Regarding Ike

[ClLoulD]

I don't think either Ike or Micaiah are stu's they both make reckless and rash decisions I mean when in "Solo" Micaiaih walks out into the woods alone which was stupid and is ambushed by Jared I mean C'mon that's not the smartest thing to do when you have an entire liberation army that believe in you and only you, if the Black Knight didn't show up when he did then she would have been killed straight away.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Bottle gnomes said what I wanted to say alot better then I ever could've.

While sure you can share alot of sue traits and still be an excellent character, others can be sueish and still come off pretty likeable if given proper writing, two that come to my mind are Goku from DBZ and Judou from ZZ gundam.(granted these may not be the best possible examples and I am aware of that.)

Actually yes. There are Canon Sues that are really likable. Mostly because they tend to not be all in-yer-face. (Like Citan from Xenogears for example)

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Actually yes. There are Canon Sues that are really likable. Mostly because they tend to not be all in-yer-face. (Like Citan from Xenogears for example)

I have to agree here, Citan was a much more likeable sue then someone like Shion from Xenosaga. Then again i couldn't tell if Shion was a sue or just a terribly written character.

Can anyone tell me how mutipost is suppost to work now? Cause i want to reply to Anouleth as well.

> What bothers me is when people write "oh Ike can't be a sue because of XYZ" when Micaiah also has XYZ and gets called a Sue every five minutes.

Anyways Anouleth i understand what you mean by this and notice this far more often then it should be appearing. Either Both Ike and Micaiah are sues or they aren't.

EDIT: and now that i think about it, this doublestandard thing with Ike/Micaiah is the same one as Joshua/Makalov in my qoute, which is also by Anouleth

Edited August 3, 2012 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Loki Laufeyson]

I never thought of Shion as a Sue. Just a terribly written character. Most of Xenosaga was badly written.

I might actually just pass Micaiah off as a horribly written character with Sue tendencies. (her plot wrap up stuff was just too...wtf.)

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

I never thought of Shion as a Sue. Just a terribly written character. Most of Xenosaga was badly written.

I might actually just pass Micaiah off as a horribly written character with Sue tendencies. (her plot wrap up stuff was just too...wtf.)

now that is something that makes sense and is reasonable, i can understand what you mean by this statement more then someone just saying 'she's a mary sue but ike isn't".

Speaking of, i've never heard of a non mary sue out doing a mary sue in any given series.

[bottlegnomes]

Can anyone tell me how mutipost is suppost to work now? Cause i want to reply to Anouleth as well.

Just click multiquote on each post and then click add reply like you would when not "reply"ing to anyone. The quotes will automatically show up in your text box. It also works between topics.

EDIT: and now that i think about it, this doublestandard thing with Ike/Micaiah is the same one as Joshua/Makalov in my qoute, which is also by Anouleth

And this is why I support Makalov being the shit and Josh being massively overrated. If Josh had a pink fro everyone would hate him, and if Mak looked like Renning everyone would love him.

Edited August 4, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Loki Laufeyson]

But Makalov looks like Pauly Shore! Whats not to love?!

[Rehab]

Makalov also half-looks and talks like he's either stoned or ADHD :p Joshua at least seems vaguely self-aware. Makalov owns as he is, though, ofc

Edited August 5, 2012 by Rehab

[HeroMystic]

To be honest, this whole thing sounds really misogynistic. Ike does a bunch of awesome shit (and, as Cynthia pointed out, pretty much easily and without fault) and is a badass who deserves the praise he gets. But when Micaiah does similar things (the similarity of part 1 RD to PoR is even referenced in RD) and even makes mistakes along the way, she's a Mary Sue. If Micaiah were male, had her dialogue edited such that it sounded more "badass," and perhaps even used a physical weapon, but otherwise has the same effect on the plot...would people have any problem with this character?

I would appreciate it if you wouldn't imply I have a natural dislike of women. My favorite characters in Fire Emblem (such as Marcia) and other franchises happen to be women, and I find female characters such as Samus far more interesting than your generic male hero.

I said Micaiah has more mary sue qualities than Ike does, not that she -is- one, and Ike being a badass has nothing to do with my defense of him. I just believe he's wrongly mislabeled as a Stu in Radiant Dawn because all of his fame is, in actuality, well-deserved due to his achievements in Path of Radiance.

