Regarding Ike

[bottlegnomes]

For the BK convo, I'll take your word for it.

That's not "character development". That's Ike learning about the outside world. I mean, how many people from these other countries has he really even met? And Ike seems a bit wary about jumping to a snap judgment...

He's also not really judging these countries on the basis of their leaders. He's never met Ashnard, or Naesala, or Tibarn. Rather, he's judging those countries on the basis of their actions. Kilvas attacks ships that are minding their own business. Daein launched an invasion of Crimea with no provocation.

All of that is character development. Character development is a shift in the character in some way, whether that be becoming more worldy, less close minded, or whatever.

[aku chi]

Aside from the ret-conned Serenes Massacre backstory, I found the Laguz invasion of (and retreat from) Begnion fairly well-written. Skrimir has an actual character arc. The plot is simple, but cohesive. The protagonists have to retreat, which is refreshing. The dynamic between Soren and Skrimir is interesting. Likewise with Ranulf and Ike. Granted, Valtome is an over-the-top implausible antagonist, but I didn't find Ludveck to be a plausible antagonist either.

[FionordeQuester]

Honestly, I actually really liked this games plot...up until Part 4. Then seems started to get a little weird, like Dheginsea completely lying about the history of beorc and laguz...for some reason, as well as Sephiran not knowing that Micaiah was alive despite the Black Knight knowing about this since the beginning of the game. And apparently, Naesala somehow got suckered into a blood pact, despite being the last sort of guy you'd ever suspect being that guillable.

It almost seemed like that part never went through any revisions from the initial draft really.

[Anouleth]

For the BK convo, I'll take your word for it.

All of that is character development. Character development is a shift in the character in some way, whether that be becoming more worldy, less close minded, or whatever.

Except it was claimed that Ike "learned not to judge countries by the actions of their leaders". Clearly, you probably meant to say "learned not to judge countries by the actions of their people", but I don't get that impression either. At what point does Ike deliberately go out of his way to suggest that Daein isn't a racist country just because it's people are racist, for instance?

[bottlegnomes]

Except it was claimed that Ike "learned not to judge countries by the actions of their leaders". Clearly, you probably meant to say "learned not to judge countries by the actions of their people", but I don't get that impression either. At what point does Ike deliberately go out of his way to suggest that Daein isn't a racist country just because it's people are racist, for instance?

I never said that <_< that was FionordeQuest

He goes from thinking all of Daein and its residents are evil to realizing there are good people in Daein, like Jill, Shiharam, and Haar, just like in Crimea. How is that not a shift?

A better way of stating it would be Ike learned not to judge people just by the group they're part of (in this case, mostly country).

Edited August 8, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[-Cynthia-]

Honestly, I actually really liked this games plot...up until Part 4. Then seems started to get a little weird, like Dheginsea completely lying about the history of beorc and laguz...for some reason, as well as Sephiran not knowing that Micaiah was alive despite the Black Knight knowing about this since the beginning of the game. And apparently, Naesala somehow got suckered into a blood pact, despite being the last sort of guy you'd ever suspect being that guillable.

It almost seemed like that part never went through any revisions from the initial draft really.

1. Degh wants the dragon laguz to be in seclusion or he thinks they might destroy Tellius. Revealing the true history behind beorc and laguz would go against being in seclusion.

2. I think when Sephiran says he didn't know Micaiah was alive he meant "until recently"...since the Black Knight is in Daein (and the desert) to help Micaiah.

3. It was the former leader of Kilvas that signed a blood pact with Begnion, Naesala just inherited it.

Part 4 is a bit sloppy though IMO.

Edited August 9, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[FionordeQuester]

Except it was claimed that Ike "learned not to judge countries by the actions of their leaders". Clearly, you probably meant to say "learned not to judge countries by the actions of their people", but I don't get that impression either. At what point does Ike deliberately go out of his way to suggest that Daein isn't a racist country just because it's people are racist, for instance?

