Best/Worst in the Series Round 166

[Komeiji Koishi]

Only FE10!Ike is a Hero, but w/e.

Most: Ephraim. The dude freaking stormed a castle with 3 other people. The guy's a bro.

Honorable mentions: FE10!Ike, FE5!Leaf, Zigludo

Least: Micaiah.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Spiriter Kalas

[Emeraldfox]

How is Lyn the "least heroic" anyways?

How is Micaiah the "least heroic". Come on, tell us.

Most: RD!Ike

Most of the continent was already affected by Ashera, as in being turned to stone. Beating her just to get things back to normal is heroic to me.

Least: Lyn

I just don't like her and I think she's just an extra sidekick to Eliwood.

[BrightBow]

How is Micaiah the "least heroic". Come on, tell us.

If I might give it a shot.

Micaiah killed 8000 Crimean soldiers in an ambush by setting the canyon they were passing ablaze. The ambush only succeeded, because they didn't expected her to do something this cowardly.

This was the whole Crimean army btw, which is why Ike only fights on the side of Laguz in the following chapters.

Also, she supported her king, even when his orders were far from morally sound. That's about as unheroic as it gets. Every hero who is faced with such a situation will refuse to carry out such an order.

And why we are on it, just because Pelleas' asked her too, she dropped the issue with Izuka and Muarim. Just try to imagine, how Ike would have handled this situation.

And to mention a smaller thing, she has childish dislike of Ike simply because she is jealous of his relationship with Sothe. Granted, there is also the issue that the Daein people dislike him and she empathizes with them, but jealously definitely plays heavily into it.

Edited November 11, 2012 by BrightBow

[Darros]

Most: Leaf

Least: Micaiah

[Emeraldfox]

If I might give it a shot.

Micaiah killed 8000 Crimean soldiers in an ambush by setting the canyon they were passing ablaze. The ambush only succeeded, because they didn't expected her to do something this cowardly.

This was the whole Crimean army btw, which is why Ike only fights on the side of Laguz in the following chapters.

Also, she supported her king, even when his orders were far from morally sound. That's about as unheroic as it gets. Every hero who is faced with such a situation will refuse to carry out such an order.

And why we are on it, just because Pelleas' asked her too, she dropped the issue with Izuka and Muarim. Just try to imagine, how Ike would have handled this situation.

And to mention a smaller thing, she has childish dislike of Ike simply because she is jealous of his relationship with Sothe. Granted, there is also the issue that the Daein people dislike him and she empathizes with them, but jealously definitely plays heavily into it.

Yeah, well, she cares for her people and she did it all for Daein's safety.

[BrightBow]

Yeah, well, she cares for her people and she did it all for Daein's safety.

But this is specifically about an "heroic" Lord. It's not about whether or not she is a good person.

A hero does not allow that their friends get experimented on. And she definitely doesn't continue to work with that person.

And a hero would not participate in an unjust and unnecessary war. She would never follow such an order. And a hero does not kill people by the thousands in an unprovoked attack.

And a hero does not sell her people into slavery, which is what she did when she stopped the Apostle's Army.

She has her fair share of heroic traits. The most obvious being her willingness to sacrifice herself for the sake of others.

But it doesn't

Edited November 11, 2012 by BrightBow

[deuxhero]

Most: Leaf: He fights against the odds in a world of strife. His "army" is the only one that will spare faceless characters.

Least: Micaiah: See above.

Edited November 12, 2012 by deuxhero

[General Horace]

Most: Leaf, easily

honourable mention Celice

Least: uh Eirika i guess

[Batter the Beast]

Most: FE10!Elincia, if she counts. If not, then Leaf.

Least: Lyn

It's kinda confusing with the Tellius series, since the only "Lord" is FE9!Ike. I guess it's the same with Gaiden though.

Edited November 12, 2012 by lolinternets

[Just call me AL]

How is Micaiah the "least heroic"? Come on, tell us.

If I might give it a shot.

Micaiah killed 8000 Crimean soldiers in an ambush by setting the canyon they were passing ablaze. The ambush only succeeded, because they didn't expected her to do something this cowardly.