Micaiah is only referenced in Path of Radiance by Sothe and has no past history to the audience otherwise. Yet, she starts out rather (in)famous in the game. What Micaiah did was similiar to Ike yes, but it was all condensed in ten chapters and lacked substance. Ike's "Hero's Journey" lasted for 30 chapters long, and we see him grow along the way. Micaiah had extremely poor growth throughout the game and roughly stayed the same outside of a few tidbits such as gaining respect for Ike. Micaiah is a character who had a pretty good basis to start off of but failed to grow. The people who like her simply like her for who she is, and she is disliked by people who dislikes her lack of growth, or just plainly dislikes the story of RD in general.

EDIT: Also, easily winning battles does not mean you're a Mary Sue. If that was the case, then damn near every hero in any game would be labeled as a Mary Sue.

Edited August 7, 2012 by HeroMystic

[Rapier]

Micaiah is only referenced in Path of Radiance by Sothe and has no past history to the audience otherwise. Yet, she starts out rather (in)famous in the game. What Micaiah did was similiar to Ike yes, but it was all condensed in ten chapters and lacked substance. Ike's "Hero's Journey" lasted for 30 chapters long, and we see him grow along the way. Micaiah had extremely poor growth throughout the game and roughly stayed the same outside of a few tidbits such as gaining respect for Ike. Micaiah is a character who had a pretty good basis to start off of but failed to grow. The people who like her simply like her for who she is, and she is disliked by people who dislikes her lack of growth, or just plainly dislikes the story of RD in general.

That is exactly what I think about her: Ike had a lot of time to develop his fame, but Micaiah didn't. Her story was too rushed up in order to give space for the other Parts. Imo, Part 2 could have been mixed with Part 3, and Part 1 could've had more chapters focusing on developing each member of the Dawn's Brigade personality and story.

One of the main reasons for me to believe in that is the narrative itself. It says that Pelleas' army liberated a lot of important tactical points of Daein and got larger and stronger from those victories, when we only get to participate in two of them gameplay-wise (I think).

I love Micaiah as a character, but her portraying on the game is bad.

[tenkiforecast]

A lot of the issue just comes down to what FE10 tried to do, and what it failed to do.

Ike, I have never thought of as a "sue-type" character because he has character development and an arc. I'm going to reference the manga Vinland Saga to help explain my thoughts with Ike. The main character of Vinland Saga, Thorfinn, is the son of one of the strongest warriors to come from Denmark. Said warrior, Thors, lost his love of war to become a better human being and left the Vikings. Thors was later found, dragged back into war, and killed when Thorfinn was held at knife-point. Thorfinn, in most mangas, would be this character that can do no wrong. Except Thorfinn is an astoundingly flawed character early on, fighting and killing out of a complete lust for vengeance and only starts to grow as a human being when the outlet of that hatred is taken away. Ike is sort of similar--famous father who left the country he fought for, father dies, consumed with hate and vengeance. Ike develops though, throughout the game he has to grow and learn to temper his emotions. FE9 was Ike's story, with all the political aspects as the background. And one thing, for me, that qualifies a character as a mary sue or gary stu is the complete lack of a character arc. Ike has a character arc, one that is well-written. Honestly, he's one of my favorite main characters in the series for this reason.

I'm also pretty sure that Ike can't touch the Fire Emblem either. Mist is the only human alive during the game that can touch it directly and not go insane, I believe.

FE10 is...I do not know who's story it is. Micaiah's? Ike's? I'm not sure. It just feels rushed. FE10's story feels extremely ambitious, and then the writing staff ran out of time. This is what I attribute to the utter lack of character development in FE10. Ike has none because he had FE9 and they were working on other things. So he is brought back with slight differences from FE9 and has taken tons of steroids. Which also happened to make him like men, which is fine except it comes right out of nowhere. Miccy on the other hand just does not get development. She is essentially the same character at the start of the game at the end of the game. Same sort of "I will not abandon ANYONE" mentality. Which is fine, except no other part of her personality seems to change. I've played through FE10 a number of times, looked at the story, and I never see her character changing. It also hurts a lot that in part 4, they make Miccy vanish so Yune can be an exposition machine. Great planning for your character, make the one we've been following for 1/3 of the game not have any dialogue.

Had Part 1 been teh focus of the story, I think it would have worked better. Had Part 2 been one of the major focal points, it would have been great. Infighting causing a civil war with Elincia unsure of what to do against her own citizens would make a very interesting story. As is, it is an interesting part that is rushed to bring back FE9's cast. Part 3 and 4 are the ones that are rushed. It makes Part 1 just something to force the events of Part 3, relegating it to a side-story when this was advertised as the main story. The Ike shows back up and it focuses on him and Miccy stops doing anything. It feels like the writers just ran out of time. Micaiah didn't need to be sort of bland, but they ran out of time.

