Oshimos Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Valks definitely aren't better than Falcos, but they're still better than low tier. Staves+Tomes+Movement is just too good, especially when they're below Taguels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnyxRayquaza Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Yeah, but having both Lifetaker+Sol isn't bad either. We are under the assumption that no reclassing has been done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Astra is a Skl/2% chance of a free kill. Lethality is a Skl/4% chance of a free kill. Not much of a contest here. Griffin Riders don't need help. They have 10 Move and mono-axes; Wyvern Lords have 8 Move and mono-axes because secondary weapons don't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PuffPuff Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 We are under the assumption that no reclassing has been done. Without reclassing then Hero would be better than Dark Rider. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randa Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Since I'm sick of reading about assassins at this point lets weigh them against sword masters. Is pass+ 12% activation rate >or = +5 strength always because of sword locked + 25%activation rate. I don't think bows make a big enough impact to be weighed against 1-2 range Amatsu till we get Rangell. Honestly just looking at it sword masters have a pretty big lead. Now if we think at stats instead of skills the speed is the same and assassin wins in everything else. So the question to be asked is: Is a better skill set worth more than slightly better stats. I think so but that's just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Bows can easily orko every flier with not nearly as big a risk that swordmasters have. Swordmasters have to rely on a legendary weapon just to have decent two range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Lavos Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Without reclassing then Hero would be better than Dark Rider. How so? Magic is more useful than axes(Especially considering Wind Magic bonuses against fliers), and Dark Knights has better movement. Are Axebreaker and Sol really good enough to beat +2 Move and magic? Since I'm sick of reading about assassins at this point lets weigh them against sword masters. Is pass+ 12% activation rate >or = +5 strength always because of sword locked + 25%activation rate. I don't think bows make a big enough impact to be weighed against 1-2 range Amatsu till we get Rangell. Honestly just looking at it sword masters have a pretty big lead. Now if we think at stats instead of skills the speed is the same and assassin wins in everything else. So the question to be asked is: Is a better skill set worth more than slightly better stats. I think so but that's just me. Agree with everything here but the bold. With the army of fliers you fight past chapter 20 bows are far more useful than Amatsu lategame. Not to mention Bows can be used immediately after promotion as opposed to having to wait all the way until chapter 18 to get the Amatsu, and even when you get it you only have 30 uses, you can't forge it, and it has less accuracy than every bow in the game(which honestly isn't that big of a deal with SM and Assassin's crazy skill, but notable for comparison) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randa Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 I don't think a lot of people will agree with me about that. The point I was trying to make is that there is an alternative that makes assassins less valuable. Somewhere around mid tier should work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Hero > Great Lord % based offense oriented skills (Astra/Lethality/Luna/Aether) are generally a waste because Pair Up is basically 75% Adept anyway, if you can't ORKO with an average of 3 attacks per combat you have problems. This means that Aether is best used against tanky bosses or for the heal, but Sol's proc rate is twice as good, and Axebreaker is much much better than Rightful King. Axes are also better weapons than Lances, since it gives you Hammers which are great against the few generics that you might not 3HKO (Generals/GKs). The real best skills of Great Lord imo are the ones you get from Lord. Additionally, Lethality doesn't even work against half the bosses that you REALLY want it against (Validar and Grima) because they're immune, which makes it even worse. Meanwhile, Swordmaster has better durability and the 1 Str advantage Assassin has is more than canceled out by Swordfaire. Pass is nice but Assassin is just so squishy that you can't really take advantage of it to run behind enemy lines. Dark Flier is iffy. You explode to Bows/Wind and have no durability boosting skills (Rally Move is shit). However, when Galeforce is good, it's the best skill in the game, and it's good quite often. Berserker > Warrior Berserker's Strength is so high that you can just run around with a