Genocide and pretty lights

[BrightBow]

As with most people outside of Japan, my first game of this series was FE7.

The game's opening said that dragons and humans lived together in peace until the humans attacked them and wiped them of the face of the continent.

They even called the war the "The Scouring". Now that's a nasty name. They "cleaned" the world from the dragons. It really shows how proud of the genocide they committed were.

Genocide is bad. I hope we can all agree on that. Yet I never had the feeling the game called this crime out for what it was.

Initially it seemed plausible that people would speak of their "heroes" in a favorable manner. History gets written by the winners after all. It was similar in FE9. Yet, here this never seemed to change.

Athos even said: "Well done, brave Successor to Roland." After the final battle. Apparently "our" heroes saving the day makes hem successors to the guys who wiped an entire sentient species from the map. I wouldn't consider that a compliment.

I thought I had missed something. And there were still secret levels and tons of support conversations. It had to be in the script. They couldn't possible just now address this crime at all. Especially since one of the people responsible for it, was actually in the party by the end and was universally treated at a sympathetic character.

How can somebody who committed mass-murder be sympathetic? There had to be a justification. It just had to be somewhere.

I mention this, since I thin it's important to show were I'm coming from. This is something that bothered me about this game since day one. Something that my mind wasted countless hours pondering about.

It seems like the opening is from an entirely different game. It's downright absurd how quite the games are about the whole "humans started the war" thing, how all the glorification of the "Heroes" or the "Divine Generals" goes uncontested.

In FE6, the opening is essentially the same.

Men and Dragons once lived in harmony on this land.

However, that harmony was broken when the men suddenly started to invade. In a great war known later as the Scouring, both sides fought over dominion of the

continent. The laws of nature were twisted from the vast amounts of power that were released...

Yet, the rest of the game stays quiet about who started the mess. Every time the war is brought up, it simply says "mankind fought the dragons". It takes the war for granted.

Like here:

Roy: "Dragons!?"

Hector: "Yes...the Dragons that mankind fought in the Scouring..."

Roy: "The Scouring? I've heard of that... It was a great war that was fought a thousand years ago, where humans and Dragons battled over control of Elibe..."

Hector: "Right...the 'Eight Heroes'...defeated the Dragons and led us humans...to vic...tory..."

Of course, good or bad are already decided by their worship of the "Divine Generals". So they don't really take a neutral stance. If you worship the guys who committed genocide, you probably think the others were the bad guys. And they sometimes call dragons the "enemy of mankind".

And at least once, the dragons are blamed directly. When Niime tells a story to Fa:

Niime: Once upon a time, humans and...demons lived in this land. The demons used their immense power to destroy the humans. The weak humans could do nothing but watch as the bodies piled up... And then one day... Eight bright columns of light were born that would defeat the demons.

Fa: Were they pretty lights?

Niime: Yes. ...The humans used the lights to fight the demons. After a long and devastating battle...the demons were finally defeated.

Blaming the victims for their own death is just unbelievable vile. Yet our protagonists are never confronted with the truth. Our at least, the game never offers an explanation that makes us see the opening in a different light.

It's like the game was designed with an entirely different back-story in mind. One were the dragons really were evil, like in Akaneia. A lot of parts would work a lot better that way.

For example when we come to Arcadia, everyone we meet is friendly. Nothing hints that they are all survivors of the massacre caused by Roy's ancestors. You would be think they would have all kind of sore feelings or traumatic or something, but nope.

Just compare the reaction of the Arcadians to Lethe and Reyson to see how absurd that is. And even ignoring that, they are still concerned about staying hidden from the outside world. So they should show at least some suspicion towards Roy. They don't know him. They have no reason to trust him.

Roy is also also really unimpressed by the place for someone who knows dragons as the "enemy of mankind".

And then they learn that one of the "Eight Heroes", Athos spend the rest of his lifetime there studying. They just throw that out there even though that image is entirely absurd.

It's like Lekain living in the Serenes Forest despite him being the one behind the massaker of the Herons.

And think about how little Ninian and Nils aged during the last thousand years. All most all of the dragons that survived should still be alive. They all lost their loved ones and went through so many hardships, surviving only because they hid in the desert, all because of him.

Honestly, that's all we hear about it:

[spoiler=Spoiler]Roy: "What? Do you mean Athos of the Eight Heroes?"

Sophia: "Yes... After the Scouring...Athos traveled around Elibe... At the end of his journey, he arrived at our village...in which men and Dragons were living in harmony... But he said that...it would only be a matter of time before we were found..."

Roy: "So he led you here..."

Sophia: "Yes... And he hid his Divine Weapon...inside this temple..."

Roy: "Can we use his Divine Weapon?"