This was the whole Crimean army btw, which is why Ike only fights on the side of Laguz in the following chapters.

Also, she supported her king, even when his orders were far from morally sound. That's about as unheroic as it gets. Every hero who is faced with such a situation will refuse to carry out such an order.

And why we are on it, just because Pelleas' asked her too, she dropped the issue with Izuka and Muarim. Just try to imagine, how Ike would have handled this situation.

And to mention a smaller thing, she has childish dislike of Ike simply because she is jealous of his relationship with Sothe. Granted, there is also the issue that the Daein people dislike him and she empathizes with them, but jealously definitely plays heavily into it.

But this is specifically about a "heroic" Lord. It's not about whether or not she's a good person.

A hero does not allow their friends get experimented on. And she definitely doesn't continue to work with that person.

And a hero would not participate in an unjust and unnecessary war. She would never follow such an order. And a hero does not kill people by the thousands in an unprovoked attack.

And a hero does not sell her people into slavery. Which is what she did when she stopped the Apostle's Army.

She has her fair share of heroic traits. The most obvious being her willingness to sacrifice herself for the sake of others.

But it doesn't.

Both of these responses by BrightBow pretty much saves me trouble of explaining my reasoning.

Compared to all of that described, how many things do you see Lyn doing that isn't heroic in the slightest? The only instance of such I can recall is her swearing vengeance upon those who killed her family. That's it. Whether or not she's the center of focus, or whether or not you happen to like her, is irrelevant to how heroic she is.

@BrightBow: Some parts of your second response didn't seem clear. I'm sure "that person" is Izuka, and "never follow such an order" likely means Micaiah wouldn't participate in a war in which neutrality was the best choice for Daein if she wasn't so blindly loyal. But when you say "but it doesn't", do you mean "But her heroic traits don't outweigh the bad stuff she's done"? Because that's what it seems like.

[BrightBow]

@BrightBow: Some parts of your second response didn't seem clear. I'm sure "that person" is Izuka, and "never follow such an order" likely means Micaiah wouldn't participate in a war in which neutrality was the best choice for Daein if she wasn't so blindly loyal. But when you say "but it doesn't", do you mean "But her heroic traits don't outweigh the bad stuff she's done"? Because that's what it seems like.

Sort of. It's essentially a part I started writing but then stopped it since I wasn't too sure how to phrase it and I figured it was redundant anyway. But apparently I confirmed the edit on accident.

I think what I was going to say was something like this: While she has heroic traits, in this competition she is up against people who have not only way more then her, but also manage to play the role of a hero throughout the whole story.

[Swordsalmon]

Most: Leaf

Least: Marth

[Rapier]

But this is specifically about an "heroic" Lord. It's not about whether or not she is a good person.

A hero does not allow that their friends get experimented on. And she definitely doesn't continue to work with that person.

She had no choice. She had less authority than Izuka, and Pelleas insisted that he stay.

And a hero would not participate in an unjust and unnecessary war. She would never follow such an order.

It's not unjust and unnecessary. Remember the situation the Blood Pact put them on. They would either go to war or lose everything they fought for years.

And a hero does not kill people by the thousands in an unprovoked attack.

Unprovoked but she had to do it, or else the Blood Pact's effect would happen.

And a hero does not sell her people into slavery, which is what she did when she stopped the Apostle's Army.

what

Well, I have nothing to say there. I think she didn't know what to do at that time and her desperation made Micaiah clash agaisnt the Apostle's Army since it's the only solution they could think about, but that's just me.

Micaiah killed 8000 Crimean soldiers in an ambush by setting the canyon they were passing ablaze. The ambush only succeeded, because they didn't expected her to do something this cowardly.

Cowardly? You see, the entire Crimean army was of 8000 soldiers. That's just the CRIMEAN army. Add the Laguz Army from Gallia, Phoenicis and Kilvas plus Greil Mercenaries and half of Begnion's Army that was with Sanaki (if not more) and you have much more soldiers than that. Agaisnt a single -country- that was desperate to save themselves from the Blood Pact and had much less soldiers.

I think the ambush was pretty much justified.

Also, she supported her king, even when his orders were far from morally sound. That's about as unheroic as it gets. Every hero who is faced with such a situation will refuse to carry out such an order.

