Devil Weaponry

[Klokinator]

I'm interested in getting some opinions on altering devil weaponry. I always liked the Devil Axe in FE7, it gives great WEXP and it has plenty of power when you're in a pinch, but overall it's heavy and seems a bit... useless. I recently started playing FE7if and while extreeeemely hard, I loved the rebalance they made for the Devil weapons. The balances go like this:

Uses: 40

WGT: 40

MGT: 20

HIT: 105

CRIT: 25

RANK: D

WEXP: 12ish?

Now, I like this balance. I'm debating using the same exact stats for my own projects but I do want opinions. One other balance I want to implement is that instead of 31% - LUK = Backfire chance, I want it to be 41% - LUK = Backfire chance, so that even a character with 30 LUK has an 11% chance of the devil effect activating. With the 40 WGT, it's impossible to double with it, and the high hit and crit chance seems OP until you realize that critting often results in a devil effect which could kill you.

So yeah, opinions?

[Excellen Browning]

I'd never use the thing without RNG abuse.

[Shadow Mir]

I'd consider it just as useful (read: useless) as any other Devil weapon.

[Chocolate Kitty]

People actually use Devil weapons?

[Espinosa]

The main motivation for using Devil Axe in the GBA games (namely in FE8, though you haven't got much time there) is to build up axe rank. Does Gerik or Eir!Duessel want to wield Garm in efficiency settings? Then you'll play around with it, and both Duessel and Gerik can afford hitting themselves with the axe once if that occurs.

In FE SD LTC, the Devil Axe warrants a turn wasted for visiting its village so that Barst has an excellent early way of dealing very destructive damage to enemies. In FE 3DS, Devil Sword allows Marth to pick up kills more easily while heading to the throne, though with arena and the crazy exp gain in the game it shouldn't be a problem for Marth to cap his level for Medeus.

You don't want devil weaponry to backfire you, but you may suffer just as much from a killer weapon enemy proc or whiffing all of your trusted chip. Backfiring isn't the only thing that can go wrong, and you don't have to be stubborn and can just admit that devil weaponry has its uses.

[PresidentEden]

The main issue I see is that a Wt of 40 means that almost everything will double attack you instead of simply keeping you from double attacking. I would rather use a Killer Axe and double attack with a higher Crt rate.

[Klokinator]

In FE7if, I do indeed tend to RNG abuse with it a lot, but against incredibly hard enemies (Bishops have like 100+ health and 15 defense and 29 res, while bosses have around 150 HP with nearly max DEF and RES stats so using hawkeye or dorcas makes sense) it's pretty much the only option, aside from abusing Legault as an assassin for OHKO's. If anyone has an alternative rebalance for them, I'd be cool with that too provided there's a good explanation for the rebalance.

The main issue I see is that a Wt of 40 means that almost everything will double attack you instead of simply keeping you from double attacking. I would rather use a Killer Axe and double attack with a higher Crt rate.

However, with a crit you can kill pretty much anything in one hit and it never misses with 105 accuracy so even a normal blow can finish off an enemy in one hit. /provided it doesn't attack you instead/

Aspinosa gave a solid explanation of it's purpose.

[dondon151]

i was trying to get cam to ASM me a new devil effect for my hack but i don't think either of us has worked on it in awhile

if you're curious what it does, it was supposed to drain either 20% or a fixed amount (didn't determine which yet, i was thinking ~10 HP) of a unit's HP after every round of combat with a devil weapon equipped. the weapons themselves had low WT, high hit, 0 crit, and high MT.

Edited March 5, 2013 by dondon151

[Klokinator]

What sort of devil effect were you thinking of? 1/2 damage if it reverses?

[darkkfan]

The main motivation for using Devil Axe in the GBA games (namely in FE8, though you haven't got much time there) is to build up axe rank.

I'd say a similar thing applies in FE12 where devil weapons (particularly the devil sword) are great because of their E rank they help reclassed units with a sword promotion (of which there will be a lot since Horseman and Swordmasters are some of the best units on the harder difficulties) build up sword rank. Also, the damage they provide isn't outclassed until you get the brave/legendary weapons which is way after you get your first devil sword. Lastly, the backfire effect isn't really that bad in that game, especially if you're using savestates.

[dondon151]

I'd say a similar thing applies in FE12 where devil weapons (particularly the devil sword) are great because of their E rank they help reclassed units with a sword promotion (of which there will be a lot since Horseman and Swordmasters are some of the best units on the harder difficulties) build up sword rank. Also, the damage they provide isn't outclassed until you get the brave/legendary weapons which is way after you get your first devil sword. Lastly, the backfire effect isn't really that bad in that game, especially if you're using savestates.

1. devil weapons are D rank in FE11 and 12

2. no shit, backfiring isn't a problem if you just RNG abuse. killer weapons always critical too!

the point behind my proposed implementation was so that devil recoil is entirely predictable and can be strategized around. at the same time it gives units a useful situational tool.

Edited March 5, 2013 by dondon151

[darkkfan]

1. devil weapons are D rank in FE11 and 12

2. no shit, backfiring isn't a problem if you just RNG abuse. killer weapons always critical too!

the point behind my proposed implementation was so that devil recoil is entirely predictable and can be strategized around. at the same time it gives units a useful situational tool.

1. Sorry, that's what I was thinking of. It still applies though.

2. Yeah, I knew someone would say that! I'm pretty sure the backfire rate is lower anyway though, but I may be wrong about that.

[Tamanoir]

Well, they will be far more efficient if they just reduced your HP to 1 instead of killing you.

