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MarkyJoe1990

Fire Mumblem: The Chronicles of Lussaria (Beta 1 Released! 1/2/2014)

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I gotta say, this hack easily has the highest quality humor of any hack I've played. A very strong first impression.

Also, is Lussaria's defense growth high? She's gained defense for me 3 times in a row so far. Could just be RNG being RNG though.

Yeah, she has very good defense. She's... honestly the best unit despite her abysmal speed growth.

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Chapter didn't end when I murdered Derkin. Is this the current end of the hack?

You were supposed to be able to go to outdated map 2. I'll have to fix it when I get back from work.

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Chapter didn't end when I murdered Derkin. Is this the current end of the hack?

I looked at the death quote editor and noticed that I accidentally removed Derkin's death quote. That was probably the thing that ends the chapter. I'll get to fixing it since... work isn't for another hour anyway and I think I can go fast enough.

EDIT: Fixed it. Hopefully.

The weapon triangle house opened my eyes.

Good work on this one Mark.

Hehe~ Thanks~

Edited by MarkyJoe1990

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"...Challenging... at the last moment." - Sqawl

"...this hack easily has the highest quality... RNG" - General Ciraxis

"there's no readme" - Agro

"I murdered... the hack" - Zahlman

getting ready for the TV commercial with epic review snippets in a dramatic voice

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I found three bugs playing through Outdated Map 1:

1. Yurino has no affinity.

2. Anyone can use Ereshkigal because it has no rank. This normally wouldn't be an issue but attacking with anyone but Overlord crashes the game...

3. Kinsan's Magic bonus didn't work right, it gave Lucy Speed instead.

Also the inn selling booze is a lovely little touch.

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I found three bugs playing through Outdated Map 1:

1. Yurino has no affinity.

2. Anyone can use Ereshkigal because it has no rank. This normally wouldn't be an issue but attacking with anyone but Overlord crashes the game...

3. Kinsan's Magic bonus didn't work right, it gave Lucy Speed instead.

Also the inn selling booze is a lovely little touch.

Number three was recently fixed, so if you downloaded this on the day it was released or perhaps a little later, you may still experience the issue.

I'll fix Yurino's thingy. As I will with Ereshkigal.

EDIT: Fixed the first two. If the third one is still an issue, I guess I didn't fix it and will do so.

Edited by MarkyJoe1990

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Well, I really enjoyed this!

The gameplay is good-- I'm glad that what you wrote in various topics actually HAS some meaning. It would be quite ironic to go tell others about map design and stuff and then make an horribly designed hack. Obviously this is not the case and the chapters were enjoyable and challenging. I just didn't like that you actually removed the permadeath with the excuse of making chapters so hard that you won't get through them without getting anyone killed. That actually makes the player lazy most of the times, and it isn't a *really* necessary feature unless you want to throw some unbeatable shit at us at some point, which isn't exactly "good" in my book. But whatever, everything so far was great, the humor especially. I'm looking forward for more.

Just don't get writer's block and turn into a dragon every two chapters, Marc

Edited by Alfred Kamon

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You might wanna mark that last sentence as a spoiler. >_____>

Anyway. I completely disagree about the permadeath thing.

Backstory time!

My removal of permadeath was inspired by the Disgaea series. Particularly Disgaea 4. I went and played through the game under the self imposed challenge that I would grind only when I felt it was absolutely necessary. The game got extremely hard in the last few chapters to the point where losing units was pretty much inevitable. Instead of making me lazy however, I had to very carefully consider what sacrifices I would have to make, and whether those sacrafices would be enough to earn me victory. Will it be worth it to lose my mage in order to damage this entire row of super strong enemies? Should I send my fighter on a suicide mission in order to buy my other units time to heal up?

I don't feel it's correct to say that lack of permadeath makes you lazy. Losing units STILL is bad. Each one lost means less fire power to fight the enemies with, and it also means that unit won't be gaining more experience until the next chapter, so you might have to use the next chapter to get them back up to snuff, which can sometimes prove to be difficult, especially if the chapter has multiple desired sub-objectives.

Lack of permadeath isn't uncommon in Strategy RPGs, and while Fire Emblem uses permadeath to make itself stand out, I have never liked the mechanic, especially when implemented in a game where enemies can land an unlucky 1% critical hit and ruin whatever cautious playing you had done prior. It's frustrating and demotivating, and it only gets worse when playing on longer maps.

