FE9 0% growths LTC

[XeKr]

Re: Tauroneo. Yeah, I thought about Tauroneo a lot when theorycrafting a 0% Maniac run (not LTC). The issue I saw with HM LTC, as you noted, is getting Resolve to activate. It's particularly hard to activate on player phase, since a enemy boss counter won't trigger it unless you were already going to double. Therefore instead of something like dropping bosskiller and Ike in walking range of 6 tiles, then killing with ferrying/canto units and bosskiller plus seizing next turn, you have to drop/Rescue Tauroneo right next to the boss so he counters enemy phase with Resolve. That takes more move to do and has less room for Canto. It might take an extra turn or more. It might still work out if you ferry Reyson and can protect both him and Ike from enemies near the boss. It kinda sucks there's no high mag Staff user you can ferry.I suppose you could look into Seal + Dust Rhys with like 15/17 Mag.

In addition, Tauroneo's high durability makes it hard for Resolve to activate sometime earlier during the chapter. If he's purely ferried, he's not getting attacked. If he gets Rescue-Take-Dropped throughout the chapter, he's still not prioritized by the enemy compared to the others because of his Hp/Def. I think it'll be hard to manipulate the AI to chip him down. Maybe if he's unequipped or something?

Stefan isn't that reliable, but is still ~60% Astra/Crit or ~72% Adept/Crit on Bertram for example. I think he 3hkos with a Drop. Runesword is a problem ofc. Getting Tauroneo to be hit by the correct number of attacks might be similarly luck based. PoR is annoying with the animations, so maybe you'll want to take an extra turn and bring more boss chippers for a ~100% success.

Re: Gromell. It shouldn't be that hard, Tanith does 16x2 and doesn't trigger Resolve until after both attacks. You have forged Wind/Bows too, plus a lenient time span to rout everything else. Efficiently routing everything else is quite the puzzle.

Re: Boots. I only think Boots on Reyson is good if you think you need multiple bosskillers to chip them down. Otherwise, probably Tanith. Generally I'd say for more reliability, Reyson adds tons of flexibility. For the lowest turn count, +2 move on a flier is significant so you can move Ike/bosskiller/Rescue Staff user faster. I think it depends on what's your first priority this run, turn counts or reliability.

I guess we'll see when you get there. Just save resources until you're sure they save turn(s). >_>

[Chiki]

For chapter 25 I'd just dump Resolve Tauroneo north and RNG abuse till I got a respectable turn count. Shouldn't he be able to take Gromell?

[Espinosa]

I'm trying to come up with moderately reliable strats for low turns and if something I invent doesn't realistically work after a few attempts I just drop it and move on to complete the chapter more reliably. One example is trying to get the Talisman in 7 turns in chapter 9. Would've been pretty easy if I could control Lethe and Mordecai, but even with everyone but Titania going to the beach (including Ike and Oscar for like 2 turns to help out), I can't keep everyone alive because the enemies on the beach are too strong and chipping at them only works for so long. Titania also has trouble soloing the area near the boss, both in terms of survival and the enemies leaving space for their comrades to suicide unto Titania. So if I set any unrealistic goals, I move on to something that actually works instead.

Enjoying the discussion in this thread. Boots on Reyson will probably make the run more fun as a lot of options will be enabled and Reyson will make far better use of the Laguz Stones available. Same with the Knight Ring. I've never actually had a reason to try this but I'm imagining, say, Tauroneo, Stefan, Largo and Ranulf chipping at a boss, moving out and exchanging the Knight Ring and forming a diamond pattern so that all four of them can do it again after being refreshed by transformed Reyson. Even if I never get a chance to pull something like that off, it sounds pretty damn rad when I try to imagine it.

Gromell might not be the biggest issue on that rout map indeed; don't think forging Wind is a good idea as it's too expensive for still being rather week. Even Blizzard from Bastian/Calill should deal more damage without having to lure him with that Bolt Axe that he can swing around and double people with in Resolve range (I think somebody like Largo is 2HKO'd).