Sophia: "Yes... Athos told us...to use his weapon to protect Arcadia... And your fight against Bern...will lead to our safety..."

Roy: "All right. Thanks."

Apparently the game doesn't think that this requires any further explanation or anything. Which kinda confuses me, since judging by FE9, I kinda figured that people's forgiveness for genocide isn't something to be taken for granted.

Then there is Zephidel:

He seeks humanity's end since he thinks that humanity, driven by Jealousy, Hate and Greed, causes nothing but harm.

He mentions those evil emotions but doesn't bring up how they lead to humans killing the dragons. You would think that when the opening mentions this big crime of humanity and the story puts humanity on trial and questions it's right to exist.. that said crime would be used as an argument. It's nasty what his father did, no question... but it just doesn't compare to genocide on a global scale.

And Roy's response to the whole thing is this:

Roy: "I cannot agree that such a world would be for the better good! It is true that humans have many evil emotions and do terrible things, but it has always been us humans who have corrected such wrongdoings!"

If we remember the genocide, then Roy's argument falls apart. Humans always right their wrongs? Now how is the mess humanity did 1000 years ago supposed to be fixed?

Athos spend centuries in Arcadia with doing anything about it, his own father didn't do anything about it despite him probably being married to a dragon and Roy doesn't mention wanting to do anything about it either. And of course, the epilogue doesn't mention him ever doing anything like that.

He can only make this argument out of ignorance.

The same thing happens in the next chapter:

Jahn: "Do you feel pity, like Hartmut did? ...You humans are truly difficult to understand. But let me tell you this. No matter how hard you try, humans and Dragons will never be able to live in harmony. The gap between our species is impossible to fill."

Roy: "That's not true! I know a place where Dragons and humans live together. Dragons and humans both were brought into the same world. They can, and will understand each other!"

Jahn:"Dragons and humans, living together in harmony? Rubbish... I have no intention of listening to such nonsense. Now, enter my domain. Let us see who has more power!"

Jahn... honestly, this chapter really, really disturbs me. The glorification of the "Eight Heores" really goes through the roof here.

The introduction of chapter 24 starts at least promising:

In the temple, Roy was to learn the truth behind the legends that he had always heard. What Roy was about to hear was completely different that what he had always believed to be true...

To keep it short: No it isn't. The only thing that was different from the legends he heard was that the Divine Weapons were the cause of the Ending Winter, instead of the thing straightening it out. Otherwise, the dignity of the "Eight Heroes" is not attacked at all. It's actually the whole opposite. It really pushes the idea that the dragons are evil and the humans were virtues. Not by bringing up facts but like this:

Roy: "So Hartmut didn't want to kill it, so the Sword of Seals reacted to his emotions and only knocked the Dark Dragon unconscious?"

Jahn: "I understand that Hartmut did know a little bit about the Dark Dragon. Then, after seeing it as the little girl, Idoun, he must have felt pity. It is another emotion that we Dragons cannot comprehend."

Roy: "Pity..."

Jahn: "And thus, at the bottom of his heart, he didn't want to kill her. In my opinion, I would never leave something that would be a danger to me alive."

...

Roy: "So Hartmut's feelings changed the sword's strength..."

...

Roy: "I won't give up! I have the sword of Hartmut, who pitied you and did not kill you! Everyone, leave the final blow to me!"

...

Idoun: "...A long time ago... I have a feeling that I heard those same words. Soft words, like a warm breeze... But that was long ago...

...

Jahn: "Do you feel pity, like Hartmut did? ...You humans are truly difficult to understand.

...

Roy: "Hartmut posed a question. And I'll give an answer to it!"

...

See what I mean?

Nothing about this changes the fact that the "Eight Heroes" were a bunch of genocidal bastards. But they spared one single dragon and had pity, so it's all good.

And in contrast, the dragons are pushed to be the villains. At least the Fire Dragons are.

They were the ones who captured a Divine Dragon and destroyed it's soul. Naturally, Roy is all disturbed upon hearing this:

Roy: "That's...terrible."

Fa also seem to think that they are evil:

Fa: "When... When Fa gets big, will Fa become a bad Dragon, too?"

And the dragons lack the compassion who make us humans what we are. So Jahn cannot comprehend why Roy would be so disturbed by it.

Jahn: "Do you feel pity, like Hartmut did? ...You humans are truly difficult to understand."

Of course, like Roy, we as players would be disturbed by this. They did all those things to that poor girl and he is like "So what?" We would of course be angry at him. Hartmund's "pity" contrasts positively from Jahn's lack of empathy so the dragons loose all or sympathy.