Edited by MarkyJoe1990

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You might wanna mark that last sentence as a spoiler. >_____>

Oh whelp. Sorry about that.

By the way, I have the feeling that most of the discussions you guys have in the hack actually happened for real on Skype or something like that. Basically, they're not totally fictional. Am I wrong?

I went and played through the game under the self imposed challenge that I would grind only when I felt it was absolutely necessary. The game got extremely hard in the last few chapters to the point where losing units was pretty much inevitable. Instead of making me lazy however, I had to very carefully consider what sacrifices I would have to make, and whether those sacrafices would be enough to earn me victory. Will it be worth it to lose my mage in order to damage this entire row of super strong enemies? Should I send my fighter on a suicide mission in order to buy my other units time to heal up?

I can understand that, but you applied the same concept to a Fire Emblem game, and since the very beginning. You can play the first few chapters without putting any thought on them, honestly. I also played your patch with the self imposed challenge that I would not let anybody die, but if I actually didn't care I could just have thrown my units away-- this is not fun at all, honestly, no matter the reasons behind it. Also is it even necessary to have uber units that you can only beat by sacrificing your own?

Alternatively, you could disable the permadeath only on certain chapters, for example.

Lack of permadeath isn't uncommon in Strategy RPGs, and while Fire Emblem uses permadeath to make itself stand out, I have never liked the mechanic, especially when implemented in a game where enemies can land an unlucky 1% critical hit and ruin whatever cautious playing you had done prior. It's frustrating and demotivating, and it only gets worse when playing on longer maps.

Meh, even if you say it was "frustrating and demotivating", I think it's probably the most exciting mechanic that FE has. I think that people restart chapters due to some mistakes they commit in their planning and not because of RNG most of the times. And if they keep losing on a chapter because of RNG, that simply means that it was poorly designed.

In any case it's a nice feature to have in your project if you'll manage to make it work, and I'm curious to see what you will do with it, since I can't understand much from the first two chapters alone.

Edited by Alfred Kamon

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Oh whelp. Sorry about that.

By the way, I have the feeling that most of the discussions you guys have in the hack actually happened for real on Skype or something like that. Basically, they're not totally fictional. Am I wrong?

I can understand that, but you applied the same concept to a Fire Emblem game, and since the very beginning. You can play the first few chapters without putting any thought on them, honestly. I also played your patch with the self imposed challenge that I would not let anybody die, but if I actually didn't care I could just have thrown my units away-- this is not fun at all, honestly, no matter the reasons behind it. Also is it even necessary to have uber units that you can only beat by sacrificing your own?

Alternatively, you could disable the permadeath only on certain chapters, for example.

Meh, even if you say it was "frustrating and demotivating", I think it's probably the most exciting mechanic that FE has. I think that people restart chapters due to some mistakes they commit in their planning and not because of RNG most of the times. And if they keep losing on a chapter because of RNG, that simply means that it was poorly designed.

In any case it's a nice feature to have in your project if you'll manage to make it work, and I'm curious to see what you will do with it, since I can't understand much from the first two chapters alone.

Uuuuuuugh. We're really doing this, huh?

Okay, I'll start by answering your first question (the spoilered one)

The hacker dialogues are heavily inspired by conversations I've had with the Mumblem team.

To answer the rest of your stuff... listen, I know what I'm doing. I wouldn't have implemented the mechanic if I didn't think it worked. I have some friends who hate Fire Emblem because of the frustration of permadeath, and I happen to think the feature is dated. I'd rather give the player the fear of flat out losing over the fear of losing some bloke they liked. I also feel the lack of permadeath fits the light hearted nature of the hack.

I have a question though. What SRPGs have you played that lacked permadeath, Alfred?

Edited by MarkyJoe1990

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Uuuuuuugh. We're really doing this, huh?

So it seems, but... I-I didn't expect it to happen this soon, I'm not ready Marc-kun... Please be gentle...

To answer the rest of your stuff... listen, I know what I'm doing. I wouldn't have implemented the mechanic if I didn't think it worked.

Of course, I'm not trying to doubt your choices or being offensive here!

I just want to understand and learn... If I know what people don't like about permadeath or FE difficulty in general, I can make a better hack myself.

That is all, really.