@ XeKr

Do you think a 0% growths run on JP Maniac is even possible? I guess one thing that's certain is that turns wouldn't look nice on that one.

Also, chapter 6 is completed in 4 turns.

No turns lost compared to a run with growths, but it does require the Speedwings on Titania (and is the only turn this choice actually saves) as well as Gatrie giving his Steel Lance to Oscar (which makes Gatrie routing the two Knights attacking him in the next chapter a royal pain in the arse).

[Lord Raven]

Efficiently routing everything else is quite the puzzle.

Rescue Tibarn?

[Espinosa]

Rescue Tibarn?

That's a different map, I think.

[Lord Raven]

Oh f, no wonder you brought up routing. Sonic Sword is pretty effective against him even if you have low magic.

[XeKr]

Gromell might not be the biggest issue on that rout map indeed; don't think forging Wind is a good idea as it's too expensive for still being rather week. Even Blizzard from Bastian/Calill should deal more damage without having to lure him with that Bolt Axe that he can swing around and double people with in Resolve range (I think somebody like Largo is 2HKO'd).

@ XeKr

Do you think a 0% growths run on JP Maniac is even possible? I guess one thing that's certain is that turns wouldn't look nice on that one.

Chipping with Siege might be a issue if you don't oneturn him and he gets healed up or you need the Siege tomes elsewhere. A combo with someone and Sonic Sword Tanith is likely your best bet.

C25 is the mountain and last Rout chapter. LTC usually involves some super strong and durable unit up top. In 0% it's probably Tauroneo, or some Vantage/Wrath or Adept unit. You have stuff like Resolve!Ena for C28, so it shouldn't that bad.

With forge glitch, you might even be able to get a decent turn count in 0% growth Maniac. Without, you definitely have to turtle. Every enemy is stronger than the bosses in the chapters and there are tons.

Edited February 3, 2013 by XeKr

[bottlegnomes]

SS Tanith and brave axe/lance Haar would probably be able to take out Gromell without too much trouble.

Also, I was thinking about Petrine. If you attack her with brave sword Tauroneo, he'll do 16 damage to her, putting her at 27, hopefull as his hit will be a bit low at 69 displayed. She'll do 28 damage putting him in resolve range, but not low enough for her to OHKO him. Then she'd heal up to 31 and attack. Tauroneo would double for 19 a hit with 88 displayed hit, finishing her off before she could kill him. It'd take an extra turn, but I can't think of anything that's much more reliable for killing her.

Bertram's probably going to be the most difficult because of that fucking runesword and having really high defense and health.

[Espinosa]

I wonder if I can get Bertram to equip his Spear instead of Runesword. You can't just force it by dropping Bastian/Calill in his range because he doubles those, but something like Lucia with Pure Water should do the trick. Or just drop Speedwings!Stefan in his range and finish him off with a brave weapon on player phase. He's surprisingly accurate with the Runesword so you can't really expect it to miss on a high speed/luck lance unit like Tanith (who'll just hit him once for 11 damage with a forged Silver anyway).

[XeKr]

Oh lol I'm been half looking at NM boss stats some of the time.

If you're going to rely on that kind of luck against Petrine, you might as well go with Stefan who can do 16x2, 100 hit, 28 crit, 27% Adept (~72% success overall) with Forged Silver. It saves a turn too.

Really Petrine isn't that hard with Speedwings!Stefan and other units chipping. You just need to watch for Crits and Pure Water/Ward can help with that.

If you're close enough to Bertram to drop or Rescue Staff directly in his range, it's not that hard. If he attacks Tauroneo into Resolve range, you get 4 Resolve+Brave attacks before he gets a chance to heal which is more than enough.