I can remember a lot of heroes who follow their king's demands out of loyalty. I recall most only from videogames however (like Cecil).

Compared to all of that described, how many things do you see Lyn doing that isn't heroic in the slightest? The only instance of such I can recall is her swearing vengeance upon those who killed her family. That's it. Whether or not she's the center of focus, or whether or not you happen to like her, is irrelevant to how heroic she is.

Lyn is only special and heroic during Lyn's Mode. On Eliwood/Hector's mode, she's nothing more than a side character who only exists because the game said so.

Edited November 14, 2012 by Rapier

[BrightBow]

She had no choice. She had less authority than Izuka, and Pelleas insisted that he stay.

Of course she had. She is the most important figure of the Liberation Army. Merely a figurehead, sure. But as Jarod pointed out, if Micaiah dies, it would essentially end the rebellion. This gives her quite a bit of influence.

Remember, that's exactly how Pelleas' eventually was forced to spill the beans on the Blood Pact: Sothe was going to get Micaiah out of this mess.

Besides, she has a lot of influence on Pelleas anyway but she didn't even keep pushing the issue once Pelleas interfered.

It's not unjust and unnecessary. Remember the situation the Blood Pact put them on. They would either go to war or lose everything they fought for years.

That doesn't matter because she didn't know about it initally. Again, she could have easily probed Pelleas about this issue. But she was perfectly fine to lead the Daein army into this war despite not knowing why.

Unprovoked but she had to do it, or else the Blood Pact's effect would happen.

Heroes are usually quite good in finding a way out of such dilemmas.

Cowardly? You see, the entire Crimean army was of 8000 soldiers. That's just the CRIMEAN army. Add the Laguz Army from Gallia, Phoenicis and Kilvas plus Greil Mercenaries and half of Begnion's Army that was with Sanaki (if not more) and you have much more soldiers than that. Agaisnt a single -country- that was desperate to save themselves from the Blood Pact and had much less soldiers.

I would say, sneak attacking an opponent who went out of it's way to leave you alone, is pretty damn cowardly. Especially if it involves setting a whole canyon ablaze.

Come to think of it, she even went out of her way in trying to kill Sanaki, even though they merely intended to stop the armies progress. As far as being Lekain's lapdog goes, Micaiah is quite an overachiever,

Of course, this leads to the question whether chivalry matters in a war or not. As I said plenty of times by now, this threat is merely about heroism. And I would say, it usually matters for heroes.

I think the ambush was pretty much justified.

It's not like there weren't any ways around this issue. Ask Naesala. If Micaiah would have submitted to Sanaki like he did, then the senates authority would have been overruled.

Besides, letting the Empress pass would have been the only way to stop Lekain anyway.

I can remember a lot of heroes who follow their king's demands out of loyalty. I recall most only from videogames however (like Cecil).

And how many of them gave out unmoral orders like Pelleas'? And in how many of these cases did the hero eventually rebel against the king?

Regardless of this, the people in Fire Emblem who will follow their master's orders with no regards of their nature, are usually antagonists and villains: Camus, Ishtar, Reinhardt, Murdock, Gale, Bryce, Selena...

Call then honorable or whatever, but they are not heroes. The only thing that makes Micaiah different from those people, are her Lord privileges.

[Florete]

When was it said that the Crimean army had 8000 soldiers and that Micaiah's ambush killed all of them? I don't remember any of this. How did the CRKs avoid this fate?

[Anouleth]

Of course she had. She is the most important figure of the Liberation Army. Merely a figurehead, sure. But as Jarod pointed out, if Micaiah dies, it would essentially end the rebellion. This gives her quite a bit of influence.

I think Jarod was mistaken in his evaluation of Micaiah's importance. If she had died, she would have simply become a martyr. And the key events in the rebellion had already taken place by 1-9. Jarod had had all his authority in Daein rescinded by Begnion.

Real life historical events suggest that while special individuals can sometimes be the catalyst for great social changes, their death usually does nothing to prevent them. Joan of Arc's death did not prevent the other French from continuing to fight, and to win, the Hundred Year's War. Martin Luther King's death did not end the civil rights movement.