I also feel the lack of permadeath fits the light hearted nature of the hack.

I totally agree with you on this.

I have a question though. What SRPGs have you played that lacked permadeath, Alfred?

Hmm... only Final Fantasy Tactics, I think.

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So it seems, but... I-I didn't expect it to happen this soon, I'm not ready Marc-kun... Please be gentle...

..... >______>

Of course, I'm not trying to doubt your choices or being offensive here!

I just want to understand and learn... If I know what people don't like about permadeath or FE difficulty in general, I can make abetter hack myself.

That is all, really.

So long as the chapter design is solid, the only big problem with permadeath is that it's extremely punishing to the player, and that's a big problem that becomes even worse when you're playing chapters that are particularly long; hours of careful thinking and progress? All gone because Myrmidon guy bit the bullet. Extremely demotivating. I once stopped playing FE7 Eliwood Hard Mode for months because Lucius died to Lloyd in that fog of war chapter, all because I didn't think the boss would actually move (I played only normal mode prior), and it took a while just to get that point in the chapter (because I sucked at the time, but I digress).

I feel the REAL question here is "What's wrong with a LACK of permadeath?"

People seem to think that if there's no permadeath, there's no reason to give a crap about your strategy, but that is completely untrue. The threat of permadeath is losing a unit, but without permadeath, you can scale the difficulty to create the threat of total defeat. Both are ways to lose, and both can breed tension. The former breeds tension by making the player hope those 30%s miss, and the latter gives tension because "ohmygod ohmygod I only have three units left, will I be able to beat the rest of the forces!? Were Jame's and Giftul's suicides effective enough?"

Personally, I find the latter less frustrating.

Hmm... only Final Fantasy Tactics, I think.

I've only played a little bit of FFT, but doesn't it have permadeath? I have a friend who's really big on that game.

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..... >______>

I told you I wasn't ready.

So long as the chapter design is solid, the only big problem with permadeath is that it's extremely punishing to the player, and that's a big problem that becomes even worse when you're playing chapters that are particularly long; hours of careful thinking and progress? All gone because Myrmidon guy bit the bullet. Extremely demotivating. I once stopped playing FE7 Eliwood Hard Mode for months because Lucius died to Lloyd in that fog of war chapter, all because I didn't think the boss would actually move (I played only normal mode prior), and it took a while just to get that point in the chapter (because I sucked at the time, but I digress).

Hmmm.... yes, I can understand that. I think a good example of what you're saying would be the Lagdou Ruins in FE8. The impossibility to save and those 30% Stone of the Gorgons always scared me to death. If you get RNG screwed there, you basically lose HOURS of play. It's mostly post-game material, but still...

As you said, I think that as long as the chapter design is solid there shouldn't be any particular problem. I just removed a Killer Bow from my chapter 8 after this conversation, haha. There is a substantial difference between "challenging hard" and "stupidly hard", after all. A chapter that is basically unbeatable without savestates or without playing it at least three times is just stupid imo.

Also if I get it right, you're trying to create something similar to Lunatic/Casual/no grind Mode in Awakening... just better designed. Which is pretty good.

I've only played a little bit of FFT, but doesn't it have permadeath? I have a friend who's really big on that game.

Hmmm.... It doesn't, as far as I remember? I might be wrong, because I played it back in middle school and I can't remember well, but I think there was the K.O. status. The only way to "lose" some of your units was to "go against laws" (meaning that you, for example, used Thunder or hit with a Sword on a day when that particular action was forbidden... yeah such a nazi world). In that case, they could be sent to prison. But even in that case, you got them back after a while.

That concept was interesting now that you make me think about it. "If you do this, you will be punished... but you're free to do it if you want". I used to go against the rules and have one of my units sent to prison when I *really* needed some particular spell/attack on a certain map no matter what.

... Which is basically what you said about "sacrificing" units, I guess.

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I've no problem with resetting if you learn something from it, and merely because crits don't happen often but screw you over when they do doesn't mean they're badly designed. The thing I feel is good about resetting or dying is if you learn something from it and improve next time. If you get hit in Mario, you know where the next enemy is and can account for it on your next life. In, say, Dark Souls, it's brutally hard but every time you die you learn something from it. If it's the same principle here I've no objection. If it's just removing chance... eh, I'm less of a fan.

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In FFT, fallen characters leave a corpse that can be healed in the usual way, but they fade if dead for too long.