[FionordeQuester]

Which also happened to make him like men, which is fine except it comes right out of nowhere.

You know, if Ike truly is actually gay, I'm fine with nothing hinting at it in the previous game. It's not the sort of thing that really needs to be brought to the forefront after all. Besides that though, I thought the very fact that the previous game doesn't outright say that he has feelings for anyone might've been kind of a hint in hindsight. I mean sure, you can INFER that he might've had feelings for, say, Lethe (she definitely seemed to have feelings for him in their A Support), but usually the game is more explicit in saying "these two are in love" in their support conversations.

Edited August 8, 2012 by FionordeQuester

[tenkiforecast]

You know, if Ike truly is actually gay, I'm fine with nothing hinting at it in the previous game. It's not the sort of thing that really needs to be brought to the forefront after all. Besides that though, I thought the very fact that Ike doesn't seem to have romantic feelings for anyone in the last game is kind of a possible hint in hindsight.

I just think having some sort of foreshadowing would have been great. As is, it's not something that I think is a huge issue, I just think it comes out of nowhere.

[FionordeQuester]

Technically, Ike could also just be asexual. As in, he doesn't have sexual feelings period. That's possible too.

[Integrity]

I just think having some sort of foreshadowing would have been great. As is, it's not something that I think is a huge issue, I just think it comes out of nowhere.

...it doesn't "come out of nowhere" because it doesn't exist. It's pure fanwank theory.

[bottlegnomes]

Especially considering he now has a cannon descendent in Paris.

[Anouleth]

A lot of the issue just comes down to what FE10 tried to do, and what it failed to do.

Ike, I have never thought of as a "sue-type" character because he has character development and an arc. I'm going to reference the manga Vinland Saga to help explain my thoughts with Ike. The main character of Vinland Saga, Thorfinn, is the son of one of the strongest warriors to come from Denmark. Said warrior, Thors, lost his love of war to become a better human being and left the Vikings. Thors was later found, dragged back into war, and killed when Thorfinn was held at knife-point. Thorfinn, in most mangas, would be this character that can do no wrong. Except Thorfinn is an astoundingly flawed character early on, fighting and killing out of a complete lust for vengeance and only starts to grow as a human being when the outlet of that hatred is taken away. Ike is sort of similar--famous father who left the country he fought for, father dies, consumed with hate and vengeance.

That's... not really true, though. Ike wants vengeance for his father, but that doesn't make him consumed by hate or vengeance.

Ike develops though, throughout the game he has to grow and learn to temper his emotions. FE9 was Ike's story, with all the political aspects as the background. And one thing, for me, that qualifies a character as a mary sue or gary stu is the complete lack of a character arc. Ike has a character arc, one that is well-written. Honestly, he's one of my favorite main characters in the series for this reason.

I'm still not sure what this character development is supposed to be. How, precisely, does Ike change in any way aside from becoming more experienced and more confident: something that happens to every FE main character, including Micaiah? I really want to know.

[FionordeQuester]

Well, he learns to control his emotions better and not to judge an entire nation simply because it's leaders are corrupt.

[bottlegnomes]

He also learns that his desire for revenge was largely pointless, as show after his fight with the BK where he realizes he's not any happier. Then that largely goes right out the window in FE10

[Anouleth]

Well, he learns to control his emotions better and

Please quote a specific example, if you would.

not to judge an entire nation simply because it's leaders are corrupt.

I don't remember Ike ever doing this.

He also learns that his desire for revenge was largely pointless, as show after his fight with the BK where he realizes he's not any happier.

Where does he say that? Ike seems a bit troubled by the answered questions: after all, the BK's identity and motives remain an enigma, but I don't get the impression he's unsatisfied with his victory. In fact, we get signs that suggest he is satisfied:

"Ike has avenged his father by defeating the Black Knight in single combat. That night, he sleeps until well past dawn. It is the first time since Greil's death that he has done so."

"Ike

Even now, though, I'm not as good as Father was. There's no way I could ever defeat him...Defeating the Black Knight was my way...I wanted to show him how strong Father really was."

[HeroMystic]

I'm still not sure what this character development is supposed to be. How, precisely, does Ike change in any way aside from becoming more experienced and more confident: something that happens to every FE main character, including Micaiah? I really want to know.

