What, an item? (Walhart)

[Samias]

I really feel like turning this into a huge argument right now but I'll try to restrain myself and respect your opinion, even though it seems to be the total opposite of mine in every way possible. I just find someone who is determined to live without gods a lot more interesting than some deranged scumbag who likes to

Kill Ylisse's peace-loving Emmeryns just for the fun of it

But I suppose if you were some sort of religious fanatic you would hate Walhart for being all blasphemous and such. Then again, it doesn't make sense why you'd like Gangrel who is essentially a devil-worshipper.

Edit: Plus Walhart has some great quotes as I keep saying. Find one quote of Gangrel's that goes beyond the scope of "I wanna kill you cuz its fun and I'm evil". And no, the spotpass sidequests don't count IMO because they are just really forced ways of making the characters recruitable that are totally inconsistent with the character's development. Yes, I'll admit that Walhart's spotpass wasn't too spectacular either, but at least the in-game dialogue had you feeling some remorse for fighting him (especially after you find out he could have been an ally) whereas I'm still not seeing how anyone can play the game and feel any emotions towards Gangrel besides just wanting him to die a slow, painful death from the moment you meet him in chapter 5. Then again, there are some weird people out there who just hate the good guys and like the bad guys just for the sake of it.

[spoiler=Gangrel's motivation]

Gangrel hates Ylisse and Emmeryn because Emmeryn's father, the previous exalt, was ruthless and left Plegia in bad shape. There's bad blood between Plegia and Ylisse that Gangrel and Emmeryn can never resolve between each other, even if Emmeryn already was hurt and left scarred from the leftover sentiments towards her predecessor. Even from Gangrel's "death" quote in chapter 11, you see the sad, pathetic man he is who truly hates what he has done but feels like he can't change. He knows he deserves to rot. So while you're free to hate Gangrel, bear in mind this is exactly what he wants people to do. That's why he's such a pain to recruit. He's suicidal. Even Chrom tells Gangrel to join the cause to fight Grima and then bug off and die. Even in his unpaired ending he dies alone and unloved. But if you support him with your Avatar, you give him hope and he regrets all he has done. You might see that as killing the character for the sake of having him around as a bonus character, but even the in-game story hints that his bravado is a facade, and in reality he has no one who cares about him. Out of all the villains in the game, Gangrel has the most complexity and is the only one I ever felt any real emotion for in this game.

[Lakmé]

If I remember well, the FE-Background website hints that Gangrel's mother was murdered either by the Ylissean army or because of how insecure Plegia was left after the war...

EDIT :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dZXUuUoCSXo#t=1588s

Well, it looks like I have a bad memory, it only says that he had a hard childhood... (though I guess that was the average living conditions in Plegia during the war against Ylisse)

Edited March 5, 2013 by Lakmé

[Folt]

If I remember well, the FE-Background website hints that Gangrel's mother was murdered either by the Ylissean army or because of how insecure Plegia was left after the war...

EDIT :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=dZXUuUoCSXo#t=1588s

Well, it looks like I have a bad memory, it only says that he had a hard childhood... (though I guess that was the average living conditions in Plegia during the war against Ylisse)

Given what Gangrel says about Chrom being more like his sister, rather than his father, and what people say about Chrom's father (Lucina even comparing him to Walhart once), I think it isn't a bad stretch to say that Gangrel's early childhood was either caused by, or came as a result of Chrom's father's warmongering against Plegia. Gangrel's initial reasons for trying to start a war, as revealed in his Supports with Male Avatar, kinda make sense that way too: He does not want to see his country under the rule of another "Exalt", which in his eyes would be synonymous with "warmongerer". Ylisse took many things from him, so in his eyes, he can't trust anything that comes from them, yet he realizes that Plegia in its current state would not be able to stand up to Walhart and the Valmese Empire on his own, so he does the only thing he can think of which is to start a war. However, at this point, Gangrel is broken enough that underlying darker desires (namely his hatred for and wanting revenge on the country that left him in this sorry state) make him ripe for rotting away unless plucked (which is not helped by having Aversa as a subordinate). Maybe I'm reading too much into it, but either way, it's somewhat ironic.

That said...

I think Walhart has redeemable qualities as well. Walhart wants to give true freedom to mankind by, in his own words, freeing them from the influence of gods, which is something people can sympathize with, and Walhart clearly believes that he's not above the rules he sets if his supports with Avatar are something of note, nor do I think that he believes that slimeballs like Excellus, or dangerous groups like the Grimleal, should go unwatched. In a way, I think he'd kill or permanently incapacitate Grima if he could, but he'd rather to it on his own terms, not on Naga's terms, or on fate's terms.

So, in a way...