Normally, Brave Sword against Bertram runs into the low str problem. Base Stefan with Speedwings does 3x4. >_>

Edited February 3, 2013 by XeKr

[bottlegnomes]

I wonder if I can get Bertram to equip his Spear instead of Runesword. You can't just force it by dropping Bastian/Calill in his range because he doubles those, but something like Lucia with Pure Water should do the trick. Or just drop Speedwings!Stefan in his range and finish him off with a brave weapon on player phase. He's surprisingly accurate with the Runesword so you can't really expect it to miss on a high speed/luck lance unit like Tanith (who'll just hit him once for 11 damage with a forged Silver anyway).

That wouldn't be a bad idea. Then, between Tanith, Haar, Geoff, Tauroneo, Largo, and any other potential chippers, you should be able to finish him off before he can reequip the runesword.

If you're going to rely on that kind of luck against Petrine, you might as well go with Stefan who can do 16x2, 100 hit, 28 crit, 27% Adept (~72% success overall) with Forged Silver. It saves a turn too.

Really Petrine isn't that hard with Speedwings!Stefan and other units chipping. You just need to watch for Crits and Pure Water/Ward can help with that.

Where'd you get 16x2? Stefan has 19 strength, a silver sword forge has 18 mt, and Petrine has 23 defense. 19+18=37-23=14. So a single adept wouldn't kill her, but it would put her at 1 health, so basically the same situation Tauroneo is in if he misses one of his non-resolve attacks (pathetically easy to finish), just saving a turn.

Problem is, Resolve!Ena won't be able to double Berserk Ashnard then. And you'd need to forge a max mt, +20 hit silver sword which would cost around 9,000 gold. Granted, FE9 gives you a shitton of money, but that's 3000 extra gold for something that would only ever be useful once (by which I mean the extra hit, not the sword itself).

Tauroneo only needs to land one of the first hits and have someone do all of 1 damage to be able to finish her. Also, 69 displayed is 81 true and 88 displayed is 97 true, so it's not nearly as chancy as it looks. Doing the math, Tauroneo also has about a 60% chance of killing her, though over two rounds.

Basically, it comes down to is the speedwing on a character who otherwise doesn't need it and a forged silver with a bunch of extra hit worth saving 1 turn?

If you're close enough to Bertram to drop or Rescue Staff directly in his range, it's not that hard. If he attacks Tauroneo into Resolve range, you get 4 Resolve+Brave attacks before he gets a chance to heal which is more than enough.

Normally, Brave Sword against Bertram runs into the low str problem. Base Stefan with Speedwings does 3x4. >_>

Bertram doesn't do enough damage to Tauroneo to put him below half health with one hit, so Tauroneo would do 16 damage (with brave lance) and Bertram would do 40, 20 of which would completely negate Tauroneo's damage. Then you'd be left with 8 health Tauroneo doing 38 damage against a full health Bertram who does 20 damage a hit with 73 hit (85 true).

Now if you got Tauroneo down to 39 health before he fought Bertram, you could do this, but that might be a bit tricky.

Also, thinking about it, Ranulf might actually be decent. He won't have range ever, obviously, but he'll have 30 attack and 19 AS with the demi band and 33 and 20 normally. Those would put him about on par with Geoff with a silver lance.

Edited February 3, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[dondon151]

oh hello, best of luck, hope that you can endure the resets and the map animations

I really can't be sure until I do said chapters with those restrictions though, because bosskilling is a lot about context and not just raw numbers.

on the contrary, bosskilling is all about raw numbers from my personal experience.

[Lord Raven]

personal experience means nothing

[dondon151]

right because having done exactly that on every game that i've done a 0% run on means nothing =P

[Margaretthefun]

right because having done exactly that on every game that i've done a 0% run on means nothing =P

Vanguard james

[XeKr]

Where'd you get 16x2? Stefan has 19 strength, a silver sword forge has 18 mt, and Petrine has 23 defense. 19+18=37-23=14. So a single adept wouldn't kill her, but it would put her at 1 health, so basically the same situation Tauroneo is in if he misses one of his non-resolve attacks (pathetically easy to finish), just saving a turn.