After all, sacrificing a little girl is vile and all but so is Genocide. But I find it hard to condemn the dragons for it, considering that their whole species was at stake. And ore importantly, it doesn't retroactively justify humans for starting the war in the first place.

Speaking of Jahn, he does this all the time. Acting inhuman and ridiculing human emotions:

Jahn: "Then, after seeing it as the little girl, Idoun, he must have felt pity. It is another emotion that we Dragons cannot comprehend."

...

Jahn: "And thus, at the bottom of his heart, he didn't want to kill her. In my opinion, I would never leave something that would be a danger to me alive."

...

Jahn: "Hate? Only humans have such ridiculous emotions. We battled to maintain our species, and we lost. That is all."

...

Brenya: "...Our chances of winning are slim. Still, we are the Bern Army, the strongest standing force on the continent. We shall at the very least show them our unbending will."

Jahn: "Will... You humans take actions incomprehensible to us at times. Would your will raise your chances of winning? ...Very well, I suppose. We all have our methods of battle."

But think about it: There is no reason for Jahn to have no emotions. No other dragons do. Not the Elder in the village, nor Fa, nor Ninian and Nils. No other dragon in the series share this trait either. In fact, the only other Fire Dragon was Bantu who had pity towards Tiki, who was put asleep so she wouldn't loose her mind.

The writers only have him act inhuman so we not only sympathize with him over his situation.

After all, he is the only the only survivor of his species. He saw humans slaughter all of his kind and was left injured for a thousand years in the temple.

He has all the reason in the world to hate humans and wanting to terminate them. He is essentially Reyson.

But he has no emotions. So he never gets angry like Reyson and we never feel empathy towards him.

And then there is this:

Jahn: "Do you feel pity, like Hartmut did? ...You humans are truly difficult to understand. But let me tell you this. No matter how hard you try, humans and Dragons will never be able to live in harmony. The gap between our species is impossible to fill."

Roy: "That's not true! I know a place where Dragons and humans live together. Dragons and humans both were brought into the same world. They can, and will understand each other!"

Jahn: "Dragons and humans, living together in harmony? Rubbish... I have no intention of listening to such nonsense. Now, enter my domain. Let us see who has more power!"

Roy's argument is just as ignorant as above with Zephidel. You know Roy, there was another time were humans and dragons lived peacefully. It's called the time before your ancestors slaughtered them all. Jahn knows this time. He also knows how it ended.

Sure, they live peaceful in the village now but who knows how long that will last? Roy only wins this argument because Jahn refuse to believe him, even though he could tear his case apart with his first-hand experience.

So, that's the end in a nutshell: Humans = good, Dragons = bad

It puts no new perspective on the opening. Humans are still genocidal bastards. It's just emotional manipulation. This is "One death is a tragedy, one million is a statistic" without any irony...

In retrospective it's not hard to see what kind of story this was supposed to be:

The hero goes through all kinds of challenges that show him the bad parts of humanity.

The villain challenges mankinds right to exists. He knows about the bad parts but he also knows that the good outweighs the bad. He is proven right, when his conviction shows to be stronger then his opponents.

And then Jahn comes in. His lack of emotions makes us truly see all the good parts of humanity.

But like I said before, this story doesn't fit with the opening since Roy is never confronted with the true extend of the evil that humanity is capable of. So when he defends mankind, he only comes across as ignorant.

So why is the opening like it is? Why not just say that the dragons were evil, like in Akaneia?

And then there is FE7.

It had essentially the same opening. So if they wanted to retcon something, they wasted their opportunity here. Human's are still genocidal bastards. It's actually confirmed by Ninian but not until the very end.

The whole worshiping of the "Divine Generals" also stays the same though it's even more annoying here since we actually meet them in person.

Par for the course, no critical word is lost about them. It's all the same as in the previous game, which is very convenient since I am getting tired after writing and reading for 5 and a half hours for this post.

Athos is an important character in the game and eventually joins the party before he dies. All the while he is treated sympathetically. And he never says anything about his role in the war. No justification or explanation whatsoever. Human's still are... well you get the idea. And the people of Arcadia apparently invited him... seriously...

But while Athos might not talk about the war, his silence is quite noisy. What I mean is, that it's absolutely absurd that Athos doesn't have to answer for it.

The most important characters because our protagonists are Nergal, Ninian and Nils.

Their are united by Aenir. As a reminder, she was Nergal's wife and Ninian and Nils mother. She was killed during "the Scouring". they are all victims of the war lead by Athos and the Divine Generals.

They all have reasons for demanding answers from Athos but they never do. The kids stay quiet and Nergal conveniently antagonizes him for entirely unrelated reasons.

All those opportunities to shed some light on the past wasted.