I don't have my laptop with me so I can't play or critique the hack yet.

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I've no problem with resetting if you learn something from it, and merely because crits don't happen often but screw you over when they do doesn't mean they're badly designed.

Why isn't it bad design that you lost because of something that may be out of your control?

The thing I feel is good about resetting or dying is if you learn something from it and improve next time. If you get hit in Mario, you know where the next enemy is and can account for it on your next life. In, say, Dark Souls, it's brutally hard but every time you die you learn something from it. If it's the same principle here I've no objection. If it's just removing chance... eh, I'm less of a fan.

Come on, dude. Do you think I don't understand basic game design? I know the value of failure because I like to play games that are hard, like Castlevania.

In Mario, you're playing relatively short levels that sometimes have checkpoints. The punishment for losing isn't nearly as stupidly severe as losing a dude in Fire Emblem.

The point I'm trying to make is that permadeath in Fire Emblem is an outdated, needlessly cruel punishment for mistakes, and in a game where inconsistency has a huge impact on the way combat plays out such as Fire Emblem, I feel it hurts more than it gives.

Edited by MarkyJoe1990

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Permadeath is an interesting concept. You know how every character has names, classes, supports, ect.? It makes you love the characters. You trained these people. You promoted them. YOU let them win a battle. You love them beyond all else. But you accidentally kill them off in battle. You trained them and stuff for nothing.

Basically what I'm getting at here is that permadeath kills off characters that you know and love. Think of the Pokemon Nuzlocke challenge.

However:

Permadeath also leaves characters very undeveloped and one-dimensional. For example, in FE1, almost everyone in the game gets one conversation.

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Permadeath being outdated is definitely one opinion on the matter but I wouldn't say it's an absolute fact

I changed up my tactics way differently between classic and casual mode in FE13, both have their pros and cons... one isn't totally devoid of purpose or logic making it an absolutely superior option over the other, I don't think *shrug*

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I don't know anything about this hack and I'm... not a really good player.

Permadeath is an interesting concept. You know how every character has names, classes, supports, ect.? It makes you love the characters. You trained these people. You promoted them. YOU let them win a battle. You love them beyond all else. But you accidentally kill them off in battle. You trained them and stuff for nothing.

Basically what I'm getting at here is that permadeath kills off characters that you know and love. Think of the Pokemon Nuzlocke challenge.

However:

Permadeath also leaves characters very undeveloped and one-dimensional. For example, in FE1, almost everyone in the game gets one conversation.

The problem with Permadeath is that those who truly respect it are pretty rare. Most people will start the whole chapter again (especially if it's an unit you really invested), instead of accepting it, dimnishing its impact (or abusing save states, which is worse).

Personnally, my main problem with Permadeath is turtling. I tend to be extra carefull,and end up playing extra safe.

Since one of the goal of this hack is to experiment with the mechanics (at least it was originally), that does works pretty well.

The way I saw it, and I think it will be evven more true in the future, is that the chapter is totally doable without sacrifice, but obtaining every Bonus and/or every chests/Villages force you to take more risk.

And yes, sacrificing units have important consequences. I'm sure protecting your staff bot or thief will be extremely important later.

Lucy still give you a game over, but I'll reset anyway since she's my hardest hitting units.

Anyway, the difference with others FE is that this game is designed with no permadeath in mind, and apparently MarkyJoe1990 really thought about it.

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The problem with Permadeath is that those who truly respect it are pretty rare. Most people will start the whole chapter again (especially if it's an unit you really invested), instead of accepting it, dimnishing its impact (or abusing save states, which is worse).

If I recall correctly, I believe in an interview (around the time of FE3), one of the developer's team members said the point IS to restart when a character dies, to go back for them and not leave them behind. It's why Marth is so 'the power of friendship' and why Altean's never leave friends behind.

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This hack looks amazing. If I had the time (or the incredible skills)I would help you with this hack. Sadly my hack, Volley of War, is still buggy and needs to be evented better. Either way, I wish you good luck on this hack

In FFT, fallen characters leave a corpse that can be healed in the usual way, but they fade if dead for too long.

I don't have my laptop with me so I can't play or critique the hack yet.

I find it funny that we're all sitting here talking about FFT when the subject at hand is Marc's FE mod lol Edited by Balcerzak

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