Problem is, Resolve!Ena won't be able to double Berserk Ashnard then. And you'd need to forge a max mt, +20 hit silver sword which would cost around 9,000 gold. Granted, FE9 gives you a shitton of money, but that's 3000 extra gold for something that would only ever be useful once (by which I mean the extra hit, not the sword itself).

Tauroneo only needs to land one of the first hits and have someone do all of 1 damage to be able to finish her. Also, 69 displayed is 81 true and 88 displayed is 97 true, so it's not nearly as chancy as it looks. Doing the math, Tauroneo also has about a 60% chance of killing her, though over two rounds.

Basically, it comes down to is the speedwing on a character who otherwise doesn't need it and a forged silver with a bunch of extra hit worth saving 1 turn?

Energy Drop on Stefan for the 3hko on Petrine as well as 4hko on Bertram. But really he doesn't even need it because you can always use Siege chip or the ferrying canto units to chip on the turn you seize.

Money isn't an issue in lategame PoR. You get >100,000. iirc, I literally forged Max Mt and some Hit/Crit things every chapter and didn't use them all up. I also routed everything in my MM run (~1400 enemies) which is way more battles than you fight in HM as well as LTC. These forged Silvers are just for bosskills. Btw I assumed max Crit too. >_>

If the wing on Titania only saves 1 turn, or Ena's speedwings only save 1 turn, Stefan can take it. It's 1 (or more) turns here or there. If Stefan saves multiple turns from these bosskills, then he should get the wings.

If you're willing to take an extra turn for Tauroneo or any unit to enemy phase counter the boss, it's fairly trivial for a ~100% clear since you have another extra enemy phase and player phase to bring more units up and chip. As well as another turn of Tauroneo's Resolve/Brave attack. These are seize maps after all, not defeat boss maps.

Now if you got Tauroneo down to 39 health before he fought Bertram, you could do this, but that might be a bit tricky.

Right. It's alot easier to get Tauroneo somewhere between 21-39 hp during the chapter. That's fairly lenient. If you want to save a turn, you have to plan like exactly between 21-24 hp, and not let Bertram counter meaning chipping him enough with Siege (like 11 damage).

Now, as a Speedwing has already been used on Titania, it's probably better to plan on Tauroneo for the bosskills for now. It's clearly possible from this theorycrafting I think. At worst you lose a turn or 2 and have much more reliable clears.

And I agree with the idea that you should plan strats around what the numbers require.

[Chiki]

How about Astra on Stefan?

[XeKr]

Lower activation. I just mentioned Adept there b/c of the 3hko on Petrine. As well as possible Vantage/Adept shenanigans for rout chapters.

It doesn't matter too much overall. Either Speedwing!Stefan gives a 60-70% kill or you have enough chippers for a 100% kill or you take another turn for a 100% kill. Or you figure something else out. <_<

[Chiki]

So what if it's like 10% lower as long as it cuts turns?

[bottlegnomes]

Energy Drop on Stefan for the 3hko on Petrine as well as 4hko on Bertram. But really he doesn't even need it because you can always use Siege chip or the ferrying canto units to chip on the turn you seize.

Giving Stefan a forge, adept, a wing, and a drop seems like an awful lot for one turn. It's not like Petrine's Ashnard where that's really your only option.

Money isn't an issue in lategame PoR. You get >100,000. iirc, I literally forged Max Mt and some Hit/Crit things every chapter and didn't use them all up. I also routed everything in my MM run (~1400 enemies) which is way more battles than you fight in HM as well as LTC. These forged Silvers are just for bosskills. Btw I assumed max Crit too. >_>

Is it that much? I knew it was a lot, but I didn't realize it was that much. I just remember on my last PT I forged something pretty much every chapter, in addition to buying a ton of physics, and I was running low later on. Then again, I promoted Volke for the hell of it, so that cuts 50K.