Well, more specifically, what I meant was something like "don't judge a country based on the actions of it's military", or "just based off of the few Daeins you've met". Something like that. You're right about me not phrasing it correctly. Anyways, it's clear that Ike hasn't considered the idea of things not being as black and white as he thought before his conversation with Ranulf, so that's still character development.

[HeroMystic]

Honestly, I actually really liked this games plot...up until Part 4. Then seems started to get a little weird, like Dheginsea completely lying about the history of beorc and laguz...for some reason, as well as Sephiran not knowing that Micaiah was alive despite the Black Knight knowing about this since the beginning of the game. And apparently, Naesala somehow got suckered into a blood pact, despite being the last sort of guy you'd ever suspect being that guillable.

It almost seemed like that part never went through any revisions from the initial draft really.

Personally, I think the Blood Pact in general gave an "easy out" to Naesala for his behavior, as well as an "easy out" to Pelleas (and Micaiah) to join the war on their side. I personally wanna know how signing a piece of paper gives such huge power to Begnion, and the pact itself seems rather flimsy (as noted by Tauroneo, who wondered if you left Daein, would you still be affected). Overall, I don't like how they went with it, if only because the idea felt really rushed. Then again, it seems the game had a really hard time putting in Dawn Brigade chapters anyway.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

i feel like the game could've been better done if the dawn brigade had more focus then the older characters.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I'm in complete agreement here. While Part 2 had very little to do with the actual story, I'm inclined to say it was the best part of the game in terms of narrative. Short as it was, it was very well constructed and had a good pace. If the whole game followed a structure like this, it would've been perfect.

Arr.

Honestly, I actually really liked this games plot...up until Part 4. Then seems started to get a little weird, like Dheginsea completely lying about the history of beorc and laguz...for some reason, as well as Sephiran not knowing that Micaiah was alive despite the Black Knight knowing about this since the beginning of the game. And apparently, Naesala somehow got suckered into a blood pact, despite being the last sort of guy you'd ever suspect being that guillable.

It almost seemed like that part never went through any revisions from the initial draft really.

3. It was the former leader of Kilvas that signed a blood pact with Begnion, Naesala just inherited it.

That more or less in terms of Naesala. However, the game is too fuzzy on stating if in fact he inherited it. Of course theres Lekain's exposition about the blood pacts and hes basically telling the story of Kilvas in so many words. Tibarn goes "How about that secret about how you became first in line for the throne of Kilvas?" to Naesala. And hes all "oh THAT...lol ill tell ya later." Those are the only clues and yeah its sloppily written. Although Naesala's speech to Lekain if you have them fight, is badass!

Part 4 is a mess. It is a narrative MESS. Some of it is so facepalmingly bad that it...sdfhjsdf i usually just skip through the story there. There was too many things that werent explained in a proper way. It was like the devs went "oh loose ends...lets tie them up in a super rushed way because deadline..."

[FionordeQuester]

1. Degh wants the dragon laguz to be in seclusion or he thinks they might destroy Tellius. Revealing the true history behind beorc and laguz would go against being in seclusion.

Is that really worth the beorc and laguz constantly being at each others throats throughout history though? I mean, the whole deal with the Goddess was that if humanity could make it 1000 years without the world becoming too filled with chaos and war, they wouldn't all die. Or at least that's how I remember it. If I'm correct, how is making two entire races hate each other helping that? How?

Personally, I think the Blood Pact in general gave an "easy out" to Naesala for his behavior, as well as an "easy out" to Pelleas (and Micaiah) to join the war on their side. I personally wanna know how signing a piece of paper gives such huge power to Begnion, and the pact itself seems rather flimsy (as noted by Tauroneo, who wondered if you left Daein, would you still be affected).