So I think Jarod was rather clutching at straws when he hoped that killing Micaiah would solve all his problems. And I suppose, he just wanted his vengeance upon the woman who had ruined him, even if he did not save himself in the process.

That doesn't matter because she didn't know about it initally. Again, she could have easily probed Pelleas about this issue. But she was perfectly fine to lead the Daein army into this war despite not knowing why.

Is that not natural? Did Ike not perform several actions for Sanaki in FE9 without knowing why? Does that make him less heroic, because he trusts Elincia not to ask of him any service that might do him dishonour? And why does it make Micaiah less heroic, because she trusts Pelleas the same way that Ike trusts Elincia?

Heroes are usually quite good in finding a way out of such dilemmas.

Heroism is also having the luck to never be in such a dilemma in the first place.

I would say, sneak attacking an opponent who went out of it's way to leave you alone, is pretty damn cowardly. Especially if it involves setting a whole canyon ablaze.

Regardless if whether the Apostle's Army went out of it's way to avoid attacking you (and they didn't, they could have gone straight for Begnion but they instead went through Daein), they are in sovereign Daein territory without permission, and therefore Pelleas has every right to do with them as he pleases. Just as Elincia was perfectly justified in destroying the Begnion troops that were on her territory against her will, so it was that Micaiah was justified in her defense of her nation's soil.

I don't know if I would call it cowardly, either. Surely, attacking a far stronger opponent who is not attacking you is bravery, not cowardice? Micaiah could have avoided conflict, and just gone home and done nothing, but instead she chose to stand and defend her nation, and whether you think that's heroic, it's definitely brave.

It's not like there weren't any ways around this issue. Ask Naesala. If Micaiah would have submitted to Sanaki like he did, then the senates authority would have been overruled.

It's implied that Micaiah's blood pact is written differently to Naesala's: Micaiah is forced to be loyal to the Begnion Senate specifically, while Naesala is forced to be loyal to Begnion (which makes a loophole, because Sanaki is the ruler of Begnion).

And how many of them gave out unmoral orders like Pelleas'? And in how many of these cases did the hero eventually rebel against the king?

The key word is "eventually", and in most of those cases, the actions they were being commanded to do were pretty much completely evil. The actions of Micaiah and co. are justifiable.

[NinjaMonkey]

When was it said that the Crimean army had 8000 soldiers and that Micaiah's ambush killed all of them? I don't remember any of this. How did the CRKs avoid this fate?

It could be that they are referring to the end of 3-12, she gave the order to set them all on fire.

Sanaki: What are they doing? What are they pouring down the cliff?

Sigrun: No! It's... It's oil! They're going to set us aflame!

Thing is, she didn't actually do it, due to Tibarn threatening to drop Sothe from a great height.

Edited November 15, 2012 by NinjaMonkey

[Rapier]

And how many of them gave out unmoral orders like Pelleas'? And in how many of these cases did the hero eventually rebel against the king?

Pelleas' case was different from other tyrants'. Micaiah learned about the Blood Pact later and understood his dilemma (later on, okay). Also, she mentioned earlier that she trusts him because she knows he feels the toll of being a ruler and understands it pretty well, or something like this. I'd get a quote from the script if there was one.

I would say, sneak attacking an opponent who went out of it's way to leave you alone, is pretty damn cowardly. Especially if it involves setting a whole canyon ablaze.

Considering she sent half of her army to die distracting Ike's army while her other portion dealt with the Apostle's Army, and knowing their entire army of over nine thousand soldiers would go after them if they failed, I'd say it's not as cowardly as you think. But mileages may vary, I agree.

Of course she had. She is the most important figure of the Liberation Army. Merely a figurehead, sure. But as Jarod pointed out, if Micaiah dies, it would essentially end the rebellion. This gives her quite a bit of influence.

She was a -figurehead- only, which means she did not have any major role in leading the entire army and making decisions that surpassed Pelleas and Izuka's authority. Remember the chapter where she had to take her group to save the citizens thrown in the swamps? It was pretty late on Part 1, she had as much 'authority' as you said, even so they left her alone with her own small group to deal with the issue.