If the wing on Titania only saves 1 turn, or Ena's speedwings only save 1 turn, Stefan can take it. It's 1 (or more) turns here or there. If Stefan saves multiple turns from these bosskills, then he should get the wings.

I'd need to look into Ena, to see how many turns it'd save, but yeah, I'm not completely opposed to it; I'm just not sure it's the best option.

If you're willing to take an extra turn for Tauroneo or any unit to enemy phase counter the boss, it's fairly trivial for a ~100% clear since you have another extra enemy phase and player phase to bring more units up and chip. As well as another turn of Tauroneo's Resolve/Brave attack. These are seize maps after all, not defeat boss maps.

True.

Right. It's alot easier to get Tauroneo somewhere between 21-39 hp during the chapter. That's fairly lenient. If you want to save a turn, you have to plan like exactly between 21-24 hp, and not let Bertram counter meaning chipping him enough with Siege (like 11 damage).

That wouldn't be too hard. Calill with meteor does 11 damage, which is exactly enough for resolve Tauroneo to 2 hit him with the brave lance.

Now, as a Speedwing has already been used on Titania, it's probably better to plan on Tauroneo for the bosskills for now. It's clearly possible from this theorycrafting I think. At worst you lose a turn or 2 and have much more reliable clears.

Agreed. I'd have to look into it more than I'm willing to right now to say anything more.

Also, I'd agree with Aine, or Olwen now, that keeping astra on Stefan would probably be a better idea. It'd leave adept for Ena, or someone else, and save an energy drop for a 60% chance of speedwing Stefan ORKOing Petrine versus a 70% chance.

Edited February 4, 2013 by bottlegnomes

[Espinosa]

Chapter 7 in 5 turns

1 HP Titania vs the world + some other silly gimmicks that absolutely needed to be done to 5-turn the map while getting the Ward chest.

First turn lost to Aeine... The gap should begin increasing substantially beginning with chapter 9.

on the contrary, bosskilling is all about raw numbers from my personal experience.

The bosskilling itself is all about the numbers, but is determined by other factors is what I meant. Is the bosskiller healthy enough to begin attacking? Or in Tauroneo's case which we've been discussing a lot, unhealthy enough. Are other units present and ready to chip in? Transformed Reyson being in range also makes a world of difference, in an unlikely perfect world scenario giving you, like, 8 attempts to engage the boss on the same turn (more with extra mounted units who Canto away, or even anybody with Knight Ring). Getting to the boss is icing on the cake, determined by how you do in the rest of the chapter (where you could slow down and lose turns).

Also, we've been arguing about Stefan having dibs on all the good resources (Energy Ring is Ena's property most definitely in my book, Wrath probably too, and Adept kinda arguable) but it seems to me that the midgame chapters are nowhere easy to low-turn either. Chapter 12 is completely different in that Marcia is doubled by many of the Raven Laguz even when promoted and barely 2HKOs them. I begin to wonder if giving Titania the Speedwings is going to cost me more turns in this chapter (of course, outside of this map Marcia makes pretty poor use of it in scrub combat). It seems like I may be whipping out Dracoshield and Seraph Robe for Marcia anyway, as her and Jill are the only ones reaching the more distant Ravens.

Then there's chapter 14 with that 50 crit Zerker. Giving Speedwings to promoted Zihark would have enabled him to double with good Adept and crit chances, especially with the Killing Edge (or a forged Steel). Reliability is a non-existent criterion when talking about him. We could chip in with others, but attacking at 1-range is risking death for sure.

Chapter 15 is the desert chapter, and nobody can double Muarim, Speedwings or not. Still thinking how to go about that one. Jill with forged Steel Lance, Fire forge on a mage (possibly promoted due to the movement difference being important enough to possibly shave off a turn) and Zihark with Laguzslayer are all likely solutions, perhaps a mixture of all of them. Promoted Jill needs a defensive stat booster to survive a round combat against Muarim without the Laguzguard (which could ensure Sothe's safety while finding desert items or something). Carrying Stefan after recruitment probably trivialises the map but probably takes like 5 turns.

