Balancing Pair Up for future titles?

[Quick]

We could just accept the Pair Up system as a new staple feature of the new generation of fire Emblem...?

I think it's the rest of the game that needed to change to accommodate this new feature better, although I'm, not saying that the Pair Up system is fine as it is. At first I thought I was doing it wrong by using pair up all the time, but it ended up being the best way to clear battles. The Dual Strike and Dual Guard add much more luck/RNG based combat then before. Personally, I like that but i can also see how it can be frustrating. But i treat it as a bonus that could happen, like a 1% crit and don't ever rely on it (unless it's a high chance, like with Chrom's Dual Strike+).

Besides, the bigger elephants in the room were things like Galeforce or Nosferatu that made taking advantage of Pair Up much more prominent.

It's a gimmick for the series, just like BEXP in the Tellius series, or the capture system in Thracia 776. It won't be a staple.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Quick

[Sublime Manic]

It's a gimmick for the series, just like BEXP in the Tellius series, or the capture system in Thracia 776. It won't be a staple.

Thracia 776 also introduced fog of war and sidequests, which appear in plenty of entries since. It's rather early to write off pairing up as a one-time gimmick.

[Crimson Red]

I think having enemies with more development/depth and then having them pair up would be good. For instance, imagine an FE7 remake where Lloyd/Linus could pair-up against you and had the AI to use it effectively. That would be challenging, but fun. Maybe on certain maps enemies wouldn't pair up but on other maps they would, depending on the story (e.g. Risen don't have that idea of "bonds" so they'd probably never pair-up). The ability would be more AI-controlled and not just happen all the time (whereas players tend to just pair-up everyone all the time, especially when it's not a harder mode, because it's only really on harder modes that actually SEPARATING units has its own value because quantity > quality sometimes).

I think the bonuses are okay as they are, they start off small and increase accordingly and its fine. The game is still very challenging and it only gets out of hand with grinding or the such, IMO. Adding enemy pair-ups would add a sense of challenge and make it feel less like the player has a HUGE advantage over the enemy.

I would say "enemies should have higher stats or better weapons to compensate" except on higher difficulties they do so I'm not sure how great of a point that would be lol, at the same time you have to realize that normal mode can be a bit of a push-over because it's the easiest mode and they don't want to turn people off by making the game too difficult (or by inventing an "Easy" mode which may insult the player >_>').

[Bearemy]

Pair Up unlikable? Sure. That's just your opinion, though. You can't assume the mechanic is a one-time gimmick either because there isn't even a future game to compare it to.

[Crimson Red]

^Yeah I feel like there's some sort of reasoning for why certain games did or didn't have certain features but regardless the pair up feature is definitely very popular and used and I think they'd be hurting themselves by taking a step backward, they executed well the first time IMO, now they just need to tweak it a little, I'd be more surprised if they got it 100% perfect the first time and didn't make it too weak, too OP, too whatever, but they did a good enough job that most people like it and aren't complaining from what I see inb4"personalexperiencemeansnothing"

[Paperblade]

Remove/nerf Dual Guard, it's basically caps enemy hit at like 70-75 real. This is pretty non-negotiable imo, since if we let enemies pair up with this intact it just makes things a shitty RNG fest.

Nerf the stat gains, I should not be taking single digit damage in Ch. 20 Lunatic. Alternatively, let enemies pair up. Although Dual Striking enemies is probably BS

Edited March 4, 2013 by Paperblade

[Quick]

Thracia 776 also introduced fog of war and sidequests, which appear in plenty of entries since. It's rather early to write off pairing up as a one-time gimmick.

That didn't CHANGE the gameplay in its entirety, fog of war and sidequests were meant to enhance it, not change it. Which is what the double system doesn't do, it changes it entirely and in my opinion that shouldn't matter for the worse.

[MajorMajora]

I think the right way to balance it is to have, on normal difficulty, have some bosses pair up, and have common enemies pair up on hard mode and higher.

[Nomkin]

For pair up you would think that they should take the lowest movement between the two... considering a knight moving at the same speed as a Dark Flier seems a bit off... As for removing it outright, I wouldn't say that, for support it actually makes it better, due to the dual system only allows you to have one stat booster as opposed to previous ones where you had actually more support stacking if you played it right, 5 level of support max compared to 4 levels maxed. From a game-play mechanic standpoint all pair up allows is the ability to move units rather quickly through the game, and the designers clearly knew that intention of the game, as you can see in lunatic modes.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Nomkin

[Othin]

There's always room for improvement, but I'd be very surprised and disappointed if Pair Up was removed or severely nerfed in future games.

But yes, the Dual abilities could use some work.