You're confusing growth with change. Ike has always stayed true to himself in PoR, but that doesn't mean he hasn't grown. Throughout his 30 chapters his personality has been tested by multiple people, particularly the nobles of Begnion. He has learned through his experiences, which has made him stronger in his beliefs.

A good example of "change" is actually Part II with Elincia. Her beliefs were severely tested and her kingdom was falling apart from within. She almost lost her milk sister, and was constantly made as a mockery as a Queen. At the end of it, she executed the entire rebel army with the Royal Knights, and swore she would never let Lucia and Geoferry fall into such dangers ever again. She will no longer allow herself to be walked over by nobles or anyone, and we see exactly how strong she became during Part III.

Micaiah doesn't have any. Or at least, none of it is obvious without studying the character in-depth. There's only one part where She has shown actual growth, and that's in Part III in a talk conversation with Nico where she states she doesn't care if she goes down in history as a monster, because she wants to fight for the people of Daein. That's the only time I felt a strong sense of her beliefs without in-depth study of her character.

Part 4 is actually the worst thing that happened to her because all of it goes out the window in favor of being a vessel and fighting a Goddess, and she essentially gets a free pass for her actions. When I say this, I'm not saying people should hate her for it, I'm saying it shouldn't have been dropped completely.

I'd also like to add that the Begnion Senators have to be the most unrealistic FE villains ever. Its like watching the Legion of Doom with Lekain as Lex Luthor.

[FionordeQuester]

I don't remember Ike ever doing this.

From Chapter 12 after the Ravens are defeated...

Elincia

My lord Ike, is something amiss?

Ike

First, those ravens attack us, and then a band of Goldoan dragons rescues us.

I can't understand how they are all considered laguz. Is that strange?

Elincia

No, I see what you're saying...Just as there are both good and evil beorc, there must be good and evil laguz as well. But they are so distinct in appearance...It is tempting to assume each race is, as a whole, intrinsically good or evil.

Ike

Aye, that it is. The beast tribes of Gallia and the dragons of Goldoa seem sohonorable...and the birds of Kilvas and Phoenicis seem so cruel. It seems so easy to reduce them all to good or evil.

Elincia

I'm sure it can't be as simple as that...

Ike

Look at us beorc: Daeins are evil, and Crimeans are not. It's as simple as that.Well, wait...There were those prejudiced fools we met in port. They weren't all that honorable. Maybe you're right.

Nasir

Much of what seems good and evil is simply a matter of perspective, Ike. Many conditions affect our judgment. Drawing a definitive line is nigh impossible.

Please quote a specific example, if you would.

From Chapter 24 after the castle falls to Crimea...

Ike

Why appear now? Do you mean to tell me you purposely waited until the battle was over?

Black Knight

Hmph. I know how your mind works. I assumed you would attack the moment you saw me. But perhaps you've learned to judge the importance of time and place.

The first one is pretty obvious I think, but now that I look at the second one again, I guess the Black Knight probably wouldn't be the most reliable source of how much Ike has grown, given that he probably doesn't know him well enough. Although, Ike's reaction here is definitely different than it was in Chapter 7, when he tried to attack the Black Knight even after witnessing him kill Greil.

Edited August 8, 2012 by FionordeQuester

[Anouleth]

From Chapter 12 after the Ravens are defeated...

Elincia

My lord Ike, is something amiss?

Ike

First, those ravens attack us, and then a band of Goldoan dragons rescues us.

I can't understand how they are all considered laguz. Is that strange?

Elincia

No, I see what you're saying...Just as there are both good and evil beorc, there must be good and evil laguz as well. But they are so distinct in appearance...It is tempting to assume each race is, as a whole, intrinsically good or evil.

Ike

Aye, that it is. The beast tribes of Gallia and the dragons of Goldoa seem sohonorable...and the birds of Kilvas and Phoenicis seem so cruel. It seems so easy to reduce them all to good or evil.

Elincia

I'm sure it can't be as simple as that...

Ike

Look at us beorc: Daeins are evil, and Crimeans are not. It's as simple as that.Well, wait...There were those prejudiced fools we met in port. They weren't all that honorable. Maybe you're right.

Nasir

Much of what seems good and evil is simply a matter of perspective, Ike. Many conditions affect our judgment. Drawing a definitive line is nigh impossible.

That's not "character development". That's Ike learning about the outside world. I mean, how many people from these other countries has he really even met? And Ike seems a bit wary about jumping to a snap judgment...