I've also been considering giving Paladin!Kieran bows for like 25 damage per shot to Ravens with forged Iron. Probably not worth it, especially seeing how well he killed stuff in chapter 11 with lances.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Espinosa

[Chiki]

Can you do a rescue drop chain on Chapter 15 the turn you get Stefan? Have Marcia rescue Stefan after Lethe waits and Canto away, then have Jill take him and Canto away, then have someone like Mordecai take him and drop him in front of Muarim on the same turn.

If Jill and Marcia don't have enough move you can play around with promoting them and shoving Stefan. The only obstacle I can think of are the enemies.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Olwen

[XeKr]

Steel is forgeable by C14, so you could Steel Bow chip him with Kieran/Astrid or something (Needs Arms Scroll?). I think Mordecai can take a crit if he transforms in time. The boss moves which can give you an extra counter.

I don't particularly think Stefan is the best use of those resources. I'm just throwing out ideas for what's possible.

Generally I find planning backwards works better since you know what resources you need to save for the long term. That's the main reason I mentioned some of the later bosses first.

Edited February 4, 2013 by XeKr

[Espinosa]

I guess backwards planning is what I've been doing, since I started with thinking what resources Ena would need and then go from there. I've just reached the midgame portion of the game though, and it looks like more turns could potentially be saved/lost than I'd expected. The desert chapter is one such map, but chapter 12 being the Raven rout is even more challenging.

I've considered rescuedropping Stefan on the desert map (I guess Lethe could try finding the White Gem alone); we'll see what I'll end up doing. If forging a Fire tome alongside some Steel stuff (there's also the anti-Laguz effective weapons) is what I need to shave off a turn, then Stefan won't be contributing in that chapter's bosskill yet. I need to be there with my characters to know for sure; just going by memory or even looking at a map isn't enough.

Right now I'm getting pissed at the pain in the arse that is chapter 12. According to the sticky Vykan compiled, two Raven reinforcements (one with a Seraph Robe) appear on turn 6, and I actually managed to develop a very unreliable strat in which promoted Zihark is dropped with Laguzslayer next to the boss on turn 5 (Marcia moving out of the boss's range after the drop), and if Zihark procs either Adept or a crit (he cleanly 2HKOs the boss promoted) and promoted Marcia, 3HKOing the reinforcement from turn 3, finishes off the last Raven (whom she needs to start attacking on turn 4 as she's not doubling anything with 12 AS). The last Raven also hesitates to charge at Marcia sometimes (might have something to do with positioning) and goes west after Jill, in which case I'd need a Killer Lance crit, probably from Titania, to end the map in 5 turns in addition to Zihark getting lucky with the boss.

However, it seems that the two other reinforcements actually appear on turn 5, and not only do they make my carefully planned 5-turn impossible, they make a 6-turn clear unlikely (the northeastern Raven can't attack the ship until turn 7).

Currently looking at the map, brainstorming and trying to think what else can be done there. Thinking if dropping Ike on an island south from the ship to recruit Jill prematurely on turn 3 (I think) could help in any way, and maybe I could also promote Nephenee (this would mean leaving Zihark/Marcia unpromoted as I don't have enough Seals for everyone) and drop her on an island with an Iron Lance forge to trigger Wrath (she'd need to be attacked beforehand too) against the southern reinforcement. This is tough haha. Might have to redo chapter 11 without BEXPing Kieran to promotion in order to promote 3 other units just for chapter 12 alone. Difficult to measure how many turns are at stake here exactly.

[Chiki]

I'd definitely go for the 5 turn, offering a reliable 7 turn clear.

And a turn is more valuable than the White Gem.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Olwen