And our protagonists aren't confronted with those things either. The revaluation about their mother was a victim of the war was made in that ridiculously hidden chapter. And it happened when they were already gone. It never reached our heroes.

Well, not entirely. At the end Ninian apologizes and mentions that humans invaded them. Eliwood says this:

"We humans, we took control of the continent like it was our right.

We never considered who or what we drove away...

...Ninian, Nils, the blame for this was never yours alone.

While we can claim ignorance, we still bear some responsibility."

That's all their is after 2 games. Humans bear "some" responsibility... *sigh*

In Telius, the 10 year old Empress of Begnion took responsibility for the genocide her people committed by kneeing in front of the last survivors of the herons, begging for forgiveness on behalf of her people.

In Elibe, you can pass just by saying that it would be nice if humans and dragons could live together and if you are a very great person you might even admit "some" responsibility. Maybe.

As leaders and heroes of the humans during The Scouring Athos and Company carry responsibility for it. It's not like I can't imagine a reason why Athos and the others participated in the war. They may have their reasons.

But without the games providing any, they may have just as well slaughtered them all because they had fangs. If you commit genocide, you can't just go entirely unquestioned like this.

I'm not bad-mounding these games for the hell of it. The reason I am bad-mounding them because I genuine think those two games are absolutely disgusting.

May it be because of incompetence, laziness, or meddling executives: In the end we have two games which think that committing genocide somehow goes hand-in-hand with being a shining pillar of human virtue without giving any other reason why.

[dondon151]

everyone knows that the dragons are just an allegorical representation of those dirty, dirty foreigners that threaten the japanese culture and lifestyle

down with foreigners NIPPON FOREVERRR

Edited September 23, 2012 by dondon151

[Chainsaw Police]

hahaha oh man

you're thinking way too deeply into this.

like really, wow.

[Book of Ereshkigal]

You're right :/

There are a lot of things FE7 could've elaborated on, but didn't. TBH, FE7 is one big wasted opportunity.

Well, I didn't like FE7 before this, so lol anyway

LOL 6 min double post

Edited September 23, 2012 by L95

[Baldrick]

First off, you're really pushing the genocide angle. (15 uses of the word) We know of three groups of dragons; the ones that stayed and fought, the ones that fled through the Dragon's Gate,the Divine Dragons that fled into the Nabata Desert. Only one group were killed by the humans, and they were all soldiers, actively trying to kill them. Fire Emblem is a series about war, so there will inevitably be death: if killing one's enemies on the battlefield is genocide, then every protagonist in the series is guilty of it. To be fair, humans started the war, but that can't be used to pass judgement on humanity as a whole.

When Athos discovered Arcadia, he says "I came across the most amazing village… It was unbelievable, but in that place, humans and dragons lived together in cooperation... At first, I doubted what my own eyes showed me. But yes, the village truly did exist."

Think about the implications of this; Athos has never seen a dragon that isn't trying to kill him. The narration claims "humans and dragons lived together in peace". Yet Athos, who presumably lived before the Scouring, thought that humans and dragons living together was "amazing" and "unbelievable". Either Athos or the opening spiel is feeding us false information. One has a wealth of evidence to support it, and the other, as you have noted, is completely ignored by the rest of the plot, and seems to be from a different game.

The whole "Eight Heroes are evil" theory doesn't have any significant support.

Every time the war is brought up, it simply says "mankind fought the dragons". It takes the war for granted.

The war is discussed by the human characters. It is ancient history for them, shrouded in mystery. Even Niime, who has studied the war, has a lot of gaps in her knowledge.

For example when we come to Arcadia, everyone we meet is friendly. Nothing hints that they are all survivors of the massacre caused by Roy's ancestors. You would be think they would have all kind of sore feelings or traumatic or something, but nope.

The first they see of Roy's army is when they rout Bern's army who have been attacking them. And they aren't friendly until they find out Roy rescued Sophia. And they've been living with humans for a thousand years; all but two of them have human blood in them. Slightly different from the Laguz who live segregated from humans, and have memories of being enslaved/slaughtered by humans.

Athos spend centuries in Arcadia with doing anything about it, his own father didn't do anything about it despite him probably being married to a dragon and Roy doesn't mention wanting to do anything about it either. And of course, the epilogue doesn't mention him ever doing anything like that.

He can only make this argument out of ignorance.

Athos only led the remaining dragons to an oasis, where they remained safe for hundreds of years. What was Eliwood supposed to do? The Gate could not be opened again. Bringing the Arcadians out into the public isn't going to achieve much, apart from putting them at risk from being killed by paranoid humans.

The only thing that was different from the legends he heard was that the Divine Weapons were the cause of the Ending Winter, instead of the thing straightening it out.