I remember thinking that exact same thing when I got to that point in the story, minus the pacts seeming flimsy (I was pretty much sold on them being unbreakable when Micaiah and Co. killed Pelleas, AND STILL couldn't get it to go away). Now that I think about it, it almost seems like the equivalent of "touching base" in a game of tag or hide and seek. It doesn't matter how big, strong, or smart you are, or how little sense it actually makes, once you touch that thing, you are GOLD!

Honestly, it actually kind of makes me want to see the SpoonyOne review this game, if only to get what his reaction to the blood pact is.

Edited August 9, 2012 by FionordeQuester

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Is that really worth the beorc and laguz constantly being at each others throats throughout history though? I mean, the whole deal with the Goddess was that if humanity could make it 1000 years without the world becoming too filled with chaos and war, they wouldn't all die. Or at least that's how I remember it. If I'm correct, how is making two entire races hate each other helping that? How?

I remember thinking that exact same thing when I got to that point in the story, minus the pacts seeming flimsy (I was pretty much sold on them being unbreakable when Micaiah and Co. killed Pelleas, AND STILL couldn't get it to go away). Now that I think about it, it almost seems like the equivalent of "touching base" in a game of tag or hide and seek. It doesn't matter how big, strong, or smart you are, or how little sense it actually makes, once you touch that thing, you are GOLD!

Honestly, it actually kind of makes me want to see the SpoonyOne review this game, if only to get what his reaction to the blood pact is.

you do know spoony is a character by noah antwilder right? who's also the same person who really doesn't hold hate for FF's and liked the ME3 ending.

i don't think you'd get too much of a reaction

[FionordeQuester]

Well yeah...but I think of them as basically one and the same. I mean, he doesn't actually act too much differently whether he's doing a Vlog of a movie he really disliked, or doing an "official" review. The only real difference is the fact that he doesn't ramble quite as much in his Reviews, is not QUITE as much of a pig, and he doesn't usually have the same extreme bouts of screaming in most of his Vlogs as he does in his Reviews. But other than that, there's really not this big separation between him and "Spoony" as there is between say, the Angry Video Game Nerd and James Rolfe, who DOES actually act much differently when he's not playing the Angry Video Game Nerd.

And yes, he actually does hold some amount of enmity for every Final Fantasy after VII, even if it's probably not as extreme as it seems in the reviews. He says as much in one of his Vlogs where he says something along the lines of "people think I'm just out to hate Final Fantasy...and I'm not. I LIKE Final Fantasy, or at least I did up until seven...and then...not so much".

Edited August 9, 2012 by FionordeQuester

[Loki Laufeyson]

you do know spoony is a character by noah antwilder right? who's also the same person who really doesn't hold hate for FF's and liked the ME3 ending.

He genuinely hates anything to do with Final Fantasy 8.

[Anouleth]

Personally, I think the Blood Pact in general gave an "easy out" to Naesala for his behavior, as well as an "easy out" to Pelleas (and Micaiah) to join the war on their side. I personally wanna know how signing a piece of paper gives such huge power to Begnion, and the pact itself seems rather flimsy (as noted by Tauroneo, who wondered if you left Daein, would you still be affected). Overall, I don't like how they went with it, if only because the idea felt really rushed. Then again, it seems the game had a really hard time putting in Dawn Brigade chapters anyway.

Can you think of a better reason for them to join the war on Begnion's side?

[tenkiforecast]

I have to agree, Part 2 was the best part of the game in terms of writing. If the game had been more about that, it would have been phenomenal.

As for Part 4... I'm not going to touch that. It's kind of a mess, and it feels lazy and rushed.

Honestly going to drop the other thing about Ike, I shouldn't have mentioned anything. His character in FE10 is just kind of stagnant.

[HeroMystic]

Can you think of a better reason for them to join the war on Begnion's side?

I don't know if this is genuine, or rhetorical. But I'll go ahead and ask can -you- think of a better reason?

If the Dawn Brigade were more focused upon throughout the game, there would've been plenty of ways to get them to join the war, but the game more or less rushed them out after forgetting about them for 30% of the game.