He's also not really judging these countries on the basis of their leaders. He's never met Ashnard, or Naesala, or Tibarn. Rather, he's judging those countries on the basis of their actions. Kilvas attacks ships that are minding their own business. Daein launched an invasion of Crimea with no provocation.

From Chapter 24 after the castle falls to Crimea...

Ike

Why appear now? Do you mean to tell me you purposely waited until the battle was over?

Black Knight

Hmph. I know how your mind works. I assumed you would attack the moment you saw me. But perhaps you've learned to judge the importance of time and place.

The first one is pretty obvious I think, but now that I look at the second one again, I guess the Black Knight probably wouldn't be the most reliable source of how much Ike has grown, given that he probably doesn't know him well enough. Although, Ike's reaction here is definitely different than it was in Chapter 7, when he tried to attack the Black Knight even after witnessing him kill Greil.

The situations are very different. Obviously, having just seen Greil killed before his eyes, Ike would be more inclined to attack the Black Knight, than a year later in Crimea. That would be true of any person.

The Black Knight in general is extremely condescending towards Ike, in all of their conversations. He obviously has a very low opinion of Ike.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Anouleth

[Loki Laufeyson]

Which also happened to make him like men, which is fine except it comes right out of nowhere

Except that it doesnt. Because its never indicated anywhere that Ike likes men in that way. Its just how the fandom interpreted him because he doesnt run off with ladies at the end.

Had Part 2 been one of the major focal points, it would have been great. Infighting causing a civil war with Elincia unsure of what to do against her own citizens would make a very interesting story. As is, it is an interesting part that is rushed to bring back FE9's cast

I dont really agree. While Part 2 seemed like a Big Lipped Alligator Moment, i think it was one of the best written parts of the game. It's showing growth and character development for Elincia in a really cool way. Geoffrey even benefits from some development here too. (like how he learns that its time to let Elincia off a leash and decide junk for herself instead of coddling and protecting her from everything ever. In 3-10, Ike tells Geoffrey it was pretty ballsy of him to allow Elincia to go onto the battlefield and drop her weapon in the name of peace. Geoff goes something like "It wasnt easy, but shes gotta do what shes gotta do" in so many words.) While part 2 is more or less a vehicle to bring back that side of the cast of FE9, its a really well written one. It also shows that Nephenee of all people (i mean, really!), is much more vocal than she was in the previous game and even has opinions of her own. Calill also shows some change from the previous game. Shes not exactly as full of herself since having a family and stuff and shows a great deal of pride for simply being Crimean. Haar shows that he's still loyal to his old friends and has great respect for Elincia and co. Leanne shows that shes rather brave herself. Willing to cross distances and dangers to help her family and fellow laguz.

But the cherry on the top of this pretty nice character development sundae is missing. If Marcia, Kieran, Astrid, and Makalov had gotten some character development, part 2 would have been really perfect. Despite it having little to do with the overall plot.

[HeroMystic]

I dont really agree. While Part 2 seemed like a Big Lipped Alligator Moment, i think it was one of the best written parts of the game. It's showing growth and character development for Elincia in a really cool way. Geoffrey even benefits from some development here too. (like how he learns that its time to let Elincia off a leash and decide junk for herself instead of coddling and protecting her from everything ever. In 3-10, Ike tells Geoffrey it was pretty ballsy of him to allow Elincia to go onto the battlefield and drop her weapon in the name of peace. Geoff goes something like "It wasnt easy, but shes gotta do what shes gotta do" in so many words.) While part 2 is more or less a vehicle to bring back that side of the cast of FE9, its a really well written one. It also shows that Nephenee of all people (i mean, really!), is much more vocal than she was in the previous game and even has opinions of her own. Calill also shows some change from the previous game. Shes not exactly as full of herself since having a family and stuff and shows a great deal of pride for simply being Crimean. Haar shows that he's still loyal to his old friends and has great respect for Elincia and co. Leanne shows that shes rather brave herself. Willing to cross distances and dangers to help her family and fellow laguz.

But the cherry on the top of this pretty nice character development sundae is missing. If Marcia, Kieran, Astrid, and Makalov had gotten some character development, part 2 would have been really perfect. Despite it having little to do with the overall plot.

I'm in complete agreement here. While Part 2 had very little to do with the actual story, I'm inclined to say it was the best part of the game in terms of narrative. Short as it was, it was very well constructed and had a good pace. If the whole game followed a structure like this, it would've been perfect.