Hand Axe and OHKO Lunatic Sages (my Vaike does 48 damage to 51HP with Pair Up + Rally Spectrum after reclassing to Hero, which loses 5 Str) I don't really like Paladin or GK that much, although I've never used a GK up to get Dual Guard+, which would probably be very helpful, and their pair up boosts are nice. Wyvern Lord is way way better. You get a ton of Avoid (Tantivy, Quickburn, and Swordbreaker) and a ton of Attack/Defense. They're weak to Bows/Wind, but so is Dark Flier so you obviously don't think that's a big deal. Valkyrie is a great pair up class for magic users: Magic, Speed, and Dual Support+ are very useful. And if not paired, you get a healer. General is iffy, they're extremely slow so you absolutely need a +Spd pair to double things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 While I agree with Berserker > Warrior (Spd yay), I'm a bit confused by your example... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Magic users are the only people that threaten my Vaike since he has like 40 Defense and 10 Resistance Edit: Also to demonstrate just how much attack you have. There's no point in Bows when you 2HKO fliers with a 3 might weapon Edited February 25, 2013 by Paperblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Constable Reggie Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) I disagree with Berserker > Warrior. Wrath is basically useless, while Counter has it's niche uses. Rally Strength blows Axefaire out of the water, though, since both classes are probably going to be 2hkoing everything anyway even without axefaire, though I'm not too sure how reliably often berserkers can ohko at range when warriors don't (I don't think extremely squishy units like sages are that common, either). Rally Strength is one of the better rallies, while axefaire is primarily more useful as a class-changing skill. Assassin should probably go down, though. Edited February 25, 2013 by Constable Reggie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paperblade Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) If you're getting hit enough for Counter to matter you're probably going to die. Strength Rally is awesome but Axefaire is sweet because it lets you 3HKO tankier enemies like GKs and Generals with 1-2 range weapons. Edited February 25, 2013 by Paperblade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Also, frontliners have a harder time using Rallies because they're busy frontlining. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Also, frontliners have a harder time using Rallies because they're busy frontlining. I got Yet Another Bad Idea. Instead of running your paper-for-defenses Dark Flier into danger, why not pick off something, then retreat a little to Rally Movement everyone else so they'll have an easier time keeping up with your flying glass cannon? Speaking of running, I use Tricksters as transport when I can't field fliers because of arrows/wind magic. Tricksters laugh at those (and may Levin Sword them if they get sufficiently annoyed), and they get terrain bonuses and none of the penalties with Acrobat. How this affects the tier list (if it does at all), I'll leave to you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elieson Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Tricksters with ample support and a high Dual Attack rate make for fine bow-resistant transportation. Stick Pass on em and you have a pretty damn nimble bus. That amazing sword locked combat isn't earning any huge medals though. And the need for Trickster transportation isn't exactly a high demand thing. Dodging things is one thing but most if not all of the game is Rout Rout Rout. Unless we are talking about reclassing runs; that's a whole different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy_Dingo Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 As for the argument for astra over lethality: Astra+killing edge= ouch, most likely death Astra+FORGED killing edge=Shit gonna die Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 I got Yet Another Bad Idea. Instead of running your paper-for-defenses Dark Flier into danger, why not pick off something, then retreat a little to Rally Movement everyone else so they'll have an easier time keeping up with your flying glass cannon? Speaking of running, I use Tricksters as transport when I can't field fliers because of arrows/wind magic. Tricksters laugh at those (and may Levin Sword them if they get sufficiently annoyed), and they get terrain bonuses and none of the penalties with Acrobat. How this affects the tier list (if it does at all), I'll leave to you guys. Keeping Pair Up in mind, I'm not sure I see the point. Move to an enemy, have the Dark Flier kill them and activate Galeforce, then have them fly into enemy lines and switch their sturdier ally to the front. You can just repeat this every turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 Keeping Pair Up in mind, I'm not sure I see the point. Move to an enemy, have the Dark Flier kill them and activate