FE: Awakening Hard Mode Tier List

[MercuryHg34]

The rules of this tier list explicitly prohibit items obtained by event tiles/barracks. While it's an amusing idea, it doesn't fit in this criteria.

Oh right, totally forgot. I guess the next best alternative is to forge a Bronze weapon for more money and name it the "Not as cool as the Decimator but just as effective". Still practical in my experience.

[Legault!]

I think he means that you're using Nosferatanking as an overarching strategy for all maps rather than just "oh hey, this would be the perfect time and place to have a Nostank, I'mma throw my nostank there. Yay results".

You can definitely use Nosferatanking as an overarching strategy, especially with Avatar, but that's not what I'm going for here. Considering how many maps are rout-enemy and considering that the majority of kill boss missions are trivially easy, Nosferatu naturally offers itself as a highly reliable and strategy-free option for free completions. It is by no means the only strategy in the game nor should it be considered exclusively.

[OrangeCrush980]

You get a few joke items at the end of Paralogue 3 if you keep the potheads alive.

[Redwall]

The rules of this tier list explicitly prohibit items obtained by event tiles/barracks. While it's an amusing idea, it doesn't fit in this criteria.

Actually, a Ladle can be obtained from Paralogue 3 if all three villagers are saved. A +5 Mt Ladle is the most cost-effective starting weapon for Panne if you're not willing to use an Arms Scroll on her.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Redwall

[Interceptor]

I think he means that you're using Nosferatanking as an overarching strategy for all maps rather than just "oh hey, this would be the perfect time and place to have a Nostank, I'mma throw my nostank there. Yay results".

Sort of. I'm referring more to very narrow uses of character-specific maneuvers; i.e. if we place this specific person in a certain spot with a particular weapon, we can save a turn on ChapterX, and use this as a lever to make an argument for someone. Those sorts of things are irritating, because they limit the set of strategic choices. That's the primary difference between an LTC run (which relies heavily on things like this), and more general tier list ranking (which does not).

[Legault!]

Nosferatanking seems very unspecific. Buy up Nosferatu tomes -> take a few moderate steps to increase Tharja's hit (she already gets +10 from pairing up, not to mention Hex and Anathema) -> end turn. It can be used anywhere on the map with equal results. Compare this to, say, Panne: level up to 10 -> reclass into Wyvern -> get forged lade or bronze axe -> finally have a good unit.

Although I assume I'm continuing to not understand what Interceptor means.

[Lord Raven]

Hate to pick your point apart, since I'm not entirely following the argument, but I have shown that her hit isn't necessarily the problem either

[Interceptor]

Nosferatanking seems very unspecific.

That's correct. It's a general style of play that you may employ for certain characters that can use it. It may or not be advantageous.

The point of a "brisk play" directive is to properly frame the value of turn counts. Things that generally allow us to play faster/safer are better, that's why we care about turns. But we're not specifically measuring turns, we're measuring the effect of trying to minimize them. That's actually a distinction with a difference.

Compare this to, say, Panne: level up to 10 -> reclass into Wyvern -> get forged lade or bronze axe -> finally have a good unit.

This is not really a problem, since we're talking about resource distribution, here. Panne can do whatever she wants, as long as we are properly accounting for the opportunity cost.

[RNG Princess]

Forging a bronze axe isn't costly. Getting it the same Mt as an iron axe costs 1200G. So sell Panne's beaststone to get it cheaper for her. She won't need her beasttone and it gets you 500G at 25 uses left at the merchants. Or give her an arms scroll.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Maiden_of_Emblem

[Titamon]

Forging a bronze axe isn't costly. Getting it the same Mt as an iron axe costs 1200G. So sell Panne's beaststone to get it cheaper for her. She won't need her beasttone and it gets you 500G at 25 uses left at the merchants. Or give her an arms scroll.

I like to have my units fight their way to D rank naturally (only 15 swings to D), then slap on an arms scroll, and boom! instant C! This is much quicker from by experience.