[Airship Canon]

I doubt enemies of Strongest One's Name strength would be around if they had Pair Up, honestly.

There are certainly counterpoints to it (like SON) but that IS the simplest way to balance the thing.

And you've also got cases like CoY3, where it'd make sense to face Paired Enemies.

I'd say-- only occasionally would you see Normal Enemies with it...

Except on Higher Difficulties, where that becomes the Norm.

Bosses would use it more often.

DLC Chapters-- it'd be common place on all difficulties.

Streetpass Squads- Pair Up is the Norm, and Support Actions are in.

[Quick]

There's always room for improvement, but I'd be very surprised and disappointed if Pair Up was removed or severely nerfed in future games.

But yes, the Dual abilities could use some work.

I think it will be exclusively to the games based off of Awakening's timeline specifically, it wouldn't make sense for the Tellius series and other series and would change Fire Emblem completely.

It only needs tweaks and the system wouldn't be so broken, but realistically it's not going to be in every future FE game. Even though I actually would like to see it for the sequel/prequel/sidequest/whatever of Awakening after those tweaks.

Edited March 4, 2013 by Quick

[Othin]

That's like saying the weapon triangle and weapon ranks and non-Seize objectives wouldn't make sense outside the Jugdral games, or at least not in Archanea/Valencia games.

[Quick]

That's like saying the weapon triangle and weapon ranks and non-Seize objectives wouldn't make sense outside the Jugdral games, or at least not in Archanea/Valencia games.

I see your point, those all would just work in all FE games, and it basically replaces many staple features of FE, such as Rescuing, also featured in FE4. I could explain it further but honestly rather do it in PM if you actually want to continue and I think I should just let people enjoy this game. As if it was bad I wouldn't still be playing it, haha. I have my doubts though, but I'm not IS, am I?

Edited March 5, 2013 by Quick

[monkymeet]

Considering how it rocketed the franchise to main stage with the reviews, it might stick around for a while. It's been pretty well received by most.

Calling it "unlikable" is, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

[arvilino]

I'd think it's a mechanic that should stay. Even if they stripped away the bonuses it applied or even had it half SPD/SKL like Rescue did it would be a more useful mechanic(for all unit types) in terms of the sort of movements and positioning you can pull off without requiring mounted units and re-move/canto on mounted units.

In terms of enemies using it they'd have to make a lot of considerations into the mechanic, as it stands Dual Guard alone would make the outcome of combat less reliable than Thracia 776 as hit would restricted by the Dual Guard rates, as you could never have a guaranteed hit on a paired up target.

Maybe a more limited version(like they will dual attack but only in 1 round of combat per turn and they won't Dual Guard[if they even keep the feature in]) since the fact there's still a second unit to defeat after the main unit would be challenge enough.

[Gryz]

Eh, I am not a big fan of Pair Up. At the very least, I want the Pair Up stat bonuses to go away. I'd rather not have generic enemies be able to use Pair Up.

[Renall]

Dual Guard should not block all damage. It should just be a reduction, perhaps based on the DEF/RES stat of the intercepting unit, or else some portion of the blocked damage should be taken by the partner (although for simplicity I'd just prefer it reduce the damage taken by the main character). It's mind-bogglingly idiotic that Sumia can push Kellam out of the way of an arrow, eat it with her pegasus, and neither of them takes any damage... when that same arrow would instantly kill her if she were the one out front.

[Zarb]

I think the enemy should get it. Make the game a LOT more fun.

[Crimson Red]

not sure if this has been mentioned

but dual-attack can happen even when it's totally unrealistic (hi walls/fighting in the sky)

I think they should go for a little more realism and it'll inadvertently balance it/nerf it a bit XP

[Zarb]

not sure if this has been mentioned

but dual-attack can happen even when it's totally unrealistic (hi walls/fighting in the sky)

I think they should go for a little more realism and it'll inadvertently balance it/nerf it a bit XP

If I can shoot an arrow through a wall, my partner can attack with an axe through a wall.

[Renall]

not sure if this has been mentioned

but dual-attack can happen even when it's totally unrealistic (hi walls/fighting in the sky)

I think they should go for a little more realism and it'll inadvertently balance it/nerf it a bit XP

Perhaps tying it to range would be somewhat useful. It's a bit silly that Virion can shoot at 1-range but not on his own turn, or that Chrom can use the Falchion against an enemy someone has to hit with a Hand Axe. Then again, maybe that's a way Archers could be buffed, let them Dual Attack at any range (and I do mean any range; let them support siege tomes even) while others are restricted to the range of the weapon they're currently using. Attacking with a tome at 2-range while your buddy doesn't have a Javelin? No go. Using a Longbow? Better have another Archer backing you up.