Thing is, she didn't actually do it, due to Tibarn threatening to drop Sothe from a great height.

Actually...

Tanith

No! It's... It's oil! They're going to set us aflame!

Sigrun

Apostle, onto my pegasus! We'll take to the sky!

Tanith

We will protect the apostle from the archers by becoming her shield! Holy Guards, form up!

Sanaki

No! No, Sigrun! We cannot leave the others here! I will not allow it!

It's not mentioned if Micaiah succeeds in burning the canyon or not. They only mention she wasn't able to shoot down Sanaki before Tibarn threatened to drop Sothe, though I'm inclined onto believing the flames had been started before he showed up.

[BrightBow]

When was it said that the Crimean army had 8000 soldiers and that Micaiah's ambush killed all of them? I don't remember any of this. How did the CRKs avoid this fate?

Well, I did misremember the number. It were actually merely 5000. The number is stated in the extended script of 13-3.

Ike: Elincia... We've almost exhausted the 5000 soldiers we borrowed from Crimea... I'm sorry.

Though even outside the extended script it was mentioned that Micaiah killed them all.

From Chapter 12-3:

Soren: It's awful. The Begnion Central Army and the Crimean Royal Knights have almost been completely obliterated.

Yeah, they are all dead. Which is not helped by the fact that Ike only fought on the side of Laguz in the following fights.

I think Jarod was mistaken in his evaluation of Micaiah's importance. If she had died, she would have simply become a martyr. And the key events in the rebellion had already taken place by 1-9.

Nah, he is right at the money. He just doesn't understand the concept of martyrs.

The point is simply, that Micaiah is too important to ignore. And she can't become a martyr when she merely leaves the army in disapproval.

Is that not natural? Did Ike not perform several actions for Sanaki in FE9 without knowing why? Does that make him less heroic, because he trusts Elincia not to ask of him any service that might do him dishonour? And why does it make Micaiah less heroic, because she trusts Pelleas the same way that Ike trusts Elincia?

The difference is that Ike's orders weren't unmoral as far as he could see.

And when he was send after a bunch of former Laguz slaves, he stormed past Sigrun and demanded a explanation about the whole mess from Sanaki. And later he did the same thing, when he found out about the Serenes Massacre.

So I would say, if Elincia and Ike were in the situation of Pelleas' and Micaiah, you can bet he wouldn't have followed the orders without a pretty damn good explanation.

Heroism is also having the luck to never be in such a dilemma in the first place.

It definitely helps.

Regardless if whether the Apostle's Army went out of it's way to avoid attacking you (and they didn't, they could have gone straight for Begnion but they instead went through Daein), they are in sovereign Daein territory without permission, and therefore Pelleas has every right to do with them as he pleases. Just as Elincia was perfectly justified in destroying the Begnion troops that were on her territory against her will, so it was that Micaiah was justified in her defense of her nation's soil.

...ahm, Daein were the ones to start the conflict, remember? They showed up at the borders from Crimean and demanded they hand over the supposed fake Apostle under the threat of force while ignoring any requests for negotiations.

And sure, Pelleas' can do what he wants with an army entering it's territory.

Ike could also have gone up to Nevassa to burn the whole place down for threatening Crimea again.

But Ike tries to avoid bloodshed whenever possible because... well, because he is an actual hero.

I don't know if I would call it cowardly, either. Surely, attacking a far stronger opponent who is not attacking you is bravery, not cowardice? Micaiah could have avoided conflict, and just gone home and done nothing, but instead she chose to stand and defend her nation, and whether you think that's heroic, it's definitely brave.

Okay, fine.

It's implied that Micaiah's blood pact is written differently to Naesala's: Micaiah is forced to be loyal to the Begnion Senate specifically, while Naesala is forced to be loyal to Begnion (which makes a loophole, because Sanaki is the ruler of Begnion).

It's only mentioned that killing Lekain won't undo the curse for Kilvas but we don't know why.

The key word is "eventually", and in most of those cases, the actions they were being commanded to do were pretty much completely evil. The actions of Micaiah and co. are justifiable.

Justifiable? Maybe.

Heroic? Hell no.