[eclipse]

Actually, a Ladle can be obtained from Paralogue 3 if all three villagers are saved. A +5 Mt Ladle is the most cost-effective starting weapon for Panne if you're not willing to use an Arms Scroll on her.

Derp. I have problems keeping them alive, so maybe that's why I never saw it.

[grandjackal]

Derp. I have problems keeping them alive, so maybe that's why I never saw it.

Yeah, of all things it's the Ladle that is rewarded ultimately for all 3 surviving.

Not the Seraph Robe....The Ladle.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

The following changes have been applied to the tier list:

- Panne > Frederick, top of S Tier

- Tharja up, to top of B Tier

- Nowi up to B Tier, below Cherche

- Libra moved above Lucina (Others)

- Tiki down to top of C

- Olivia & Henry moved from top of D Tier to bottom of C Tier

- Donnel & Ricken moved from F Tier to D Tier, below Virion and above Basilio / Flavia

Cheers, everyone. Some other food for thought:

- Pegasus placement

- Gregor > Cherche?

[PKL]

Virion can one-shot fliers. Ricken can't do anything.

Virion is cool. Not sure why he's so low.

Tsk tsk tsk. Just went through Hard mode to once again confirm what I had said. Base Ricken can one shot fliers in Chapter 7 with either:

Miriel pair up + Magic Tonic

Elwind +2MT forge

Elwind +1MT forge + Magic Tonic

Virion would need a more buffed Iron Bow forge to accomplish the same and he cant even counter them...so...???.

Also, Donnel is trash. Just went through his Paralogue in 4 turns and couldnt recruit him in time. He costs turns to recruit, is a trash unit that is locked to E lances for a good while, he needs a very contested Second Seal, a pair up partner that could be used elsewhere and training for a loooong time, only to have a E swords by the time you reclass him. Yeah...no

[Lord Raven]

looks like this thread is the Trollbait Express ©

[grandjackal]

Well this topic was riding the angry train all last night, so...

Anyways, SDS brought up the placement of the pegasi, and I feel Cordelia should move down to...below Tharja, maybe even as low as below Libra. Reason being that her bases aren't really all that fantastic (namely her base speed isn't really all that great by the time she arrives). Sumia could be leagues better by her arrival, along with having an outstanding support in some form to be even better, who has also been contributing quite nicely to chapters before. Cordelia just being right next to her seems insulting.

She fits well in B tier anyways, as it's filled with units that are good but have a pretty big issue be it at their start or later on, similar to her. I feel Cordelia's overall issues are finding a good support that lets her get ahead, as otherwise she is just forever bland. Reason I could see her above or below Tharja is because in the least she can just cheap out and be a secondary utility in that she flies an asskicker to spots they couldn't get to normally, and the reason I could see her as low as Libra is because I don't feel Cordelia ever gets super strong in any relevant time.

But yeah, to the point, I don't see Cordelia deserving A tier.

[Constable Reggie]

Wasn't there talk about moving Frederick down more? He's not nearly as crucial in hard as he is in lunatic. How well do we value his early/midgame compared to his extremely mediocre lategame?

The only response was this:

Frederick does slow down, but he never stops giving good pair up bonuses (+4 str, +1 skl, +1 spe, +4 def, +1 move at base is really good), and you can drop him around the time you get kid characters and swap out his pair up with his kid's.

And as I've said before, this is not worthy of high S tier.

Edited March 25, 2013 by Constable Reggie

[Interceptor]

Well this topic was riding the angry train all last night, so...

Anyways, SDS brought up the placement of the pegasi, and I feel Cordelia should move down to...below Tharja, maybe even as low as below Libra. Reason being that her bases aren't really all that fantastic (namely her base speed isn't really all that great by the time she arrives). Sumia could be leagues better by her arrival, along with having an outstanding support in some form to be even better, who has also been contributing quite nicely to chapters before. Cordelia just being right next to her seems insulting.