The Dark Dragon is not the leader of the Dragons, but a being capable of making more dragons. That's the significant part.

But I find it hard to condemn the dragons for it, considering that their whole species was at stake. And ore importantly, it doesn't retroactively justify humans for starting the war in the first place.

Jahn conveniently left out the Divine Dragons who hid themselves and Nils' group who fled (they fled before the Dark Dragon was created, because Nils was caught off guard by the effects of the Ending Winter).

The fact that Jahn is silent about the actual origin of the war is telling, I think.

I'll take the rest tomorrow.

[Chainsaw Police]

First off, you're really pushing the genocide angle. (15 uses of the word) We know of three groups of dragons; the ones that stayed and fought, the ones that fled through the Dragon's Gate,the Divine Dragons that fled into the Nabata Desert. Only one group were killed by the humans, and they were all soldiers, actively trying to kill them. Fire Emblem is a series about war, so there will inevitably be death: if killing one's enemies on the battlefield is genocide, then every protagonist in the series is guilty of it. To be fair, humans started the war, but that can't be used to pass judgement on humanity as a whole.

When Athos discovered Arcadia, he says "I came across the most amazing village… It was unbelievable, but in that place, humans and dragons lived together in cooperation... At first, I doubted what my own eyes showed me. But yes, the village truly did exist."

Think about the implications of this; Athos has never seen a dragon that isn't trying to kill him. The narration claims "humans and dragons lived together in peace". Yet Athos, who presumably lived before the Scouring, thought that humans and dragons living together was "amazing" and "unbelievable". Either Athos or the opening spiel is feeding us false information. One has a wealth of evidence to support it, and the other, as you have noted, is completely ignored by the rest of the plot, and seems to be from a different game.

The whole "Eight Heroes are evil" theory doesn't have any significant support.

The war is discussed by the human characters. It is ancient history for them, shrouded in mystery. Even Niime, who has studied the war, has a lot of gaps in her knowledge.

The first they see of Roy's army is when they rout Bern's army who have been attacking them. And they aren't friendly until they find out Roy rescued Sophia. And they've been living with humans for a thousand years; all but two of them have human blood in them. Slightly different from the Laguz who live segregated from humans, and have memories of being enslaved/slaughtered by humans.

Athos only led the remaining dragons to an oasis, where they remained safe for hundreds of years. What was Eliwood supposed to do? The Gate could not be opened again. Bringing the Arcadians out into the public isn't going to achieve much, apart from putting them at risk from being killed by paranoid humans.

The Dark Dragon is not the leader of the Dragons, but a being capable of making more dragons. That's the significant part.

Jahn conveniently left out the Divine Dragons who hid themselves and Nils' group who fled (they fled before the Dark Dragon was created, because Nils was caught off guard by the effects of the Ending Winter).

The fact that Jahn is silent about the actual origin of the war is telling, I think.

I'll take the rest tomorrow.

Beastly response

Edited September 23, 2012 by Chainsaw Police

[Axie]

if the opening merely said "However, that harmony was broken when the dragons suddenly started to invade" this entire thread would implode

also, just because the opening said humankind started the war suddenly doesn't mean it was without reason I really doubt IS would want to make their heroes look bad.

[BrightBow]

First off, you're really pushing the genocide angle. (15 uses of the word) We know of three groups of dragons; the ones that stayed and fought, the ones that fled through the Dragon's Gate,the Divine Dragons that fled into the Nabata Desert. Only one group were killed by the humans, and they were all soldiers, actively trying to kill them. Fire Emblem is a series about war, so there will inevitably be death: if killing one's enemies on the battlefield is genocide, then every protagonist in the series is guilty of it. To be fair, humans started the war, but that can't be used to pass judgement on humanity as a whole.

It doesn't say anything about the dragons in Nabata being are all divine dragons. And one of the dragons in the CG looks way to dark to be a Divine Dragon anyway.

But more importantly, the dragons who were killed were not just soldiers. Were does it say that? All it says, is that the Divine Dragons suddenly disappeared.

Jahn: "As we were discussing how we could persuade the Divine Dragons to help us, they suddenly disappeared."

Unless of course, the soldiers were somehow the only dragons who did not know about the escape plan. But that seems a bit unlikely.

Honestly, are you seriously arguing that not a single non-combatant was killed by the humans? Then what are you calling Aenir?

Not to mention, bing a soldier doesn't mean that your life has no value. And the protagonists of the series usually have a reason for going to war. Here, we have nothing like that. Just humanity wiping of a sentient species of the face of the continent.

When Athos discovered Arcadia, he says "I came across the most amazing village… It was unbelievable, but in that place, humans and dragons lived together in cooperation... At first, I doubted what my own eyes showed me. But yes, the village truly did exist."