Everyone except the Grimleal is trying to be a hero, but their differing ways and unwillingness to talk about the problems at large, end up with them making bad choices which costs them in the long run (and in the case of Gangrel, forgetting what he wanted to do in the first place in favor of giving into darker desires).

[darkkfan]

You... never read any of Gangrel's supports, didn't you? No, of course you didn't... If you did, you'll know that Gangrel never workshipped Grima. The whole Grima-workshipping thing was Aversa's idea. You'll also know that he is remorseful and that he want to be a better man. Also, from his supports with my Avatar, he seemed a bit more romantic than Walhart. He's also way nicer toward Morgan than Walhart. Other reasons why I like Gangrel more include that I find him funny, I like his design, I think he's kinda cute and I like his voice. But yeah, I'm the kind of weird girl who also have a crazy pirate-clown as her favorite anime character (my picture, Buggy the clown, from One Piece) so I'm not a great reference for what the other girls might think.

As for Walhart, as I stated before, he is an interesting character and he have many great quotes, but his supports with Morgan make him much less likeable, IMO. I still like him, but I wish I wouldn't have read these supports. I would like to forget about them, but I can't.

No, of course I didn't, I killed him in his paralogue. And like I said, if what you say about the supports is true, it is totally contradictory to the character established by the in-game dialogue. And sure, even if the whole being-evil thing wasn't his idea (which I'm not willing to concede), he doesn't have to be so good at it.

[spoiler=Gangrel's motivation]

Gangrel hates Ylisse and Emmeryn because Emmeryn's father, the previous exalt, was ruthless and left Plegia in bad shape. There's bad blood between Plegia and Ylisse that Gangrel and Emmeryn can never resolve between each other, even if Emmeryn already was hurt and left scarred from the leftover sentiments towards her predecessor. Even from Gangrel's "death" quote in chapter 11, you see the sad, pathetic man he is who truly hates what he has done but feels like he can't change. He knows he deserves to rot. So while you're free to hate Gangrel, bear in mind this is exactly what he wants people to do. That's why he's such a pain to recruit. He's suicidal. Even Chrom tells Gangrel to join the cause to fight Grima and then bug off and die. Even in his unpaired ending he dies alone and unloved. But if you support him with your Avatar, you give him hope and he regrets all he has done. You might see that as killing the character for the sake of having him around as a bonus character, but even the in-game story hints that his bravado is a facade, and in reality he has no one who cares about him. Out of all the villains in the game, Gangrel has the most complexity and is the only one I ever felt any real emotion for in this game.

I know the thing about his father and it isn't cutting it for me. If the game makes me wait until after the game to show any signs of redeeming himself, I don't think that counts. I mean, if they don't make me like him in any way at all in-game, I think they've failed at developing Gangrel into a likable villain. Certainly they've failed at this if I hate him so much that I kill him before they make him likable. The game does a great job at making you hate him, so much so that I killed him before I got to see his redemption. I might be alone in thinking this, but I don't think I am. As for the chapter 11 death quote, you got me there. Even so, however, I don't think it's enough of an in-game basis for his supports and paralogue. The whole redemption thing seems to come out of the blue, and in-game I doubt anyone thought of him as anyone more than the character you're meant to hate (of which there seems to be at least one in every FE game and it usually isn't the main antagonist/final boss).

Anyway, that being said, I don't want to derail this topic by further continuing this argument here. Maybe if someone wants to make a Gangrel vs. Walhart thread with a poll, we can do that there, but I don't want to continue to take this off topic unless a mod says it's ok.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Why so Sirius?

[Honestly Vitali]

He's also way nicer toward Morgan than Walhart.

Whoa whoa whoa. Time out.

There's seriously a worse father that Gangrel? Dang.

The last line of his father support was the only halfway decent thing he ever said to his kid.

In his own words (or something like them), "I'll let you know the second I do anything fatherly enough to merit your pride".

[shadykid]

Whoa whoa whoa. Time out.

There's seriously a worse father that Gangrel? Dang.

The last line of his father support was the only halfway decent thing he ever said to his kid.

In his own words (or something like them), "I'll let you know the second I do anything fatherly enough to merit your pride".

it's not even close

let's see....B support: "Perhaps that plan would work if I drove your head through it... "

A support: "I should put a sword in you and be done with it..."

99.99% sure Gangrel doesn't say anything like that

[Folt]

Morgan/Gangrel B Support lines:

Morgan: Father? Do you have a moment?

Gangrel: I can carve a moment from my busy schedule, sure. Bwa ha ha!

Morgan: Perfect! Then let's get started on Project Get Memories of Dad Back! Step one--figure how we're going to trigger some flashbacks. I've already tried banging my head against a post, but nothing. I mean, it made me dizzy and nauseated, but it didn't unearth any hidden memories. What do you think, Father? Perhaps a stone wall would work better?