She fits well in B tier anyways, as it's filled with units that are good but have a pretty big issue be it at their start or later on, similar to her. I feel Cordelia's overall issues are finding a good support that lets her get ahead, as otherwise she is just forever bland. Reason I could see her above or below Tharja is because in the least she can just cheap out and be a secondary utility in that she flies an asskicker to spots they couldn't get to normally, and the reason I could see her as low as Libra is because I don't feel Cordelia ever gets super strong in any relevant time.

But yeah, to the point, I don't see Cordelia deserving A tier.

Sumia has a couple of niggling issues, such that I like Cordelia better.

Cordelia has better S-rank support options. Sumia is in the somewhat-awkward Chrom/Fred/Gaius/Henry + Avatar bucket, whereas Cordelia trades Chrom from that list for nine other people, including such badasses as Lon'qu and Vaike. There is also no denying that Cordelia is a better combatant in the long-term; she is much stronger than Sumia when it comes to fighting things and killing them. Sumia also has basically worthless reclass options, while we're in the neighborhood, of Knight and Cleric (compared to Merc and Dark Mage). Cordelia shows up with C Lances and is basically Good to Go™ once she picks out her future husband.

So for me, it comes down to the value of availability, honestly.

[grandjackal]

Sumia has a couple of niggling issues, such that I like Cordelia better.

Cordelia has better S-rank support options. Sumia is in the somewhat-awkward Chrom/Fred/Gaius/Henry + Avatar bucket, whereas Cordelia trades Chrom from that list for nine other people, including such badasses as Lon'qu and Vaike. There is also no denying that Cordelia is a better combatant in the long-term; she is much stronger than Sumia when it comes to fighting things and killing them. Sumia also has basically worthless reclass options, while we're in the neighborhood, of Knight and Cleric (compared to Merc and Dark Mage). Cordelia shows up with C Lances and is basically Good to Go™ once she picks out her future husband.

So for me, it comes down to the value of availability, honestly.

Well I know you of all people are hard to convince otherwise, because you do have some points, but if I may at least try to shine some light on some thoughts...

First off, the choice of mates. Tell me Fred doesn't want Sumia and I would laugh. The support option list almost doesn't matter, because Fred doesn't want anyone else anyways. They make a golden combo in combat, and I would like to hear if you think otherwise for some miraculous reason. Chrom is also a great combo, because he tends to be pretty badass when flown everywhere, and comes in great handiness in chapters like 5 where there are cliffs and a lot of wyverns waiting to run themselves into Falchion. On Cordelia's side, she supports badasses which is true, but these badasses don't want her. Vaike's speed issues aren't fixed by her to which she doesn't really give him anything, and Lonqu doesn't want even more speed. Lonqu would much prefer Cherche.

As for reclassng, why would you ever reclass either of them? Merc and Dark Mage are hardly better if you don't want to be them in the first place (PS: E swords is not fun).

[Legault!]

I think we need to have a Tharja / Stahl debate.

[Lord Raven]

Clearly if you think we should have it then go ahead and state your case and others will chime in.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I think we need to have a Tharja / Stahl debate.

I know you have this unavoidable urge to say dumb things in this thread because you have a boner for hot mage girls with a ~grimdark~ streak, but can it wait for the actually constructive debate about pegasus placement to conclude?

Also as Raven said, some evidence and maybe a jumping-off point would be nice.

[Samias]

Sumia x Fred dominate all the way to at least the Valm arc before losing any sort of steam. Sumia loves the durability and movement out of Fred, and Fred loves Sumia's speed. She's going to be one of your first units to consistently one-round enemies, with offense that frequently outstripes even Fred simply because she can double. Limited supports or not, she really just wants Fred but she can insta-S with Chrom if she so desires later on. I honestly think she should be the top of A for at least having the best early game contributions outside of Fred before her poor durability catches up with her, and even after that she's still a strong striking unit who still has a decent enemy phase against enemies like swordmasters and enemy magic users (barring Rexcalibur) with her overkill speed. If she goes falcoknight she can be an additional rescue user, and gets Lancefaire to basically guarantee some good offense. Or she can go dark peg and eventually get Galeforce and have an excellent player phase that covers a lot of ground. Cordelia, on the other hand, does a grand total of 2 damage to the wyverns on her join map with a javelin and doesn't want to engage in direct combat using her steel lance. It's a pretty crummy start though she ends up better than Sumia over time. Personally I think Cordelia is fine in her current tier but Sumia should move up a little.

