also sue trait, (losing in fair fight to more skill fighter, main villain and/or rival is not de-suifiers, hell this is really in that sue test )

He isn't a noble his parents aren't either, every other FE lord till that point HAD ROYAL CONNECTIONS. Does Ike? No he gets given a title which he tosses away because he HATES It. So why don't we call EVERY single lord a sue? Huh? Tell me I want to hear this

- Getting respect by other when you are not noble is more sue than when you are one.(it's make him more special)

And being noble is not sue if most of the cast are noble like previous FE game.

He becomes INFAMOUS in Daein. When they could have written them loving Ike due to him "saving" them from Ashnard, do they? Hell No.

-Loving by ally and be feared by enemy are normal sue trail.

single or a few sue traits are not make anyone sue but accumulative of too much traits are.

The right among of sue trails can make the story more interesting, like spice to the food, but adding too much can ruin it.

[Florete]

The fact that he's humble makes him a Stu? I think a lot of people from Ike's sort of upbringing would hate that sort of title and the attention that comes with it.

So you're basically saying nobles can't be humble? This is not him being humble, especially not the way it was actually written into the story.

Note that I do not necessarily think this makes him a Stu at all, I just think it's more likely to be a Stu trait than an argument against him being one.

[Jedi]

Jimmy, you do bring up some good points against mine I will admit, Sorry if I seemed harsh on you earlier btw I didn't mean to get frustrated.

[Lord Raven]

So you're basically saying nobles can't be humble? This is not him being humble, especially not the way it was actually written into the story.

Note that I do not necessarily think this makes him a Stu at all, I just think it's more likely to be a Stu trait than an argument against him being one.

Humble may have been the wrong word, but I thought the reason he didn't want to live the life of a noble was because he really didn't want the attention or the complicated politics or anything to that extent. I don't think it was written as if he was "too good" for it, just more "not his style."

[Jimmy_Smith]

Jimmy, you do bring up some good points against mine I will admit, Sorry if I seemed harsh on you earlier btw I didn't mean to get frustrated.

no no it's me who should apologize.

It's a misunderstanding (I make a typo)

when I call counter-argument is weak on that side ,I really mean "that site"(the web site on the link, about counter argument the sue test) not the other side of Ike debate.

really sorry man, english is not my first language.

[Jedi]

no no it's me who should apologize.

It's a misunderstanding (I make a typo)

when I call counter-argument is weak on that side ,I really mean "that site"(the web site on the link, about counter argument the sue test) not the other side of Ike debate.

really sorry man, english is not my first language.

Oh thats ok! I was the one who misunderstood you! Don't worry about it, I could hardly tell you seem to at least write english pretty well so yea.

We can agree to disagree on Ike? xD I can see some sueish traits now but I don't think he is a full blown one

[Ciarre]

no no it's me who should apologize.

It's a misunderstanding (I make a typo)

when I call counter-argument is weak on that side ,I really mean "that site"(the web site on the link, about counter argument the sue test) not the other side of Ike debate.

really sorry man, english is not my first language.

What makes the Sue test itself any better? ;/

Edited August 10, 2012 by CR-S01

[General Banzai]

Again I'm gonna point to Leaf as an example of a non-Sue FE Lord, since everyone seems soooo convinced that "every FE Lord is a Sue".

Also, I'm goddam sick of that term.

[Jedi]

Again I'm gonna point to Leaf as an example of a non-Sue FE Lord, since everyone seems soooo convinced that "every FE Lord is a Sue".

Also, I'm goddam sick of that term.

Agreed on both points Banzai >.>

[-Cynthia-]

Some people may be sick of the "OMG Micaiah is the biggest Mary Sue of all time!" deal while Ike isn't mentioned at all- with IMO much of the flaw being looking at traits rather than plot impact.

Not sure if I consider any FE lords not Sues... I think the FE7 trio does a little better than most here because they split the "responsibility" between them. For the record I consider Ephraim the worst case (though I haven't played 1-5 or 13).

[BBM]

When you say Ephraim is the worst case, do you mean that Ephraim is the most Stu-ish, or the least? I consider him one of the least.