Think about the implications of this; Athos has never seen a dragon that isn't trying to kill him. The narration claims "humans and dragons lived together in peace". Yet Athos, who presumably lived before the Scouring, thought that humans and dragons living together was "amazing" and "unbelievable". Either Athos or the opening spiel is feeding us false information. One has a wealth of evidence to support it, and the other, as you have noted, is completely ignored by the rest of the plot, and seems to be from a different game.

The whole "Eight Heroes are evil" theory doesn't have any significant support.

I would say that if you wipe of an entirely sentient species of the map, you probably need support for not being evil.

The war is discussed by the human characters. It is ancient history for them, shrouded in mystery. Even Niime, who has studied the war, has a lot of gaps in her knowledge.

Of course, I said at the very beginning of the post that it makes sense from an in-universe perspective. To quote Lethe:

Lethe: ...Are you serious? I take it humans aren't interested in passing history down to their children... ...Typical.

But there is no reason for them to stay ignorant during the whole thing. Especially if they throw speeches around as if they knew what they are talking about.

The first they see of Roy's army is when they rout Bern's army who have been attacking them. And they aren't friendly until they find out Roy rescued Sophia. And they've been living with humans for a thousand years; all but two of them have human blood in them. Slightly different from the Laguz who live segregated from humans, and have memories of being enslaved/slaughtered by humans.

They also have these memories. I already said that. Dragons age so slowly that Ninian and Nils barely aged during 1000 years. The dragons that survived the Scouring should still be alive. The younger ones would not be much older then Fa.

Athos only led the remaining dragons to an oasis, where they remained safe for hundreds of years. What was Eliwood supposed to do? The Gate could not be opened again. Bringing the Arcadians out into the public isn't going to achieve much, apart from putting them at risk from being killed by paranoid humans.

Exactly. It's essentially impossible. And that proves Roy's big argument towards Zephidel in favor of humanity, that humans always right their wrongs, as simply false. That's why I brought it up. To show how ignorant Roy is.

The Dark Dragon is not the leader of the Dragons, but a being capable of making more dragons. That's the significant part.

It might be that this was what they were referring to. But the legends already say that dragons were the bad guys and the Divine Heroes the good guys. To me this seems rather minor and I was hoping for some sort of acknowledgement of the opening.

Jahn conveniently left out the Divine Dragons who hid themselves and Nils' group who fled (they fled before the Dark Dragon was created, because Nils was caught off guard by the effects of the Ending Winter).

The fact that Jahn is silent about the actual origin of the war is telling, I think.

Jahn is the guy who initially couldn't decide whether or not he should even tell the story to Roy because it doesn't make a practical difference. If he got an advantage out of lying, he would have done so and never been so undecided in the first place.

And if he simply didn't want to admit having done something evil (which makes no sense, giving his emotionless nature) then why would he have been so open about the whole "destroying a little girls soul" thing?

And I could make the same argument about Athos staying silent about the war.

Not to mention that this chapter promises that: "Roy was to learn the truth behind the legends that he had always heard"

The chapter is even called "The Truth of the Legend." One of the songs that only plays here is called "Shocking Truth".

Everything points towards Jahn saying nothing but the truth.

And even if he somehow was, it was the game's job to provide reason to disbelief him.

I'll take the rest tomorrow.

Sure. Thanks for the elaborate response. It must have taken some time getting through all of that.

I probably should have just said: "They never acknowledge the opening anywhere else" and only bring up the rest of the stuff up if someone asks.

if the opening merely said "However, that harmony was broken when the dragons suddenly started to invade" this entire thread would implode

Yeah, that's my point. The just casually mention that humanity attacked in the opening and then stay quiet about in during the rest of the game while singing the praises of the Divine Generals. If the opening wasn't there, it wouldn't be a problem. But they even reinforced it by having it in the opening of both games.

also, just because the opening said humankind started the war suddenly doesn't mean it was without reason I really doubt IS would want to make their heroes look bad.

Yes, but there is no other explanation provided. If I may repeat myself: "I would say that if you wipe of an entirely sentient species of the map, you probably need support for not being evil."

Edited September 23, 2012 by BrightBow

[Lord Raven]

The fuck? Dragons were banished through the dragon's gate, they weren't all killed.

EDIT: On top of all of that, Jahn is somewhat manipulative and stuff he says is only half truth in the end anyway.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

dragons have to drink from the colored water fountain

[BrightBow]

The fuck? Dragons were banished through the dragon's gate, they weren't all killed.

I don't understand your point. Unless you are saying that the Scouring wasn't bad because some dragons could avoid being killed.

EDIT: On top of all of that, Jahn is somewhat manipulative and stuff he says is only half truth in the end anyway.