[Redwall]

Can't see Cordelia moving down much, if at all. Instant C in Lances means that she can use the Paralogue 1 Killer Lance off the bat, and that by the time the Killer Lance breaks, she'll probably be wielding the Silver Lance. Combined with her 60% Str and Spd growths, having wings and 8 Mov means that she's a competent lead combat unit. Sumia needs seven levels on average to match Cordelia's strength, and although it's likely that Sumia will have gotten to A support or better with Fred by Cordelia's join time (for an extra +2 Str during Pair Up), Cordelia's join time coincides with a pretty easy section of the game that is useful for building supports. Cordelia's respectable Def growth (45%) gives her good opportunities to use enemy phase for large EXP gains; for example, in Ch 14, whether you're playing Hard or Lunatic you can give her a Beast Killer and park her in the center-top portion of the map to rack up multiple Peg Knight KOs in a single enemy phase. And although some of the B-tier characters are also capable of such productive enemy phases, they're generally not going to have comparable Spd and movement, nor will they generally have an easy time dealing with Valkyries, which Cordelia can OHKO with a forge.

With a Kellam Pair Up for Cordelia, Severa can make a mean Rallybot with both Rally Speed and Rally Defense.

Edited March 26, 2013 by Redwall

[Florete]

Also, Donnel is trash. Just went through his Paralogue in 4 turns and couldnt recruit him in time. He costs turns to recruit, is a trash unit that is locked to E lances for a good while, he needs a very contested Second Seal, a pair up partner that could be used elsewhere and training for a loooong time, only to have a E swords by the time you reclass him. Yeah...no

The OP doesn't specify, but typically, the cost to recruit a character isn't counted against them, so Donnel basically has a free level. Everything else you said has been taken into account already, but:

a pair up partner that could be used elsewhere

I'd just like to point this out as the single most retarded argument you've tried to make against Donnel. No, really, if you honestly think this was a good argument, (and trying to be as inoffensive as possible here) drop the Donnel argument before you hurt yourself.

And as I've said before, this is not worthy of high S tier.

I can agree with this.

Well I know you of all people are hard to convince otherwise, because you do have some points, but if I may at least try to shine some light on some thoughts...

First off, the choice of mates. Tell me Fred doesn't want Sumia and I would laugh. The support option list almost doesn't matter, because Fred doesn't want anyone else anyways. They make a golden combo in combat, and I would like to hear if you think otherwise for some miraculous reason. Chrom is also a great combo, because he tends to be pretty badass when flown everywhere, and comes in great handiness in chapters like 5 where there are cliffs and a lot of wyverns waiting to run themselves into Falchion. On Cordelia's side, she supports badasses which is true, but these badasses don't want her. Vaike's speed issues aren't fixed by her to which she doesn't really give him anything, and Lonqu doesn't want even more speed. Lonqu would much prefer Cherche.

As for reclassng, why would you ever reclass either of them? Merc and Dark Mage are hardly better if you don't want to be them in the first place (PS: E swords is not fun).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't support bonuses based on class? So...wouldn't Cordelia give Fred the exact same bonuses as Sumia? Only difference is that Cordelia wins statistically in all the important places and has outright better re-classing options. Chrom is the only real advantage she has, and that's notable, but he's better off with Sully or Avatar, both of whom beat Sumia in both stats and availability. Hell, if flight is so important, both have access to that as well. Oh, but is having Chrom really even such an advantage when Cordelia has nine potential partners Sumia doesn't?

Cordelia > Sumia should be obvious, to be honest. Sumia's around for longer, but Cordelia crushes her otherwise.