She was a -figurehead- only, which means she did not have any major role in leading the entire army and making decisions that surpassed Pelleas and Izuka's authority. Remember the chapter where she had to take her group to save the citizens thrown in the swamps? It was pretty late on Part 1, she had as much 'authority' as you said, even so they left her alone with her own small group to deal with the issue.

The thing with Muraim was late in Part 1. Her popularity went through the roof after saving the people in the swamp.

They couldn't afford to loose her for that reason alone.

And this isn't even taking into account her own influence on Pelleas' and the fact that she has God on speed dial.

Again, Ike jumped Sanaki several times, despite having literally nothing to back himself up. Micaiah just has no backbone when it comes to Pelleas.

Pelleas' case was different from other tyrants'. Micaiah learned about the Blood Pact later and understood his dilemma (later on, okay). Also, she mentioned earlier that she trusts him because she knows he feels the toll of being a ruler and understands it pretty well, or something like this. I'd get a quote from the script if there was one.

With her level of information she should still have opposed Pellea'. Just because she can sense that Pelleas' was acting for the good of Daein, doesn't mean he knows what he's doing. That would have been her responsibility as his trusted advisor anyway.

Since Micaiah isn't stupid and more levelheaded, she immediately had a few ideas how to deal with the situation.

But at that point, they didn't had much time anymore.

If she would have pressured Pelleas' immediately, they would have had way more time on their hands to find a solution.

And we know for a fact that Micaiah could have pressured Pelleas' into submission because Sothe did just that.

He simply threatening to leave with Micaiah and then he talked.

Edited November 15, 2012 by BrightBow

[Baldrick]

I don't know if I would call it cowardly, either. Surely, attacking a far stronger opponent who is not attacking you is bravery, not cowardice? Micaiah could have avoided conflict, and just gone home and done nothing, but instead she chose to stand and defend her nation, and whether you think that's heroic, it's definitely brave.

It's not bravery, she didn't even attempt to engage the Apostle's army in a fair fight, because she knew they'd never win. Her pragmatic style was necessary in order to avoid either being routed or pissing off the Senate, but it was about as far as you can get from a heroic act.

[healthylunch]

Well, I did misremember the number. It were actually merely 5000. The number is stated in the extended script of 13-3.

Forgive my noobiness, (this is my first post after all) but what's the extended script?

In any case...

Most: Hector, he cleaves people with axes that must be twice his size, that's preetty damn heroic.

Least: Roy, he's just a bit bland really methinks.

[BrightBow]

Forgive my noobiness, (this is my first post after all) but what's the extended script?

In any case...

Most: Hector, he cleaves people with axes that must be twice his size, that's preetty damn heroic.

Least: Roy, he's just a bit bland really methinks.

There are two versions of the script. The longer one is only used in Hard Mode and Maniac Mode.

And only the shorter version of the script was localized. So we have the same abridged script in all three difficulties.

There are translations of the extended script of a few chapters on this site.

Edited November 15, 2012 by BrightBow

[Anouleth]

The difference is that Ike's orders weren't unmoral as far as he could see.

And when he was send after a bunch of former Laguz slaves, he stormed past Sigrun and demanded a explanation about the whole mess from Sanaki. And later he did the same thing, when he found out about the Serenes Massacre.

So I would say, if Elincia and Ike were in the situation of Pelleas' and Micaiah, you can bet he wouldn't have followed the orders without a pretty damn good explanation.

I think he would, and I don't think that being mistrustful is a good mark of a hero.

...ahm, Daein were the ones to start the conflict, remember? They showed up at the borders from Crimean and demanded they hand over the supposed fake Apostle under the threat of force while ignoring any requests for negotiations.

And that doesn't mean you have to invade them.

And sure, Pelleas' can do what he wants with an army entering it's territory.

Ike could also have gone up to Nevassa to burn the whole place down for threatening Crimea again.

But Ike tries to avoid bloodshed whenever possible because... well, because he is an actual hero.

Ike does not try to avoid bloodshed whenever possible. He's a MERCENARY. And a pretty damn violent one, at that. He went to war just because Ranulf asked him.