This is based on what? What reason do we have to assume that he is lying? And what is he supposedly lying about?

[Gaggle of Geese]

dragons have to drink from the colored water fountain

dondon, I am absolutely loving these responses. Please continue derailing the thread.

First post

tl;dr

Edited September 23, 2012 by Dalsin

[Lord Raven]

I don't understand your point. Unless you are saying that the Scouring wasn't bad because some dragons could avoid being killed.

I wasn't making a point, I was making a factual statement. The dragons weren't all killed; there was no genocide. There was a war, and upon losing the dragons were banished through the dragon's gate.

[Balcerzak]

I think many people would disagree that an attempt at genocide has to be completely successful for it to count as genocide. The fact there were still Jewish survivors of the Final Solution, being one prominent counterexample.

[BrightBow]

I wasn't making a point, I was making a factual statement. The dragons weren't all killed; there was no genocide. There was a war, and upon losing the dragons were banished through the dragon's gate.

They weren't banished through the dragons gate. They escaped through the dragons gate. Dragons were the ones who build the gate in the first place, remember? That's why humans can't use it. They weren't all nicely rounded up and forced through.

And the war may have had survivors on the dragons part but not for lack of trying on part of the humans. They had to hid into the deep of the desert or literally into a different dimension.

[Lord Raven]

Not quite what I'm saying, because I don't think the humans so much attempted genocide as to drive the dragons out (seeing as they were a danger). They've left the details of the scouring pretty vague as a whole, so interpret as you must.

Edited September 23, 2012 by Lord Raven

[dondon151]

dondon, I am absolutely loving these responses. Please continue derailing the thread.

sadly i am out of material already, any further would be outstaying my welcome

Edited September 23, 2012 by dondon151

[BrightBow]

Not quite what I'm saying, because I don't think the humans so much attempted genocide as to drive the dragons out (seeing as they were a danger) more than end their species.

Yes. Athos himself said that he couldn't believe that dragons and humans could exist peacefully.

But here is the thing: Humans can't travel between worlds. So the only way for them to "drive the dragons out" would be to kill them.

[Swordsalmon]

Let's be honest, if you were living around a bunch of intelligent, angry, flying reptiles capable of incinerating everything you owned and eating your loved ones without a second thought, wouldn't you prefer getting rid of them?

[Anouleth]

sadly i am out of material already, any further would be outstaying my welcome

yeah we don't want your sort around here

you ltcer

[Baldrick]

But more importantly, the dragons who were killed were not just soldiers. Were does it say that? All it says, is that the Divine Dragons suddenly disappeared.

Unless of course, the soldiers were somehow the only dragons who did not know about the escape plan. But that seems a bit unlikely.

Honestly, are you seriously arguing that not a single non-combatant was killed by the humans? Then what are you calling Aenir?

What about Nils' group? Their exodus was not a secret. It's a reasonable assumption that any dragons that did not flee intended to fight the humans.

It's entirely possible that civilians were killed at some point. But there's no evidence that any civilians were left when the Ending Winter occured.

Not to mention, bing a soldier doesn't mean that your life has no value. And the protagonists of the series usually have a reason for going to war. Here, we have nothing like that. Just humanity wiping of a sentient species of the face of the continent.

True, but a soldier dying in a fight to the death of his own free will cannot be construed as genocide. After the Demon Dragon was sealed, all the Dragons either were killed in battle, hiding in the desert where humans couldn't find them, or had fled through the Dragon's Gate.

How can you say humans did not have a valid reason?

I would say that if you wipe of an entirely sentient species of the map, you probably need support for not being evil.

The burden of proof does not shift depending on how awful the supposed actions are. If you have an alternate interpretation of the plot, your evidence must hold up to scrutiny, otherwise it's no better than a lack of evidence.

But there is no reason for them to stay ignorant during the whole thing. Especially if they throw speeches around as if they knew what they are talking about.

They don't encounter anyone who was there until Jahn. Roy takes everything he says at face value.

They also have these memories. I already said that. Dragons age so slowly that Ninian and Nils barely aged during 1000 years. The dragons that survived the Scouring should still be alive. The younger ones would not be much older then Fa.

As far as we know, the only pure-blood Dragons in Arcadia are the Elder and Fa. Fa has no memory, and the Elder is suspicious of Roy until he mentions Sophia. The Laguz, unlike the Arcadians, have not been taught to hate humans.

Exactly. It's essentially impossible. And that proves Roy's big argument towards Zephidel in favor of humanity, that humans always right their wrongs, as simply false. That's why I brought it up. To show how ignorant Roy is.