[CT075]

i can't actually think of a reason for daein to side with begnion during that war

but that would be the only way to force the player vs self thing they had going

[bottlegnomes]

Can you think of a better reason for them to join the war on Begnion's side?

Daein is a nation of people incredibly racist towards laguz to the point where they go on hunts just to kill them, certain exceptions like Miccy, Sothe, and co aside. If Pelleas were to side with the Laguz or even tacitly agree that the laguz were somewhat in the right by not doing anything (not necessarily what he would intend or say, but how the people would see it), the people would stop supporting him and revolts would start. So to keep his kingdom from completely falling apart he would have to sign with the senators. Micaiah gets to be just as torn up about supporting her country or fighting a war she doesn't believe. Everything stays pretty much the same, but without a stupid magical pact. Too keep the senators being laughably evil, Lekain could speak to Pelleas about joining the war on their side and hint at stirring up a rebellion if Pelleas doesn't do anything.

It'd need some minor adjustments, like why they continue so long, if they even do now (could have Daein join sides with Ike and co at the end of 3-13 and have Begnion replace Daein in 3-E), but for the most part, it serves the same function as the blood pact.

Edited August 9, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Vicious Sal]

Daein is a nation of people incredibly racist towards laguz to the point where they go on hunts just to kill them, certain exceptions like Miccy, Sothe, and co aside. If Pelleas were to side with the Laguz or even tacitly agree that the laguz were somewhat in the right by not doing anything (not necessarily what he would intend or say, but how the people would see it), the people would stop supporting him and revolts would start. So to keep his kingdom from completely falling apart he would have to sign with the senators. Micaiah gets to be just as torn up about supporting her country or fighting a war she doesn't believe. Everything stays pretty much the same, but without a stupid magical pact. Too keep the senators being laughably evil, Lekain could speak to Pelleas about joining the war on their side and hint at stirring up a rebellion if Pelleas doesn't do anything.

It'd need some minor adjustments, like why they continue so long, if they even do now (could have Daein join sides with Ike and co at the end of 3-13 and have Begnion replace Daein in 3-E), but for the most part, it serves the same function as the blood pact.

And uprisings would not start when Daein would side with Begnion out of pelleas' own free will? Micaiah can sense thoughts etc somewhat, and would know that Pelleas would join begnion just to be able to gain popularity by letting his nation hunt laguz. If micaiah would sense this, do you think she'd still fight? She only fights in the game because she feels Pelleas is being forced to war against the laguz against his will.

The daein citizens wouldn't even want to side with begnion if the Priestess of Dawn wouldn't support the kings choice. They have been treated like slaves by the Begnion occupational army. Daein only fights together with their former oppressors because of the maiden. No maiden = no army. Jill's base convo in 3-6 is a perfect example. She doesn't believe in the king, it's Micaiah herself who actually still gets the army moving. And as I said before. If Pelleas would war against the laguz just for the sake of hunting them, she wouldn't fight for him. And no maiden = no army.

[HeroMystic]

Daein is a nation of people incredibly racist towards laguz to the point where they go on hunts just to kill them, certain exceptions like Miccy, Sothe, and co aside. If Pelleas were to side with the Laguz or even tacitly agree that the laguz were somewhat in the right by not doing anything (not necessarily what he would intend or say, but how the people would see it), the people would stop supporting him and revolts would start. So to keep his kingdom from completely falling apart he would have to sign with the senators. Micaiah gets to be just as torn up about supporting her country or fighting a war she doesn't believe. Everything stays pretty much the same, but without a stupid magical pact. Too keep the senators being laughably evil, Lekain could speak to Pelleas about joining the war on their side and hint at stirring up a rebellion if Pelleas doesn't do anything.

It'd need some minor adjustments, like why they continue so long, if they even do now (could have Daein join sides with Ike and co at the end of 3-13 and have Begnion replace Daein in 3-E), but for the most part, it serves the same function as the blood pact.