It's only mentioned that killing Lekain won't undo the curse for Kilvas but we don't know why.

Because Lekain didn't sign the pact. The pact was signed by Naesala's father: who presumably lived many dozens of years ago. The senator that signed Naesala's pact is probably dead, just of old age.

Justifiable? Maybe.

Heroic? Hell no.

So how comes Marth can do something evil and unjustifiable in the service of an evil king, and he can still be a hero, but when Micaiah does something that's perfectly justifiable in the service of a good king, she is not a hero?

Again, Ike jumped Sanaki several times, despite having literally nothing to back himself up. Micaiah just has no backbone when it comes to Pelleas.

But it was actually a huge mistake for Ike to jump Sanaki. In fact, it's only because he's such an amazing gary stu that he got away with it.

It's not bravery, she didn't even attempt to engage the Apostle's army in a fair fight, because she knew they'd never win. Her pragmatic style was necessary in order to avoid either being routed or pissing off the Senate, but it was about as far as you can get from a heroic act.

And often, Ike does not engage in a fair, straight fight either. For example, in 3-P, he attacks under cover of darkness, through a side door, against an enemy that had no warning. In 3-1, he even uses disguises to get behind the enemy walls. In 3-3, he attacks the enemy's supply lines instead of fighting on the front line. It's mentioned several times that if Ike and the Laguz Alliance had tried to engage Begnion in a straight fight, they would have lost.

Edited November 15, 2012 by Anouleth

[BrightBow]

I think he would, and I don't think that being mistrustful is a good mark of a hero.

What gives you the idea that Ike is mistrustful? He is very trusting.

But that doesn't mean, he has to rationalize anything like Micaiah. When he has reason to believe that something is wrong he demands an explanation.

And that doesn't mean you have to invade them.

Considering that Daein already threated with violence and rejected any requests to negotiate, they could hardly ignore them. And it's not like they actually invaded them anyway.

Ike does not try to avoid bloodshed whenever possible. He's a MERCENARY. And a pretty damn violent one, at that. He went to war just because Ranulf asked him.

Bloodshed is his job, sure. But that doesn't mean that he starts fights that could be avoided otherwise. He just won't hold back when the fighting starts.

Honestly, even after Micaiah wiped out the Begnion and the Crimean army, he begged her to stop the fighting and to allow him to help out.

Though, he was way to eager to burn down the diplomatic bridge to Begnion. I grant that.

Because Lekain didn't sign the pact. The pact was signed by Naesala's father: who presumably lived many dozens of years ago. The senator that signed Naesala's pact is probably dead, just of old age.

Great. So we are on the same page now, that there is nothing in the game that implies that there are functionally differences between Naesala's and Pelleas' blood pact like you previously claimed.

So how comes Marth can do something evil and unjustifiable in the service of an evil king, and he can still be a hero, but when Micaiah does something that's perfectly justifiable in the service of a good king, she is not a hero?

Evil things like what, exactly? You mean when he worked for Lang?

He fought against Lawrence army, believing them to be rebels. Once Lang's true colors became apparent, he only followed Lang's orders afterwards because the rebels in Macedonia were evil anyway. And he already worked against Lang by trying to secure the help of his old allies.

Then he immediately told Lang to suck it and went to retrieve the siblings he abducted.

But it was actually a huge mistake for Ike to jump Sanaki. In fact, it's only because he's such an amazing gary stu that he got away with it.

Sure, but Micaiah doesn't have this concerns. Pelleas' is no threat to her and yet she still keeps quite.

Edited November 15, 2012 by BrightBow

[Florete]

Well, I did misremember the number. It were actually merely 5000. The number is stated in the extended script of 13-3.

Ike: Elincia... We've almost exhausted the 5000 soldiers we borrowed from Crimea... I'm sorry.

Though even outside the extended script it was mentioned that Micaiah killed them all.

From Chapter 12-3:

Soren: It's awful. The Begnion Central Army and the Crimean Royal Knights have almost been completely obliterated.

Yeah, they are all dead. Which is not helped by the fact that Ike only fought on the side of Laguz in the following fights.

Where is it said that the one ambush killed them all, though? I mean, they were fighting a war. People die.