You're taking Roy too literally. He is not saying that humans have magically fixed every bad thing that happened. He is saying humans are capable of making up for their mistakes, and good leaders always do, within reason.

You said Eliwood didn't do anything to right the wrongs. Tell me, what was he supposed to do?

It might be that this was what they were referring to. But the legends already say that dragons were the bad guys and the Divine Heroes the good guys. To me this seems rather minor and I was hoping for some sort of acknowledgement of the opening.

I thought the Ending Winter thing made it clear that there were no clear good guys or bad guys. The legends were wrong in painting the dragons as pure evil, but that doesn't mean the other extreme is necessarily true.

Unfortunately, neither Roy nor Jahn seems to be interested in the origin of the war. We need a game based around it (or at least some exposition) so we can have some closure.

Jahn is the guy who initially couldn't decide whether or not he should even tell the story to Roy because it doesn't make a practical difference. If he got an advantage out of lying, he would have done so and never been so undecided in the first place.

If his intention was to gain a psychological advantage by lying, his indecision could be a ruse designed to make his deceit less clear. I can't be sure of Jahn's true nature, but I do know his justification for the Dark Dragon (Dragons would become extinct if they lost) is faulty, because they did lose, but two groups of Dragons survived.

And if he simply didn't want to admit having done something evil (which makes no sense, giving his emotionless nature) then why would he have been so open about the whole "destroying a little girls soul" thing?

I'm not saying that Dragons were totally responsible for the war because Jahn didn't say otherwise, but that if Dragons had no part in starting it, Jahn would have mentioned it.

And I could make the same argument about Athos staying silent about the war.

Sure. If humans had no part in starting it, Athos would have mentioned it.

Not to mention that this chapter promises that: "Roy was to learn the truth behind the legends that he had always heard"

The chapter is even called "The Truth of the Legend." One of the songs that only plays here is called "Shocking Truth".

Everything points towards Jahn saying nothing but the truth.

And even if he somehow was, it was the game's job to provide reason to disbelief him.

That's fair enough. Some of what he says has no counterevidence (Ending Winter, Dark Dragon) and so we should take it as true. Other parts (Dragons would be extinct if humans won, Dragons have no emotions) are clearly wrong (Fa exists and has emotions) and so we don't believe him.

Sure. Thanks for the elaborate response. It must have taken some time getting through all of that.

I probably should have just said: "They never acknowledge the opening anywhere else" and only bring up the rest of the stuff up if someone asks.

Yeah, that's my point. The just casually mention that humanity attacked in the opening and then stay quiet about in during the rest of the game while singing the praises of the Divine Generals. If the opening wasn't there, it wouldn't be a problem. But they even reinforced it by having it in the opening of both games.

My personal view on the opening is that taken to its logical conclusion, FE6 breaks so many established conventions (every game has a happy ending, the villain is sympathetic, but ultimately in the wrong) that the opening is either badly translated, or an extreme oversimplification of the issue.

The problem is, "humans attacked first" can be interpreted two ways; that humans attacked with provocation, or without provocation. The former doesn't undermine the message of the rest of the game, but the latter does. Without any evidence in the rest of the game to disprove the former, we must take the former as the correct explanation.

Yes, but there is no other explanation provided. If I may repeat myself: "I would say that if you wipe of an entirely sentient species of the map, you probably need support for not being evil."

Absence of proof is not proof of abscene. Just because the game doesn't tell us why humans invaded, that doesn't mean we can why they definitely did it for shits and giggles.

[VincentASM]

I can kind of understand your frustration at getting a concrete answer, but it probably won't ever come. Which isn't a bad thing because then fans have got stuff to talk about.

Case in point, FE1/3, 20 years ago, already had a story where man attacked dragons and I'm pretty sure they never explained why man did it.

If you notice the similarity in FE1/3 and FE6/7's backstory, it's likely the developers have similar themes in their games. So I'm wondering if you could look to the Beorc and Laguz conflict for a reason why the humans may have invaded. I mean, the humans invaded the Laguz as well early on in Tellius's history, but the Laguz actually managed to make a successful comeback unlike the dragons.

Edited September 24, 2012 by VincentASM

[Baldrick]

I guess a perfectly plotted story, with no loose ends or ambiguity, wouldn't generate a lot of discussion...

I always thought that there was some link between Elibe and Akaneia. Both have Divine Dragons and Dark Dragons, one that builds a relationship with humanity and the other

that fights humanity, an event that forced dragons to take human form, and similar countries. I wonder if any of the DLC will confirm the theory that the world beyond the Dragon's Gate is Akaneia.

[dondon151]

yeah we don't want your sort around here

you ltcer

how do you pronounce that there are not enough vowels

[Ϲharlie]

Enough with the nonsense replies already.