That would make it at least useable for Player phase, since you can heal your charcter after being hurt.

That, or add a Casual Mode.

dondon's idea is also pretty interresting.

Another thing you could do is the same as Cursed equipement in RPG (Dragon quest notably). Makes it stop you for attacking.

And instead of high WT, makes it half your Speed and/or Skill.

Just do anything as far as it doesn't randomly kill you. It end up rotting in storage, because the risk far outweight the advantage. You can give it O WT, 30 MT 50 CRT and 255 HIT, I'll still won't use it if I will ending up dying at the worst moment. Swavestates help, but if you have to abuse savestate in order to make it usefull, you're doing something wrong...

So, my poinnt is : do anything to nerf the user, as soon as it doesn't randomly kill you. (The random part is quite important. You can't know when it will happens, so you can't plan accordingly. A HP reduction will ending up killing you, but at least, you can makes a strategy around it)

Besides, doesn't 40 WTalso reduces accuracy ? It doesn't make it as accurate in this case...

[Espinosa]

I'd say a similar thing applies in FE12 where devil weapons (particularly the devil sword) are great because of their E rank they help reclassed units with a sword promotion (of which there will be a lot since Horseman and Swordmasters are some of the best units on the harder difficulties) build up sword rank. Also, the damage they provide isn't outclassed until you get the brave/legendary weapons which is way after you get your first devil sword. Lastly, the backfire effect isn't really that bad in that game, especially if you're using savestates.

SMs have insta C rank swords so they don't really need a D sword to help them build up weapon rank. I believe all weapons give the same wexp in the DS games anyway.

Marth has very high luck in FE12; yet another reason to have him wield the Devil Sword.

[Klokinator]

Besides, doesn't 40 WTalso reduces accuracy ? It doesn't make it as accurate in this case...

No, it only reduces AS. Accuracy is not a part of the equation. In any case, you've got a weapon with 105 Hitrate so missing isn't an issue. It's the most accurate of all the axes at that point.

[darkkfan]

SMs have insta C rank swords so they don't really need a D sword to help them build up weapon rank. I believe all weapons give the same wexp in the DS games anyway.

Marth has very high luck in FE12; yet another reason to have him wield the Devil Sword.

I was talking about netting potential sword users netting some WEXP before promotion, not after it. Although it does apply more to Horsemen, which happen to be my favorite class.

And yeah, it is useful to give Marth a few kills here and there.

[PresidentEden]

In FE7if, I do indeed tend to RNG abuse with it a lot, but against incredibly hard enemies (Bishops have like 100+ health and 15 defense and 29 res, while bosses have around 150 HP with nearly max DEF and RES stats so using hawkeye or dorcas makes sense) it's pretty much the only option, aside from abusing Legault as an assassin for OHKO's. If anyone has an alternative rebalance for them, I'd be cool with that too provided there's a good explanation for the rebalance.

However, with a crit you can kill pretty much anything in one hit and it never misses with 105 accuracy so even a normal blow can finish off an enemy in one hit. /provided it doesn't attack you instead/

Aspinosa gave a solid explanation of it's purpose.

Wait, what is this about 100+ HP and sky-high defenses?

And you're missing the point. The opportunity cost of using the Devil Axe is not using the Killer Axe, which is undoubtedly a superior weapon. I'd never use this Devil Axe because I can boost the Axe rank to C relatively quickly with Steel Axes and then use Killer Axes the rest of the way instead of taking a 20-30% chance of OHKOing myself with the Devil Axe. You're talking about it being a way to boost the weapon ranks, but the odds are just too high that you won't kill yourself in the process without abusing the RNG (in which case I may as well simply use the Steel -> Killer route and spam critical hits to high heaven).

[Gryz]

There's also the availability factor. If the Devil Axe is given out before the Killer Axe, then there's a time period where the Killer Axe being superior is kind of moot.

I really like dondon's idea for a non-random HP-draining effect. It removes the main reason why people avoid the weapon while still staying true to the curse theme.

[Klokinator]

if you're curious what it does, it was supposed to drain either 20% or a fixed amount (didn't determine which yet, i was thinking ~10 HP) of a unit's HP after every round of combat with a devil weapon equipped. the weapons themselves had low WT, high hit, 0 crit, and high MT.

...

Yeah, I'll be implementing this instead. Bloody brilliant idea dondon. I'll actually make it 20% but no lower than 1 HP. This way even if the enemy somehow keeps missing, you won't kill yourself on an enemy round by swinging your axe, only if the enemy delivers the fatal blow.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Klok

[dondon151]

well, you should think twice before using a devil weapon on enemy phase leaving the user at minimum 1 HP means that the user will survive an extra round of combat if you apply the HP penalty during or after the attack.

as it is, my version of devil weapons has fantastic weapon parameters, so there needs to be a strong disincentive to their use. your call, though.

Edited March 5, 2013 by dondon151

[Klokinator]

With 40 WGT, there's a huge AS and therefore AVO loss, so even if the weapon no longer kills them, I think having halved AVO (Actually most axe users have terrible AVO and DEF/RES anyway herp) would be good call to never use the weapon on enemy phase as pretty much any enemy attack will kill ya.

Edited March 6, 2013 by Klok

[Djeets]

this kind of weapons better be used as " boss finishers" i guess... (40 weight as HUGE cooldown, 20 might of risk of being rebounced, makes me think this)

[mewyeon]

I know RNG's evilness too well to actually use it. I just sell it once I get it.