Gangrel: Hey, I love a bloody head-banging as much as the next guy. ....Probably more so. But it's take it easy on that for a bit. Maybe just try staring at me instead.

Morgan/Walhart B Support lines:

Morgan: Father? Do you have a moment?

Walhart: Only if you vow not to waste my time with insignificant prattle.

Morgan: Perfect! Then let's get started on Project Get Memories of Dad Back! Step one--figure how we're going to trigger some flashbacks. I've already tried banging my head against a post, but nothing. I mean, it made me dizzy and nauseated, but it didn't unearth any hidden memories. What do you think, Father? Perhaps a stone wall would work better?

Walhart: Perhaps that plan would work if I drove your head through it... Or perhaps you could gaze upon your father's noble visage for a while.

Gangrel's not really one of the worse parent supports I've read. Walhart's though make him BEST. FATHER. EVER!

He is also bloody hilarious, unlike BEST. MOTHER. EVER!

Edited March 5, 2013 by Folt

[Gone2Ground]

Gangrel is way too Joker-y for me to like him. Walhart is..um..just odd. I'm not a fan of the bring-back-from-the-dead guys anyway, although I'll give

Emmeryn

a chance to see how they manage to

treat a mentally disabled character in a Video Game for the (Probably wrong) first time since the Autistic kid in one of the Mass Effect DLC's

[shadykid]

Gangrel is way too Joker-y for me to like him. Walhart is..um..just odd. I'm not a fan of the bring-back-from-the-dead guys anyway, although I'll give

Emmeryn

a chance to see how they manage to

treat a mentally disabled character in a Video Game for the (Probably wrong) first time since the Autistic kid in one of the Mass Effect DLC's

well it's going to be "...." half the time

Mute AvatarxEmmeryn OTP

[Wake]

Well... okay. I didn't expect this to get so... debate-y. Personally, I like them both. They have great lines. Nobody kill me, please.

[Honestly Vitali]

Morgan/Gangrel B Support lines:

Morgan: Father? Do you have a moment?

Gangrel: I can carve a moment from my busy schedule, sure. Bwa ha ha!

Morgan: Perfect! Then let's get started on Project Get Memories of Dad Back! Step one--figure how we're going to trigger some flashbacks. I've already tried banging my head against a post, but nothing. I mean, it made me dizzy and nauseated, but it didn't unearth any hidden memories. What do you think, Father? Perhaps a stone wall would work better?

Gangrel: Hey, I love a bloody head-banging as much as the next guy. ....Probably more so. But it's take it easy on that for a bit. Maybe just try staring at me instead.

Morgan/Walhart B Support lines:

Morgan: Father? Do you have a moment?

Walhart: Only if you vow not to waste my time with insignificant prattle.

Morgan: Perfect! Then let's get started on Project Get Memories of Dad Back! Step one--figure how we're going to trigger some flashbacks. I've already tried banging my head against a post, but nothing. I mean, it made me dizzy and nauseated, but it didn't unearth any hidden memories. What do you think, Father? Perhaps a stone wall would work better?

Walhart: Perhaps that plan would work if I drove your head through it... Or perhaps you could gaze upon your father's noble visage for a while.

Gangrel's not really one of the worse parent supports I've read. Walhart's though make him BEST. FATHER. EVER!

He is also bloody hilarious, unlike BEST. MOTHER. EVER!

I dunno, it just strikes me like Walhart's being arrogant and a little short-tempered, like he normally is.

I still think Gangrel is the worse father. Especially his Sparkling Tile conversations...

But let's not start another fight here.

[pichupal]

I haven't worked on Gangrel's section sorry I like Walhart better but here's all of Walhart's support increasing/sparkly text, minus the normal ones. I decided to grab 'em while getting Walhart's supports. He's surprisingly romantic, and I personally think "My star" is a really cheesy nickname, really odd coming from Walhart. The parent/child conversations, he's a lot less strict/cruel/what ever your opinion of his support with Morgan.

Never grabbed Gangrel's, but he seemed a bit less... romantic and nice. Although I don't remember it all that well.

(If someone want's to grab Gangrel's - or anyone else's for that matter, feel free to PM me - I'll find some time to add it to the wiki. They're all fun to read :) ).

[shadykid]

Well... okay. I didn't expect this to get so... debate-y. Personally, I like them both. They have great lines. Nobody kill me, please.

YOU BETTER PICK A SIDE /lolwut

Gangrel's got a great "why you mad bro" face, that is all

[Wake]

YOU BETTER PICK A SIDE /lolwut

Gangrel's got a great "why you mad bro" face, that is all

Fine. My side is... yes. (win)