Galeforce, then have them fly into enemy lines and switch their sturdier ally to the front. You can just repeat this every turn. I paired Lissa with Gaius, now what? I think it depends on the map, weapons, your pair-up partner's class, etc. There's situations where you do NOT want certain classes around (dodgy sword unit against a bunch of enemies with Swordbreaker as an example); thus, I'd be willing to retreat off of Galeforce and give everyone else a boost. (it's one of the few scenarios I can think of where a Rally skill would be somewhat useful, the other being Rally Spectrum into a lot of things) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sol Hiryu Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 (edited) Before we continue, what's the specific criteria of this list? What difficulty is it? Is it assuming efficient runs? Paralogues/No Paralogues? That aside... Griffon Rider needs to go way up, probably to High or Top. Axe-lock isn't even a problem given that you would be using Axes most of the time in Wyvern Rider anyway, and Deliverer/Lancebreaker is leagues better than Quick Burn/Swordbreaker. +2 move has huge amounts of utility during the story. Cherche also appreciates the extra Skill/Speed the class gives. Great Lord down to top of High. Aether and Rightful King are good, but not great...especially since you can't reclass, rendering Rightful King useless. Swords/Lances are nice, but Chrom and Lucina have to work up from E-rank, not to mention Javelins are really weak, so they might as well be locked to 1-range. Additionally, Chrom is prone to being Speed/Def screwed in Great Lord, which is very dangerous in itself. The caps are nice, but you have to hope the growths don't screw you over. Dark Flier can probably move down, possibly to bottom of Top. Galeforce is amazing, but you only have two characters that can promote into Dark Flier: Sumia and Cordelia. Both of them will have defensive issues forever, and they're not very good at Dark Flier's main drawing point, magic. E tomes + low Mag means they can't really use it to its fullest extent, meaning they might as well keep using lances. Galeforce is still an amazing skill regardless, it's just the effort of getting the characters to that point. Dark Rider down to High. Swords + Tomes sounds nice in theory but it suffers from the same problem Dark Flier does, minus the crippling weaknesses. Additionally, the skills aren't very good; Slow Burn is a really bad skill and Lifetaker isn't really great unless you pair it with Galeforce. The real value in the class is from the defensive bonuses the mages get, as they really appreciate the extra HP and Def growths. Good class, but not really up there with the really broken ones. Swordmaster and Assassin should both be around each other, with Assassin being -maybe- a little higher. Swordmasters are a bit more beefy and their offense is much better with Astra, but they are faced with being locked to Swords. They have almost no 1-2 range options aside from Amatsu, which is only 30 uses. Assuming no DLC, that's the only ranged sword you'll ever get aside from Levin Swords (lol). The worst part is that Lon'qu is the only one who can become a Swordmaster with No Reclass (aside from Say'ri, but she has her own huge issues), and his defenses are typically bad for a Myrmidon/Swordmaster. His offense is almost unparalleled, but he can't sustain multiple Enemy Phases unless he's absurdly lucky with Vantage. Taguel can probably move into low, switching places with Valkyrie. Beastbane is nice, being locked into 1-range isn't. Unless you specifically set it up so every single cavalry unit aggros onto Panne on EP, it's very difficult for her to sustain her growth. Dancer up to Mid. There's no way Olivia can ever be considered a liability unless you're deliberately throwing her into crowds of enemies. Trickster needs to go up, to top of Low if need be. Lucky 7 and Acrobat are incredible skills and it helps Anna's durability and thief utility. Staves are always nice as well. Their offense is not amazing but it's passable. Berserker needs to be taken off the list because no one can become one without reclassing, which violates the No Reclassing rule. Shame, as they're definitely better than Warriors. Edited February 27, 2013 by Sol Hiryu Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laslow3456 Posted April 7, 2019 Share Posted April 7, 2019 It's sad that the bow knight are so low it's a pretty good units able to use bow and sword giving you alot of option with alot more skill then paladin and great knight as you still have a pretty decent movement I think the bow knight is mid-high tier for me with reclassing if you reclass it I said it high to top tier and berserk is way better then the warrior with a higher speed a bit less skill but give him a and axe or a killer axe and get you ass swooped easily I think berserk and bow knight should go up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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