[-Cynthia-]

When you say Ephraim is the worst case, do you mean that Ephraim is the most Stu-ish, or the least? I consider him one of the least.

The most. The main villain's motivation is to become more like him- I don't think it gets much worse than that lol.

[BBM]

IMO, Ephraim is very Stu-like on the surface. Everyone refers to him as great at everything, and the Lyon bit. But he's also the only one who DOESN'T have the love of his people (in the main story anyways), and this is one of my favourite lines of FE8:

Seth:

...They’re not cheering for you. They cheer because Orson’s misrule is at an end. They cheer the possibility of a better tomorrow, not the deeds we did today. But how will the hearts of the people move tomorrow and the next day? That is for you to decide.

[Sunwoo]

Er, I don't know if we're still talking about the Mary Sue test, but I just want to say one last thing on it: those tests are bogus. It's not so much the "traits" themselves that matter but the way those traits are written and portrayed. I believe the Mary Sue test I once ran my characters through had a disclaimer that "not all characters with high scores are Sues" and that the real-life singer of U2 scored a 72 or something on the test. So a high score does not mean everything, but how those traits are written.

[Kon]

The most. The main villain's motivation is to become more like him- I don't think it gets much worse than that lol.

Wut? Lyon wanted to become more like Ephraim before he even went evil because the kid's always had self confidence issues. That's hardly an argument for Ephy's Stu-ness. Personally, I think Ephraim is one of the least "perfect" of the lords story-wise. He's brash, stupid, irresponsible, extremely reckless and is scolded repeatedly even by his own subordinates for his actions.

[General Banzai]

Yeah, Ephraim's also not very Sue-like. His own man questions his sanity (Forde) and there's the aforementioned "They aren't cheering for you" line. In fact, Seth is pretty much an ass towards Ephraim all throughout the game, especially in Ephraim's route. Not to mention Ephraim follows one of the most clearly-defined character arcs in the series (most clearly-defined in a series of main characters who don't develop at all). He starts out as a romantic cavalier who desires to be a great fighter more than a great leader, and his disappearance in Grado at the beginning of the game is indicated from the very start to have been completely irresponsible (Fado: Ephraim's missing and we can expect no help from his men. Better surrender.) By the end of the game, however, he has realized the responsibility that he has to live up to and ultimately does become the King of Renais, rather than dropping it all on Eirika and becoming a mercenary. While certain characters like Duessel praise him, other characters like Father MacGregor (admittedly offscreen, but it's something) scold him as a lout and an imbecile, and of course we all know Innes's feelings towards Ephraim.

Also, about Lyon. I'm gonna pull out one of my favorite conversations in the game (this is from the flashback in the interlude between Ch 8 and 9):

Lyon:

Well, how about you, Ephraim?

Ephraim:

Me? Let's see... I guess I'll pray to become a stronger fighter.

Lyon:

That's just like you, Ephraim.

Eirika:

Just like you indeed, Brother.

Ephraim:

... I can never tell if you're complimenting me or mocking me.

Lyon:

Praising you, of course! Right, Eirika?

Eirika:

Hee hee... Yes, that's right.

Ephraim:

And you, Lyon? What will you pray for?

Lyon:

What? Me? Hm... I suppose all I really want is for all our people to be happy.

Ephraim:

...That's very, uh... That's very much like you.

Eirika:

Very much so, Lyon.

Lyon:

...Now, I'm the one who cannot tell if he's being praised or...

Ephraim:

You're being praised, as always, Lyon.

[Jimmy_Smith]

Oh thats ok! I was the one who misunderstood you! Don't worry about it, I could hardly tell you seem to at least write english pretty well so yea.

We can agree to disagree on Ike? xD I can see some sueish traits now but I don't think he is a full blown one

Yup

And IMO about Ike, maybe he has many sue traits but he also has many de-sue traits, either.

- He has to rely to other a lot just to run a mercenary group.

- He has very normal background compare to a real sue or ever other lord in the series (WTF background is a prime sue traits)

,he is not a descendant of great legendary hero, doesn't have any special ability exclusive to him, has a normal family ,live in a normal life etc.