I'll add onto this by saying this can be further emphasized with the fact that Begnion still has a large amount of Feral Ones at their disposal (since Izuka is supplied by them), and they can use them to attack Daein during the war with the Laguz Alliance. Of course, Micaiah and Pelleas knows about the Feral Ones, and Sothe knows it like the back of his hand, but the people don't, and I really doubt the Daein citizens, biased as they already are, would listen to reason outside of that.

Not only does everything roughly stays the same, but both Zihark and Jill both legitimately have their internal stuggles with fighting for Daein (instead of losing all personality until they're talked to), and the Dawn Brigade suddenly has a lot more to talk about. Also, Pelleas doesn't look like a dork for most of Part III, and the senators actually look smart.

[Florete]

I don't know if this is genuine, or rhetorical. But I'll go ahead and ask can -you- think of a better reason?

Since you're the one with the complaint, it's your job to answer that question.

Daein is a nation of people incredibly racist towards laguz to the point where they go on hunts just to kill them, certain exceptions like Miccy, Sothe, and co aside. If Pelleas were to side with the Laguz or even tacitly agree that the laguz were somewhat in the right by not doing anything (not necessarily what he would intend or say, but how the people would see it), the people would stop supporting him and revolts would start. So to keep his kingdom from completely falling apart he would have to sign with the senators. Micaiah gets to be just as torn up about supporting her country or fighting a war she doesn't believe. Everything stays pretty much the same, but without a stupid magical pact. Too keep the senators being laughably evil, Lekain could speak to Pelleas about joining the war on their side and hint at stirring up a rebellion if Pelleas doesn't do anything.

It'd need some minor adjustments, like why they continue so long, if they even do now (could have Daein join sides with Ike and co at the end of 3-13 and have Begnion replace Daein in 3-E), but for the most part, it serves the same function as the blood pact.

Join and fight with the country that had them oppressed for three years and which the entirety of part 1 is spent fighting against for their liberation? I don't think so. Somehow I really don't think the people would revolt over him not choosing a side in the war, and I'm sure some of them know (word spreads) that some Laguz actually helped them in their liberation.

People always say the Blood Pact is a stupid plot hole or something, but no one is ever able to do anything better. I never understood why it was such a big deal; it's fantasy for a reason.

[Vicious Sal]

Besides, even the narrator stated that Daein actually couldn't even afford to mess about with this. Since everything should have been tied up in reconstructing of the country.

Staying neutral was in Daeins best interests.

There is no reason for them joining the alliance. There is no reason for siding with their former oppressors bar the blood contract.

[HeroMystic]

Since you're the one with the complaint, it's your job to answer that question.

No it's not, and it's narrow-minded to think that way. It has absolutely nothing to do with my opinion on the blood pact. Just because you can't think of a proper replacement for it, doesn't mean it doesn't suck. Likewise, just because you think the blood pact fits well with the story, doesn't mean something else couldn't have. I would actually change a good amount of the story anyway (For example; The Serenes Massacre retcon felt pretty forced. I was only okay with it because the senators killed the laguz messengers).

That said, I believe bottlegnome's idea along with the Feral Ones being used is actually a good way to get Daein to side with Begnion, or at the very least, go against the Laguz Alliance. Don't underestimate the prejudice that Daein had for the Laguz. Hell, Crimea is still very prejudice to the laguz. What makes you think Daein would be any better?

[eclipse]

Can you think of a better reason for them to join the war on Begnion's side?

Theorycraft time~!

Begnion attempts to assassinate Micaiah. If it fails, they go up to Pelleas and offer "proof" that it was done by the Laguz Alliance, because once the LA gets a foothold in Begnion, they intend on taking over Daein next, and the faster they can throw Daein into confusion, the better. Either Micaiah dies, or Begnion gets Daein to attack the Laguz Alliance of their own free will.