- Somethings he is good at(fighting), he has to earn it hard way, through countless battle and countless days of training, not just a normal farmboy to battlemaster in 2 weeks.

and many many etc.

Edited August 3, 2012 by Jimmy_Smith

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Tell that to Ike in Chapter 8 of path or radiance when he nearly got his whole company killed or when Shinon and Gatrie left, or when he nearly got Rolf and Mist killed in chapter 2 due to his and Boyd's recklessness

He failed to defeat the Black Knight twice, he was on the run from Daein for almost a year. Perfect? Ha

i suppose you could say the same stuff for micaiah.

nearly got her army ruined by Ike/failed to defeat Ike twice, having to play hit and run tactics on Begion...

and to the poster above me who i didn't see until after i posted this comment.

>he is not a descendant of great legendary hero, doesn't have any special ability exclusive to him, has a normal family ,live in a normal life etc.

so Greil wasn't anyone importent like the Amazingly powerful Swordmaster Gawain?

Edited August 3, 2012 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[-Cynthia-]

Yup

And IMO about Ike, maybe he has many sue traits but he also has many de-sue traits, either.

- He has to rely to other a lot just to run a mercenary group.

- He has very normal background compare to a real sue or ever other lord in the series (WTF background is a prime sue traits)

,he is not a descendant of great legendary hero, doesn't have any special ability exclusive to him, has a normal family ,live in a normal life etc.

- Somethings he is good at(fighting), he has to earn it hard way, through countless battle and countless days of training, not just a normal farmboy to battlemaster in 2 weeks.

and many many etc.

Really every FE Lord heavily relies on others (they all do run an army of some sort after all), so maybe none of them are Sues? :p

(Note: not really getting into the Ephraim stuff here, I feel it's somewhat off topic as it's an entirely different game)

[bottlegnomes]

Just playing devil's advocate/answering questions here.

- He has very normal background compare to a real sue or ever other lord in the series (WTF background is a prime sue traits)

Basically one that doesn't make sense for the character's line of work or the path that he/she follows in the story. This doesn't mean you can't do it, many have, and quite well, but generally Sue's have this trait.

,he is not a descendant of great legendary hero, doesn't have any special ability exclusive to him, has a normal family ,live in a normal life etc.

Greil is essentially a legendary hero, and even has the hidden past thingy. Ike has aether all to himself, is the best swordsman in the world, and is the only one who can use Ragnell. His mother was killed by his father, who's the greatest swordsman in the world and has a former pupil obsessed with beating him, and his sister and mother are two of the few beorc not over by madness upon touching the medallion.

- Somethings he is good at(fighting), he has to earn it hard way, through countless battle and countless days of training, not just a normal farmboy to battlemaster in 2 weeks.

He still surpasses his teacher despite his teacher dying before he'd finished teaching Ike.

All that said, who really gives a fuck if a character has every trait that "defines a sue?" They could still be a perfectly fine character if done well. Odysseus, for example, scored a 36 when I did it, and I doubt anyone would call him a Sue as his flaws come back to bite him pretty hard in the ass.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Bottle gnomes said what I wanted to say alot better then I ever could've.

While sure you can share alot of sue traits and still be an excellent character, others can be sueish and still come off pretty likeable if given proper writing, two that come to my mind are Goku from DBZ and Judou from ZZ gundam.(granted these may not be the best possible examples and I am aware of that.)

[Anouleth]

In all seriousness, I do think most FE lords are about as Sue as each other, but it never really bothers me. FE isn't exactly high literature, and video games as a whole often intend for the players to insert themselves as the main character, so it's no surprise that most FE lords have Sue traits.

I don't think they are Sues: or even close. The Mary Sue "disease" is a writer having a favourite darling in the class and throwing them a ton of cool powers and abilities, always making them the hero and saving the day. I don't get that impression from either Ike or Micaiah. What bothers me is when people write "oh Ike can't be a sue because of XYZ" when Micaiah also has XYZ and gets called a Sue every five minutes.